Mini 839 -- Mafia Invasion! (Game Over)

[imaginality]

I can confirm Sotty said Vi, Cruciare and Ojanen were her top three suspects with Sigma as an outside shot.

Something else interesting from the night discussion: I told Sotty I thought Col.Cathart was a power role (mainly due to his posts when the role PM discussion was going on). Call it wifom if you will but if I were scum I'd have killed Col rather than Ojanen. (And the fact Col didn't get NKed also makes me feel even surer Sotty is town.) So, I definitely believe Col's cop claim.

Re. me rolefishing about Vi - charter is on the money with why I pushed for Vi to claim or deny being cop. Vi's denial increases my suspicions because there's definitely evidence of soft-claiming there. The modkill was a bit out of the blue so I didn't get the chance to comment on Vi's response. However to be honest, the yesterday-me would probably have been keen to stick with a DRK lynch anyhow - from the start of yesterday I argued that the lynch should be someone from the pops wagon.

Cruciare and I are the only ones left from that wagon now. A Cruciare lynch would not be terrible today, but my gut still says he's town, and that plus a day 1 reread has led me to come right around in my thinking about the events of D1. TMJ was really kinda awful, and pretty sure to get caught at some point, so even though he was a framer I can definitely see scum having good motive to bus him rather than get tied to him and dragged down with him.

I can actually see sigma as being a scum neighbour in the sigma-Cruciare pairing. I looked back on sigma's voting record and it doesn't look great, and I disagree with Vi in 591 - sigma only joined the TMJ wagon when it was inevitable TMJ would get lynched. There's minimal chance of scum fake-claiming neighbours imo, if either get lynched and flip as scum but not neighbour, then that's the game.

So at the moment for me it's Vi or sigma for my vote. Thinking of pairings, if there are two scum left, I can see Vi-Cruciare or Vi-sigma but not Cruciare-sigma, so that's an extra reason to go for Vi over sigma.

Vote: Vi

Hmm but that puts Vi at L-1.

Unvote

Don't want a possible lynch quite yet, when there might be more stuff we can get from today first. Particularly as Cruciare hasn't checked in yet.

sigma, who were your suspicions N1? And who did Cruciare suspect at that point?

[Cruciare]

How is Cruciare's play text book doc play?

It's not, really. I've said many many

many

times that my objection to Pops' claim was not objective. Vi obviously didn't get what I really meant. I am neighbours with Sigma, as he said. There was no need to counter-claim neighbours because two neighbour pairs is far from impossible. I wanted to claim yesterday because of the 'hop off the Imaginality wagon' attitude all of you seemed to have after he claimed, which is a pretty bad reason to drop suspicions IMO. But doing that with Sigma not around wouldn't have been very fair (for Sigma), and my preffered lynch at that point was DRK anyway.

Vote: Imaginality

Sotty, Imaginality, I propose we post all of our night-talk in-thread. I've asked the mod, and he said there's no problem with it. What do you say?

[Sotty7]

Yeah imaginality also asked Red the same question back on night one. I have no issue with it personally. How would you purpose we go about posting ALL the night talk? I don't know about you two but we have a couple of pages of stuff and it would take a while to stick them all in quotes and what have you.

That aside, with both neighbors believing in their respective partner, doesn't that make Vi the best lynch?

[Vi]

How is Cruciare's play text book doc play? What do you think of the neighbor claim now?

Everyone on the pops wagon but Cruciare unvoted pops after he claimed Doctor.
Cruciare expressed obvious distrust of the Doc claim, going so far as to ask if it would be okay to want to lynch him anyway.
Yes, those are screaming "I know pops isn't a Doctor".

As far as the Neighbor claims, I don't see a reason to doubt them all - as far as being Neighbors goes.

I don't think that you believe your own reasons for voting me.

That aside, with both neighbors believing in their respective partner, doesn't that make Vi the best lynch?

...and this political justification for my lynch just bolsters that.

-----

Re. me rolefishing about Vi - charter is on the money with why I pushed for Vi to claim or deny being cop. Vi's denial increases my suspicions because there's definitely evidence of soft-claiming there.

Either English is not your first language after all, or you completely missed my explanations

at length

of what I've been talking about by "desperate measures".

I disagree with Vi in 591 - sigma only joined the TMJ wagon when it was inevitable TMJ would get lynched.

At the time of sigma's switch, the vote count was 6-5 -

pops'

favor. TMJ was only inevitably lynched

because

of sigma's switch.

Vote: Sotty7

(L-4)

[Sotty7]

I don't think that you believe your own reasons for voting me.

That aside, with both neighbors believing in their respective partner, doesn't that make Vi the best lynch?

...and this political justification for my lynch just bolsters that.

This is just BS.

I believe my reasons for voting you, we just have the neighbors pointing fingers a little at each other. I don't see why Cruciare is voting for imaginality over you.

[Vi]

If you believe in your own reasons for voting me, then why was your response (597) to my defense (596) about something entirely tangential?

[Sotty7]

The fact you are not the cop while dropping several soft claim hints.

I'm not the Cop. However, I (thought I) deduced three things that I didn't want to pull out unless I thought it would go somewhere.
*Sotty7 is a power role, or scum.
*sigma is most likely the Cop.
*Cruciare is almost certainly the Doctor.
This is why I've been on Cruciare's side the whole time - his play is textbook Doc play. And that's also why I think the scum can't be that experienced for not offing him considering that there have been a few people (DRK and myself, OTH) who were pretty explicit that they had veiled reasons for wanting him alive.

Okay, I asked you about the doc/neighbour claim. It's one thing if your thought Cruciare was the real doc, now it's come out that he wasn't, what do you think about his constant doubting of the doc claim now? How is this tangential?

The complete no sell of DRK's claims here and here

You don't think that the point about the name of the Vanilla role held

any

merit? I must disagree, and surely you would not as well--

Hrmm... The football stuff is what made me say DRK wasn't the lynch, but I see charter's point about name claim now. Not good.

Yet post 543 is more of the role PM but without the true name (at least the one in my PM) Then Sigma posts and says another name that is different to mine.

Incidentally, sigma (apparently?) didn't know the name of the V. Townie role in this game either... which paired with his claim makes sense.

At this point I was under the impression that Red had given all the townies different names for townies. Sigma said Villager, DRK said townie, neither of which I have in my PM. I don't get your argument. At the time I thought it was a lead, it was proven later that was wrong. I just went back to my gut read of DRK tunnel as townie play.

However you just no sold everything to do with DRK's claim like you knew the townie PM wasn't helpful. Other players reacted like I did, even if we all came to differing opinions. You just ignored it. THAT'S my point.

[imaginality]

Re. me rolefishing about Vi - charter is on the money with why I pushed for Vi to claim or deny being cop. Vi's denial increases my suspicions because there's definitely evidence of soft-claiming there.

Either English is not your first language after all, or you completely missed my explanations at length of what I've been talking about by "desperate measures".

To clarify, increases my suspicions that you're scum, not that you're cop. The desperate measures comment fitted with portraying yourself to be an unrevealed cop because you'd linked that remark to whether there was one scum left or two. Two scum left = cop dies if he comes out, one scum left = cop can come out without fear to get the last scum lynched.

At the time of sigma's switch, the vote count was 6-5 - pops' favor. TMJ was only inevitably lynched because of sigma's switch.

Disagree. Yes, it was 6-5 towards pops but with afatchic absent and having clearly been preferring a TMJ lynch. As sigma said at the time:

Unofficial vote count is 6 on pops to 5 on TMJ.

afatchic, if he ever shows up, has indicated that he disagrees with a pops lynch, which means we're realistically looking at a TMJ vote from him.

So basically, we're looking at a game of chicken to see which TMJ/pops voter blinks first in the face of a no-lynch. That's not good.

Given that quite a few people on the TMJ wagon had expressed reluctance to lynch a claimed doc, the chances of someone switching from TMJ to pops were a lot less than switching from pops to TMJ. That's what I meant by inevitable: if sigma hadn't switched to TMJ, someone else would have. I think sigma saw that and decided to get the credit for it by making the switch himself.


Sotty, I'm happy to post our night-talk, won't take too much effort to do so. Give me a few mins.

[Sotty7]

Knock yourself out.

[imaginality]

Here's what Sotty7/James.Denholm and I said to each other during the nights so far. I've numbered each comment for ease of reference. I've left out any communications to and from the mod.

-----

Night 0 we said this:

1 imaginality:

Hello again. Just to mention, I've played with RedCoyote on EpicMafia quite a bit in the past. The set-ups there are fairly power-role-heavy, I'm interested to see if he's taking the same approach here or going for something more sedate.

2 imaginality:

Oh, and I know this is probably stating the obvious, but let's be up-front about it: the fact that we're neighbours in no way guarantees that we're both pro-town.

By chance alone I think there's a good chance you're town (and same goes for me, from your perspective), but I don't expect you to share your role or any such details with me unless and until you feel confident I'm town. And vice versa.

Looking forward to working with you though.

3 James.Denholm:

Yep, sure. Just about to go and sleep, but I'll say more tomorrow (Aussie time)

4 imaginality:

Oh, you're in Oz? Cool. I'm just across the ditch from you here in NZ.

I haven't played as mason or neighbour before, but I think we can hopefully use it effectively, both to increase our confidence that the other of us is town, and to exchange ideas on who is scum.

Do you think we should breadcrumb our connection?

5 James.Denholm:

Huh, a neighbour in real-life... Sorta. You get where I'm coming from.

Anyway, me neither. In fact, all my previous games have been Newbies, so... Yeah. I'm not sure if breadcrumming our neighbour would be a good idea, it could sort-of make it look like we might be scum-partners, I think. Probably not. You know what I'm talking about.

6 James.Denholm:

Also, a roleclaim this quick? My, my. I'm going to have to lynch you now. Sorry about that.

7 imaginality:

lol, roleclaim? You mean the mason thing? Yeah, I just meant that I haven't had a pro-town night-talking role before of any type.

I agree that if we clearly work together during the day (e.g. always pressuring the same players) that could make it look like we're scum-buddies, but I don't think bread-crumbing a connection between us would do; I think scum would be fairly unlikely to hint who their partners are. Because breadcrumbing another player's name could only really mean you're neighbours or masons, or possibly lovers. Neighbour is a kinda weak fake-claim to set up, and claiming masons would tie them together - if one gets proven scum the other goes down too. Similarly with lovers.

I can see a couple of reasons to bread-crumb:

1. If either (or both) of us has a power role, and shares the results with the other, it lets the other provably claim neighbour and reveal the results if the PR dies before he claims. Or if the PR claims, proving we're neighbours could be useful as it would allow the neigbour to confirm that the results the PR claims match what the PR told the neighbour previously.

2. If a cop spots the breadcrumb they might assume we're masons and investigate someone else. Which is good because we have a good chance of catching each other out anyhow if either of us is scum, so it's good if the cop focuses on more useful targets.

3. Or if neither of us are power roles but scum see the breadcrumb, they might assume we're masons and kill one of us. Which is good if it draws the nightkill away from more important pro-town roles.

So, I'm leaning slightly towards bread-crumbing, but we should agree together one way or the other. No point just one of us doing it!

8 imaginality:

Okay, unless you say otherwise before game starts, I'll go along with not bread-crumbing. Look forward to talking with you after Day 1 and pitting our wits together to crack this game wide open!

9 James.Denholm:

Breadcrumb away! Just of curiosity, what does a mason do? I'm just a poor townie, and I've never encountered the term before.

-----

Night 1 we said this:

10 imaginality:

Hi Sotty7. Thanks for replacing in for James.Denholm. Actually I have to say I was starting to wonder a little about him, but your posts have struck me as more clearly pro-town.

If you have any concerns about my play feel free to ask me anything you want.

More from me soonish.

11 imaginality:

By the way, to expand a bit more on my in-game answer to your question: I didn't find Vi's case on me scummy for his/her case against me in particular. But, as for Vi's play in general, I have had a slightly 'hmm' vibe about Vi's play this game. Compared with the other game I was in with Vi, where he/she was clearly town, I get more of a sense of possible hidden motives here. That's just a gut reaction though, so rather than comment vaguely on it Day1 (which also, given Vi's case against me, could have been regarded as OMGUSsy) I figured I'd make sure to re-read Vi's posts during this night period and watch Vi more closely tomorrow.

12 Sotty7:

Oooh quick topic fun

I'm just passing though at the moment so I don't have time for a detailed post, just one quick question... Are you scum?

In seriousness, I'm pretty sure Vi is scum at this point.

13 imaginality:

lol... well, since you ask, I'm... oh, the suspense... town!

Interesting to see TMJ flip as framer. Doesn't guarantee a cop, but does point towards it, and arguably lessens the likelihood of the cop having non-sane sanity (unless there's more than one cop around).

14 imaginality:

I plan to re-read tonight (NZ time). A couple of things in the meantime. First, I breadcrumbed our neighbourlyness with the capital letters of my first post.

Second, my read of Porkens' isoposts 15 and 16 is that he thinks you and DRK might be scumbuddies or masons. I notice DRK gave a neutral opinion of you when Porkens asked. You didn't directly offer an opinion of DRK to Porkens (though your post 2 suggests you see DRK as scummy). Was there a reason for not answering Porkens directly or did you just not see Porkens' question?

15 Sotty7:

Porkens asked James those questions. If he wanted me to answer them when I replaced in I would have thought he would have asked me.

I did think that DRK was scummy because of his tunneled approach to Pops and his quick switch to Jammer after the claim. But I thought that he started to pull away from Pops before the claim. But when I looked back again I saw I got the time line wrong so I didn't mention it. I still find him somewhat scummy, but he could easily be a tunneled townie.

I was pleasantly surprised that TMJ flipped framer of all things. In my opinion this makes bussing much more unlikely because of his powerful role. So his wagon v Pops tells us A LOT and I love it.

Presence of a framer makes me 99% sure of a cop.
Vi is still scum, encouraging the wagon of the claimed doc while keeping her vote off it. Plus TMJ sheeping Vi's early vote of Y.C just screams of scum following.

Who are your suspects?

16 Sotty7:

Oh and nice bread crumbing, I'll try something like that in day two

17 imaginality:

The short of it:

My main scum suspects now are Cruciare, Vi and DRK, but if pops doesn't get NKed I'll be keeping an eye on him too.

More detail:

afatchic - not very active but reading her posts, I really can't see her being scum unless pops is also scum

Col.Cathart - would he bus TMJ that hard day 1 as scum? I don't see it. Pretty sure he's town

Cruciare - tried to steer it to a pops vs jammer choice and away from TMJ. And softened his position again pops to 'more gut than logic' when pops looked likely to be lynched, an attempt to deflect suspicion onto others if pops flipped town? There's also a bit of 'I don't know' avoidance of commenting on stuff at times. I suspect Cruciare could be scum

DRK - the 'pops or jammer' thing stands out again, similar to Cruciare though he made more of a case against pops than Cruciare did. I agree with you DRK could be scum and I'm curious about the possibility of a DRK and Cruciare pairing

jammer - didn't like his L-1 vote on pops, but the way he switched to the TMJ wagon seemed genuine, I now think he's more likely town than scum. Also jammer-town would fit with Cruciare-scum and/or DRK-scum

pops - I still think his play after replacing in fully justified a wagon on him, even after his claim. If he survives the night, hmm... I also wonder if he is town, why scum didn't get pops lynched over TMJ, given how close it ended up? (Unless the scum were all already on the pops wagon of course.) Not tooo worried about pops now though as he can hardly stay under the radar so if he's scum I think we'll pin him down in the end

Porkens - the other game I played with Porkens he was scum and I fairly easily picked up on that. He seems more pro-town this game. So I've just gone with my gut with that and see him as town. A quick re-read didn't throw up any alarm bells

sigma - posts seem genuinely scum-hunting, I get a town feel

Vi - want to do a detailed re-read but as per my post below, I can see an argument that Vi=scum

18 imaginality:

Further to: "I also wonder if he is town, why scum didn't get pops lynched over TMJ, given how close it ended up? (Unless the scum were all already on the pops wagon of course.)" - looking at the votecount, that would fit with any or all of Vi, Cruciare and DRK being scum. Vi only switched to pops when it was either that or no lynch.

If my theory is right, I expect that the scum will try to push a case on me tomorrow since one of them bussing the other seems kinda risky when they're already one down, and they don't have a whole lot of other logical targets given the TMJ=framer flip. We'll see.

What do you think of my reads, any you particularly agree/disagree with?

19 imaginality:

Re-reading Vi, she did express a reasonable amount of suspicion of TMJ, though yes, while also encouraging the pops wagon. Do you think Vi was deliberatly bussing TMJ from mid-day onward or just distancing - not expecting TMJ to end up as the lynch?

20 Sotty7:

I'm starting to think I might have been wrong about Cruciare. If Vi does flip scum then their exchange over his vote could be coaching of sorts. Pretty weak but can't rule that out. Then there is the WIFOM over Cruciare's last ditch appeal to get Pops lynched at the top of page 16. Would scum go that far out of their way to save a buddy? Maybe. That is higher considering TMJ was a framer. The only thing is that all those people said she was scummy but no one could really say why, you know what I mean?

Sigma is probably town. He switched his vote at such a key moment in the wagon, it makes zero sense for him to do so as scum. He could have simply not posted and no one would have said much I doubt.

Porkens is also a town read for me. Early voter for TMJ when I pushed him, he could have put his vote anywhere else at the time.

Col.Cathart I'm not sure on. He's very wishy washy in this game, which is not the town meta of his that I know. But he was an early and constant vote on TMJ. After the flip, he feels more town to me than he did. There is a chance he is scum.

jammer and afatchic lurked in the face of the deadline. I have an issue with a jammer and him throwing his vote around and afatchic just needs to post more. Not sure what to think of him. jammer is more likely to be scum here I think.

DRK is a tough one. Calling for an early and quick lynch is bad, I will have to see what he does at the start of day two.

Pops is the doc. I'm about 99% sure of that now with how the two wagons went and TMJ's flip. Probably will die tonight if the scum don't have a roleblocker.

Vi is my highest scum read at this point and needs to die.

21 Sotty7:

"Do you think Vi was deliberatly bussing TMJ from mid-day onward or just distancing - not expecting TMJ to end up as the lynch?"

Yes.

No offense to TMJ, but he wasn't the greatest player, he was pretty awful. In my eye, Vi needed to slap him down after he sheeped her early vote of Y.C. I will re-read but I don't remember a significant amount of time where Vi was voting for or overly pressuring TMJ over any other player.

22 imaginality:

Re. Vi coaching Cruciare, there are a few other exchanges between Vi and Cruciare earlier that could possibly read as Vi prompting Cruciare to comment in particular ways (e.g. the 'newbishness' thing about TMJ).

Also there was their 254-255 double hit on Col.Cathart.

Re. people finding Cruciare scummy: after a skim (alt-F4 searching for 'Cruciare' from page 9 onwards) it looks to me like the only people to really express much suspicion of Cruciare were:

-afatchic
-Porkens (in 293 "Cruciare wouldn't be terrible [as a lynch]")
-Vi who later said s/he was satisfied with Cruciare's answers
-sigma right at the end

I think the case against Cruciare looks a lot clearer now post-TMJ-flip than during the day, and none of those players who expressed suspicion of Cruciare look scummy to me, aside from Vi (but I don't think s/he was ever really seriously pressing Cruciare, just doing a bit of distancing, it's not like Cruciare was ever likely to be the lynch).

I think we could be onto something with Vi and Cruciare as a possible pairing.

23 Sotty7:

We pretty much seem to agree as far as the players go, that makes me feel like we are probably both townies which is good.

Right now I am just interested to see who is killed. I think the scum have to kill Pops even if they don't have a roleblocker, he will be harder to lynch than yesterday.

24 imaginality:

Yep, from the scum's perspective, it's a massive risk leaving pops alive if he's town, especially given that we almost certainly have a cop. The only scenario I could see them doing so is if they have a roleblocker. In that case, they might leave him alive in the hope the/a cop comes out and they can block the doc, kill the cop N2 and push to lynch pops D3.

Also, it's not like there's anyone who's especially shiningly clearly town to kill instead of pops.

25 imaginality:

I agree, I'm feeling comfortable about us both being townies.

26 Sotty7:

I'm just waiting on the day now. Can't think of anything else we should chat about.

27 imaginality:

Likewise, I think we've covered the important stuff. Hopefully we both survive the night and can put a bit of combined pressure on Vi and Cruciare in particular.

As for breadcrumbing, go ahead, feel free.

----

Night 2 we said this:

28 Sotty7:

Hrmm... That was interesting.

DRK stepped over the line at the end there, but did you notice Vi's complete no sell of his claim? Do you think that was because she knew that the scum got the townie PM?

Porkens and charter = Town. Sigma seemed overly concerned about getting DRK mod killed as well. Gave me pause for thought a little there.

If Vi doesn't die tonight I will be voting her and keeping my vote on her. She soft claimed a power role I can't see the scum keeping her alive if she isn't one of them.

I really didn't like Cruciare's question "Sotty, terribly sorry to digress, but could you list all the people you think are less scummy than Imaginality?" which is why I ignored it. Just rubbed me the wrong way.

I really hope the game isn't broken though

Thoughts?

29 imaginality:

Sotty: Firstly, sorry about my slackness over the past game day, which led to me getting wagoned. (Annoyingly the sine wave of real life commitments and the sine wave of mafia game commitments seem to be in phase rather than balancing each other out... Will be making more of an effort day 3 though.)

Hopefully being openly neighbours and having a town read on each other might help. Now scum have to decide whether to kill one of us or hunt for power roles.

Initial thoughts:

I agree on Porkens and charter being pretty likely town. Something about Col's posts today make me want to re-read him, but I'll probably end up still concluding he's also town.

Re. Vi, I was pretty sure Vi was setting up a cop claim, either as cop or as scum, and was kinda surprised that she backed off from doing so. Scum-Vi could have claimed cop and not been too worried about counterclaims (multiple sanity cops would be believable). Definitely re-reading Vi again tonight.

Re. sigma, I've just re-read sigma's other posts and he definitely looks scummier than I thought N1, especially his voting record. He only switched to TMJ when it was inevitable TMJ would get lynched.

A few of Cruciare's posts made me doubt my previous read. But now I know DRK isn't scum, I'm leaning scum on Cruciare again because unless scum planned to bus TMJ from the start of Day 1, when it got down to the wire as a choice between their scumbuddy or pops, pops would've been too tempting a lynch target to pass up, I'd've thought.

So for me it's two from sigma, Vi and Cruciare at the moment. Or possibly just one of them scum with another neutral role around. (I thought Vi might be lyncher with me as target, but I doubt that now.)

More later.

30 Sotty7:

I think I might die tonight. If not me, then Vi. (maybe sigma?)

If Vi is a townie I am leaning towards Ojanen or Cruciare (more likely the latter)

Sigma was a little off towards the end of that day, but check out post 544. I still think he is likely town. I do find the actively looking for a mod kill somewhat anti town, BUT DRK did make it obvious, I don't think Red had any choice but to modkill him.

I will say that I thought Sigma might be the cop. He was waiting in little Italy right before the game opened up as Red was writing up the night scene. I know this because I was eager to see if I was dead or not and so was also waiting for Red to open the game. Now either Sigma is in love with this game and has no life (like me) OR he received a PM at the end of the night that brought him to the boards to camp out and wait for Red.

I really wanted to see what he posted when the game opened as was ready to wagon who ever he voted for in his post. However his opening post was a really weak lurker vote of afatchic which he later abandoned. So, I could be off with the power role assumption. Some thing to keep in mind.

31 imaginality:

Given that everyone got the townie PM and flavour, I don't think sigma's 544 is a towntell. Your point about timing is interesting, but he's also in Open 165 by the looks of it, so maybe was just reading that game?

If you or Vi don't die, I could see Col dying to be honest. His 'oh yeah I see it now' sounds like a possible PR who didn't see the name difference since his PM says cop or whatever instead of townie.

One problem with my Cruciare scum theory, if he is scum then I'm not sure what to make of 533/542. Would scum really defend DRK, especially when he could well have ended up as the lynch if we didn't lynch DRK? If anything charter's post 537/539 would be a more plausible mafia-wanting-to-seem-town-and-get-DRK-lynched-as-a-bonus post.

32 Sotty7:

Hmm I see what you mean as far as Cruciare and even cc goes. That is interesting. Sigma's 544 just felt like a townie reaction to me, but how knows I could be wrong there as well.

Who are your top three suspects at this point?

33 imaginality:

Honestly it seems less clearer now than it did at the start of day 2. My top four are sigma, Vi, charter (more for jammer's play than his own) and Cruciare (because if he's not scum then there were no scum voting pops).

34 Sotty7:

My top three are: Vi, Cruciare and Ojanen. Maybe an extreme outside chance of Sigma being scum. Everyone else I am happy enough to call town for now anyway.

The game opens again today, if I remember I will see if I spot Sigma in the forum waiting again

[sigma]

Sotty noticing me hanging out in Little Italy right before D2 made me I was watching both this game and the other one, I believe -- I can be obsessive about this game sometimes...

Given that quite a few people on the TMJ wagon had expressed reluctance to lynch a claimed doc, the chances of someone switching from TMJ to pops were a lot less than switching from pops to TMJ.

Quite a few people had expressed reluctance to lynch TMJ (Cruciare and DRK for example). It could have easily gone the other way. A no-lynch could have possibly happened too, if everyone waited for someone else to switch. I don't think this is as clear-cut as you think.

sigma, who were your suspicions N1?

afatchic, then DRK. also expressed suspicion of you, jammer and porkens, I believe. I'll let Cruciare do the night talk recap, since it was his idea, and you can see for yourself.

[Cruciare]

Me and Sigma were like in completely different time zones or something, so we didn't have as many talks. Did you guys have a QuickTopic? We talked through PM. =/

-----

Night 0:

1 sigma:

Hello neighbor. I'm trying out this fancy night-talk ability.

My role PM doesn't say anything about your alignment, which I assume means you could be scum. I've never played a mason/neighbor type role, so I don't know how it really works, especially for unconfirmed alignments. I guess we'll be trying hard to convince each other of our towniness during the night.

What's your mafia experience like? This is only my second game here. I won as scum in Newbie 806; check it out if you're interested in getting an early meta read on me.

2 Cruciare:

I've played to completion a few Mafia games (between 3 and 6 I think), only one of them on this account: Mini 662 which I won as scum. I think my play was pretty embarassing though, so I'm not sure I could honestly say "check it out". As for the other games, I remember I lost once as town in a Newbie game, lost once as scum in a Mini Theme, and won once as town in Texas Justice. I don't remember the others. =P

Your mentioning of non-confirmation of alignment is a good first impression of you, but my eyes will remain asquint. I've read a bit of your other game, and I have some idea of what you're like as scum (not a play style I like to be honest). I do hope you're not scum though. Anyway, I do think the night-talk is a lot like normal talking in the thread, with the exception of A) It's only the two of us, and B) It's at night when the general populace isn't talking. It could be useful for discussing lynch results and/or stuff for the following day, but if I can't trust you it does make it a little less useful (as we can't be completely open with each other).

It's my first time playing this kind of role too, so let's have fun. =D

3 sigma:

Read through your game quickly. Not sure why you'd say it's embarrassing; you guys won after all! I'll be interested to see how your play in this game differs from then and how it doesn't.

You mentioned that you didn't like my playstyle as scum -- in what sense do you mean? That the style I used personally irritates you, or that it seemed scummy? Or something else? Just curious.

Can't say that I've gotten any major town or scum tells from your response. I guess that being willing to talk is a minor town-tell, so that's a small point in your favor. Looking forward to talking with you after we've had some gameplay; it'll be interesting getting extra opinion's on the day's events.

4 Cruciare:

I'm particularly talking about your D1 play. It didn't seem scummy, but it was pushing too hard too early on in my opinion. I guess it made sense as scum, because you wanted to take an offensive position and it didn't really matter who amongst the townies was lynched. But it was like you were interrogating everyone, being very liberal with your finger-pointing. From a town point of view, there should be a sense of differentiation between other players' comments which show inexperience/ignorance/carelessness, and those which truly point towards scum.

-----

Night 1:

5 Cruciare:

Hello neighbour, it's been a while.

This post looks scummy to me. The facts are just wrong -- the mafia may want to play WIFOM games by not killing pops if he's the real doctor, as I've said before. Also, lynching PRs is a lot different from seeing them night-killed -- lynching a doctor gives the mafia a free shot at any other power roles or extreme pro-town players.

Seeing TMJ's alignment, I stand corrected. Before this, I did have an argument as to why Pops was the better lynch, but it's mostly obsolete now I guess. First of all, I personally don't think the scum would risk the doctor living for too long just to play WIFOM games. Now that TMJ flipped scum, they kinda have to kill him. See, if TMJ had flipped town and Pops did not die N1, think about what our response would be D2. Is he scum or WIFOM doctor? Would it ever have been conclusive? That's why I thought Pops was the right lynch D1, as opposed to the largely read-not-getting TMJ. I guess my view had been clouded by my biased desire to get Pops lynched, thus failing to seriously consider TMJ. You have a point about the free nightkill thing, however my logic there was that at that point in the game, the likeliness of scum hitting another power role was only somewhat higher than us lynching another a power role instead (yes, I'm saying TMJ could have been a power role). I failed to consider extreme pro-town players, so forgive me on that. But moving on. My entire scumdar has to be turned upside down now.

No doubt you are suspicious of me, but I'd like to hear your opinion as to the presence (or non-presence) of scum on TMJ's wagon, and which ones they would be?

6 sigma:

That was a nice flip:)

I just felt like your argument was downplaying the seriousness of lynching a pro-town doctor, which is why I'm posted. However, I'm with you on pops having been scummy, and I still feel that TMJ was a shot in the dark that we got lucky on. I think we probably have to assume pops is town for now -- I don't think pops would have fixated on fellow scum if he were scum like that.

Scum on TMJ's wagon? Probably at least one. Porkens and jammer are the ones who jump out at me. Porkens' late defense of pops smelled odd to me, as though he was trying to come in late enough to not affect the mislynch of town-pops, but still distance himself from that mis-lynch. Even if pops doesn't get mis-lynched, he also looks good being on the TMJ wagon, so no big deal. Maybe that's far-fetched, but his play is a bit odd to me.

jammer, as we know, has been suspicious for a while, and was fairly late onto the TMJ wagon. That said, he had a clear chance to hammer pops and didn't. Maybe he was afraid to make the switch, but I'm not certain his voting strategy made sense as a scum player.

I think there's a scum on pops' wagon, too, and I will probably be questioning that crowd more closely (imaginality, DRK, and possibly vi, who counts as a pops voter with her very late switch.)

Obviously you're part of that crowd too, but this conversation should fill my "questions for Cruciare" quota for now.

Who do you think might be scummiest of imaginality, DRK and vi?

7 Cruciare:

I think Jammer has gone down considerably on my suspicion list. The fact that not only was Pops (presumably) actually a doctor, but TMJ was also scum is why I'm unsure. It's understandable making yourself look innocent by not jumping on the really-scummy-yet-must-be-a-doctor (from scum point of view) wagon, but if the price of that is getting one of your own scumbuddies lynched when the doctor could easily have been lynched instead, scum would have to be really confident in themselves to pull something like that. If Jammer was scum, I would assume he wouldn't be on the TMJ wagon in the first place (Y.C.'s wagon formed first, long before the doctor claim), not to mention staying on that wagon until deadline. This actually applies to all the people who wanted a TMJ lynch over a Pops one, which is why I asked you about this. Jammer is a special case, because as you said, he was one of the people who had a chance to switch his vote at the last minute.

Porkens's last minute change of heart definitely raised eyebrows, but again, as scum he would have to be really confident in himself to lynch his scumbuddy over the doctor, especially having to make that suspicious wagon shift doing it. I'm leaning towards there not being any scum on TMJ's wagon.

As for Pops's wagon, DRK was initially very low on my suspicion list. A lot of his opinions mirrored mine at the time. However, looking back now, he was the very first person to jump on Y.C.'s wagon (Vi created it), and a quick Ctrl+F shows that his very first mention of TMJ was near the bottom of page 6 - meaning he hadn't even said anything about TMJ for quite a while. He has said that his non-suspicion of TMJ was based solely on his suspicion of Pops, which was the same with me until I considered the possibility of a third party. These similarities with my way of thinking is why I initially put him very low on my suspicion list. But putting his close mirror of my opinions aside, DRK does look like the most likely candidate for scum on Pops's wagon.

Imaginality is an odd case, because he was not quick to put his vote on Y.C.'s wagon, voted for TMJ instead, and after 5 days of absence shifted his vote onto Pops. I didn't get what the fuss over his mafia doctor speculation was about, but he may have been trying to say that Pops was scum without directly disproving his statement. That could be a mild tell of scum I guess, but it's a little stretch I think. I'm not very sure about Imaginality actually, 50/50 for me.

Vi, I don't think she's scum. Is she a 'she', by the way? Her arguments have been largely pro-town, and with the last minute hammer, she could have just pretended like she wasn't there at all if she was scum. However, if there is scum on TMJ's wagon, Vi is logically the most likely candidate. Scum who didn't want to be on her scumbuddy's wagon, but realised that the other wagon wasn't going to happen and switched her vote at the last minute to make herself look good. This is different from Porkens's case because if Porkens had agreed upon the Pops wagon, it would actually have gone ahead. Still, Vi's pro-town arguments incline me to believe she's not scum.

My next problem is Afatchic. He makes promises and doesn't keep them, but that's not the big problem. He has made a total of 9 posts, being absent during important periods of time, especially near deadline and that 5 day period which he claimed was only 3 days. He was going to say something about TMJ, but ended up not saying it. His last post was on Jammer, almost as if saying that he doesn't want to vote for the doctor OR his scumbuddy. He was also far more sure about Pops's doctor status than any uninformed player should be. All in all, quite worrisome. His only redeeming factor is that he was not opportunistic with the initial Y.C. wagon, even before the doctor claim. What do you think?

8 sigma:

My point with Jammer is that he didn't really get on the TMJ wagon until very late in the game, and he left himself open to switching later on to pops. That said, he had the chance to switch and didn't, which we've already said, which gives him some town points. I'm still a little wary of him, honestly, but there are definitely better possibilities.

I understand your points with Porkens as well, but my gut feeling is that he's got as good a chance as anyone on the TMJ wagon to be scum.

What it boils down to is this -- I'd think Mafia Framer is an important balancing power role (assuming there's a cop) and it seems unlikely that the mafia would willingly lynch that framer when there was another very possible lynch candidate. Just because of sheer numbers, though, I'm wary of giving everyone on that TMJ wagon a get-out-of-lynch free card. Like I said, I think porkens is the most likely candidate there if there is a scum on that wagon.


The best place to start scum-hunting tomorrow, however, is probably on the pops wagon, which brings us to the next couple folks.

Interesting point about DRK never mentioning TMJ until later in the day. He definitely is worth questioning.

I agree with you that vi's been driving the town pretty hard. I think I'm going to research her meta and see if she's been extremely active before as scum and is a strong player in that respect. The evidence as far as her late switch to TMJ goes means that she could very well have been avoiding the bus until it was inevitable. Sotty also made some good points about her vagueness on pops until the end of the day. Basically, I'm inclined to research vi because if we discount her generall pro-town activeness as being more playstyle than town-tell, the evidence definitely points to her somewhat. So, count me as more suspicious of vi than you are.

I said earlier that I'm inclined to lynch afatchic for his deadline-lurking, and I'd forgotten about the "really convinced about pops' doctor claim." Yet, when I look at his posting on TMJ, the only time he really mentions him is to say that he thinks his erraticness is newb null-tell. Check his iso 4. So basically, he wasn't suspicious of anyone and lurked his way through day 1. The more I think about it, the more he looks like the best candidate to scum-hunt tomorrow.

Summary:

Top 5 scummy players:
afatchic
DRK
porkens
vi
imaginality


I've left you off here because you've made a lot of good points in this night-talk session. Your last post looks really bad, and that hurts you somewhat. That said, I'm inclined to give you a temporary pass on the basis that you went way out on a limb there, and scum don't tend to do that -- as scum, you should have known that TMJ could get lynched and leave you looking terrible. You're definitely not the most likely scum out there... for now.

Any thoughts on me? Any actions you'd like me to defend before morning, or are you pretty convinced of my towniness? Anything on my points above?

9 Cruciare:

You and Vi were the two players I wasn't suspicious of at all D1, and my reason for not suspecting you is similar to my reason for not suspecting Vi. The point about Vi's last minute wagon switch applies to you as well, but as with Vi, your arguments have been largely pro-town, and I'm not really suspicious of you at all (or at least as unsuspicious as I can possibly be without being on the 'informed' side of the players =P). When I say 'pro-town arguments', I don't really mean 'extremely active' or 'driving the town', but rather that there's nothing particularly disagreeable or eyebrow-raising in their posts, and that the general content of said posts appear to serve towards the town's victory (as interpreted by me). I actually think Vi's vagueness is more of a town-tell, as it is the pro-town players who are more inclined to have doubts as to who should be lynched, especially faced with a roleclaim. Vi's push of Imaginality was a bit weird though, so you're actually above her on my towniness list.

My top 3 scummy players at this point are: DRK, Afatchic, Imaginality. I'm not including people on the TMJ wagon on that list because of the logic associated with lynching a scumbuddy over someone else who easily could've been lynched instead, as we've discussed. You say that you're wary to overlook them due to sheer numbers so that's understandable, but I guess I'm more willing to give them a free pass due to my belief that being on the TMJ wagon at that situation doesn't make a lot of sense for scum. I've put DRK above Afatchic because if you look at his play from the perspective that DRK is definitely scum, and that he knew TMJ was also scum (trying not to draw attention to him), and that he didn't initially know Y.C. was a doctor (and so jumped on an easy wagon), and that later he understood the implications of lynching a claimed doctor (see his reaction to Pops' claim and long period of non-voting thereafter), it makes a lot of sense. There are holes all over Afatchic's play too, but as I said his redeeming factor was that he didn't jump on Y.C.'s wagon. Everything else about him was pretty scummy, though. Either way, I'll be going after these two on D2, and to a lesser extent possibly Imaginality.

-----

Night 2:

10 sigma:

Geez, what a clusterfuck that flavorfail was.

First thoughts:

So, we have another neighbor pair. Doesn't make me suspect imaginality any less, honestly. I could use a good iso review on him though.

ojanen seems like town to me so far. Still don't like afatchic's previous play, but I wouldn't look there first tomorrow.

vi looks dodgier to me too then previously. Given her attacks on imaginality, though, I'd be surprised if they were both scum. having looked at vi's meta, it's definitely within her capabilities to post as much as she does and still be scum -- I think it was Tofu Mafia where she was scum and played really well.

jammer/charter: I'm still having a lot of trouble getting past jammer's opportunity to hammer pops D1. I'll have to look at ojanen's case again and see how much I agree with, because I think there's definitely some reason to suspect him. I liked some of charter's points on vi, but he doesn't feel as pro-town to me as ojanen, our other replacement. I really don't like charter's vote on DRK.

Cathart hasn't made much of an impact on this game, has he? His early bus on TMJ looks pro-town, but he hasn't been nearly as active as others.

I still think you're town. it's more gut-read than anything, though. If imaginality flips town tomorrow, I'll have to take another serious look at the case on you.

Do you want to claim neighbor tomorrow? Wasn't really sure how to get into the discussion when imaginality's claim came out.

11 Cruciare:

I actually wanted to claim neighbours yesterday, but you were kinda missing and it may have been unfair for me to claim. In any case I definitely want to claim tomorrow.

I agree that Vi is starting to look highly suspicious, and the timing and content of her 541 is too convenient. I don't think her play here matches her play in Tofu, though. She was far more wordy in Tofu. I assume you've read Tofu? Like how she heavily bussed her only scumbuddy early in the game? That's why I think her flip-flop attitude regarding TMJ/Pops at D1 deadline doesn't match Vi-Scum. Still, like I said, she's starting to look scummier and scummier recently.

Charter, I'm not sure really. I put him down as most likely scumbuddy for Imaginality (I still think there are two scum left), but I'm getting gut-town vibes from how he went after Vi and me. His vote on DRK stuck out, but I'm not sure if I can declare it *scummy* per se. About the D1 wagons, I said that the only reason scum would be on TMJ's wagon was if they thought TMJ was going to by lynched soon anyway. And then Vi pointed out that Jammer mentioned something to the effect of 'we're going to lynch [TMJ] eventually anyway'. So that's a point against Jammer/Charter.

Ojanen's still not entirely clear with me. She just hasn't done anything that points to obvtown IMO. I've already pretty much arrived to most of her conclusions about Imaginality when I was rereading D1, and she's kinda stretching the Jammer case. I've also been looking at her comment about town-aligned players having different role names, trying to see if that comes from town or scum perspective. The mod did say everyone has the official vanilla PM, but DRK said he was townie, you said you're villager, and I'm neither of those two. In any case, I'm not feeling these town vibes everyone else seems to be from Ojanen. I'm sure there's scum amongst Imaginality, Vi and Ojanen.

Speaking of Imaginality, I find it weird that he felt the need to breadcrumb neighbours when Sotty could've just confirmed it. You're right in saying that his claim doesn't make me suspect him any less. I'll probably want to go after him first tomorrow. Sotty's not very suspicious of Imaginality, so I wanna try question Sotty about how innocent she thinks Imaginality is. Maybe get her to post all of Imaginality's night talk if possible, so we can judge for ourselves.

Col? I'm not suspicious of him at all, TBH. He has been quiet though, not sure if that means anything.

12 sigma:

My power was out last night.

Fine with you claiming -- I'll back you up on that when you do. I wonder how much we're allowed to post neighbor NT? Seems like there shouldn't be any issue with that. When you ask about getting imaginality's night talk, you may want to post a mod question in-thread. Or ask him now, even.

I haven't read Tofu too closely -- I just noticed that vi was really wordy as you said. I don't think the meta matches up, as you said (I didn't realize she bussed her partner early) but she's definitely a capable player, and I wouldn't be surprised if she's scum in this game.

Yeah, that imaginality breadcrumb was strange. i guess the issue here is that I wouldn't think imaginality and vi are both scum. vi does have a history of early bussing, apparently, but I can't really see her doing that when TMJ was already drawing heat early. TMJ would be a much better bus target. So, I don't think they both can be scum.

ojanen is tough to figure out -- I really didn't like afatchic's play, but I like hers. Not sure how to reconcile those two.

to sum up the scum-meter, then...

Likely scum: imaginality
Could be scum: vi
Null: charter, Col
Gut Town: you, Ojanen
Likely Town: sotty, porkens

and I think there's a scum in the null category or further in the town side of the meter, which means I'm probably mis-reading somebody.

13 Cruciare:

I'm asking the mod now.

About Tofu, I don't know if it was particularly early per se, but I know it was what got Adel (her partner) lynched D2 if I recall.

I dunno about Vi and Imaginality's mutual scum status. I wouldn't put it above Vi to double bus, especially considering her TMJ hammer was last-minute and thus not as innocent-looking as it would be if she had voted earlier. But I'm not entirely sure about Vi in the first place. She was gut-town until recently. It's worth rereading Vi, I think. Especially her D1 arguments and their timings (the timing of her case against Imaginality may be interesting to note).

My scum-meter would go:

Likely Scum: Imaginality
Could be Scum: Vi, Ojanen
Null: Charter
Gut Town: Sotty
Likely Town: You, Porkens, Col

14 sigma:

A couple of things:

imaginality's 499. He didn't get much grief for this at the time, but I don't see how it's acceptable for him to basically try and out vi as a cop. I don't see how it's pro-town at all, despite his arguments. Am I the only one thinking this, since no one else really picked up on this?

what do you think of this passage in ojanen's jammer-accuse post?

And with Tjoe, his actions could be becouse he is newish(or something), as Cruciare said. I want to hear more from him.

Takes this stand on TMJ and makes sure to credit Cruciare for the scum-defending.

15 Cruciare:

What I find funny about 499 is that he actually picked up on Vi's subtly-hinting comments. I definitely didn't come to the conclusion of 'Vi is cop' or anything remotely like that when I read her posts. He also says scum would almost certainly have picked up on it (which is why he outed the Vi-Cop possibility in the first place), but I as town certainly didn't. What's suspicious to me about that post is not so much the fact that he tried to out Vi as the cop, but that 1) Before that post I didn't take any of Vi's comments to mean 'Vi is cop', 2) Imaginality claimed that scum would certainly have picked up on it, and 3) Imaginality himself actually picked up on it whilst I didn't. Obviously this entire thing is based on me as town not picking up anything, and I'm not sure whether that's because I'm not scum actively looking for the cop or I'm just not prone to these details. Did you pick up on Vi-Cop before Imaginality mentioned it? Trying to out the cop is of course not pro-town (to be fair Imaginality's reasoning was not entirely bad if you look at it from a certain point of view TBH), but the points I mentioned above are far more suspicious to me.

That passage in Ojanen's Jammer-accuse post is one of ones that I would consider a really big stretch. Seriously, she's pushing it there. Even I once said 'as Imaginality said' when referring to Pops not claiming when he was first at L-1. Ojanen's not looking at the possibility that Jammer could be uninformed there, nothing anti-town about it at all IMO.

16 sigma:

No, I didn't pick up on imaginality's points about vi being a likely cop at all.

I agree with you about Ojanen's point being a stretch, but I was curious about your opinion on that, especially since she invoked you as a result of bringing it up. Something to keep an eye on, I think.

[Vi]

...

Realistically speaking, yes, I'm the best lynch today. Rationales aside I don't deny that some things I've said/done look very scummy; and between two sets of Neighbors, an investigated innocent, and a heavily-outed V. Townie that people like a whole lot more, I'm pretty outclassed in being probTown just from a broad perspective. Last, Fall Break started today, and I'm looking forward to

a six-hour drive one way

cooler weather and a night sky that isn't ruined by light pollution. I don't want to have this game on my mind when anything I do will probably be in vain anyway.

Thus. I will

self-hammer

if placed at L-1. (Why hammer myself instead of voting myself outright? Mostly for theatrical purposes )
This offer is only good until I leave tomorrow morning; after that you can get your OWN hammer vote.

I trust you will find that there will not be much of a difference between now and Day 4 if I'm lynched tonight (RL time), except that you'll be able to focus on finding actual Mafiosi.
My request - please take it - is that you

not let Porkens coast to endgame

, mostly because "coasting" describes his play up until this point nicely. In other words, I don't think the scum HAS to be one of the four Neighbors (or charter) and I

do

believe it's conceivable that he's a Godfather and the Cop was a giant red herring.

I apologize for the inconvenience.

Unvote: Sotty7
Vote: Porkens

(L-4)

[Sotty7]

Sotty noticing me hanging out in Little Italy right before D2 made me I was watching both this game and the other one, I believe -- I can be obsessive about this game sometimes...

I hear that.

Me and Sigma were like in completely different time zones or something, so we didn't have as many talks. Did you guys have a QuickTopic? We talked through PM. =/

Yeah, we had a quick topic. imaginality made it, good move on his part

Vi dangling the self hammer makes me ugh. All WIFOM aside, it's not really something you see scum be willing to offer up. It would be nice to get Porkens in here with some detailed thoughts.

Reading the neighbor talk makes me feel better about Cruciare.

[RedCoyote]

Check out the first and third post for links to important posts, replacement information, role reveals, and a vote count history! All available free of charge and open to the public at any time.

---

Vote Count 3.1

• Vi

  (charter - Sotty7 - Col.Cathart -

  imaginality

  )
  
  
  Col.Cathart
  (Porkens)
  
  
  Porkens
  (

  Vi

  - Vi)
  
  
  imaginality
  (sigma - Cruciare)
  
  
  Sotty7
  (

  Vi

  )
  
  
  Not Voting
  (imaginality)

With eight alive, it takes five to lynch.
The current deadline is set for

October 15th

.

[Vi]

Time's up. Toodles!

[imaginality]

Vi dangling the self hammer makes me ugh. All WIFOM aside, it's not really something you see scum be willing to offer up.

Scum have more motive to offer it than town, though, no?

Reading the neighbor talk makes me feel better about Cruciare.

Ditto this. Doesn't clear my suspicions of sigma though.

[Vi]

Vi dangling the self hammer makes me ugh. All WIFOM aside, it's not really something you see scum be willing to offer up.

Scum have more motive to offer it than town, though, no?

Scum priority: Survival
Town priority: Helping find scum

[Sotty7]

Pretty much what Vi said. Could have been a bluff however, we won't know till after the game or her flip. Depending on what comes first.

[sigma]

Vi dangling the self hammer makes me ugh. All WIFOM aside, it's not really something you see scum be willing to offer up.

Scum have more motive to offer it than town, though, no?

Scum priority: Survival
Town priority: Helping find scum

It is an interesting post, isn't it? I think vi's goal was either to go trawling for a scum L-1 vote when she made her self-hammer threat, or say that she was doing the same. In isolation, I think that post is a null tell.

[charter]

Why is Vi not dead? Seriously people. Let me highlight some scumfessions from the last two pages.

Post 596, major fishing.
612, threatens to self hammer.

This is just in addition to everything else this game.
Porkens, why are you still voting the cop? Why are you NOT voting Vi?

Neighbor talks, TL;DR.

[Porkens]

Sorry guys, requirements at work and a nasty bout of food poisoning have kept me away.

unvote

I'm absolutely certain that one of the neighbors is scum:
Sotty
Imaginality
Sigma
Cruciare

The cop claim is believable, so that leaves:
charter
Vi

I'll be honest; I don't really see the case on Vi, here.

[Porkens]

oh, and my avater was found on google
and I haven't been random.

[Col.Cathart]

Sorry guys, requirements at work and a nasty bout of food poisoning have kept me away.

unvote

I'm absolutely certain that one of the neighbors is scum:
Sotty
Imaginality
Sigma
Cruciare

The cop claim is believable, so that leaves:
charter
Vi

I'll be honest; I don't really see the case on Vi, here.

And do you see a case on anyone else for that matter? IMO, the case on Vi made by Sotty + Charter's and mine add-ons is so far the best things we have (and YES, this time it means 'scummy', Sigma [Reference to a lately finished game with me and Sigma ]). Personally, I think that self-hammering is hugely anti town move, and it makes me even more happy with lynching Vi.

[Porkens]

I don't have a problem with his public role speculation.

I've self-hammered as town PR because I was pissy.

but, ok, lets just get this on the road.

vote: Vi