Mini 856 - Star Control: Zeta Sextantis - Over

[Kast]

@Zito-

If there was one scum left I'd agree but I'm guessing there's at least two left.

This isn't really applicable. I can use my power again tonight and again on each subsequent night. As the game progresses, I can confirm with more and more townies.

-The reason I posted is because I didn't want this information lost. If Excedrin is scum, then he knows my race and the ability I used. My ability lends itself well as something I can partially claim fairly safely.

@Rising/Zito-

I am sort of suspicious of Kast's claimed ability. There are a race of pranksters in the Hierarchy whose name I don't remember right now, but they have a tradition of broadcasting messages and pretending to be someone else. I was pretty much just waiting for someone to use an ability like this and trying to convince us that it clears him.

The Umgah. But they didn't have to aboard someone's ship to use their Caster.

I don't follow Zito's clarification.

After looking up the Umgah, it looks like my ability does not necessarily confirm my race. Regardless, the nature of my ability; informing my target of who I am and what it does; does not lend itself as a scum ability.

[sigma]

Sigma, assigning one person to do something makes them a likely NK target. I'd rather we just see if anyone decides to pick you up over night.

Agreed. However, I'm worried about the issue Rising mentioned in 385 where everyone thinks "someone else should pick this person up", doubly so since we have two players floating. I think every townie without a decent night action should pick up either porkens or me, but obviously I'm biased.

[Excedrin]

- Kast is Pkunk
- Excedrin is a really big idiot. I don't see how that proves what he is either/or.

Apparently he can investigate?

Lulz, confirmed. (Not commenting on strikethru part, stop role/ability fishing).

The Pkunk insult their targets because, being such cosmically wonderful and happy creatures, they have to work themselves up to fight anyone. The in-game effect is that insults are how they recharge their ship's energy.

I thought they insult themselves for that reason. Anyway, what I know of Kast's ability fits.

My target receives mod confirmation of both flavor and function. The flavor alone is enough to confirm my race (and therefore my affiliation). From a mafia game mechanic PoV, it also suggests itself as a townie power since it reveals me to my target, inherently drawing attention.

Agreed. I'm not certain what Kast's ability does, but I know that the flavor indicates that he is definitely Pkunk.

If you use the Thraddash ship in super-melee, the afterburner can be used to evade stuff. So flavor regarding sigma seems reasonable.

b) It's fair to wonder where it went, but the WIFOM that you may have submitted no kill is still there.

There's probably a lot of possible explanations (including sigma nokill), but we have 4 players who haven't posted yet.

Vote: Rosso Carne

[Kast]

I'm not certain what Kast's ability does

This contradicts what Spyrex told me. I specifically asked if my target is told the effect(s) of my ability and he said that the target is told the effect(s).

@Zito-
The Ultronomicon wiki on the Umgah states that the Caster was stolen by the Spathi. At what point in time did this happen?

[Plum]

Kast, I thought Keelie was town, and was pretty sure of this because I assumed that knowing her IRL would make her easier for me to read. *Shrug*, she gets an ego boost for fooling me in her second game I guess.

I recognize this sort of cognitive bias; it happened when I played a game with my sister and such. I need to read this thread more slowly but may have to go out very soon. Sorry for not announcing a V/LA period.

More soon.

[Porkens]

I wasn't lying about the ship. I believe I said "it's on one of your non-confimed town lists." But then I let it slip that it was Hierarchy anyway a bit later.

The lack of a nightkill bothers me. I think that the scum would be able to kill a ship and everyone on it with their night action (my podship had that ability plus doc plus the ability to do both in one night.)

I'm lead to believe that the lack of a nightkill was a strategic decision.

Sigma could be scum-gambiting here, in order to be picked up by a town or by his scumbuddies. I fully believe that he has *some* ability to interact with his ship-mates.

I propose that no one pick him up, just in case.

And RC dies unless he starts posting.

Vote: RC

[Kast]

The lack of a nightkill bothers me. I think that the scum would be able to kill a ship and everyone on it with their night action (my podship had that ability plus doc plus the ability to do both in one night.)

I'm lead to believe that the lack of a nightkill was a strategic decision.

I strongly dislike this speculation (Porkens isn't the only one who is doing it). If there is a doctor, you are narrowing down (or implicitly doing so) that you are not the doctor. This holds for many other theoretical townie roles that could be involved with the lack of dead players last night.

[Porkens]

Oh quit rolefishing already

[Kast]

@Porkens-
I'll take that as agreement. So how about stopping?

[Porkens]

-If both Porkens and Sigma are town, that makes a strong implication that scum have some ability or incentive for getting on other player's ships. This makes me much less willing to rescue anyone.

I don't quite follow this part. Your assumption is that we are town but leads to the idea that you don't want to rescue us.

@Porkens-
I'll take that as agreement. So how about stopping?

I've said my peace on the subject.

Why did you say you wouldn't reveal your role/power and then do so anyway?

[Kast]

N.B. Porkens' post this follows the exact same pattern that he used D1:
-Make an anti-town post.
-Get called on it.
-Object by saying "rolefishing", even though there was no rolefishing.

[Porkens]

You were the one that brought up "DOC OMFG," I was giving my thoughts on the results of the night.

[sigma]

I propose that no one pick him up, just in case.

Gee, thanks, floating-in-space-buddy. I obviously disagree with this plan. Is your theory that I jettisoned so that I could use my ninja abilities on whoever picks me up? I think the town might notice if the person who picks me up dies and I'm still alive.

Explain to me why we should retrieve you from space and leave me to die.

[Excedrin]

Sigma could be scum-gambiting here, in order to be picked up by a town or by his scumbuddies. I fully believe that he has *some* ability to interact with his ship-mates.

Why doesn't this apply to Porkens too?

If the ability to interact in some way with ship-mates is possible at all in the game, that sigma claimed this kind of ability and Porkens hasn't doesn't really indicate alignment of either of you. Am I missing something?

[Kast]

@Porkens-

I don't quite follow this part. Your assumption is that we are town but leads to the idea that you don't want to rescue us.

There are three situations we can be in. Two of them are clearly better to leave both Porkens and Sigma to die. The third situation would be better to have both of you rescued. The three situations are indistinguishable, however, the second and third situations suggest that townies should be very careful about letting anyone board their ships.

-If you are both scum, townies should not pick you up.
-If one of you is town and one is scum, there is some incentive to picking up the one who is a townie, but townies would be better off picking up neither of you (reduces to 1-for-1 trade situation).
-If both are town, then townies shouldn't know your affiliation and should at best be hesitant to pick you up. The claimed circumstances, that scum want to board someone else's ship, inclines townies against picking up either of you.

It's really not that complicated.

I've said my peace on the subject.

By already saying your piece, do you mean you have already done your damage? You sure haven't said anything at all relevant to rolefishing (FYI- including the word "doc" in a post does not make it rolefishing).

Why did you say you wouldn't reveal your role/power and then do so anyway?

You are lying. I said I would partial claim and I did partial claim. I suppose you might be trying to fish for more details about my role?

You were the one that brought up "DOC OMFG," I was giving my thoughts on the results of the night.

False. You posted "I'm not a doc, I think we have no doc", and I posted, "Your post is anti-town and helps scum find townie power roles." So please stop helping them and don't encourage townies to engage in similar anti-town behavior.

[sigma]

@Porkens-
There are three situations we can be in. Two of them are clearly better to leave both Porkens and Sigma to die. The third situation would be better to have both of you rescued. The three situations are indistinguishable, however, the second and third situations suggest that townies should be very careful about letting anyone board their ships.

-If you are both scum, townies should not pick you up.
-If one of you is town and one is scum, there is some incentive to picking up the one who is a townie, but townies would be better off picking up neither of you (reduces to 1-for-1 trade situation).
-If both are town, then townies shouldn't know your affiliation and should at best be hesitant to pick you up. The claimed circumstances, that scum want to board someone else's ship, inclines townies against picking up either of you.

Who is even claiming that scum want to board someone else's ship? I haven't seen a single indication that this is true.

Moreover, your analysis of the situation is misleading. You don't even mention that if I'm town, there are extra benefits to someone picking me up (another player gets confirmed.) I think the correct way to look at the situation is something you said earlier: if you think one of us is town, then retreive us.

[Papa Zito]

The Ultronomicon wiki on the Umgah states that the Caster was stolen by the Spathi. At what point in time did this happen?

Just a few years before SCII begins. So for our purposes the Caster is either still in their hands or Zelnick has it, depending on the year (grr SpyreX).

---

Incidentally, Orz would want to board other people's ships. Just sayin.

[sigma]

Orz aren't likely to be Hierarchy, though. And like I said, if someone gets boarded and killed, that's a pretty obvious giveaway.

[Porkens]

@Porkens-

I don't quite follow this part. Your assumption is that we are town but leads to the idea that you don't want to rescue us.

There are three situations we can be in. Two of them are clearly better to leave both Porkens and Sigma to die. The third situation would be better to have both of you rescued. The three situations are indistinguishable, however, the second and third situations suggest that townies should be very careful about letting anyone board their ships.

-If you are both scum, townies should not pick you up.
-If one of you is town and one is scum, there is some incentive to picking up the one who is a townie, but townies would be better off picking up neither of you (reduces to 1-for-1 trade situation).
-If both are town, then townies shouldn't know your affiliation and should at best be hesitant to pick you up. The claimed circumstances, that scum want to board someone else's ship, inclines townies against picking up either of you.

It's really not that complicated.

No, you said "IF they are town, THEN scum want to get on other ships, THEREFORE don't pick them up." Your first condition was that we were

town

.

It may not be complicated in your own head, but your doing a poor job explaining it.

I've said my peace on the subject.

By already saying your piece, do you mean you have already done your damage? You sure haven't said anything at all relevant to rolefishing (FYI- including the word "doc" in a post does not make it rolefishing).

What damage? To

imply

that I'm not the doc? You're saying this is a scumtell?

Spelling your rolefishing out clearly: You said "oh you just said your not the doc." That opens the door for me to give a more solid stance, which I'm not going to do.

Why did you say you wouldn't reveal your role/power and then do so anyway?

You are lying. I said I would partial claim and I did partial claim. I suppose you might be trying to fish for more details about my role?

You said "I'm not going to give out info about my role." Then you said "I can do X, Y, and Z and I'm Pkunk" no? Am I reading the chain of events wrong?

You were the one that brought up "DOC OMFG," I was giving my thoughts on the results of the night.

False. You posted "I'm not a doc, I think we have no doc", and I posted, "Your post is anti-town and helps scum find townie power roles." So please stop helping them and don't encourage townies to engage in similar anti-town behavior.

[/quote]

Now you are lying. I never said I wasn't the doc, nor did I say I didn't think we had a doc. I didn't encourage anyone to do anything of the kind. You are just straight making shit up now.

[Dry-fit]

Vote Sigma

.

Unclaimed red ship pretty much means he has to be scum.

Not really. I am on a red ship too.

The bodyguard possibility is an interesting possibility that hadn't occurred to me, though.

Why is it interesting if you know it's not what happened?

[sigma]

Another red-ship claim... wowsers.

Why is it interesting if you know it's not what happened?

That's the only thing over the last few days that was worth commenting on? Seriously, any additional thoughts on just about anything else would be helpful.

It was interesting because I genuinely was at a loss as to explanations for hypothetical sigma-scum's ship getting blown up, and that was the first plausible thing I'd heard.

[SpyreX]

Votecount:

Kmd4390 (0)
Dry-fit (0)
Locke Lamora (0)
Papa Zito (0)
Excedrin (0)
Plum (0)
Rising (0)
Kast (0)
sigma (2): Papa Zito, Kmd4390

Rosso Carne (4): Rising,Kast,Excedrin,Porkens

Porkens (0)

Not Voting: Dry-fit, Llocke Lamora, Plum, sigma, Rosso Carne

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch!

Deadline: Saturday, October 17th at 10:30 PM PST

The following players could face modkill at the current rate: Locke Lamora, Rosso Carne. Prods are sent.

[Kast]

@Porkens-
There are three possible situations. The first two are definite situations where it is bad to pick up either of you. The third (which is the only case where it would be reasonable to consider picking up either of you) implies a game setup in which townies do not want to pick up anyone. Your argument relies on crap logic.

The argument structure is:
IF A AND B, THEN C. IF C, THEN D.
An underlying assumption which is not stated because it is obvious is:
IF NOT A OR NOT B, THEN D.

You are fallaciously claiming that my argument is:
IFF A AND B, THEN C. IF C, THEN D.

A=Porkens is town.
B=Sigma is town.
C=It is probable that scum want to get aboard a town ship.
D=Town should not rescue

What damage? To imply that I'm not the doc? You're saying this is a scumtell?

Spelling your rolefishing out clearly: You said "oh you just said your not the doc." That opens the door for me to give a more solid stance, which I'm not going to do.

-Implying that you are not the doc IS damage. You promote others to join your speculation with agreement or disagreement. If you are town, then you have narrowed down possibilities for scum. This is anti-town. It is not a scumtell, it is a bad player tell. Your implication that not being a scumtell makes something okay is crap-logic.
-False. You already spelled out that you are not the doc. You should not have done that. It is terrible play for town. Telling you to stop talking about it is COMPLETELY OPPOSITE of telling you to comment with confirmation or denial.

You said "I'm not going to give out info about my role." Then you said "I can do X, Y, and Z and I'm Pkunk" no? Am I reading the chain of events wrong?

You are a liar. Your post is false both in letter AND in spirit. If it were a simple mistake, then you should have checked after I called you on this and posted evidence if you thought I was mistaken. Your failure to do so is very anti-town.

-

I'm going to go ahead and reveal part of what you're referring to

. Thanks for the breadcrumb and your discretion in not immediately revealing me.

I prefer that you keep my ability a secret for now

.

I revealed part of my claim:
-I am Pkunk
-I can insult someone at night
--My target learns the player name of person who insulted them
--My target learns the effect of the insult
--My target learns the flavor of the insult
I have not revealed the effect of my ability. I have not revealed additional powers or even if I have any. Your attempts to draw more comments about this are fishing.

Now you are lying. I never said I wasn't the doc, nor did I say I didn't think we had a doc. I didn't encourage anyone to do anything of the kind. You are just straight making shit up now.

I never wrote "DOC OMFG". But I'm not going to pretend you are stupid (I'd appreciate if you extended that courtesy to everyone else here) and make a crap logic argument against that.

It is obviously a paraphrase. You directly stated that you think the mafia chose to not kill. This is equivalent to stating that the lack of a night kill is NOT because of any action that you took AND that you do not believe it was a result of any action that any other player took. If you are a townie, then it is possible that you are intentionally trying to mislead scum, however, scum are in a far better position than townies to determine this AND your post itself encourages other townies to comment on your speculation. Any further comments also help scum.

And to forestall your probable attempt to evade my point, I am explicitly asking that you DO NOT CONFIRM OR DENY THAT YOU ARE NOT A DOCTOR. DO NOT CONFIRM OR DENY THAT YOU ARE ANY OTHER ROLE, UNLESS YOU INTEND TO CLAIM AND FEEL THAT THE CLAIM HELPS TOWN MORE THAN IT HURTS. ALSO DON'T CONFIRM OR DENY WHETHER YOU INTENDED TO TRICK SCUM. You've already done damage, so STOP before making things worse.

Your very post implies that you don't realize your speculation is anti-town, which is EXACTLY why I explained it and warned against others making the same anti-town mistakes. This is not inherently scummy, but is very anti-town.

Your objection to stopping players from helping scum narrow down power townies is BOTH anti-town AND scummy. Your misrepresentation to defend your anti-town actions likewise scummy.

@Sigma-

It was interesting because I genuinely was at a loss as to explanations for hypothetical sigma-scum's ship getting blown up, and that was the first plausible thing I'd heard.

-It is hard to believe this is true. If it is, then I suggest you look at the wiki for standard roles.
-Bodyguard is only tangentially an explanation for hypothetical Sigma-scum's ship getting blown up. Hypothetical Sigma-scum would not bodyguard against his own scum team kill, so unless you were referring to hypothetical Sigma-scum bodyguard-protecting a hypothetical scumbuddy from a hypothetical vig, the explanation doesn't seem that interesting (or rather, only seems interesting as an exercise in convoluted hypothetical explanations).

It could be an explanation for hypothetical Sigma-town's ship getting blown up unintentionally (however that suffers from the problem that Sigma-town should not lie to us AND that your ship does not seem to fit flavorwise with bodyguard ability).

@Dry-fit-
Does your race match your ship?

[Kast]

@Porkens-
If you are scum, then go ahead and ignore what I posted. It'll make things much easier if scum-Porkens continues with the crap logic and anti-town behavior.

[Kast]

@Dry-Fit-
Was your claim of ship color prompted by Excedrin's claim of knowing RC's ship color?