Mini 833 - Empire at War(The game is over?)

[xRECKONERx]

How am I lying, again? Calling me a liar/someone who mischaracterizes without any concrete proof is pretty blatantly hypocritical. So is the fact that you were just going after zwet, and as soon as you realized you had nothing concrete on him, you jumped right onto the next person who came after you.

[Kreriov]

@Reckoner - Again, not true. Zwet pushed the Santos wagon. I have shown that and said it many times. You continue to ignore that and lie when you say I have nothing on him. You also lie when I say I jump on you simply because you were the next to come after me. You were the FIRST to come after me. Back then you completely failed to realize that everything I said followed the ongoing conversation and instead tried to take things I said out of context and twist them in trying to say I had done something scummy. NOW you try to take my belief that it would be worth our while to look at the Santos wagon and contrast it with my suspicion of you to say I am being wishy-washy. Again, NOT TRUE. I still think it is worth looking at Santos wagon. I think in addition to you, MacavityLock and possibly Zwet are scum. It is your actions and statements since I pointed out how easily people excused their vote on Santos that make me suspect you. As is typical in most games I have played I find scum in who attacks me. You have misrepresented and mischaracterized things I have said and done. There are two possible reasons for this. You are either a misquided and overzealous townie or scum. After your first, failed, attempt to frame me, I thought the former. Now it is patently obvious you are actually scum. Fortunately your first attempt raised my suspicions enough that I was watching you.

[xRECKONERx]

But

everyone

was pretty much pushing the Santos wagon. Well, except for me and you and Sajin (but Sajin didn't really push anything). I guess that's where I miss the disconnect. When we had six people on the Santos wagon who were obviously pushing for his lynch, what makes zwet stand out anymore than anyone else?

And you can say that I'm trying to paint a picture that isn't true, but I'm not. Though, I would

definitely

like to hear more from Mac and Kdub before I pursue my lynch on you. While you've been moderately scummy (and I'll admit, a lot of the gut feeling came from how KoC called you slightly-scummy and then got killed), I think one of those two are bound to be scum.

[Kreriov]

@Reckoner - No, everyone was not pushing Santos wagon. Most everyone expressed suspicion and questions some of Santos actions. I certainly did. ZWET, however, did nothing but tunnel on Santos. Even for Zwet that is a bit much. Couple that with this mythical 'need' to lynch someone before deadline and you have a ready made environment for scum to lynch a townie. You are right, I certainly think MacavityLock is scum. Kdub I put on about the same level as Zwet. You are not going to lynch me Reckoner. You made a mistake in going after me from the get go by trying to make something out of nothing, and doing it poorly. It brought you to my attention. As I said, I might have been pursing other leads, but that doesn't mean I wasn't watching you.

[MacavityLock]

Anyone else want to explain to Krer why a lynch, any lynch, and especially a lynch of someone who couldn't answer a question I specifically directed him to, was better than No Lynch yesterday? I don't want to keep repeating myself.

Also, I agree with this:

How am I lying, again? Calling me a liar/someone who mischaracterizes without any concrete proof is pretty blatantly hypocritical. So is the fact that you were just going after zwet, and as soon as you realized you had nothing concrete on him, you jumped right onto the next person who came after you.

[zwetschenwasser]

Santos was as scummy as hell. I'm not sure what I'm missing here, Krer.

[Kreriov]

@Zwet - Well, yeah, he sure did some things that I considered scummy, but it didn't track. Something wasn't right and his flipping townie confirms it. Looking back, Santos looks like a disinterested and bored townie. He just flat didn't really care after the first bit. He wasn't trying to hid scummy behavior by trying to act like you. He really was trying to act like you, but it was really a charicature. I think he just didn't want to play in a game with you. Why did you focus on him exclusively? So you thought he was scummy. Fine. You haven't really looked at anyone else and still haven't really. You might have a main target, but you try to look at others as well. And not reactively like you have this game. Doesn't matter I guess. Reckoner and Macavity have shown themselves to be scum.

[zwetschenwasser]

Reckoner and you are scumbuddies. That's my current hypothesis.

[Furry]

@Furry - Not true. Asking Sajin about his question is a VERY good line of questioning. It turns out BC falsely claimed miller. Did Sajin suspect he wasn't a miller? Was he trying to trip BC up? What? I want to know why Sajin asked that question. Sajin obviously had a reason.

Its a bad line of questioning. Its a very bad line of questioning.

[Kreriov]

@Furry - Really? Why? Convince me and I will withdraw the question.

[Furry]

@Furry - Really? Why? Convince me and I will withdraw the question.

Lets break it down then

Did Sajin suspect he wasn't a miller?

This does not matter in the least (even though I will hazard a guess of he didnt buy it). It is correct to pressure claims like this as much as possible. What is the scum benifit of putting pressure on a town claim? If the town is truthful, they are not going to trip up. That of course brings us to...

Was he trying to trip BC up?

Its actually a good thing to try and trip someone up when they claim. If they cant keep their story sraight, they are scum. Attacking it and squeezing out as much detail as possible introduces chances for scum to slip up and overstep thier claim, or for other town roles to catch them easier. Trying to get everything out of a claim as possible is unbelieveably pro-town. The fact that NO ONE did this actually made me think that BC was obviously scum as the scum team realized he wasnt going to get lynched for the claim.

What? I want to know why Sajin asked that question. Sajin obviously had a reason.

He asked it because its a very pro-town thing to do. Especially with a claim that will never have any actions backing it up. Since when is trying to see if a claim is fake or not, even through matching up theme flavor, a bad thing?

[xRECKONERx]

Withdrawing the question? What a moot point.

[Kreriov]

@Furry - Um, I did not say Sajin asking that question wasn't a townie thing to do. I just want more info about why he asked that particular question. If Sajin is town, he has nothing to hide. Sajin knows this very well. And one other reason to continue to press Sajin to actually answer my question is he has been unusually silent, often going days without posting anything. He specifically asked about an id card. Why? Do any of you have anything in your role PMs about an id card? I certainly do not. So basically what you are saying is putting pressure on BC was ok, but it is not ok to put pressure on Sajin? Is there a reason you are protecting Sajin and letting him effectively lurk?

[Furry]

@Furry - Um, I did not say Sajin asking that question wasn't a townie thing to do. I just want more info about why he asked that particular question. If Sajin is town, he has nothing to hide. Sajin knows this very well. And one other reason to continue to press Sajin to actually answer my question is he has been unusually silent, often going days without posting anything.

Ok you do NOT get to change what this is about to try and prove your point. This is about why getting clarification is a bad thing, not how active Sajin in, or what your read on him is.

He specifically asked about an id card. Why? Do any of you have anything in your role PMs about an id card? I certainly do not. So basically what you are saying is putting pressure on BC was ok, but it is not ok to put pressure on Sajin? Is there a reason you are protecting Sajin and letting him effectively lurk?

Subtlety be damned.

This is flavor/role fishing. The vanilla PM on the opening page does not in the least bit mention a ID card, as far as you should care, there is no ID card. I dont understand the question, but at this point in the game, I could care less. In my eyes asking him why he was interested in that is the equivilant of asking him to claim. Unless you are seriously trying to tell me that he is scum and asked that to hope that BC etiher lied (which would only be catchable if another miller claimed) or that he was also planning to claim miller, there really isnt any reason for scum to be asking that specific of a question.

Give me a scenario where its the right move for scum to ask that question.

Also stop trying to change the subject. I have Sajin as around a neutral read right now, this is not about my read on him, or his activity. You trying to make it that makes me think that you need a distraction to stop from losing this arguement.

[Kreriov]

@Furry - Come on, are you being deliberately stupid? Why shouldn't I be worried about an Id card? BC claims miller and out of the blue Sajin asks him if he lost and Id card. Either Sajin just admitted to being a power role or he was fishing for something. One or the other. I want to know why! Did you ever stop to think maybe I have a reason for this as well? Or are you just intent on being deliberately ignorant?

Because of Furry's incompetence or because he is scum, I will repeat it one more time while I still have a chance. Reckoner is scum. I have been watching him. Should I post it in red now as well?

[Furry]

@Furry - Come on, are you being deliberately stupid? Why shouldn't I be worried about an Id card? BC claims miller and out of the blue Sajin asks him if he lost and Id card.

Either Sajin just admitted to being a power role or he was fishing for something. One or the other. I want to know why!

Did you ever stop to think maybe I have a reason for this as well? Or are you just intent on being deliberately ignorant?

This is my exact point in why its really stupid to push this. What is more likely to you (hint - dont answer this)

1) Sajin is a PR
2) Sajin wanted to know the town miller flavor as town
3) Sajin wanted to know the town miller flavor as scum

If I was around when BC claimed, I would of been all over the claim for flavor. Also attacking something indirect indirectly is not going to illecit the response that you need. Keep that in mind.

[Kreriov]

@Furry - Well, I guess I sort of understand it from your position. From my viewpoint, the answer, however, is 3. Oh yeah, by the way, all you scum out there, Furry has pretty much just forced me to admit I am indeed a power role. Thanks Furry, Appreciate it.

And for the record, AGAIN, Reckoner is scum.

[MacavityLock]

Um, I am not on that wagon. Did you miss this? Or in your zealousness to attack me are you deliberately mistaken facts?

No, I didn't miss it. I made that table, and I couldn't figure out how to do it properly, so I needed two people in each category, and since I'm pretty sure you're scum at the moment, I added you to the scum column. As I said after I posted the table: I think Kre is scum for the reasons I've already mentioned.

Having re-examined the Santos wagon and the subsequent discussions on it, I have a question for Reckoner. In your table, you included Krer, who was not on the wagon. You did not include Starbuck, who was on the wagon. So, where does Starbuck fall on your suspicion list?

Speaking of, Starbuck needs a prod, as she hasn't posted in over a week.

[xRECKONERx]

I guess I got carried away with my analysis, haha. Starbuck would be a neutral-leaning-town read for me. Though with her limited posting, that could just be an effect of lurker-syndrome.

Kre, I feel like if I had come after anyone else besides you, you wouldn't feel so adamant about my scumminess. From where I'm standing, it looks like you're scum who panicked when the first sign of suspicion was cast on him and OMGUSed your accuser. Also, Furry did not "force" you to admit that you're a power role... I don't think I can believe that, really. I'm not saying to full-flavor-claim, but why would you softclaim a power role and not include any flavor?

[Sajin]

@Furry/krer- As much as that conversation involves me, I am not going to comment on it. Make of that what you will.

@Furry- Could you please respond to my last post?

@Kreriov: I am interested to know your response to this post by Mcavitylock:

Anyone else want to explain to Krer why a lynch, any lynch, and especially a lynch of someone who couldn't answer a question I specifically directed him to, was better than No Lynch yesterday? I don't want to keep repeating myself.

And Slicey needs to post.

[Kreriov]

@Reckoner - I'm not adamant about your scumminess because of what you have said and done, though that has been VERY scummy, I am adamant about your scumminess because I watched you follow KoC off. I have not panicked because I have you dead to rights. Unless, of course, you make a false claim. As you do not know what my title may or may not be, I look forward to you trying to come up with a good lie. Without saying anything about my role name or title, I will say the ability I used on you is The Camera Eye. I pick a player and watch them throughout the day. I think I was partially blocked, however, as I saw you follow KoC out, but then was told that the eye malfunctioned. You do the math.

@Sajin - Still waiting for YOUR response to my question, but I will answer. I have answered MacavityLock's question. Read back. See the part where I talk about scum not wanting a no lynch because it gives PRs more time to work? And about how that is exacerbated in a typical nightless set up? MacavityLock voted Santos, accourding to MacavityLock, because we 'needed' to get a lynch by deadline. He keeps arguing that he was acting in a townie fashion by doing so. Bullshit. He used that as an excuse to place a vote on a townie. He can hem haw around all he wants, but that is the fact of the matter, see...

Unvote. Vote: Santos.

Deadline vote + the fact that he can't describe what zwet-town would have looked like. Not my top choice, but it'll do.

I consider voting a townie a scummy action. Yes, people make mistakes, which is why townies usually do get lynched on D1. But MacavityLock's vote and his continue attempts to try and make excuses for it read scum.

[xRECKONERx]

The camera eye? That sounds like R2-D2. In any case, what do you mean it "malfunctioned"? Before or after the results? It doesn't make sense. If you got a result of me following KoC then it malfunctioned, how would that even remotely be true?

[MacavityLock]

@Sajin - Still waiting for YOUR response to my question, but I will answer. I have answered MacavityLock's question. Read back. See the part where I talk about scum not wanting a no lynch because it gives PRs more time to work? And about how that is exacerbated in a typical nightless set up?

Again, you're wrong. I'll explain this one more time and then I'm done.

First of all, this game isn't nightless.

5. Active abilities are abilities that must be actively used by the player. They either resolve immediately upon being received or at the end of a day/night cycle.
6. All players are limited to ONE active ability per day/night cycle unless stated otherwise.

This is a game where twilight stands in for night.

Secondly, with a No Lynch, it would have been 10 players today. I'm going to assume one 3 scum faction for the sake of this argument, but the numbers still work for any other single anti-town faction size. With 3 scum, 7 town, it's 2 mislynches to game over: Day 3 - 3 scum, 5 town; Day 4 - 3 scum, 3 town, game ends before day starts. As it is today, assuming 3 scum, 6 town, it's 2 mislynches to game over: Day 3 - 3 scum, 4 town; Day 4 - 3 scum, 2 town, game ends before day starts. There is limited benefit to No Lynch, relying solely on Doctor's accurate protections, Vigs, NK-immunity, or multiple anti-town factions. No matter what I am, I can't know about multiple anti-town factions. I doubt we've got more vig-ing in store, I doubt we have anyone NK-immune, and a Doc would need to get really lucky. The risk-reward, where the risk was a very slight chance of an extra day and reward is possibly killing scum, was worth it. This is to say I'm not now nor was I ever blindly saying that No Lynch is worse than what turned out to be a townie lynch; I carefully considered it.

Now, having read what Krer said to Reckoner, Reckoner needs to claim right now.

[Kreriov]

@MacavityLock - Interesting how you quote some parts and leave out one very important part.

Special Rules

• 1.
  This game is nightless.
  Days transition to the next day with a twilight phase in the middle to sumbit actions after a lynch.

(Bolding added by me.)

It would be folly to assume that scum can kill every twilight or only in twilight. In fact, it is much more likely they have other powers like, oh, I don't know, daykills? But again, instead of looking at the facts, you continue to defend your horrible vote because 'we had to lynch someone by deadline'. Talk about not taking responsibility for your vote!

Lets try your numbers again. Even though I think it a bad assumption, I will assume scum can somehow always kill anonymously in twilight. Ok. So, after the D1 daykill and the twilight death. With a no-lynch we would have had 10 people. It is now 7/3. Lets no lynch again. 6/3. And again. 5/3. And, once more 4/3. Well, we are now in LYLO. So, what happened in that time? Did the cop find anyone? Was he killed? If not, how many townies are cleared and how many scum did he find? If he was killed, did he leave enough info to see who he cleared and who he caught? Do you know? Are prescient? And all this is based on the assumption that in a game that is EXPLICITLY nightless, that scum can always kill anonymously during twilight. But once again, you are missing the point. This shouldn't be an argument over whether no-lynch is a good or bad option. It should be an argument that you used THAT as an excuse to vote Santos. You even said you were not completely sure about his scumminess! Talk about trying to not take a stand! Can you get any scummier? Can you try and 'forget' parts of the rules even when quoting them again? Can you try to misrepresent things more? Here's your sign. It says scum.

[xRECKONERx]

I think it would be bad for town for me to claim at this point. However, should multiple people say it's what I should do, I'll do it.