Mini 847 Murder in Zachtown (Game over!)

[Zachrulez]

13th vote count of day 1:

Yellowbunny - 3 (DTMaster, Sotty7, Battle Mage)
Battle Mage - 2 (Netopolis, Yellowbunny)
Kittymo - 1 (Haylen)
Hitogoroshi - 1 (Maemuki)
Nikanor - 1 (ckool5000)
ckool5000 - 1 (Nikanor)

Not voting (jasonT1981, hitogoroshi, KittyMo)

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

If I made any mistakes, let me know asap.

Deadline is extended to September 30th at 9pm central. No further extension will be granted.

[Battle Mage]

I cant be bothered to start replying to stuff now. Ah hell, i'll choose 1 post, and reply to that. But anything else can wait till i feel more amenable.

YellowBunny is scum. KittyMo is scum. Nikanor is town. Netopalis is town.

I'd hop to a KittyMo wagon at deadline if needed.

BM

[Battle Mage]

skimmed the Yellowbunny post. Big surprise.

Not a terrible play given his position, but obvscum nonetheless.

BM

Uhh what? Perhaps my definition of 'obv' differs wildly from yours, but I failed to see anything particularly scummy about that post! Perhaps it dwelled a little bit too much on "BM is rude and should be lynched for such" (which is the straw-man I pointed out other players using before) but it made some good points and was coherent, which alone makes me instantly like YB over CSL.

Lol, you wish.

It's completely tunnel-visioned, which is far more anti-town than it is protown from a new player joining the game. Moreover, he comes in with a big wagon on him, and instead of voting based on genuine suspicions, he attacks a prominent figure (can i say that? ) on his wagon.
VE-RY protown.

BM

YB - slight-scum: I certainly agree that CSL appeared to be white-knighting, but there's quite a bit more than that he did you need to dig out of. Still, if your other posts are like that first one you could very well escape his problems.

BM - neutral read: I understand your playstyle, and don't count it against you, but that just means I don't see you as scummy where others do, not that I see you as town for it.

FoS: Hito

I cant handle sentences anymore. So here goes:

1. What is with the "incentivising" towards YB? If you think someone is scum, you put them under pressure right? Instead, you seem to be behaving overly nice, and giving him as much opportunity as possible to get himself out of trouble. I'd almost be inclined to call it buddying.

2. The disclaimer on the end of your comment about me, rings as scummy- as in you are keeping your options open to wagon me later. It definitely doesnt read as a genuine opinion.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Ugh, why did i sign the middle of my post? 0.o lol

skimmed the Yellowbunny post. Big surprise.

Not a terrible play given his position, but obvscum nonetheless.

BM

hmmm, not sure I like this.. I made the point of selective reading earlier when you said you skimmed my post and would not read the rest, now you are doing the same to YB post?

really not liking this now, that's 2 accounts of

confessed

selective reading from BM

This is one of 2 reasons i'm discouraged from putting extra effort in here. Major facepalm for you Jason. -.-

Read your post again, especially the italics, and then explain why you think it is scummy.

BM

[Netopalis]

I cant be bothered to start replying to stuff now. Ah hell, i'll choose 1 post, and reply to that. But anything else can wait till i feel more amenable.

YellowBunny is scum. KittyMo is scum. Nikanor is town. Netopalis is town.

I'd hop to a KittyMo wagon at deadline if needed.

BM

Oh, for the love of all that is good and holy and right in the world, DO YOU THINK YOU COULD GIVE US A FREAKING REASON FOR YOUR ASSERTATIONS?!?! I mean, come on, you expect us to BLINDLY follow every single time you post and swallow wholly every time you declare from your high horse that someone "is scum" or "is town"? WHY is Yellowbunny scum? WHY is KittyMo scum? WHY is Nikanor town? WHY am I town? WHY should ANY of us listen to ANYTHING you have to say when your posts have been absolutely useless and ridiculously illogical?

I'm getting frustrated. I need to step away. I'll post again later today.

[hitogoroshi]

YB - slight-scum: I certainly agree that CSL appeared to be white-knighting, but there's quite a bit more than that he did you need to dig out of. Still, if your other posts are like that first one you could very well escape his problems.

BM - neutral read: I understand your playstyle, and don't count it against you, but that just means I don't see you as scummy where others do, not that I see you as town for it.

FoS: Hito

I cant handle sentences anymore. So here goes:

1. What is with the "incentivising" towards YB? If you think someone is scum, you put them under pressure right? Instead, you seem to be behaving overly nice, and giving him as much opportunity as possible to get himself out of trouble. I'd almost be inclined to call it buddying.

2. The disclaimer on the end of your comment about me, rings as scummy- as in you are keeping your options open to wagon me later. It definitely doesnt read as a genuine opinion.

BM

1. I'm giving HER a chance to get HERself out of trouble (;)) because while I think CSL acted somewhat scummy he also acted predominantly like an idiot and if she can coherently defend herself without looking scummy, I'm willing to put more stock into CSL simply being a bumbling townie.

2. The disclaimer was clarification. I was defending you against earlier accusations, and I was pointing out that wasn't because I had gotten large town-reads off of you, but because the 'case' against you was illogical and unfair.

And I'm going to have to agree with Neto that I want to see why you think a.) KittyMo is scum and b.) Neto is town.

However, I do agree with you, BM, in that upon further review YB's case does read a little bit more like an attack on a wagoner. YB, could you try to condense everything into three bullet points on why we should vote BM? Do it without quoting any posts or anything, just...three bullet points.

[KittyMo]

I cant be bothered to start replying to stuff now. Ah hell, i'll choose 1 post, and reply to that. But anything else can wait till i feel more amenable.

YellowBunny is scum. KittyMo is scum. Nikanor is town. Netopalis is town.

I'd hop to a KittyMo wagon at deadline if needed.

BM

What? Ummmm. I recall you calling me obvtown earlier. What changed?

You're also flipping on Nikanor a lot. What's up with that?

[Sotty7]

Just a heads up, I don't post much here on weekends. Simply because I'm not sat at the computer for most of the day.

My best guess on his play is that he is suffering from "damsel in distress" syndrome. (Since I've noticed a disporpotinaly large number of females in this game as opposed to most others I've played (yay!), feel free to back me up on this, as I'm sure you're quite familiar with the signs of this syndrome). I read his reaction as him seeing a female in trouble, and getting overly defensive about helping her out. Regardless of how you feel about such actions (and gender roles and things of that nature), I doubt anyone will argue with me when I say that for a fair number of men, this sort of behavior is is a knee-jerk reaction -- much in the same way that men will open a door for a woman, feel that they need to pay for both on a date, carry a bag/package for a woman, ect. Now, of course, what CSL did was not pro-town in the sense that it can be interpreted as some sort of in-game relationship between the two, plus he is defending a player based on nothing more than gender...but a foolish move does not always imply scum.

Hate to say it, but I think this reasoning of CSL actions is bullshit, I don't see any evidence of CSL defending Maemuki simply because of her gender. Correct me if I am wrong, but he just doesn't see the case on her. The fact she is a female seems inconsequential to that.

When you say i "dont believe fully in my case", what you actually mean is, "i'm not 100% convinced in it", amirite?

Besides, you shouldnt be voting based on my opinion of my case. If YOU believe my case had merit, you vote on that.

It means that you didn't believe what you were saying enough to vote, yet at the same time you were complaining about the lack of wagon on her. Those two things don't add up.

I also think that Sotty and CKool have been rather light on the content. While others have posted few times, they've posted few times with little substance to those posts. They might be good ones to consider as well.

Are you seriously putting me in with ckool? I have been posting content, I suggest you look back again and do another read. I have also asked you to answer your questions you posted a while back, something you haven't done. Also, are you just going to ignore everyones answers or was there a point to the questions that will lead to some analysis?

Where is Maemuki?
Ckool needs to get in here and post actual content
Ditto Haylen.
I am trying to sort out between BM v Yellowbunny. I can't shake the meta I have on CSL but BM's actions don't match up to his words. I find that scummy.

[yellowbunny]

It's completely tunnel-visioned, which is far more anti-town than it is protown from a new player joining the game. Moreover, he comes in with a big wagon on him, and instead of voting based on genuine suspicions, he attacks a prominent figure (can i say that? Wink) on his wagon.

See, BM, this is the problem when you don't read things. I was very annoyed when reading this thread and making my notes that I had little else to comment on other than you, and discuss this (both the reasons for it and the effects on my analysis of everyone) in my first post. If you had bothered to READ, you would know this.

This is one of 2 reasons i'm discouraged from putting extra effort in here. Major facepalm for you Jason. -.-

Read your post again, especially the italics, and then explain why you think it is scummy. Razz

I know this is directed at Jason, but this just screams for a response. BM, while not reading isn't necessarily scummy, explain to me how its pro-town behavior.

Oh, for the love of all that is good and holy and right in the world, DO YOU THINK YOU COULD GIVE US A FREAKING REASON FOR YOUR ASSERTATIONS?!?! I mean, come on, you expect us to BLINDLY follow every single time you post and swallow wholly every time you declare from your high horse that someone "is scum" or "is town"? WHY is Yellowbunny scum? WHY is KittyMo scum? WHY is Nikanor town? WHY am I town? WHY should ANY of us listen to ANYTHING you have to say when your posts have been absolutely useless and ridiculously illogical?

His magic 8-ball told him. Gosh, Neto, get with the program pal...

However, I do agree with you, BM, in that upon further review YB's case does read a little bit more like an attack on a wagoner. YB, could you try to condense everything into three bullet points on why we should vote BM? Do it without quoting any posts or anything, just...three bullet points.

Regarding the "attack on the wagoner", I found little else to comment on, and if you reread my first post, you will see that I discuss this. And, to be fair, examine your own opinions. If you were to post a PBPA like I did of the game to date, how much of it would you be able to write that didn't have to do with BM directly or indirectly? Probably not much.

As for why everyone else should vote for BM, I don't like telling people how I think they should vote. So lets just call this why *I'm* voting for BM:

1.) BM makes wild accusations, has very little to back them up, and his opinions/votes change faster than the weather in Chicago (and, being from Chicago, let me tell you, that is VERY RAPIDLY AND FREQUENTLY). I am not the only one who commented on this (for example, see KittyMo's 406).
2.) I do not see how his taunting of CSL (and to a lesser extent, Mae) was designed to do anything other than make them upset and cause them to become overemotional and/or quit. It is one thing to note buddying behavior and follow up on it, but what he did was completely over the top and inappropriate. This seems consistent with scum who is trying to build up a bs case. Do you think its a coincidence that he did this to a player who is known from his meta to be a very weak (and, if this game is any evidence) emotional player?
3.) Hrm...I don't have a third bullet, so I'll just say that lynching BM decreases the likelihood of any rabbit-on-player decapitations. (And your emphasis on HER is much appreciated hehe)

Hate to say it, but I think this reasoning of CSL actions is bullshit, I don't see any evidence of CSL defending Maemuki simply because of her gender. Correct me if I am wrong, but he just doesn't see the case on her. The fact she is a female seems inconsequential to that.

BM's whole "zomg, you're a COUPLE!" indicates to me that he thought gender was something of an issue (I believe he would have framed his attack differently if it were not for that). Also, I remember reading at least one other player commenting on CSL "flirting" with Mae. I don't have time to go and find the quote atm, but if you want me to, I will. And I am not saying that CSL thinking the case on Mae is wrong wasn't a part of the reason he was defending her -- I think the gender thing is what pushed this from being simply "BM this doesn't make sense" to his white-knighting.

[hitogoroshi]

To be quite frank, YB, I asked for bullet points specifically to give you a chance to state a case for BM outside of "I don't like him/he's wagoning me" and what you provided only bolstered BM's accusations. Your bullet points are basicially 1.) BM is spastic and 2.) BM is a jerk. I'm not convinced either of those are scumtells.

I've said it before and I'll stand by it - while BM's style is quite unlike mine, I very much appreciate it for increasing the tempo and eliciting unlikely responses. You can dislike his style all you want but it is not, not, not a clear indicator of scum, no matter how annoying it may be.

@Sotty, if 'unvote my evil twin and you've got yourself a deal' isn't white-knighting, what is it?

[Battle Mage]

I cant be bothered to start replying to stuff now. Ah hell, i'll choose 1 post, and reply to that. But anything else can wait till i feel more amenable.

YellowBunny is scum. KittyMo is scum. Nikanor is town. Netopalis is town.

I'd hop to a KittyMo wagon at deadline if needed.

BM

What? Ummmm. I recall you calling me obvtown earlier. What changed?

You're also flipping on Nikanor a lot. What's up with that?

Yeh, i just came to say i changed my mind on you again. After your incredibly distasteful post in Appenine Mafia, i've decided that you just have a personal axe to grind with me, and thus, i cant really judge you in the same way as other people here. You could be town.

Speaking of Appenine, having read it, you should have a good read on me as town, and hence not have to ask your last question. Frankly, i've only changed my mind on Nikanor once- i felt he was a bit scummy, and now i think he is probably town. Is that so hard to get your head around??

BM

[Battle Mage]

It's completely tunnel-visioned, which is far more anti-town than it is protown from a new player joining the game. Moreover, he comes in with a big wagon on him, and instead of voting based on genuine suspicions, he attacks a prominent figure (can i say that? Wink) on his wagon.

See, BM, this is the problem when you don't read things. I was very annoyed when reading this thread and making my notes that I had little else to comment on other than you, and discuss this (both the reasons for it and the effects on my analysis of everyone) in my first post. If you had bothered to READ, you would know this.

Why would i read a post by you, if i know all it will contain is an angry rant about me?? lmao xD

This is one of 2 reasons i'm discouraged from putting extra effort in here. Major facepalm for you Jason. -.-

Read your post again, especially the italics, and then explain why you think it is scummy. Razz

I know this is directed at Jason, but this just screams for a response. BM, while not reading isn't necessarily scummy, explain to me how its pro-town behavior.

Lol, i didnt say it was. But i think i said i would reply at some point, and i do intend to. However, nobody likes to play a forum game where all they get is a string of abuse. I'm sure you'll forgive me if i have more fulfilling things to do with my time than bicker pointlessly with you.

Oh, for the love of all that is good and holy and right in the world, DO YOU THINK YOU COULD GIVE US A FREAKING REASON FOR YOUR ASSERTATIONS?!?! I mean, come on, you expect us to BLINDLY follow every single time you post and swallow wholly every time you declare from your high horse that someone "is scum" or "is town"? WHY is Yellowbunny scum? WHY is KittyMo scum? WHY is Nikanor town? WHY am I town? WHY should ANY of us listen to ANYTHING you have to say when your posts have been absolutely useless and ridiculously illogical?

His magic 8-ball told him. Gosh, Neto, get with the program pal...

buddying another person who dislikes me. Very protown...

As for why everyone else should vote for BM, I don't like telling people how I think they should vote. So lets just call this why *I'm* voting for BM:

Woah Woah Woah. You...erm...dont like telling people how to vote? How do you expect to lynch scum with that attitude? 0.o

1.) BM makes wild accusations, has very little to back them up, and his opinions/votes change faster than the weather in Chicago (and, being from Chicago, let me tell you, that is VERY RAPIDLY AND FREQUENTLY). I am not the only one who commented on this (for example, see KittyMo's 406).

Wild accusations? It's Day 1. Unlike you, i want this game to progress, and thus, i will bandwagon, and attempt to pressure people, in order to work out their alignment. You can like it or lump it, but with a little co-operation it DOES work.

Changing opinions is a maaassive towntell btw. Unless your accusation is that i'm looking "too townie"?

2.) I do not see how his taunting of CSL (and to a lesser extent, Mae) was designed to do anything other than make them upset and cause them to become overemotional and/or quit.

Aww didums! Rofl xD
No really, i shed a tear. Several in fact.

Dont forget, you are the new CSL. Surely you're happy you were able to replace in right? You dont sound very grateful-given according to you, it's thanks to me that you're here.

It is one thing to note buddying behavior and follow up on it, but what he did was completely over the top and inappropriate. This seems consistent with scum who is trying to build up a bs case.

Lol, i genuinely believed they were a couple. I highly doubt i was the only one. I played a game like that a little while back, and it really does affect your reads. Whether you acknowledge it or not, CSL was buddying Mae intentionally, and obviously, in an attempt to look scummy. As far as i can see, that's more a towntell than anything else.

Anyway, if you want an apology for me not knowing the personal history of every played on MS...actually, you can swing for it. lmao

Do you think its a coincidence that he did this to a player who is known from his meta to be a very weak (and, if this game is any evidence) emotional player?

Ehhhh?? I DON'T EVEN KNOW THE GUY!

Seriously, what is up with you? :S

3.) Hrm...I don't have a third bullet,

That doesnt mean we're gonna keep you around till Night 3.

so I'll just say that lynching BM decreases the likelihood of any rabbit-on-player decapitations. (And your emphasis on HER is much appreciated hehe)

i dont get it.

Hate to say it, but I think this reasoning of CSL actions is bullshit, I don't see any evidence of CSL defending Maemuki simply because of her gender. Correct me if I am wrong, but he just doesn't see the case on her. The fact she is a female seems inconsequential to that.

BM's whole "zomg, you're a COUPLE!" indicates to me that he thought gender was something of an issue (I believe he would have framed his attack differently if it were not for that).

Yeh, you're right. If they had been the same gender, i'd probably have thought they were really close friends before i called them out on being homosexuals. I guess i'm not as PC as you thought, huh?

BM

[Battle Mage]

I cant be bothered to start replying to stuff now. Ah hell, i'll choose 1 post, and reply to that. But anything else can wait till i feel more amenable.

YellowBunny is scum. KittyMo is scum. Nikanor is town. Netopalis is town.

I'd hop to a KittyMo wagon at deadline if needed.

BM

Oh, for the love of all that is good and holy and right in the world, DO YOU THINK YOU COULD GIVE US A FREAKING REASON FOR YOUR ASSERTATIONS?!?! I mean, come on, you expect us to BLINDLY follow every single time you post and swallow wholly every time you declare from your high horse that someone "is scum" or "is town"? WHY is Yellowbunny scum? WHY is KittyMo scum? WHY is Nikanor town? WHY am I town? WHY should ANY of us listen to ANYTHING you have to say when your posts have been absolutely useless and ridiculously illogical?

I'm getting frustrated. I need to step away. I'll post again later today.

Lol, calm down please. I dont expect you to FOLLOW me. I expect you to take my opinions as being well...my opinions.

Feel free to let your brain kick in and take some of the strain A-N-Y time now.

Also, how can posting alignments without analysis be "illogical"?

BM

[Battle Mage]

YB - slight-scum: I certainly agree that CSL appeared to be white-knighting, but there's quite a bit more than that he did you need to dig out of. Still, if your other posts are like that first one you could very well escape his problems.

BM - neutral read: I understand your playstyle, and don't count it against you, but that just means I don't see you as scummy where others do, not that I see you as town for it.

FoS: Hito

I cant handle sentences anymore. So here goes:

1. What is with the "incentivising" towards YB? If you think someone is scum, you put them under pressure right? Instead, you seem to be behaving overly nice, and giving him as much opportunity as possible to get himself out of trouble. I'd almost be inclined to call it buddying.

2. The disclaimer on the end of your comment about me, rings as scummy- as in you are keeping your options open to wagon me later. It definitely doesnt read as a genuine opinion.

BM

1. I'm giving HER a chance to get HERself out of trouble (;)) because while I think CSL acted somewhat scummy he also acted predominantly like an idiot and if she can coherently defend herself without looking scummy, I'm willing to put more stock into CSL simply being a bumbling townie.

YB is female? *shrugs* Ok...

The above is all valid, but you still havent really answered my concern. WHY are you telling YB this? Why not keep quiet and see what YB does, rather than acting overly encouraging, as you are coming across to me at least?

2. The disclaimer was clarification. I was defending you against earlier accusations, and I was pointing out that wasn't because I had gotten large town-reads off of you, but because the 'case' against you was illogical and unfair.

Ok, gotcha.

And I'm going to have to agree with Neto that I want to see why you think a.) KittyMo is scum and b.) Neto is town.

I think i've talked enough on a. I cant remember my stance on Neto, but i suspect it was because, at the time of writing, i felt his aggression towards me was more newb-town getting antsy than scum.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Just a heads up, I don't post much here on weekends. Simply because I'm not sat at the computer for most of the day.

My best guess on his play is that he is suffering from "damsel in distress" syndrome. (Since I've noticed a disporpotinaly large number of females in this game as opposed to most others I've played (yay!), feel free to back me up on this, as I'm sure you're quite familiar with the signs of this syndrome). I read his reaction as him seeing a female in trouble, and getting overly defensive about helping her out. Regardless of how you feel about such actions (and gender roles and things of that nature), I doubt anyone will argue with me when I say that for a fair number of men, this sort of behavior is is a knee-jerk reaction -- much in the same way that men will open a door for a woman, feel that they need to pay for both on a date, carry a bag/package for a woman, ect. Now, of course, what CSL did was not pro-town in the sense that it can be interpreted as some sort of in-game relationship between the two, plus he is defending a player based on nothing more than gender...but a foolish move does not always imply scum.

Hate to say it, but I think this reasoning of CSL actions is bullshit, I don't see any evidence of CSL defending Maemuki simply because of her gender. Correct me if I am wrong, but he just doesn't see the case on her. The fact she is a female seems inconsequential to that.

When you say i "dont believe fully in my case", what you actually mean is, "i'm not 100% convinced in it", amirite?

Besides, you shouldnt be voting based on my opinion of my case. If YOU believe my case had merit, you vote on that.

It means that you didn't believe what you were saying enough to vote, yet at the same time you were complaining about the lack of wagon on her. Those two things don't add up.

Ah ok. I actually have no idea then. Lol

I'll look into this in a sec.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Ah no, i'm with you now!

Basically, i unvoted Mae because CSL was OMGUSing and my Maemuki vote was going nowhere. Obviously i wasnt 100% sure Mae was scum, but i did want a wagon on her. What else can i say? i bore easily.

BM

[hitogoroshi]

BM that third bullet joke was amazing.

[Battle Mage]

sarcasm?

BM

[hitogoroshi]

What? No. That was incredibly clever and as a person who tries to be funny, I am congratulating you on the joke.

[jasonT1981]

Sorry to ask, but could someone please tell me what 'white knighting' means.

[yellowbunny]

To be quite frank, YB, I asked for bullet points specifically to give you a chance to state a case for BM outside of "I don't like him/he's wagoning me" and what you provided only bolstered BM's accusations. Your bullet points are basicially 1.) BM is spastic and 2.) BM is a jerk. I'm not convinced either of those are scumtells.

I've said it before and I'll stand by it - while BM's style is quite unlike mine, I very much appreciate it for increasing the tempo and eliciting unlikely responses. You can dislike his style all you want but it is not, not, not a clear indicator of scum, no matter how annoying it may be.

I understand your point about his playstyle. And, fwiw, although I think what he did with CSL is inappropriate, I don't have a problem with BM the player -- I think he's amusing, and has been leading this game around by a leash (which takes considerable skill).

Anyway, thinking about what you said, I don't think you can legitimately dismiss my point 1 by saying it boils down to BM being spastic. Being wishy-washy is a known scum tell.

I still have to disagree with you on your argument with my point 2. To me, it just does not make ANY sense that a town aligned player would behave in that manner - it seems like the entire point of his "relationship" posts were designed to upset CSL, not scumhunt.

I still think BM is a good candidate for a lynch today. I agree that its not a slam dunk case, but I think its reasonable simply for lack of more compelling cases. Likewise, I think that the case Kitty put forward is equally reasonable, so I'd be just as satisfied with a ck lynch today. (I'd support a Mae lynch, but I'd prefer to see BM or CK.)

@BM: Your post makes me giggle - you are funny. Btw, I asked you several questions in my opening post, and also followed up with you asking you to answer them. Why are you avoiding my questions?

Changing opinions is a maaassive towntell btw. Unless your accusation is that i'm looking "too townie"?

And I see you are also anti-wiki, but that's okay, cuz I think town can read, and see that it is, in fact, a scum tell. Btw, what motivation does town have to pretend that a scum tell is a town tell? /ponders

Sorry to ask, but could someone please tell me what 'white knighting' means.

Like in fairytales, the white knight always stands up for the weak/injured good guys. So basically in game, someone who acts as another player's champion.

[Battle Mage]

What? No. That was incredibly clever and as a person who tries to be funny, I am congratulating you on the joke.

aww *blushes*

Ya know what, thanks to you, i might actually reply to YB's big rant post TONIGHT.

BM

[Battle Mage]

To be quite frank, YB, I asked for bullet points specifically to give you a chance to state a case for BM outside of "I don't like him/he's wagoning me" and what you provided only bolstered BM's accusations. Your bullet points are basicially 1.) BM is spastic and 2.) BM is a jerk. I'm not convinced either of those are scumtells.

I've said it before and I'll stand by it - while BM's style is quite unlike mine, I very much appreciate it for increasing the tempo and eliciting unlikely responses. You can dislike his style all you want but it is not, not, not a clear indicator of scum, no matter how annoying it may be.

I understand your point about his playstyle. And, fwiw, although I think what he did with CSL is inappropriate, I don't have a problem with BM the player -- I think he's amusing, and has been leading this game around by a leash (which takes considerable skill).

Lol, whats with all the flattery tonight? You KNOW it gets you everywhere! xD

Anyway, thinking about what you said, I don't think you can legitimately dismiss my point 1 by saying it boils down to BM being spastic. Being wishy-washy is a known scum tell.

INCORRECT, INCORRECT, INCORRECT. Anyone who told you that "being wishy-washy" was a scumtell, should be strung up irl. It's one of the few strong towntells left these days...

I still have to disagree with you on your argument with my point 2. To me, it just does not make ANY sense that a town aligned player would behave in that manner - it seems like the entire point of his "relationship" posts were designed to upset CSL, not scumhunt.

Haha, why in the HELL would CSL be upset? I dont think suggesting he might be in a relationship with a member of the opposite sex who he was buddying like stink, is really something he'd be offended about. It's only Maemuki who appeared to have a problem with it-and thats not too surprising, given she wasnt participating in the buddying.

I still think BM is a good candidate for a lynch today. I agree that its not a slam dunk case, but I think its reasonable simply for lack of more compelling cases. Likewise, I think that the case Kitty put forward is equally reasonable, so I'd be just as satisfied with a ck lynch today. (I'd support a Mae lynch, but I'd prefer to see BM or CK.)

Such short deadlines in such an active game is ridiculous. But it does keep things fresh, which i do like.

I'm not aware of any real scumminess from Ckool, so i will iso him.

@BM: Your post makes me giggle - you are funny.

Changing opinions is a maaassive towntell btw. Unless your accusation is that i'm looking "too townie"?

And I see you are also anti-wiki,

That's true. The wiki is hideously out of date. Ask Yos.
How did you know?

but that's okay, cuz I think town can read, and see that it is, in fact, a scum tell. Btw, what motivation does town have to pretend that a scum tell is a town tell? /ponders

Haha, rather than feeding people utter BS, how about you ask around? This applies to everyone. Ask as many experienced players as you can whether being openly wishy-washy is a towntell or a scumtell, and i guarantee you that anyone worth their salt in mafia will tell you the same as i have.

Your last question hits the nail on the head. I think that 98% of players who are Mafia will try and play as honestly as possible as far as they can, on things that can be outright proven or disproven.

Please can i direct your attention to Appenine Mafia, in the New York forum. It's just finished, and we had a discussion like this earlier in that game. Once again, i was under attack for "wishy-washiness", and my stance was the same. It is a towntell. Needless to say, i was town there too.

It's fairly easy to understand why. The vast majority of scumbags-with the possible exception of vets, will play for consistency points, because, for a long time, people DID follow the wiki, and believed that any inconsistency regarding their suspicions would be viewed as scummy. It's for this reason too, that tunnel-visioning was often exploited by scum, in order to let them cruise through the game, without having to answer for much. See Ready Salted Mafia, also in the New York forum, for an example of BM-scum doing this, and getting to a 3 person endgame, only to be hammered by the remaining player. That was a long time ago though, and things have moved on since then.

Being openly inconsistent always attracts attention, and scum dont want lots of attention on them. Especially when they are naturally scummy-seeming players.

But, as i said, don't just take this from me. Ask Yosarian2/ MeMe/ Fonzie.

Sorry to ask, but could someone please tell me what 'white knighting' means.

I'm glad i didnt miss this. Seeing as YB didnt ask, i will.

Jason, why are you "sorry to ask"?

BM

[jasonT1981]

sorry to ask is just a phrase really, I didn't know it and asking makes me come across as dumb.. hence the sorry to ask... its a local thing here probably

[Battle Mage]

sorry to ask is just a phrase really, I didn't know it and asking makes me come across as dumb.. hence the sorry to ask... its a local thing here probably

k, accepted.

BM