Mini 845 - The Amish Village (Game Over)

[Kairyuu]

Sorry to see you go Albert. I was looking forward to butting heads with you again.

On a similar note, welcome to the game Ojanen!

@all: I'm easily distracted by shiny new things not on Mafiascum. I'll get something useful posted by tonight.

[MiteyMouse]

Sorry Artem, I was trying to think how to word it properly. Day 1 is usually pretty random and more often then not, a Townie gets offed on Day 1. Quite often Day 1 lynches are based on gut reactions more than evidence. I like to sit back and watch Day 1 as, some of the interactions that people have become important once someone has flipped. I also, get a chance to read everything better during the Night phase of the game. Then I can read and analyze at my own pace...I'm not a quick reader and am easily distracted and the Night gives me time to figure things out a bit better.

[Rosso Carne]

I hate being a downer here, but thats really pathetic MM.

Mafia is all about the day. The best games are 10 townies and 2 mafia, its where your skills are honed and you dont depend on stupid power roles to win.

Day 1 is anyhting but useless. It might not actually kill a scum, but as time goes on, the reactions people have on day 1 are the purest the town has to go off, and they are the reactions that helpt he town win int he end.

so yeah, day is SOOOO important, especially day 1, so batton down a bit and actually contribute.

[MiteyMouse]

I was asked and I answered...I have other things to say about your reaction but, I am not you Rosso.

[Rosso Carne]

I'm not asking you to be me, I'm asking you to be productive.

[le Chat]

I'm going to AWA this weekend. I'll post again tomorrow morning before I go and then Sunday night / Monday morning when I get back. Sorry to see ABR go, glad to see he made a pretty cool decision and look forward to hearing from his replacement. Still looking forward to hearing from Claus. I'm going to focus on Nuwen in an (iso)read in bed tonight before I post tomorrow.

[Kairyuu]

Alrighty then. Not much has changed in the last few pages. I'm still scratching my head as to why Red_Dye isn't swinging yet, given how blatantly scummy he's being, but meh. These things take time I suppose.

MM is not impressing me. I was under the impression that we had left the defeatist D1 attitudes of some newbies behind us when we stopped being newbies. I suppose not. Scum can be, and are, found on D1. It just requires actual effort on the part of the town.

Nothing else sticks out. If I missed any questions directed at me, I apologize. Just point me towards them and I'll get them answered right away.

[chamber]

@mod can I replace out with red_dye and replace in with this account? Keeping up two accounts when one is a known alt is too much work.

[Amished]

Sure, Chamber = Red_Dye; current votes and play are now officially transferred. Welcome? back? ... Glad to have you? .... Whatever, just get ta' playin'!

[Amished]

Mod Votecount 1-12

Chamber/Red_Dye (3): Kairyuu; Artem; le Chat;
Herodotus (1): magnus_orion
MiteyMouse (3): VP Baltar; Herodotus; Claus
Rosso Carne (2): Nuwen; MiteyMouse
Kairyuu (1): Chamber/Red_Dye

Not voting (2): Rosso_Carne; Ojanen

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

As per 283, Chamber is the same person as Red_Dye. After this votecount, I'll be referring to him as Chamber 100% of the time.

[magnus_orion]

hmmmm...
Well... that vote count is interesting...
two wagons with three votes each on them.

Yeah... I still think herodotus is scum.
kairyuu's opinion on rosso would be appreciated.

[Claus]

I'm a bit dismotivated by the last few pages. I'm still up for hanging Chamber (Red Dye), MM or Le Chat.

Le Chat: Your previous post is an improvement. But I can expect that after I hounded you so much you would try to improve anyway. Your ISO 4 is nice because you explicitly says who you suspect, but I found that your suspicion at the time was kinda "too safe". Mind you, right now two of my suspects are the same as yours, so that counts points for you. Either you're town and I'm wrong, or you are distancing from Chamber-scumpartner, and I'm fine with that too.

Magnus - Could you explain to me why you think Hero is scum? I don't have a clear read of him right now. Would like to know your case.

Chamber - I would like to hear your reasons suspecting Kairyuu - If nothing else because you are one of the best alternatives for lynching right now.

[magnus_orion]

He was rather delayed in unvoting me. His reason was that my answer satisfied him. However, the amount of time that passed between my answer and his unvote was considerable, and he posted several times in that interval. Yet my answer suddenly satisfies him. I'd bet that this is because he noticed that my wagon had begun lagging and decided to abandon it.
Also, his next vote is on miteymouse. Based on what he says when he unvotes me, its highly likely he was already planning on switching to MM once he waited a little. The reasons he gives when he does vote MM are very limited.


Now, Claus, why are you satisfied by lynching these three, especially given that you don't seem particularly convinced any of them are scum?
Also can you clarify what you mean by the words "best alternatives for lynching"?
It sounds like you are weighing the likely-hood that people will agree to lynch certain people, as if you aren't concerned with the scumminess of the lynch so much as concerned with whether people will be willing to lynch.

I'd like herodotus's opinion on Claus now.

[le Chat]

After iso-Nuwen my opinion on her is that she hasn't done much at all. Starts with a question to the mod about if scum could communicate before the game began, and then an accusation that (now)VP Baltar and Rosso are scum that missed pre-game talk, or they're town. don't understand why that's necessary just because they hadn't spoken. Doesn't like Rosso's attitude; doesn't like MM's 'plead of [Day 1] personal meta.' I don't like her response in iso-11 to VP Baltar:

That's a terrible post, MM, for someone of ANY alignment. You've played in enough games that you should know full well that scuminess is sink or swim, and doing something to intentionally draw attention or behave in a visibly scummy way

will

get you lynched. Trying to plead personal meta will not trump the necessity of keeping the site meta squeaky clean: lynching players for behaving scummily is a fundamental component of mafia.

And at what point do you plan on taking some action toward this?

for someone of ANY alignment

of ANY alignment

ANY alignment

Are you really trying to goad a non-alignment-specific policy lynch?

Don't think he was trying to goad anything. Think he was pointing out that you say her post is terrible, basically from the sidelines, but there's nothing in that post that shows your opinion of her as town/scum.

Hope you finished backreading and comment on that.

[le Chat]

Le Chat: Your previous post is an improvement. But I can expect that after I hounded you so much you would try to improve anyway. Your ISO 4 is nice because you explicitly says who you suspect, but I found that your suspicion at the time was kinda "too safe". Mind you, right now two of my suspects are the same as yours, so that counts points for you. Either you're town and I'm wrong, or you are distancing from Chamber-scumpartner, and I'm fine with that too.

I find it kind of hard to respond to that. 'My previous post is an improvement,' by that you mean my iso-8. But 'iso-4 is nice' too. What improved, then, between 4 and 8? You said my iso-4 suspects were 'too safe.' They were Chamber, ABR, and MM. Chamber said things I disagreed with and I quoted them; everyone was basically giving ABR a free pass; MM had a late RVS vote that I thought was out of place - this was

before

MM said her Day 1 meta isn't so good, so how does that make my vote 'too safe?' And then, if 2/3 of my said suspicious are the same as yours (3rd being ABR and his brownie townie points), then that counts points for me.. but you still say they're too safe? Are they too safe for you to suspect, or just me?

Either you're town and I'm wrong, or you are distancing from Chamber-scumpartner, and I'm fine with that too.

Can you clarify that for me? Specifically the 'either you're town and I'm wrong.' Wrong about the Chamber, or wrong about your suspicion of me?

[le Chat]

I'm sorry, I meant to tack this onto my last post but I forgot:

Ojanen replaced in a bit ago for ABR and we still haven't heard from them. Totally looking forward to your opinions!

[Claus]

Heh sorry about that. I'm just not getting very inspired by this game at the moment and that leads me to a more passive tone. Red Dye and MM are still reasonable lynches, but I'm undecided if I should let go of Le Chat or not.

I'll re-read Herotodus and Chat more carefully.

As if you aren't concerned with the scumminess of the lynch so much as concerned with whether people will be willing to lynch.

Why can't I be concerned with both? Of course I'm interested in knowing who wants to lynch who - the largest part of my scumhunting in later days comes from comparing people's positions on wagons and card flips.

[le Chat]

Well, get inspired! The power of cat compels you! Respond to my questionnsss! You can't poke me over and over and then say, "I'm bored."

[chamber]

He was rather delayed in unvoting me. His reason was that my answer satisfied him. However, the amount of time that passed between my answer and his unvote was considerable, and he posted several times in that interval. Yet my answer suddenly satisfies him. I'd bet that this is because he noticed that my wagon had begun lagging and decided to abandon it.
Also, his next vote is on miteymouse. Based on what he says when he unvotes me, its highly likely he was already planning on switching to MM once he waited a little. The reasons he gives when he does vote MM are very limited.

I don't move my vote because I don't have anywhere to put it, and always want it somewhere for day 1. Because of my posting frequency, which you have already observed, if the wagon on artem moves rapidly toward a lynch, I will comment on that, and unless I've changed my mind, unvote.

discuss

[magnus_orion]

I'm going to assume you believe those to be mutually exclusive or something along those lines?
He didn't move his vote. He unvoted. My wagon wasn't hurtling toward a lynch at the time either.

[Ojanen]

Hi.

@chamber, please do explain why you find Kai so scummy.
I got a pretty townish gut from you earlier, thought you were attacked partly for not-good reasons and spent my catch up looking at people through those glasses, but this part

I don't expect to persuade anyone

made me cringe when coupled with the confidence expressed in the vote. (only pseudo-aggresivity, sitting in own corner with vote, path to lack of involvement)

Regardless, gonna post some of the observations I scribbled down before getting to that.

@Claus: Simple. Iso post 10 and iso post 4 bye Red_Dye. Iso post 10 makes iso post 4, which I assumed was just Red_Dye being stupid for kicks, look REALLY bad, since he admits himself that it was completely serious

Let's look at what iso 4 was, after Kai voted him for advocating quicklynch:

But its so much easier to get them killed when they can't fight back!

I think it's clear this is jokish, wouldn't persuade people in any universe, and though made with a serious intent, would accomplish at most getting reactions, not a lynch.
So serious allegations over chamber advocating a quicklynch or a real contradiction based on this I dislike . (Kai, perhaps even more than him the echoers le Chat in 98 and MM in 254)

1. He attempts to tie Kairyuu and I as scumbuddies, even though Kairyuu is arguing against the points brought up against me (instead of explicitly defending me), something that could easily be transferred over to any other player that may have done what I did.

Do you really find explicitly defending someone is a more likely scum-scum behaviour as opposed to attacking reasons?

@Mitey: I was under the impression you IC rather a lot. How do you deal with day ones there?

I like to sit back and watch Day 1 as, some of the interactions that people have become important once someone has flipped. I also, get a chance to read everything better during the Night phase of the game. Then I can read and analyze at my own pace...I'm not a quick reader and am easily distracted and the Night gives me time to figure things out a bit better.

This is basically denying others of getting a read from her, especially when she herself finds the interactions important later.
Slightly strange excuse that she would have trouble following the game during the day that lasts several weeks but would find easily the time during the night that lasts max four days - the flow of the new posts isn't terribly fast after all.
Disliked the Rosso wagoning.

At this stage, I do not approve of a Rosso lynch. He's felt moderately transparent and townish behind the playstyle to me.
For example I recognize Rosso's philosophy in 172 and I like that he defended Red dye through it, I had somewhat similar thoughts at that point. I like Rosso's 193 (IGMEOY Artem post).

@Kai&Magnus: Do you guys know each other in real life?

I need another day to read this game/certain players more thoroughly, not enough time right now.

[magnus_orion]

I apologize for double posting

Heh sorry about that. I'm just not getting very inspired by this game at the moment and that leads me to a more passive tone. Red Dye and MM are still reasonable lynches, but I'm undecided if I should let go of Le Chat or not.

I'll re-read Herotodus and Chat more carefully.

As if you aren't concerned with the scumminess of the lynch so much as concerned with whether people will be willing to lynch.

Why can't I be concerned with both? Of course I'm interested in knowing who wants to lynch who - the largest part of my scumhunting in later days comes from comparing people's positions on wagons and card flips.

That's fine, could you qualify your case about what is scummy about chamber for me, then?

[magnus_orion]

I apologize for ACTUALLY double posting

yes, I do know kairyuu in real life.

[Artem]

Why is refusing to explain myself inherently scummy?

Because you can explain anything away with "I'm fishing for reactions", and refusing to explain yourself now allows you to play that card later when the heat is on. Also, I

want

to know why you find Kairyuu scummy, because you may have spotted something I missed. If you don't share your reasons for a vote, then I have to assume that you are just parking your vote on somebody, rather than using it to pressure players and lynch scum.

All that aside, a player with your level of experience shouldn't be asking "What's scummy about not explaining yourself". All you're doing is making scummy moves (that you should know are scummy by now) then sitting back and asking what, how and why, thus distracting from the scum hunting (which should consist of votes piling up on you until you either a) set the BS aside and explain your scummy play with more than "just fishing for reactions" or b) get your useless hind lynched)

Also, what are your feelings on Nuwen and ABR?

ABR was giving off a vibe of mostly watching the game. I would put him into the same category as red_eye, Rosso and MM in terms of usefulness. The difference from the other three is that ABR hasn't done anything inherently scummy.

Nuwen is one of those players on whom I get a mild scummy read, mostly due to her connection to le chat (through le chat's hypothetical question I pointed out earlier) and to MM (which is what you pointed out).

hmmmm...
Well... that vote count is interesting...
two wagons with three votes each on them.

Why is it interesting now, but wasn't when we had 3-vote MM vs. Rosso?

Heh sorry about that. I'm just not getting very inspired by this game at the moment and that leads me to a more passive tone. Red Dye and MM are still reasonable lynches, but I'm undecided if I should let go of Le Chat or not.

I'm with Claus on this one. Nothing interesting is really happening. Too many players resort to one-liners. (and no, the majority of those are not quality one-liners). I'd like more pressure on Chamber at the moment, and if he still refuses to explain himself, then I say we lynch him. If he does explain what he's doing, then we analyze that and go from there. Both options make the game progress, which in my opinion is more preferable to just sitting here shooting one-liners back and forth.

All that said about Chamber, I actually like his 293.

I'm going to assume you believe those to be mutually exclusive or something along those lines?
He didn't move his vote. He unvoted. My wagon wasn't hurtling toward a lynch at the time either.

In my opinion, unvoting late is still preferable to keeping your vote on somebody because you have nowhere to move it. Yet, you somehow have it reversed. Why's that?

Do you really find explicitly defending someone is a more likely scum-scum behaviour as opposed to attacking reasons?

That's what I'm saying. Kair was attacking Red's reasons for voting me. Red said that it makes Kair scum because he was defending me. So the question should really go to Chamber, not me.

[magnus_orion]

Why is it interesting now, but wasn't when we had 3-vote MM vs. Rosso?

because I didn't notice

In my opinion, unvoting late is still preferable to keeping your vote on somebody because you have nowhere to move it. Yet, you somehow have it reversed. Why's that?

I believe I explained the differences involved.

Quote Tags fixed. We Amish are handy to have around >_>