Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town (Halted for list mod error)

[d3x]

sitting on the sidelines not posting

This. I'm also not talking about the last few hours, I'm refering to the last few days. Skruffs hasn't posted since last Thursday.

[Scien]

Nah... I thought that was L-1. Was asking for no hammer until my next few posts. I am perfectly fine with getting put at L-1 and in fact would self hammer if we were facing me or no lynch. Actually I kind of think we should have someone at L-1 at this point. Even if its me.

Sorry I'll do less explaining myself and more catchup.

[Chinaman]

d3x and Amished: does the 'willingness' of self sacrifice mean anything here? Is it a null-tell, scum-tell, or pro-town?

[Amished]

Not really. Typically self-voting is an extreme scumtell (townies voting for only the people that they *know* are town does not follow at all) but a no-lynch is bad enough for a townie to be able to.

I refer you to the "Being a good IC" wiki page (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... _a_good_IC) and go to the self-voting/hammering. I think it's been changed since I've been here, but the only time an IC *could* self-hammer (and not get barred from being an IC ever again) is to avoid a no-lynch.

I've self-hammered as scum well before the deadline to stifle discussion, but as this point it's kinda moot.

In this circumstance (IMO): null-tell.

[Scien]

If Zeenon is active lurking that supersedes any suspicion I have of MM.

Woah wait... lurking trumps suspicion? Why do you think this? Is your suspicion light on MM, or do you think lurking in general is worse than what you think are questionable plays?

[Comments about Rai's iso 15 and 17]

While its all well and good that you can catch suspicions off of these, everything you have listed there is WIFOM, it needs to be backed with more concrete evidence in my opinion. I assume you do this in more of your catch up posts. If you are building a case on me purely because of this, then I am going to ask why you think there is not more hard evidence to look at in this game. But we will get to that after I catch up more I guess.

FOS: Scien

Zeenan brings up some good points and I'm starting to reconsider the Raivann/Scien sumpair theory.[/quiote]
If you are going to FoS me at this point, I am going to have to question you about it. Everything he has brought up so far is WIFOM. He might back it up later for all I know... but at the point of time that you FoSed me, he had not. What makes you confident enough in the current WIFOM argument to switch suspicions? What's going through your mind?

4) I am on Zeenon's townlist

Nice, although he didn't say why you were townish yet. How do you expect town to just go 'Ah, that means you must be town'. There is no backing here.

[quote="MM]Right now I would support a scien lynch. In fact,VOTE:

No offense but this sounds like it is still based on Zee's WIFOM comments. Was your case more than this?

I state that I think the argument itself is town-vs-town, not necessarily the players.

First, thanks for answering my questions. It was suggested you were ignoring them (I don't think by me, as I thought you were catching up). Your first answer was strieght, and if I have time (which it looks like I am lacking) I'll go back and see if that clears concerns there. Your above answer doesn't make sense to me, and therefore I still don't know what you mean by town-vs-town.

How can an argument be town-vs-town, and there be scum making it up? What does it mean for an argument to be town-vs-town? I thought the argument was just information, and when you applied alignment to it, you were suggesting your thoughts on the participants... you don't agree? Please enlighten me (no sarcasm there, I really don't understand).

The fact that you and a few others make the mistake of labelling it as lurking rather than inactivity makes me very suspicious.

Again. I personally didn't know about your issues. Of course it is going to be assumed that you are not having issues. In the absence of that information people are going to assume that it is lurking. Its not that big of an assumption to make, and we have more information now. Who is manipulating your absence after you told us why?

Oh, and

Unvote

since you addressed my questions, and I don't really find you scummy I suppose.

Why in the bloody world would you want for Amished to not give his case on him!?

This is obvious. He is building his case, and doesn't want to have Amished bring similiar points. If he does, then Zee will be accused of parroting, which will sidetrack my supporters, as I don't feel at this time Zee has been behaving scummy, but you would still be on your crusade against him even after he posts his case.

BTW, why do I have supporters again? I find it real odd that several people seem to have such a strong read on me. I have mentioned this before, but I think it went by unnoticed.

Why is it Scien voters vs. MM voters already?

QFT. Everyone is suspect.

This really gives me the impression that he felt the need to do some last minute bussing in order to attempt to make Scien look better. Not only that, but Scien didn't comment on d3x's post #105 about Raivann even though he commented about the two posts right after it. The ignorance of that post seems very suspicious since he happens to comment on other posts referring to Raivann later on when more suspicion builds up on him.

Derail a wagon that you are pushing in order to bus? I suppose that is possible. Still WIFOM by the way. What makes it more likely than leaving a bus wagon you are pushing, and then going to a townie target? As for the post comment let me go back and look. Uh, it appears to me that post 105 was a post to try and get someone to comment more, what was I supposed to question again?

The fact that Scien voted me for being inactive over other players that hadn't posted in a longer time period is questionable.

Fair. However I had questions to you. And they had been unanswered for a while. I wanted them answered. I could have continued not pressuring and hoping you would come back to answer them, but a vote helps more.

Yes, that's it. Now that I think about I am not as confident as I was before that Scien is scum, and hopefully after I do my re-read of every player plus a summary I will be able to judge my number one suspect. As for now, my number one suspect is Scien.

I know this a weak tactic on me, but I get the feeling I am the lynch for today. I would like to point out to the town that he is starting to convieniently questioning his read, as pressure builds on me. This is not through discussion, this is in the magical period of time where he was building his case. He was not having exchanges with me to change his opinion of me.

It doesn't make him scum, but it needs to be examined.

The second interview explains some of this I see now. But when I flip town, I think this needs to be revisited a bit anyway.

Scien's early posts are way too aloof for a townie.

Welcome to a day 1 post, in which the townie has made up his mind that both players were exaggerating and blowing things up. I wanted to look at the interactions of outside parties with the big fight during that time. I didn't think me participating with the main fight would have helped.

I would fully expect a townie to be able to identify with one or the other in the argument.

I was getting a vague town-vs-town feel out of the argument. And when I say that I mean I think the alignments of the participants were town and town, and they were over zealously exaggerating each others comments and making things more important than they were in early day. Much more interesting to see why people would side with one side or another during that time.

probably waiting for one of them to make more of a slip and hop on them for that.

And yet I didn't, in all that exaggerating, heated argument, I found nothing? If I wanted to pick a side, I could have. Trust me.

Scien says that Raivs "fuzzy = town" scumslip makes sense, but said slip is the first reason why Scien votes for Raiv. This is all in the same post, which makes it especially damning in my eyes.

Had new questions to him, and he was addressing questions. This was a good thing. Keeping him doing it as opposed to lurking was a motive here.

Huge coaching in this post. Leaves himself an out in case Raiv does what Scien views Raiv *should* be doing to get himself out of a lynch.

[/quote]
I wanted answers, not a blind lynch. He needed prodding to get answers, as opposed to playing emo kid.

Amished post here deserves more comments from me, and I will come back if I have more time... but I want to go ahead and hit the rest of the pages before coming back... due to needing to get as much info out in as short amount of time as I can... besides with my lynch looming, it is more important to get my views and concerns out rather than trying to defend my past plays. (Not that I won't try, I just need to do some other stuff first)

That was page 18. Moving on.

[Scien]

Amished is right about my self-hammer comment. It should be regarded as a null tell. You don't even know if I will do it anyway. You need to look at the rest of my plays to make up your decision.

[Fuzzyman]

Please don't hammer the one person that you know for sure is town.

[Scien]

We do still have a ZEEnon post on the subject to look forward to.

What are you waiting for at this point? Wasn't his interview what you were looking for?

Either way, if Scien is lynched and flips scum or town, I'll have a better read on MM.

When I flip townie, I should say, be very careful about what that means. Scrutinize everything, even your own feelings about what a certain flip means.

Scien being very active till he gets some pressure makes the Scien lynch make more sense.

Come on lol! It was the Missouri/Nebraska game and tickets landed in my lap on Wednesday! How could I not pass that up. (BTW, I know its unprovable in thread, but the last time I looked at the thread was probably Wednesday morning, before I left. IMO I was not under a lot of pressure at that time.)

Please don't hammer the one person that you know for sure is town.

In your opinion, which is worse for the town. Losing a Vanilla townie (claim BTW) and gaining information about everyone's interactions with him, or saving a townie but not having as much information going into tomorrow? A no lynch is much worse than a townie lynch. Don't get me wrong, I will be waiting until deadline to do it, as anyone on my wagon gives you guys information. But we DO need to lynch someone.

Out of me or MM? I would vote MM. I don't think his initial play suggests scum. But when people try to question it does seem hard to get information out of him. My vote goes there unless we need my lynch.

I think we need someone at L-1 for safety sake still.

Vote:MonkeyMan

[Scien]

Since I didn't unvote on a single line above... Like a big idiot.

Unvote
Vote:MM

[Chinaman]

Fuzzy: Was that addressed to Scien?

@all: what are your thoughts about Scien's recent posts? I can personally see them as genuinely trying to help town. That being said, we also don't want a no-lynch scenario here. It seems to me that although Scien stated " I don't really find you scummy I suppose", he keeps bringing ZEE up the most.

Scien, are you suggesting a possible alternate lynch candidate this close to deadline (ZEE) or is it just his posts that stick out to you enough to post on?

[Amished]

If I post my thoughts, I want you to say yours first so you can't parrot me or say "oh, that's logical too" and then just sheep to whatever I say. (this is regarding Scien's recent posts, etc..)

[Chinaman]

Alright Scien, for safety sake as you put it and that although your posts seem genuine, they don't quite answer for much of Amish's case on you.

Vote: Scien

----------------------------------

My thoughts on Scien's recent posts. Could be an AtE. I could see this because I'm doubting myself. There's no real way to know until lynch and flip, but like I said, his posts seem genuine. If he's town and is cool with his lynch enough to hammer, then he is in fact providing information and giving him the ability to self hammer (or someone else if it comes to deadline and he doesn't) seems the safest bet. Like I said, his latest posts seem to point toward ZEE more than anyone, but there's an MM vote in there. All in all, I think Scien's the best candidate for lynch, but I won't be as surprised if he flips town. Basically, it's what's best, but I'm having doubts.

Your turn!

Lol, I just previewed like 10 times to make sure there were no ninja's out there.

[Amished]

As town: He's providing where his suspicions lie while working on catching up. Shows an extraordinary amount of devotion (which is extremely rare). The hitch is that town don't want themselves to be lynched, so his vote on the competing wagon (while not particularly agreeing with it) is natural and logical. Realizes that if lynched, he wants his suspicions out there as eloquently as possible for tomorrow after the mislynch and NK.

As scum: We've already discussed scum trying to buss their partners when under pressure, and honestly it's in the best interests of scum to create confusion if possible to throw the rest of the town off track. There's one quote in here that makes me feel that this is the option that is happening, so I'm not particularly paying attention to Scien's posts, but I will overnight after the reveal if we're wrong.

Looking for his quote now, I've seen it today. BBS.

[Amished]

We have time... let me catch up...
If only for the value of my comments before I flip.

This was the entire quote.

The reason this tripped my senses is that as VT (which he claimed, I wasn't expecting otherwise tbh) his opinions and viewpoints are no more valid than the rest of ours. His comments wouldn't really affect much as he's as much in the dark as we are, and without really seeing his point of view it'd be hard to base anything on what he's said (and basic human psychology, we always believe our point to be more important than anybody else's). So after a VT flip, we really wouldn't look at what he's said as he won't be NK'd (he's under too much pressure and almost getting to a lynch; scum def. want to keep him around, not going to assume more than 1 killing role yet).

As scum, though: the value of his comments are to throw us red herrings, possibly with a bit of truth in there to help his partner out the most he can. He knows that when he flips scum, we'll look for connections in his comments. That's where true value would lie for him.

---

Also, one other thing smelled fishy to me: He unvotes ZEEnon for

Oh, and Unvote since you addressed my questions, and I don't really find you scummy I suppose.

while then going on to make sure that he's questioned for his activities (casting him {ZEEnon} in a negative light, and is subtle enough to not be picked up on right away, while after closer scrutiny it would be).

[Scien]

This is going to be horribly long and I apologize in advance.

Scien's early posts are way too aloof for a townie. [...] To phrase in another way: especially in the Manz vs. MMan early back and forth; I would fully expect a townie to be able to identify with one or the other in the argument. However, Scien is playing wiffleball with both of them, not taking a stance, probably waiting for one of them to make more of a slip and hop on them for that.

I pulled out everyone you said had pointed out similar. First, why would a townie have to pick a side. What if the townie thought both sides were wrong. What if he had suspicions, but wanted to let the argument play out while he looked elsewhere? WIFOM defense here I know, but while I was aloof there was another motive for it, and you claiming that one is more likely with the information you have is... well... incorrect unless you truly know what I was thinking at the time.

You made a "good logic vs good logic", "bad logic vs bad logic", "good logic vs bad logic" comment somewhere before I remember. I think it was bad vs bad logic there. One side was trying to force more meaning out of generalizations that they probably should have been doing. The other side generalized, and thought that the other party was saying things they weren't. They were overly obvious about this, I think they were doing it for protown motives. The alternative in my mind is scum vs scum, and I don't think that was a likely play so early. Especially when most the town seemed to take a side, and the way it was going it would have likely been one or the other. I just don't see scum doing that. I still believe town vs town there. My current vote is just a them or me kind of vote.

if you are worth your salt as a scumhunter (and I hope you are), you will *LOOK FOR CONNECTIONS TO OTHER SCUM*.

Could you do that with two people you think town? What would you do in that case? Would you look at other people?

Therefore, I really point you to ZEEnon's 388. To point out the extremely good connections between Raiv and Scien, here's the relevant quotes that I 100% agree with (or come close to, if not 100%. Where I'm not 100% I will note).

I still hold a lot of that is WIFOM. What makes you think the scenarios described there are more likely than the scenarios that suggest that I am a townie?

Oh! You quoted. That will make it easier, thanks heh.

Raivann's Isolation Post #15:

probscum=Zeenon,MM

I support either a Scien or Zeenon lynch.
Vote:Scien

Within a span of, wait for it, ONE post, he completely turns around from naming me as his top suspect, to voting Scien. Just like I stated in my analysis of Raivann's Isolation Post #12, I think this is the time that Raivann would DEFINITELY start to bus as mafia, since he had at least half of the players suspecting him majorly. The fact that he just names Scien as a suspect and votes him just from one post Scien made is extremely suspicious to me, making Scien pop onto my radar immediately after seeing Raivann flip scum.

Raivann's Isolation Post #17:

This post of Raivann's just makes me laugh. Like seriously! What goes on in this guy's head?

"I'm going to ask my number one suspect if he wants to switch with me to my number two suspect!"

To be honest, "Would you support a Zeenon lynch, Scien?" makes me feel even stronger conviction that Scien is mafia. Sure, you might argue that scum wouldn't be that obvious about their partners. But then again you would also argue that scum wouldn't be obvious about themselves, but clearly Raivann contradicts that statement since he obvious to the extreme.

That's it for the Raivann post-by-post analysis, stay tuned for more!

As scum, what's the *only* reason you would ask your #1 suspect if he would back you up? Scum talking to a townie that way clearly isn't going to work (and he (raiv) didn't ask the question to ZEE); but you could expect somebody *who is aligned with you* to back you up. That's a huge nail in Scien's coffin, but there's more that hasn't been looked at (to my knowledge): Scien's (and everybody's) referencing to Raiv.

This is still WIFOM. What makes it more likely that Rai is a partner that spontaneously left a wagon gaining steam to bus a partner, rather than a scum that was OMGUSing a person that was pressuring him vocally? Both are equally likely in my book, and yet people seem to be building cases off of it here. Interesting?

ISO 12: Scien says that Raivs "fuzzy = town" scumslip makes sense, but said slip is the first reason why Scien votes for Raiv. This is all in the same post, which makes it especially damning in my eyes.

Eh, as I said before, getting him to talk was paramount. Up till that part he was playing a lurking game. Commenting but not really participating. Him answering questions, was better than him not talking. If he gave me any kind of answer I was likely to 'praise' him for it by thanking him for an answer, and asking new questions. As long as he is answering, he is furthering my goals.

ISO 14:

One, there are other points against you, and your brevity is not helping.

Two, how the heck is giving town reads on players protown?

Anyone can do it. Also scum committing to lying saying they have scum tells on someone is typically more dangerous for them to do than telling us they have town tells on people... its easy to find new 'scummy' stuff to change the scum's mind later and pursue a townie they said was town earlier...

However irritating a townie by weakly pursuing them earlier using 'scum tells' is going to catch them attention, from the very least their target.

I don't get why you think that giving town reads is protown... How so?

Huge coaching in this post. Leaves himself an out in case Raiv does what Scien views Raiv *should* be doing to get himself out of a lynch.

Again, getting him to answer my questions was paramount. If I have to tell him to behave so that he actually addresses my concerns, it is better than just sitting back and letting someone who might honestly not know what I am looking for flounder and not answer me.

I was still questioning him, and did not answer for him, I just pointed at what I wanted answered. You don't agree?

ISO 15

Ok. I'll give you a chance to reread. My vote stays until I start doubting my read though. As for your link, I'll give 'er a read tomorrow. As it stands currently, I still think it is a bad idea to ask for townie lists... One question in the meantime though. If you think its a good idea, is the only thing holding you back the fact that you haven't responded to Monkey yet? Or are you withholding for other reasons?

As it stands at the moment... I think that your views on people suspecting you are negative... and your views on the people saying they might not suspect you are positive. Don't know what to think about that...

(Fuzzy points elsewhere... You think this is townie.
D3x points you... you think scum.
Chinaman unvotes you... you think townie.)

Gives Raiv more wiggle room to do what Scien wanted Raiv to do to appear pro-town. Also gives Scien a way to unvote Raiv at a moments notice. Bolded is *huge* coaching, telling Raiv exactly what not to do. Scien commenting on this being scummy, but not having it solidify his read on Raiv is damning as well. (Also, Raiv and Scien were in a game together, in which I also was (town). Scien scum in that game, Raiv newb-town. They have a repertoire with each other, I can def. see Raiv looking to Scien for help if needed)

Meh. This is a more valid concern than your others since its not WIFOM, I will give you that. So out of curiosity, if I tell anyone why I have concerns, does that count as coaching to you? I was saying why I was voting and questioning him yet. BUT EVERYONE DOES THAT WHEN THEY VOTE/CAST SUSPICION. What makes my instance different than others?

ISO 18

Okay... I have not been on him because that was an obvious miswording. I don't even understand how someone can be both townie AND scummy... and naturally assumed that this was not his intended meaning. How can someone be both?

I'm not deliberately trying to defend him here, I am trying to defend myself, but I am making an assumption about what he meant by that phrase. I think he was trying to say that my questioning was inherently neither pro-town nor pro-scum and suggest that he had not made up his mind on me yet. In other words, he screwed up the conjunction, he meant OR, not AND. By me making this assumption that he misworded when he made that statement, I guess I don't see what I should be concerned about. What does him using 'and' imply?

This is him trying to reword what Raiv said into a more pro-town standpoint. Skruffs caught it and questioned him on it, while I missed it initially. Town-Scien doesn't need to make anybody logical, needs to look at what was said and ask questions if it's not understood.

You are incorrectly quoting this. I am talking about Zee's comment that what you call my early "waffling" was "Scummy and Townie". This whole block has nothing to do with Rai. You are suggesting that I was going out of my way to make Zee's comment more logical? No. I was willing to ignore it and make the sense that I did out of it.

It was only when I was called out on that, and told that if I was townie I would have to question it that I brought it up. I was explaining why I didn't question, and more over why I held no suspicion over it.

This is very close to a direct manipulation of a quote of mine BTW.

{BTW: ISO 22 (it's all you really need to read) is another reason why I believe Scien to be scum all on his own. Skruffs questions are excellent, and Sciens answers are less than stellar}

Opinion. Why on both?

ISO 24

This does read like scum hopping on a wagon to me. Sure he has posted his reasons but it reads like he doesn't really believe them.

I believe them. I want to discuss them with you. I was trying to give you some time for you to catch up.

Would you like to address some of my and the town's concerns here?

Here are mine, I think the rest of the town was just harping on one though:

First, Raiv is under severe pressure at this point, and I believe his (Raivs) question to Scien is part of Raiv's attempt to buss Scien. Also, if you believe in scum slips of the tongue, the bolded is classic.

Sigh. The word town is not always alignment based. The entire town can mean location. You know this.

ISO 34

Woah. Number one, would that end the day?

Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about this?

BTW I was aware of the rule. I was hoping it would be ignored... and he would play.

First question (by Scien): hoping that he'll get out of it with just a scum modkill and not have to worry about looking townie for the remainder of the day, and possibly dealing with another scumlynch, after how much Raiv connected himself with you.

First question. If I was scum I would not comment about this. Second, I would love the opportunity to hit a townie during the day. Why would I not? If I didn't it would just be like a town first day scum kill. That would be bad. You got your motive wrong here, so I have to question your conclusion about its scumminess as well.

Second question (by Scien): Scien was unhappy about Raiv getting killed, but still voting for him. With the recent FoS to ZEEnon, why keep a vote on Raiv (that got to L-1, L-2 for SURE) if Scien didn't want to see him dead? After that much pressure and a wagon progressing that far, everybody voting for him should want him lynched at that point. To "not be happy" about it is an utterly ridiculous statement and also pegs Scien as scum.

Where did I say or hint that I was unhappy. I can assure you this was not the case. Another point. I was not voting him at this point you are mistaken. Although that doesn't help me, I do have to point out your mistakes in the above. By that time I was not voting for him. I thought that someone sounded like they were unhappy. I wanted to get this in concrete form rather than suspicions. At the time I asked this Rai had not flipped. I had no way of knowing if he was scum or town. If someone was happy and the flip was townie. That's cause for scrutiny. If someone was unhappy and the flip was scum. That's cause for scrutiny. At the time I didn;t know what the flip would be, but if someone seemed happy pre-flip, I wanted to know why.

The question was not ridiculous, and you are incorrect for saying so. The fact that you are now trying to show that I was unhappy and the flip was scum, shows that you know what I was looking for. How can you call something you are looking for ridiculous when I do it, but scum hunting when you do it?

[Scien]

Scien, are you suggesting a possible alternate lynch candidate this close to deadline (ZEE) or

is it just his posts that stick out to you enough to post on

?

The bold. I guess I was waiting for Zee before my absense, so thats what I was wanting to comment on. I was skimming through and hitting the things that I could comment on the fastest. I suppose.

[Chinaman]

well, that all makes sense. In light of that, I have a hard time believing that Scien will actually hammer. If he's scum, why would he? That means we need Fuzzy, dizzle, cruelty, skruffs, or jason to hammer.

Fuzzy: Since have posted today, what are your thoughts? Are you for hammering Scien come closer to deadline? How do you feel about the case on him? If you are willing to hammer, how do you feel about it.

[Chinaman]

Well, folks, that's it for me. Gotta jet and do irl stuffs.

[Scien]

Woah... before I get hammered for it, I have to claim I was doing it from memory and was incorrect.

When I made the whiff are you happy comment I was still voting Rai... sorry.

[Scien]

The reason this tripped my senses is that as VT (which he claimed, I wasn't expecting otherwise tbh) his opinions and viewpoints are no more valid than the rest of ours. His comments wouldn't really affect much as he's as much in the dark as we are, and without really seeing his point of view it'd be hard to base anything on what he's said (and basic human psychology, we always believe our point to be more important than anybody else's). So after a VT flip, we really wouldn't look at what he's said as he won't be NK'd (he's under too much pressure and almost getting to a lynch; scum def. want to keep him around, not going to assume more than 1 killing role yet).

Just out of curiousity, what would you expect with a power role townie? If I claim in day 1, I don't have any additional information no matter what my role. Saying that me being VT changes my thoughts is silly.

Now. As for wanting to get my info out. Explaining my plays can help town. Explaining my suspicion can help town. You are right, you would need to take it with a grain of salt since I know nothing concrete myself. But if the scum are pursuing me, it could be because I particularly irritated them somehow with a view of mine. If I can clear suspicion on me as well, you are more likely to consider my points of view and maybe get some new directions to look at events, rather than writing me off as "newbie guy who should have stayed in road to rome".

In short, my thoughts have value, but are not concrete. I don't know anything, just like everyone but scum.

As scum, though: the value of his comments are to throw us red herrings, possibly with a bit of truth in there to help his partner out the most he can.

Assuming there is another scum. We do not know this correct?

[On my Zeenon unvote]

My only reasons for voting Zeenon, was to get questions to my answers and to try and get why he thinks I was manipulating his absence rather than going to the logical conclusion for a townie to make. He answered some of these, and with hours to go and what looks like the village (since I can't say town apparently without it getting called a slip) getting setup in an either or between MM and me, my vote on him lost pressure power, and needed to be placed elsewhere.

[Scien]

Back to this, since I was wrong about my vote:

Second question (by Scien): Scien was unhappy about Raiv getting killed, but still voting for him. With the recent FoS to ZEEnon, why keep a vote on Raiv (that got to L-1, L-2 for SURE) if Scien didn't want to see him dead? After that much pressure and a wagon progressing that far, everybody voting for him should want him lynched at that point. To "not be happy" about it is an utterly ridiculous statement and also pegs Scien as scum.

Where did I say or hint that I was unhappy. I can assure you this was not the case.[...] I thought that someone sounded like they were unhappy. I wanted to get this in concrete form rather than suspicions. At the time I asked this Rai had not flipped. I had no way of knowing if he was scum or town. If someone was happy and the flip was townie. That's cause for scrutiny. If someone was unhappy and the flip was scum. That's cause for scrutiny. At the time I didn;t know what the flip would be, but if someone seemed happy pre-flip, I wanted to know why.

The question was not ridiculous, and you are incorrect for saying so. The fact that you are now trying to show that I was unhappy and the flip was scum, shows that you know what I was looking for. How can you call something you are looking for ridiculous when I do it, but scum hunting when you do it?

This all still stands.

[Amished]

Ok, I'll give you {Scien, everybody} a brief synopsis of the point that I'm addressing, and answer it (this is all from 514):

Ok, so a townie thinks both sides are wrong. Wouldn't the initial "wrong" if continued be a scumtell for them? They're the one making the false accusation and not backing down on it. Regardless, one or the other person is going to make *more* sense than the other; leading them to take sides. You will never see a debate that's exactly even if you think both sides are wrong for arguing, one or the other will make a better point and you will see that and go with it over the other guy. If you can point out a town vs. town argument where both sides are wrong (at the heart of the issue, not just calling each other scum which is obviously wrong) that you don't agree with one person more than the other, I'll retract my whole case against you. Besides, if you thought both sides were wrong, you'd intervene and tell them so instead of asking them questions about it and letting it continue.

{connections to dead scum} I don't exactly understand your question here? Can you form connections between two townies? Yes. If one flips VT, then you know that they could just be on the same wavelength, but there's no game-oriented partnering there, other than scum buddying. If there's a cop buddying to a person, and the cop dies, then you can basically know that the cop has an innocent on said person. That's the point of scum buddying, to form false connections between them and townies to mask their real connections. The real connections are still there, but I will admit to seeing the false connections at times. I haven't seen enough *really solid* play from Raiv to believe that he'd be as subtle about it as opposed to a Tar, PJ, Adel, or any other known good scumhunter you have come across.

{Raiv leaving a growing wagon to buss a scumpartner} I think you said the reason why this is unlikely in your question. It's a growing wagon. Also, I want to point to the exclusivity of his {Raiv's} question. Raiv asked you {scien} if you would support him. He named you {scien} as a top suspect and voted for you. Then he switches 100% to ask if you would vote for somebody he's suspicious of, when you had your vote on him as well (thank you for admitting your mistake that you were on Raiv at the time). A townie wouldn't ask somebody who's voting for them (because they're scummy) to vote with them on another lynch to save the ass of the scummy "townie"; they'd ask their partner because they'd expect you {Scien} to back them up. Raiv also didn't ask ZEE either, he asked you. Why not ask both of you? That's the point I'm making here.

{getting him to talk was paramount} You've stated this twice. so it's clearly a big deal in your interactions with Raiv. You also state that you kinda had to baby him along to answer your questions. I don't (and didn't) see a need to baby him. Good cop/bad cop isn't going to work in a forum setting. You can ask very specific questions til he answers the way you want, you don't need to help him along.

(When you refer to my ISO 14, obviously I don't agree since I think it was scummy of you. If I thought it was pro-town of you, I wouldn't have brought it up in a case against you).

{coaching when using a vote} I can't disagree more with you here. A vote is a way to express that you think they're scum (or need to post for being anti-town, which is almost the same thing). Coaching is telling them what they've done wrong and what they need to explain while giving them time to do so (being polite). A vote (in my book, I don't often vote for lurkers) is telling said person to die because they've acted scummy. I view this is why a vote becomes more powerful the longer a game goes on, and I don't often cast votes without valid reason. I see voting for somebody as an hostile act. To be hostile and vote, then to be nice and tell them "oh, here's what I find suspicious, could you get to that when you have a moment" (heavily paraphrased, but the feeling I get with the post I accused you of coaching in) shows a dichotomy that isn't easily explained from a townie perspective.

{quote about miswording/making look more pro-town} Ahh, that makes more sense. Point retracted, I thought the 2nd paragraph was concerning Raiv's "fuzzy = town" misspeak.

{ISO 22; skruffs good questions, sciens "bad" answers} Skruffs asks very pointed answers, and your questions sound like "ooh, I dunno, probably because of this, but I don't want to sound too harsh to draw more criticism from you {skruffs}" Every response from you there sounded like you were pillowfighting to not look like you were being too hard on anybody, or trying to use a misunderstanding in some way. Skruffs questions were direct, to the point, and asked exactly what he wanted to ask. That's why his questions were good.

Also on the ISO 22 point: your breakdown of skruff's post in the middle looked a lot like Mastin as scum. Line by line is extremely ineffective, and allowed you to dodge a point of skruffs (IMO). Also, your ridiculing of Skruffs position on you by saying you're alike to both ask questions is antagonistic, while also belittling all of his concerns towards you into one argument that is weak. From here out, you get a lot more offensive *towards* skruffs, and your change of heart during the post looks like you've found a new target to try to mislynch.

{Town "slip"} You're right, I do know that, and it's not the crux of my argument/point in that spot. I know some people put a lot of weight on slips of the tongue, and I'm pointing out where you might've done just that. I personally don't take much stock in them, but some do. Also, by focusing on the slip part and not the Raiv bussing you part, makes me think I'm right about this as well.

{ISO 34, question about modkill + ending the day} I state that you'd be more likely to ask if a modkill would end the day as scum than town. Town would relish the chance to not lose a lynch, get a scum dead and look for connections with dead scum. Scum would see the connections with the dead partner and want to end it immediately to lick their wounds, stop discussion and use their NK to hopefully steer away from the partner, or use the time to plan with each other and work on a false connection.

{ISO 34 cont. Happy/unhappy} Read your "Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about this? " question with the emphasis on "happy". Or just ask your question with "this" substituted with the actual scenario: "Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about (scum getting modkilled and allowing us to look for connections)?

First off, you should be extremely happy, and the way you phrased your question sounds like you're asking them why they're happy about it (when it should be obvious). Secondly, it's like a free day-vig. You kill the person you think is most scummy, and you're happy about it either way. If scum, yay! If town, well, there's the biggest distraction gone, but we can still talk about reactions to the scummy person and who made the weakest case on them, etc. It's actually an extremely powerful tool, and one that you should have been happy about either way, regardless of alignment, especially if your vote was on him (and he was at L-2? or something close to there).

[Amished]

slow ninja'd:

I thought you would play more cautiously as PR. Your play as a whole didn't look like somebody who had anything more to play for (night action, etc..) I look at my serious subjects in that light to evaluate fake claims that might come up in deadline situations.

Otherwise I think you're either misinterpreting or misrepresenting the point I was trying to make. As VT, you know nothing is concrete (which was conceded), and that's it. Then you would know that your responses don't really have a value, and we have to interrogate the reasons behind your lynch ourselves, as we can't continue on your track as we have no idea where you were going in the first place. Value signals that there's something more there that's not being revealed.

Side note: It's not always prudent to ignore the possibilities of day actions. I've been in a game where there was a guy with a day action that came out on D1.

[Scien]

Wouldn't the initial "wrong" if continued be a scumtell for them? They're the one making the false accusation and not backing down on it. Regardless, one or the other person is going to make *more* sense than the other; leading them to take sides. You will never see a debate that's exactly even if you think both sides are wrong for arguing, one or the other will make a better point and you will see that and go with it over the other guy. If you can point out a town vs. town argument where both sides are wrong (at the heart of the issue, not just calling each other scum which is obviously wrong) that you don't agree with one person more than the other, I'll retract my whole case against you. Besides, if you thought both sides were wrong, you'd intervene and tell them so instead of asking them questions about it and letting it continue.

Yep. That's why I looked elsewhere rather than trying to stop the discussion. Let them fight it out, and if I see one side start to overly stretch, start questioning. I suppose when you word it the way that you are now, you say that is what you would expect. If you word it as you have been I was 'waiting to choose a side'. Meh.

As for certain things they were doing? Yes. As I have said before, I didn't know if the exaggerations were based on townie motives or scum motives. They could have been either. I needed more tells before I would make up my mind on that.

{connections to dead scum}

I was under the impression that you were criticizing me at the time for not picking a side and looking for connections on the other to find a scum/scum team. So I guess neither of us understand each other here. I suspect town vs town there, and always did. However there's no way in day one that neither of them could know that... and so I can't be drawing town/town connections between them. They just don't know, same as me. What am I missing that is concerning you?

{Raiv leaving a growing wagon to buss a scumpartner}

Hmm. Ok, I can't read into Rai's frame of mind here... but I think what you are saying unfortunately makes sense. That's not how I looked at it at the time however. At the time I was seeing him as getting out of his whole, and I wanted to look elsewhere. I thought that his redirect question was based more on a townie wanting to test a read on some kind of scum connection between Zee and me. I suppose you are right. Since that was my next stop anyway I didn't have a problem with changing to Zee. I should have been more concerned with the redirect question, but I gave it a bad read I suppose.

You also state that you kinda had to baby him along to answer your questions.

Baby him along to answer the questions. Not baby him answers to my questions... if that makes sense.

I don't think that in those exchanges I was not asking him direct questions. You disagree?

[On my response to my ISO 14]

Sigh, I guess this is more of the last statement too. You don't agree that's cool. But I don't think I was feeding him any answers. I was rewording questions until he freggin answered them.

{coaching when using a vote}

Everyone typically dumps out why they are voting when they vote, if only to continue examining the suspect, although there is a self preservation motive there too. You don't think so? How is this any different than when I voted Rai?

{ISO 22; skruffs good questions, sciens "bad" answers}

I am occasionally guilty of this, and unfortunately, I don't think I have the time for a good defense here. I am typically a bit soft handed on people day 1, due to lack of info.

your breakdown of skruff's post in the middle looked a lot like Mastin as scum. Line by line is extremely ineffective, and allowed you to dodge a point of skruffs (IMO). Also, your ridiculing of Skruffs position on you by saying you're alike to both ask questions is antagonistic, while also belittling all of his concerns towards you into one argument that is weak. From here out, you get a lot more offensive *towards* skruffs, and your change of heart during the post looks like you've found a new target to try to mislynch.

I got nothing here... I am confused. In the interest of time, I am going to hit it anyway.

I have never seen Mastin play as scum, and more importantly I am not Mastin. I typically address line by line in an attempt to not miss somthing, and in order to keep things chronologically correct. I ridiculed? I'm alike who? I tried to lynch Skruffs? Where? I am not going to lie here. I was getting irritated. I was feeling like many small positions of mine were attacked rather than actual plays. Many of these small attacks I felt could be explained fairly easy and I was irritated that I had to repetitively do that. I could just see it now, 10 pages of that would have lead to my lynching just because you were tired of my avatar. Heh. We might be getting to that point here as well. (The you irritated at me part, not the other way around)

Also, by focusing on the slip part and not the Raiv bussing you part, makes me think I'm right about this as well.

I focused on that enough. The bussing me part is WIFOM. I know I am town. I can't prove it to you. But using his actions against me as a tell is silly. You can't know what was in his mind. You can suspect, but you can't build cases around it. For all you know it was OMGUSing me for putting pressure on him earlier. Just because he flipped scum doesn't mean anyone he looked at was scum.

I state that you'd be more likely to ask if a modkill would end the day as scum than town.

I was highly certain that it would not. I was kind of asking in an accusatory manner towards the person who suggested that we should stop talking because it was twilight. I am not going to say I was certain, but that 'quit talking we are in twilight' struck me as odd.

Town would relish the chance to not lose a lynch, get a scum dead and look for connections with dead scum. Scum would see the connections with the dead partner and want to end it immediately to lick their wounds, stop discussion and use their NK to hopefully steer away from the partner, or use the time to plan with each other and work on a false connection.

I disagree. I think the scum would like the chance to hit a townie as well. Early game is more likely for them to do so. This is all besides the point though. Where was I unhappy that the modkill came?

Read your "Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about this? " question with the emphasis on "happy". Or just ask your question with "this" substituted with the actual scenario: "Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about (scum getting modkilled and allowing us to look for connections)?

AT THE TIME I DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS SCUM! I assumed he was townie due to the (no offense) poor play, and tried to kill himself out in frustration from a pressuring town. At the time, I did not know the rule would be enforced. I did not know his flip. I was trying to get that feeling concretely expressed in case it happened and he flipped town.

Besides. If I knew that he was scum, why would me asking who was happy help. It wouldn't make me look any better.

First off, you should be extremely happy, and the way you phrased your question sounds like you're asking them why they're happy about it (when it should be obvious). Secondly, it's like a free day-vig. You kill the person you think is most scummy, and you're happy about it either way. If scum, yay! If town, well, there's the biggest distraction gone, but we can still talk about reactions to the scummy person and who made the weakest case on them, etc. It's actually an extremely powerful tool, and one that you should have been happy about either way, regardless of alignment, especially if your vote was on him (and he was at L-2? or something close to there).

Again. Thats all well and good in hindsight, but when I made that comment he had not been mod killed yet, and I suspected that if he was he would have flipped town.

I was happy when he flipped scum. I was not happy at the time, because I suspected the flip would be town.

As for the day vig comment... I don't know anything about that. I am a simple player who has only played with roleblockers, docs, and cops. I don't know if I would be happy about a day vig hitting townies. Should I be?

[Scien]

(I was not happy at the time that he claimed about his fun level, because I thought that was just frustration talking and likely townie doing so)

^ To be more clear. Sigh.