Mini 839 -- Mafia Invasion! (Game Over)

[Vi]

0.0;;

I appear to have been grossly mistaken. It's time for me to play my hand.

First thing: I am not the Cop. Sorry to disappoint.
Second thing: My suspicion of Sotty (or at the time James.Denholm) originated here--

I don't think I'm going to give you a "baseline meta read", or allow you to gain data from me to continue what looks to me like the basis of some pretty complex role-fishing.

Yes it is! (S?)He could be scum, and that could be some complex rolefishing going on there!

If I'm a PR, like hell I'm going to give the scum the slightest clue at this early stage.

...and then he proceeds to NOT answer the survey.
This is the first time that I've tried a survey, and (yes, to my surprise) it actually DID do some successful rolefishing - this is James.D essentially claiming notVanilla. In other words, James.D was either a power role or Mafia.

Okay, so that's fine, no reason to make a fuss over it when it will come out later. I wrote James.D and later Sotty off for D1.
My suspicion of Sotty started D2 when she began tunneling on me. With the knowledge of a Framer, I expected there to be a Cop in the setup. I knew she was not a Cop because she was going after

moi

and the Framer never got a chance to target me. That left scum.
Obviously I couldn't say as much inthread, because if I was

wrong

(which

never

happens ) I would be outing a power role, so when my first attempt to pressure Sotty failed I simply fell back.

Needlessly to say, the thought that she could be some other role never occurred to me. I don't think I've ever been accused of being brilliant.

So imaginality's Neighbor claim then makes the world make sense again.

In addition, my philosophy on Neighbors is and has been for a while now that it functions as a directed one-shot Cop investigation. Given that Sotty is not willing to vote imaginality and vice versa, I am trusting in your mutual competence to say you both believe you are Town, and are probably right about each other.

In summary, my suspicion of Sotty just turned to vapor and I'm not at all interested in an imaginality wagon. Apologies for giving the two of you a hard time.

Unvote: imaginality
Vote: charter

(L-5)
You're replacing my new scummiest player, your intro post accuses two people I'm pretty certain are Town, and your sec for explaining yourself is long since up.
I can more readily believe that Porkens is Town than jammer, and those are my only two remaining suspects, so.

[DeathRowKitty]

Ok, time to point out the obvious and then try to outguess the mod: neighbors have a reputation for being of opposite alignments.

Now, why didn't RC confirm them? Well, there are a few possible reasons:

1. One of the neighbors is scum
2. Confirming them would unbalance the game too far in the town's favor
3. He wants us to try to outguess him to balance the game out for scum
4. He just doesn't like the idea of confirmed masons

Well, let's consider the setup. So far we have

• 1 mafia framer
• 1 survivor
• 10 unknowns

Presumably, we have a cop. The only other game I've been in/seen with a mafia framer had a Godfather as the other scum role and if there are three mafia members, the game could easily be balanced towards scum. If that's the case, town masons might not be so farfetched. At the same time, having them as confirmed masons could make us waste a mislynch or two. If the mafia have just a framer and a Godfather or just a framer and another scum role, town masons could tip the game too far in the town's favor. What it comes down to is this: how prevolent is the idea that neighbors have different alignments?

If the idea that neighbors are oppositely aligned is prevolent, then having neighbors who are actually both town-aligned masons has strong potential to hurt the town. If the idea isn't as prevolent as I seem to recall reading, then oppositely-aligned neighbors would benefit scum more.

Since Vi unvoted imaginality, I'll

vote: imaginality

and, pending a response as to how common scum masons are, I think imaginality is the strongest lynch.

[Vi]

Scum Masons should be a banned role. *long MD argument with Yos2 goes here*

Scum

Neighbors

are obviously possible, but I haven't seen them very often. In addition and in reference to my previous comment, it's much harder to fake being Town in a QuickTopic; scum Neighbors are more likely to off their Neighbor at the first opportunity than actually try to fake being Town at Night.
Since Sotty and imaginality obviously seem to trust each other and I don't think either one is all that gullible, I think it's a safe bet that they're both Town.

Or to put it very simply, your vote on imaginality is delusional at best. *smiles pleasantly while baring fangs*

[charter]

Alright, my reasons for suspecting Vi and Cruciare, sorry this took this long, been busy.

Vi's voting at the end of day one. Post 294, he unvotes Pops and claims he's going to be voting TMJ. Unvoting like that right before deadline is antitown, and his claim of going to vote for TMJ within 24 hours seems baseless and scummy, since it didn't actually happen (he put his vote back on pops) and TMJ was scum. I don't understand why he unvoted at all.

In post 315, he goes back to a pops vote, to make pops the vote leader. He only votes for TMJ right before deadline, after he's tried and failed to get pops lynched.

Cruciare because he pretty much ignored everything relating to TMJ for most of yesterday. Was voting for pops as well.

They both seem like they're working together to clutter the thread with useless garbage. Vi and Cruciare went back and forth for ages at the beginning of the thread, and said absolutely nothing. Along with their preference for pops and avoidance of TMJ, I will

vote Cruciare

[Vi]

Vi's voting at the end of day one. Post 294, he unvotes Pops and claims he's going to be voting TMJ. Unvoting like that right before deadline is antitown, and his claim of going to vote for TMJ within 24 hours seems baseless and scummy, since it didn't actually happen (he put his vote back on pops) and TMJ was scum. I don't understand why he unvoted at all.

This is reaching. "Unvoting like that right before deadline is antitown"? Why is that, in light of the fact that I clearly was going to be around again in the ~24 hours before deadline?
I unvoted pops on Porkens' advice (the Doc claim, while terrible, would eventually come back to incriminate him) but I revoted him because I had no faith in pops' integrity. And hey, I was right. Vindication has taken place.
Yes, I thought TMJ was a scapegoat lynch to take pressure off pops. I was obviously surprised at his flip.

I like my vote *hugs vote*

[Cruciare]

Charter, what do you think of everyone else?

[Ojanen]

I want a sec to think.

unvote

[Ojanen]

Blah, it's too late. I'll sleep and come back in the morning to examine this thing.

[charter]

Charter, what do you think of everyone else?

Porkens and sigma are both obvtown.

I find myself agreeing with most of what Sotty is saying, so town on her.

DRK is kind of scummy I guess, but not as scummy as Vi and Cruciare.

Pretty much null on everyone else.

Vi's voting at the end of day one. Post 294, he unvotes Pops and claims he's going to be voting TMJ. Unvoting like that right before deadline is antitown, and his claim of going to vote for TMJ within 24 hours seems baseless and scummy, since it didn't actually happen (he put his vote back on pops) and TMJ was scum. I don't understand why he unvoted at all.

This is reaching. "Unvoting like that right before deadline is antitown"? Why is that, in light of the fact that I clearly was going to be around again in the ~24 hours before deadline?
I unvoted pops on Porkens' advice (the Doc claim, while terrible, would eventually come back to incriminate him) but I revoted him because I had no faith in pops' integrity. And hey, I was right. Vindication has taken place.
Yes, I thought TMJ was a scapegoat lynch to take pressure off pops. I was obviously surprised at his flip.

I like my vote *hugs vote*

Not thinking a scumbag is scum IS a scumtell, I don't see what you're trying to argue here. You argued FOR a pops lynch, which is scummy, regardless of whether pops was telling the truth or not.

[Vi]

This is reaching. "Unvoting like that right before deadline is antitown"? Why is that, in light of the fact that I clearly was going to be around again in the ~24 hours before deadline?

Feel free to answer this a-ny-time now.

Not thinking a scumbag is scum IS a scumtell, I don't see what you're trying to argue here. You argued FOR a pops lynch, which is scummy, regardless of whether pops was telling the truth or not.

And that seems to be the entirety of the case on me, ignoring everything else that's happened and dismissing the chance that I was half-wrong (not even fully and inexcusably wrong).

You're not even trying. Lynch plz :arrow:

----

Three and a half days. We're not lynching imaginality. Step on it.

[Porkens]

ouuu, naughty neighbors, sexy.

unvote

We still can't assume that at least one of sotty and imaginality are town, really, since they could both be scum.

but but but I'm still going with the "one scum left" idea soooo...

vote: DRK

die, scum.

I also have some pretty neet things to add about this cop business...but I think I'll keep them to myself till tomorrow.

[charter]

Ah, missed that.

Unvoting before deadline is antitown. You know this is true, why pretend you don't? You are taking backwards steps in lynching scum. You are waffling, and not actually taking a stance on the lynch. You are waiting to see where it will be safe to commit, so you don't have to flip flop. You did pretty much all of this even when you were voting, so double the scumpoints.

Even if you were going to be back before deadline, it's scummy. At that point, the votes were pretty much in a deadlock, therefore by abstaining from voting, you are waiting to reassess at a later time, which is scummy.

And that is pretty much the reason I'm suspicious of you. You strawmanning it doesn't make a poor reason to lynch you. It's a good reason.

And I am trying, but my computer is royally fucked up, so I am spending a bit of time fixing it.

[Cruciare]

Charter, what do you think of everyone else?

Porkens and sigma are both obvtown.

I find myself agreeing with most of what Sotty is saying, so town on her.

DRK is kind of scummy I guess, but not as scummy as Vi and Cruciare.

Pretty much null on everyone else.

Right, what I should've said was "what do you think of Imaginality?". Something more than "null" would be nice.

[Vi]

Unvoting before deadline is antitown. (...)

You are taking backwards steps in lynching scum.

Okay, so what

should

I have done in that situation?

You are waffling, and not actually taking a stance on the lynch. You are waiting to see where it will be safe to commit, so you don't have to flip flop.

I'm fairly positive my opinions of pops and TMJ were well-established (probably lying but I can't do anything about it and unrepentantly scummy to the point where I don't know what to do with him, respectively), so it's pretty hard to say that I was waffling with a straight face.

Even if you were going to be back before deadline, it's scummy. At that point, the votes were pretty much in a deadlock, therefore by abstaining from voting, you are waiting to reassess at a later time, which is scummy.

If I were indeed stalling, wouldn't I have come back sometime after someone else had voted for pops or TMJ? And if I were interested in my own personal safety, wouldn't it have been much easier to just follow Porkens' lead and not lynch the claimed Doctor? Instead, I chose to take a risky position. Why? Because I'm going to find the scum, and if someone calls me scummy for it and/or if I get lynched for it that sounds like a terrible job on everyone else's part. Lo and behold, I

was

indeed correct about pops being scum; I've already shown why pushing for the Doctor's lynch would have been too risky for moderate-to-newb-level scum to try, and therefore yes - I believe TMJ was very bussable D1.
Who fits the positions of "people likely to bus TMJ" according to the vote record? Porkens and jammer. Oh, those names again.

Incidentally, charter. With the wagons and politics and hoopla going on with 84 hours to deadline, which wagon(s) will you back today?

-----

Porkens 510 is definitely not easing my mind. On the other hand, it kind of fits the Arilou avatar.

[Ojanen]

@charter: why are you voting Cruciare over Vi?
Why is your reason for heavily suspecting Cruciare identical with what DRK did, yet DRK is significantly less scummy?
I don't find your argument about Vi unvoting convincing, don't really see the deal.
Why are singling out Vi for it? Why is then DRK unvoting pops and not voting for about 160 posts and revoting pops near deadline not worth to mention?
Am I scummy for unvoting yesterday?

Also, actually, do you always scumhunt in pairs?

@DRK:
why did you want to wait until near deadline with pops revote yesterday?
What were the connection flips you thought would be useful in determining jammer's alignment D1?

@Cruciare:
re: your question of total amount of mafia is 2 or 3, I'm unsure.
2+survivor makes somewhat more sense, but 3 isn't impossible.
I was recently in a little Italy game that ended up unbalancedly having 3-man mafia plus sk, so I tend to try and not assume too much.

re: your question about bussing, if there are 2 left, I would fully expect one on the tmj wagon. If one left, it's somewhat less likely but also quite much depends on whether the earlier D1 approach to tmj would be too damning.

[DeathRowKitty]

why did you want to wait until near deadline with pops revote yesterday?
What were the connection flips you thought would be useful in determining jammer's alignment D1?

1) My thinking was pops-scum and TownMJ. I thought pops was far ahead in the voting, or at least far enough away that 1 or 2 sudden votes on TMJ wouldn't put him in any danger of majority (the vote was closer than I thought). I figured that if I was right about the alignments, TMJ had enough potential support that scum would try to make a strong push for his lynch, which would be very telling if pops flipped scum.
2) pops, Porkens, and Vi. Pops' flip in addition to jammer's TMJ-vote make me less suspicious of jammer now.

---

From what Vi's saying, oppositely-aligned neighbors aren't that common? (Can someone confirm or deny this?)

@Sotty
How sure are you of imaginality's pro-town alignment?

[DeathRowKitty]

Also, upon further thought, I'm not so sure that acronym I posted earlier provides a valid reason for not voting Cruciare (I'm still not saying what that reason was), but I'd still prefer not to vote him.

[charter]

Right, what I should've said was "what do you think of Imaginality?". Something more than "null" would be nice.

I think he's neutral. I wouldn't cry over an imaginality lynch today, especially since Sotty is way townier than him, but I'm not going to support it. I'm going to do my best to get you or Vi lynched.

Okay, so what should I have done in that situation?

Should have not unvoted.

I'm fairly positive my opinions of pops and TMJ were well-established (probably lying but I can't do anything about it and unrepentantly scummy to the point where I don't know what to do with him, respectively), so it's pretty hard to say that I was waffling with a straight face.

Unvoting is waffling. You can type whatever words you want, you can even believe them, but voting is the only way to show suspicion.

If I were indeed stalling, wouldn't I have come back sometime after someone else had voted for pops or TMJ? And if I were interested in my own personal safety, wouldn't it have been much easier to just follow Porkens' lead and not lynch the claimed Doctor? Instead, I chose to take a risky position. Why? Because I'm going to find the scum, and if someone calls me scummy for it and/or if I get lynched for it that sounds like a terrible job on everyone else's part. Lo and behold, I was indeed correct about pops being scum; I've already shown why pushing for the Doctor's lynch would have been too risky for moderate-to-newb-level scum to try, and therefore yes - I believe TMJ was very bussable D1.
Who fits the positions of "people likely to bus TMJ" according to the vote record? Porkens and jammer. Oh, those names again.

This is a really poor defense, and you know it. All of it is WIFOM, so not worth the time to debate it.

Incidentally, charter. With the wagons and politics and hoopla going on with 84 hours to deadline, which wagon(s) will you back today?

I am trying to get you or Cruciare lynched.

@charter: why are you voting Cruciare over Vi?

Dunno, just picked him. I think they're both buddies and of equal suspicion.

Why is your reason for heavily suspecting Cruciare identical with what DRK did, yet DRK is significantly less scummy?

...that's a good question. I just went back and looked and DRK seems really bad too. Unvoted pops saying he doesn't want to lynch a claimed doctor, then wasn't voting during the whole debate, then revoted pops tipping momentum onto pops' favor. I can support a DRK lynch as well after further review.

Why are singling out Vi for it? Why is then DRK unvoting pops and not voting for about 160 posts and revoting pops near deadline not worth to mention?

DRK wasn't really waffling, he was unvoting for a significant portion of the day, and when he unvoted it was right after the claim. These aren't really the same situation at all. There really isn't anything scummy about unvoting after someone claims doctor, but stalling right before deadline is scummy.

Am I scummy for unvoting yesterday?

Umm, I don't remember you voting at all yesterday.

Also, actually, do you always scumhunt in pairs?

Not always, but often.

Another post coming soon to explain why we should lynch Cruciare, Vi, or DRK.

[Sotty7]

Sotty7, can you please confirm that in our night chat, DRK, Cru and Vi were the players I expressed suspicion of, while I viewed the rest of you as more likely town?

This is a true story.

My suspicion of Sotty started D2 when she began tunneling on me. With the knowledge of a Framer, I expected there to be a Cop in the setup. I knew she was not a Cop because she was going after

moi

and the Framer never got a chance to target me. That left scum.
Obviously I couldn't say as much inthread, because if I was

wrong

(which

never

happens ) I would be outing a power role, so when my first attempt to pressure Sotty failed I simply fell back.

I will say that the part of my game that really needs improvement is knowing when to let a case go after I build it. Having been screwed over so many times I have become hard headed were that is concerned.

In addition, my philosophy on Neighbors is and has been for a while now that it functions as a directed one-shot Cop investigation. Given that Sotty is not willing to vote imaginality and vice versa, I am trusting in your mutual competence to say you both believe you are Town, and are probably right about each other.

I was worried about imaginality as we went into night. I thought that he could be a SK because of his worry surrounding the mafia docs. To me it doesn't make much sense for a scum team member to speculate about mafia docs, other killing roles would be worried about that however.

I managed to make imaginality list his suspects and reasons for them first and he pretty much took the words out of my mouth on everyone. After that I felt better about him because we seemed to agree.

From what Vi's saying, oppositely-aligned neighbors aren't that common? (Can someone confirm or deny this?)

@Sotty
How sure are you of imaginality's pro-town alignment?

To the first part, I don't have much experience with the neighbor role. In this game there were a couple of neighbors and they all turned out to be town aligned. So take from that what you will.

To the second part, I am not 100% convinced he is town, but like I said, he pretty much took the words out of my mouth in our quick topic. I don't think he should be lynched today.

Also, upon further thought, I'm not so sure that acronym I posted earlier provides a valid reason for not voting Cruciare (I'm still not saying what that reason was), but I'd still prefer not to vote him.

Why not?

[Sotty7]

I'm guessing you missed this with all the neighbor drama.

I do have to ask...

@Col.Cathart: Before you read too much into that, consider--

just realize I haven't

post

here...again

*

haunt

the thread*

good luck to the remaining player...

Bad English FTL.

@Vi, why are you so interested in the setup design?

I believe all of you are wrong. 3 Mafia and a Survivor means that two mislynches theoretically end the game; I would consider it worse than 8-3-SK (a setup that has burned people because Town can lynch correctly each Day after Day 1 and still lose, but at least there's a possibility of crosskills). To my knowledge 9-2-Survivor is considered balanced.

What changed in this time? You were quick to dismiss CC picking up on TMJ talking about the remaining "player". However, according to post 395, you believed since Pops flip that there was only two scum.

Vote: Cruciare

The set up speculation post does it for me. Almost like damage control before imaginality even flips. I'm happy enough to join charter here.

[Vi]

I'm guessing you missed this with all the neighbor drama.

I do have to ask...

@Col.Cathart: Before you read too much into that, consider--

just realize I haven't

post

here...again

*

haunt

the thread*

good luck to the remaining player...

Bad English FTL.

@Vi, why are you so interested in the setup design?

I believe all of you are wrong. 3 Mafia and a Survivor means that two mislynches theoretically end the game; I would consider it worse than 8-3-SK (a setup that has burned people because Town can lynch correctly each Day after Day 1 and still lose, but at least there's a possibility of crosskills). To my knowledge 9-2-Survivor is considered balanced.

What changed in this time? You were quick to dismiss CC picking up on TMJ talking about the remaining "player". However, according to post 395, you believed since Pops flip that there was only two scum.

Good question.
While I believe there is only one scum left I would not take TMJ's broken English as

confirmation

of it.
(However, I believe that Col.Cathart jumping on it as a clue is a pretty solid Town-tell.)

While I acknowledge that Cruciare #33 was not a helpful post (and I've said as much) I disapprove of the Cruciare lynch.

[Col.Cathart]

Sorry guys for the absence on weekend. I had some big personal problems in RL.

I only skimmed the thread once, and only read the most important parts (Imaginality's claim etc) so far, so if someone have some questions to me, please repeat it.

Also, for now I'm going to believe in Imaginality's claim, and will go back to my other suspect

unvote

Vote: DeathRowKitty

More details later, probably tomorrow morning.

[Ojanen]

@charter: why are you voting Cruciare over Vi?

Dunno, just picked him. I think they're both buddies and of equal suspicion.

3 mafia's your assumption then?

Why is your reason for heavily suspecting Cruciare identical with what DRK did, yet DRK is significantly less scummy?

...that's a good question. I just went back and looked and DRK seems really bad too. Unvoted pops saying he doesn't want to lynch a claimed doctor, then wasn't voting during the whole debate, then revoted pops tipping momentum onto pops' favor. I can support a DRK lynch as well after further review.

What. You didn't look at her earlier, despite her being intensely wagoned today?
I thought answer would have been something about some connection between Vi and Cruciare, but this seems more possibly like arbitrary picking of a couple of obvious targets to connect to Tmj.

Before this "further review", what was this based on?

DRK is kind of scummy I guess, but not as scummy as Vi and Cruciare.

Am I scummy for unvoting yesterday?

Umm, I don't remember you voting at all yesterday.

Umm, I meant RL yesterday. I'm not voting at the moment and it's deadline in a couple of days.
---

DRK wasn't really waffling, he was unvoting for a significant portion of the day, and when he unvoted it was right after the claim

. These aren't really the same situation at all. There really isn't anything scummy about unvoting after someone claims doctor, but stalling right before deadline is scummy.

Unvoting is waffling. You can type whatever words you want, you can even believe them, but voting is the only way to show suspicion.

...that's a good question. I just went back and looked and

DRK seems really bad too. Unvoted pops saying he doesn't want to lynch a claimed doctor, then wasn't voting during the whole debate

, then revoted pops tipping momentum onto pops' favor. I can support a DRK lynch as well after further review.

still having hard time understanding what you find scummy and what not.

[charter]

3 mafia's your assumption then?

Yes

What. You didn't look at her earlier, despite her being intensely wagoned today?
I thought answer would have been something about some connection between Vi and Cruciare, but this seems more possibly like arbitrary picking of a couple of obvious targets to connect to Tmj.

I didn't look at her as in depth as Vi and Cruciare, no. I didn't realize she was wagoned a lot today. I didn't say anything about imaginality earlier because I really wasn't sure on him, and I'm not about to make a fencesitting post, I just don't say anything.
I did note a connection between Vi and Cruciare, about how they were spamming the thread with junk at the beginning of the game. Many of the first several pages are wasted with Vi's questions and Cruciare's kind of arguing against it while kind of acquiescing to it.

Before this "further review", what was this based on?

DRK is kind of scummy I guess, but not as scummy as Vi and Cruciare.

His flip flop regarding lynching a claimed doc. I didn't realize before that his revote came to tip the scales to pops' favor.

Am I scummy for unvoting yesterday?

Umm, I don't remember you voting at all yesterday.

Umm, I meant RL yesterday. I'm not voting at the moment and it's deadline in a couple of days.

Well, you're a waffler. However, it's kind of early to say, and this is a difference situation. Why it is suspicious of Vi and Cruciare is because there were two competing wagons, one scum and one not. Today isn't really the same situation. Now, if imaginality comes up scum at some point, you'll be pretty suspect, although Vi will have done the same thing (again).

As for the rest of those quotes, I think waffling, or not being decisive is slightly scummy in general, but right before deadline is much worse. The second quote was in response to Vi's unvote, which was right before deadline, unvoting midday isn't really waffling. DRK's unvote wasn't waffling though, it was in response to the claim because he didn't want to lynch a claimed doc. What I found scummy about him initially was his flip flop on lynching pops. Then, after you questioned me and I went back and looked, I saw the timing of his vote, and I think that's scummy too. Sorry about this confusion.

[Vi]

Many of the first

several

pages are

wasted

with Vi's questions and Cruciare (etc.)

Once again for emphasis,