Mini 839 -- Mafia Invasion! (Game Over)

[Vi]

Five and a half days.

[Sotty7]

Who else do you suspect other than imaginality?

[Vi]

Who else do you suspect other than imaginality?

You.
Porkens.
I'm not sure if I suspect jammer/charter or not.

I'm pretty confident everyone else is Town.

[DeathRowKitty]

Sorry about my lack of posting over the past couple days. I should be free for my re-read tomorrow and Saturday if not.

[Sotty7]

Who else do you suspect other than imaginality?

You.
Porkens.
I'm not sure if I suspect jammer/charter or not.

I'm pretty confident everyone else is Town.

Well how about you elaborate on your suspicions? Simply counting down the days isn't helpful to anyone.

[Vi]

Who else do you suspect other than imaginality?

You.
Porkens.
I'm not sure if I suspect jammer/charter or not.

I'm pretty confident everyone else is Town.

Well how about you elaborate on your suspicions? Simply counting down the days isn't helpful to anyone.

The only person named in that post that I have not expressed my suspicion of in clear terms is jammer, and that's because while jammer looks terribly scummy, he does a good job of doing that as either alignment. I think I can have a better read on charter when and if he comes around to post.

Counting down days should be a hint for people to

stop stalling until deadline

.

[Sotty7]

Yes, but what have you done lately?

You have alluded to some suspicion of me, I have no idea why. Porkens I have a slightly better idea as to why, still not great. And your imaginality case amounts to "what I said yesterday."

It's not good enough.

You can't sit there and point fingers at everyone for stalling when I look at your posts and don't really see you pushing us anywhere. Almost as if you are content to sit back and count down the days. AKA, posting and pretending you are playing when really there is no substance.

[Porkens]

I'm biting my tongue right now.

I think the imaginality lynch would be best today.

re-read Vi and read between the lines.

[Vi]

Yes, but what have you done lately?

There is not much to do lately because all of the cases coming in (DRK, Cruciare) are against people I believe are Town, and I have said as much.

You have alluded to some suspicion of me, I have no idea why.

Understandable.
I also believe that your vote on me is poorly reasoned and you aren't letting go of it, but that's your prerogative, we've already been over that, etc.

Porkens I have a slightly better idea as to why, still not great.

Porkens is deliberately underperforming in this game, and I'm disappointed nobody else has noticed this. Misrepresenting this suspicion in 293 adds to this.

And your imaginality case amounts to "what I said yesterday."

And a little more too, but this ignores that

imaginality has done little today

. Do you expect a case to get better when the target doesn't post at all?

To answer your next question I do see imaginality's posts against Cruciare and DRK. I think they're terribly misguided at best, but I don't think the basis of his suspicion (pushing to make the D1 dilemma pops vs. jammer) is unfounded.

I look at your posts and don't really see you pushing us anywhere.

Likewise with you and Porkens.

-----

@Porkens: I would be careful where you go with that.

[Vi]

EBWOP:

To answer your next question I do see imaginality's posts against Cruciare

and DRK

.

Reading comprehension failure.

[imaginality]

I had a look at DRK. On the one hand the tone of his posts in general seemed okay, no ultra-scummy statements triggering alarm bells. On the other hand, the way his pushing for a pops lynched intensified when it got close to deadline does seem potentially scummy. TMJ wasn't a bad lynch choice, he wasn't being wagoned solely for being unreadable. So yeah.. I can see DRK as scum who backed off the pops wagon (apparently outing the doc is a good outcome for scum already, whether or not the doc is lynched) but when it boiled down to pops vs TMJ pushed harder for a pops lynch again and against a TMJ lynch.

Cruciare's posts had a few flashes of genuine-town-sounding-ness, like the one I quoted earlier. My intuition says to

Vote: DeathRowKitty

Please unvote Cruciare first.

rather than Cruciare.

As for other players: not greatly keen to vote people who were on the TMJ lynch, but I will give jammer/charter and Porkens a reread soon anyhow.

I have more to say about Vi, but that can wait for now.

[Vi]

I have more to say about Vi, but that can wait for now.

Quick summary?

[Porkens]

@Porkens: I would be careful where you go with that.

I am, this is me being careful.

Porkens is deliberately underperforming in this game, and I'm disappointed nobody else has noticed this. Misrepresenting this suspicion in 293 adds to this.

I defy you to prove that. I may be underperforming, but if so it isn't intentional (not like in that one game where I was doing it on purpose).

Now we fight with knives about 293: There was the outline of a case on me, and people were starting, typically, to say "oh yeah I see it on porkens" and the like. I wanted to nip that right in the bud. I was not being erratic, it was never pointed out where I was being erratic I DID NOT BRING THE TERM ERRATIC into the conversation. It was, in fact, the entire prmis of the things said against me.

[imaginality]

@Vi - given that I think it relates to what you're passing on talking about, are you sure you want me to say more about it?


Re. Porkens, I haven't played with Porkens as town, but his play this game seems a bit different from the one other game I played with him (where he was scum). In that game, he came across as fairly aggressive/sarcastic, trying to muddy the waters and stir up some misplaced suspicions. This game he's seemed somewhat more helpful and looks to be thinking about stuff more.

[Col.Cathart]

Ok, I won't do a wall of text like last time.

People I don't find suspicious: Sotty, Sigma, Porkens (I looked at his meta after my first game with him, and I think his undernperformance is a bit different than his scum playstyle.)

Little suspicions: Jammer/Charter (I can't deny that Jammer did several weird things, on the other hand his play is entirely different from Jammer-Scum I know. Let's see, how Charter will do), Cruciare (I see your points, but I still don't see enough, to really consider him a serious lynch target), Vi (While re-reading I found out, that TMJ's post were almost always connected with Vi in one way or another. Coincidence? Maybe... But maybe not, especially because I don't think that TMJ is cunning enough to fake it all), Ojanen (I never really supported Afatchic lynch, even though he was inactive as hell. Ojanen so far is playing well. We'll see in the future how It'll go)

Heavy suspicions (I'm happy with those lynches): DRK, for things I already said + low activity during D2.

BUT...

unvote

vote: Imaginality

Heh. He was the first person I observed during this reread, and after it, I had a suspicions because of his behavior during D1 (voting TMJ, only to switch to Pops in the very next post. His next posts were also Pops heavy. Oh and possible rolefishing attempt, AND possible quick-lynch attempt alongside DRK [Yeah, I'm stubborn]). During D2, apart from Pops and TMJ flip, which were another brick in the wall against him I couldn't see anything that bad, so I felt that there is something not right with him, but also there was one last hole in this brick wall... AND just now - Here it is. Vote on DRK.

I know this sounds weird in mouth of someone who is the main supporter of DRK lynch, but this is serious scum alarm in my head. Mainly because after going after Cruciare he magically votes somewhere else, when it's visible, that lynching Cruciare doesn't seem to be an option anymore, and it's

coincidentally

landing at other possible lynch target besides him.

I think it's a scum attempt to save his hide. And to answer the obvious question, that will come in my direction in a moment: No, if Imaginality will flip scum, that doesn't mean DRK is cleared in my eyes. Mainly because I don't see anything unusual in scum voting other scum to save his skin. Not when it gives them argument 'Hey look! I helped catching a scum. I can't be considered a bad guy now, right?'

[imaginality]

Hi Col. To address your points:

1. I switched from TMJ to pops because of pops' play on replacing in. Previously YC hadn't looked scummy to me, but pops' play just stank, basically - didn't seem pro-town in the slightest. His flip shows that I was right about that.

2. I still don't understand the rolefishing allegation. If it relates to the scumdoc question, pops had already claimed doc when I asked about that possibility. If I were scum, whether pops is town doc or doc of another scum group hardly matters, either way he's a good nightkill right? So I don't understand what purpose the alleged rolefishing is supposed to have served.

3. I said in my earlier post I'd be voting for DRK or Cruciare, so it didn't 'magically' come out of nowhere, and in my first post today (I think) I said Vi, DRK and Cruciare were my main suspects. The switch from Cruciare to DRK came as a result of seeing some town-tells in Cruciare's posts that I hadn't noticed previously.

And it's hardly coincidence that my vote would land on the other lynch target besides me when pretty much everyone else aside from Cruciare and DRK was on the TMJ wagon and deservedly is under less suspicion today as a result. Given that I think at least one if not both scum (if there are two) wouldn't have been on the TMJ lynch, Cru and DRK really are the right places for me to look. It's a very different situation to pop's "lynch TMJ plsssss" yesterday which was clearly an attempt to deflect the pressure onto the other candidate rather than genuinely scumhunt.

[imaginality]

Oh and (sorry mod!)

Unvote

Vote: DeathRowKitty

[Ojanen]

Info-dump on my pop-wagon top-suspect Imaginality.

The only anti-scum connection point for him is an early Tjoe vote on page 3.
From my catch up notes:
-On one hand, attacking scum is obviously good, on the other, the reason for staying out of Y.C is a little strange and a lynch of YC looks hugely likely at this point after the ridiculousness of the recent posts - doesn't originally seem like a dangerous time to attack TMJ and leaves backdoor open for vote change.

Changes for a L-1 vote on pops after 4 days in his next post (alarm).Things were focusing on pops, pops was focusing on Tmj who was the 2nd biggest wagon. I find it hard to relate to the pov where pops comes off more scummy than Y.C.

By stalemate do you mean "Do we lynch pops now or wait and scumhunt some more?"
If so: I'm not opposed to holding off longer. If we hold off and find a better lynch for today, great. If we hold off and end up lynching pops, we might get some leads by looking at who was reluctant to hammer, if pops flips scum. Equally, if someone's willing to lynch him already, I think that's also useful to see who that is, whether pops flips scum or town.
The fact that my vote is still on pops shows I'm currently happy to see pops lynched if two other players decide they find him scummy enough to vote for. At the moment, with deadline not impending, I'm happy for people to make up their own mind about whether or not they want to do that. I don't yet feel inclined to argue that we should "OMG Lynch him now already!!

This is really, really, really fluffy.
After one has recently put someone to L-1, a part of the expected answer would not be "if we hold off and find a better lynch today, great." There seems to be something strange in the viewpoint that it is equally useul to lynch pops now and after holding off for a while.

Reaction to doc claim quoted next: no immediate unvote but this thought process I never understood, despite unvote and some explanation in the post after this.

Ooh, interesting few hours.
I haven't modded any games here yet and have mostly played theme games rather than normal, so I want to throw a question out here: are scum doctors allowed in normal game set-ups, or are docs in normal games always pro-town?
More later.

I think the contemplation whether to vote pops back looks slightly more like collecting courage/seeing how situation will develop. He already said while voting pops L-1 pre-claim that a pr would have already claimed and Cruciare presents the thought process in 193 quite black and white, and this is the contemplation he states as his reason to wait some before revoting pops. Votes pops in safe looking pops lynch situation. (5 pops - 2 tjoe)
Revote talks about wifom issues with scum choices and the doc claim. Doesn't do dialogue with Porkens who comes out and says a bit after imaginality's vote that he has thought again and because of doc claim pops lynch is suboptimal play.

I think col's point is valid about imaginality switching to DRK today.

Spelling the vote order out:
Post-claim situation stays

popsofctown (Tjoe Min Ja -

DeathRowKitty - jammer - imaginality

- Cruciare)
Tjoe Min Ja (Col.Cathart - popsofctown)

Votes pops-tjoe

:
sigma 3-2
Vi 4-2
imaginality 5-2
Porkens 5-3 (attached with "we should not lynch doc claim, let's lynch TMJ!" -sentiment, turns the momentum, thus very very townish action, I currently quite strongly oppose Porkens -suspicion that has been somewhat around recently)
5-4 jammer
5-5 sotty
6-5 DRK
6-6 sigma
hammer switch 5-7 Vi.

[Ojanen]

col, sigma, Porkens are very very probable town.
sotty is probable town.
I currently have a gut town read on Vi, although he's very very much one to stay careful with.
I have a strongish town gut read on Cruciare despite pro-tmj actions.
I have a moderate gut town read on DRK despite pro-tmj actions and some questionable signals.
I have a big scumread on early jammer but there were late anti-tmj actions.
I have a moderate scumread on imaginality and there clearly pro-tmj actions.

vote: imaginality

(L-2)

[imaginality]

There seems to be something strange in the viewpoint that it is equally useul to lynch pops now and after holding off for a while.

I don't think so. My point was that whether pops got hammered at that point, or whether no-one hammered, we'd be getting useful information either way.

I think the contemplation whether to vote pops back looks slightly more like collecting courage/seeing how situation will develop. He already said while voting pops L-1 pre-claim that a pr would have already claimed and Cruciare presents the thought process in 193 quite black and white, and this is the contemplation he states as his reason to wait some before revoting pops.

I accept that I ummed and ahhed a bit about revoting pops. First game I've been in where someone claimed doc at L-1, so aside from whether or not to believe the claim, I was trying to weigh up the game theory angle of whether it's better to lynch the claimed doc or wait a night to see if they get night-killed first. Pre-claim I definitely hadn't expected him to claim doc, so I hadn't thought about that.

I think col's point is valid about imaginality switching to DRK today.

What do you think about my counterpoint (that I'd already narrowed my choices down to Cru or DRK, and that there are few realistic suspects to vote today in any case)?

[Vi]

Porkens is deliberately underperforming in this game, and I'm disappointed nobody else has noticed this. Misrepresenting this suspicion in 293 adds to this.

I defy you to prove that. I may be underperforming, but if so it isn't intentional (not like in that one game where I was doing it on purpose).

Or have I been mistaken all game and you're not this Porkens?
As for that other game, I thought you were doing pretty awesome in it tbh.

Now we fight with knives about 293: There was the outline of a case on me, and people were starting, typically, to say "oh yeah I see it on porkens" and the like. I wanted to nip that right in the bud. I was not being erratic, it was never pointed out where I was being erratic I DID NOT BRING THE TERM ERRATIC into the conversation. It was, in fact, the entire prmis of the things said against me.

Nnnnnnnno, it wasn't. The only person who said "erratic" was pops, whose words were pretty dismissable even before he flipped. This is what people said before you flipped out about being accused.

[Who do you find most suspicious?]

porkens

I once again find myself agreeing with Porkens post 286. But still I don't know who he finds the most suspicious. The vote on TMJ feels like a settle vote (a vote that is not for a claimed doc) and he didn't name a second suspect when asked. Why the secrecy?

Porkens is almost not on

[my lynch list]

.

I was pressed for a second most suspicious person, so i say porkens and the vague reason for

[his TMJ vote]

. I don't feel the need to develop a strong second cantidate until TMJ flips or i'm lynched or nightkilled anyway. After TMJ flips i have more information.

I endorse this questioning of Porkens by Sotty7. To that end, I would like to add my own question.

The next couple days in the game could drastically change the effects of

[pops']

claim.

How so?

So with your vote on TMJ Porkens, does that mean he is your number one right now? Who's your number two?

Meanwhile what you defended against was:

The case on me seems to be:

erratic behavior (which hasn't been cited, only fabricated)
a pro-town suggestion (too pro-town must be scum)

in short; crap

...so I believe I'm being very reasonable in saying you misrepresented the suspicion against you to the point where it was no longer recognizable (I even had to

ask

you where you got the term "erratic" from).

-----

@imaginality: Go on.

[Col.Cathart]

1. I switched from TMJ to pops because of pops' play on replacing in. Previously YC hadn't looked scummy to me, but pops' play just stank, basically - didn't seem pro-town in the slightest. His flip shows that I was right about that.

Pops neutral flip is very useful for mafia, exactly because of this excuse. All I'm gonna say, is that scum also didn't knew that he's not really town, so this is all matter of perspective. Too bad, that the only way to know for sure is to lynch you.

2. I still don't understand the rolefishing allegation. If it relates to the scumdoc question, pops had already claimed doc when I asked about that possibility. If I were scum, whether pops is town doc or doc of another scum group hardly matters, either way he's a good nightkill right? So I don't understand what purpose the alleged rolefishing is supposed to have served.

Fact: Pops lied about the claim.

Possibility: there's still a real doc in here.

Asking questions like that, and generally discussing about possible setups with Docs could either provoke the real Doctor to step out and Counter Claim Pops, or just tell someone who is interested in knowledge who's doc (--> Mafia), about possibility of someone being a doc just by reading people responses to your question.

3. I said in my earlier post I'd be voting for DRK or Cruciare, so it didn't 'magically' come out of nowhere, and in my first post today (I think) I said Vi, DRK and Cruciare were my main suspects. The switch from Cruciare to DRK came as a result of seeing some town-tells in Cruciare's posts that I hadn't noticed previously.

The problem is, you only mentioned DRK ONCE during the whole day. Ok, that sentence was 'Vi, Cruciare and DRK might be scum', but after that you were after Cruciare, and after the case died (either by Cruciare's towntells according to you, or because you saw that his lynch is impossible at this point IMO. Again it's a matter of perspective), you went after the easiest target around.

And it's hardly coincidence that my vote would land on the other lynch target besides me when pretty much everyone else aside from Cruciare and DRK was on the TMJ wagon and deservedly is under less suspicion today as a result. Given that I think at least one if not both scum (if there are two) wouldn't have been on the TMJ lynch, Cru and DRK really are the right places for me to look. It's a very different situation to pop's "lynch TMJ plsssss" yesterday which was clearly an attempt to deflect the pressure onto the other candidate rather than genuinely scumhunt.

Sotty doesn't seem to have problems with voting Vi, and Vi was in TMJ's wagon. We have votes against Afatchic/Ojanen, and some suspicions of Jammer/Charter. Vi is finding Porkens suspicious. As you can see, we're not down to 3 possibilities, so don't tell me there was no other way.

BTW, what do you think of Vi right now? She's still suspicious in your opinion, like at the beginning of D2?

[Sotty7]

Is re-reading.

[sigma]

After re-reading, I'm just not getting the 'gut town-read' on DRK that some of you seem to be getting. I know this has been mentioned before, but this just looks terrible:

I'm not willing to lynch a claimed doctor Day 1.

I personally prefer not to lynch claimed PRs day 1 unless there's a very strong reason to believe it's a lie.

I don't endorse lynching a claimed doctor Day 1.

And yet he tried to do it anyway, as we all know. His distancing from TMJ at the beginning of the game still looks very suspicious as well.

I think the evidence favors DRK as being more likely to be scum than imaginality.

Unvote

Vote: DRK

I believe that's another L-2 -- someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Sotty7]

Wait, didn't DRK unvote Pops after he claimed and then never vote him again? Are you really trying to say that when he was pushing Pops he should have known he was the doc?