Mini 845 - The Amish Village (Game Over)


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Post Post #500 (ISO) » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:05 pm

Post by magnus_orion »

not that this is worth much at this point, but
unvote vote: le chat

I rather dislike mostly everything he's posted on this page, and it makes me suspicious. He's basically taking a position that rayfrost is scummy, his motivation is to avoid fence sitting (alarm bells), and his reasons are left for the most part vague and unstated.
I'll admit that some of what ray has posted have left me very inclined to drop the town read on ray (though nothing has really convinced me he's scum, either), but I believe that le chat's vote, or more specifically, what he's done around that vote, DO warrant attention here.
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Post Post #501 (ISO) » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:06 pm

Post by magnus_orion »

ebwop: "this page" refers of course to page 20.
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Post Post #502 (ISO) » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:43 pm

Post by Ojanen »

Ok, Ray's still coming off like he's minimizing the information he's giving off. Does set off alarms in the pressured context, because after an extended period of time it's starting to seem more and more likely intentional.

@chamber:
chamber wrote:After more thought Id also be willing to lynch fishy. I realize now thinking about it that nuwens play in this game and the other game we played together is remarkably different, and she was town in that one.
You gave a reason on why you would lynch Fishy!
You've already broken your meta. It's gone. Crumbled. Nothing to lose, a personal scumclaim if we would go by your own words. Now you can explain why Kai is scummy, please.

@Fishy
Fishy wrote:@Ojanen: you say you "don't feel confident the elaborations weren't thought up afterwards". I believe this is because the initial post was made when I didn't have enough time to explain things fully. Is there any particular inconsistency (or anything else) that makes you think my justification made up afterwards to fit, other than that I didn't initially post my full reasoning?
Just got a gut feeling of possible opportunism.
Fishy wrote:In light of the meta on chamber, and Ray's rather unconvincing recent post of reads, Ray is now my top suspect. MM was scummy, and Ray has done nothing to redeem that.
We've already gone through this, but just didn't like the scent that you present originally here the actions of Ray as non-redeeming (which implies non-positive rather than negative), call out the actions by MM scummy that you were mostly undecided on earlier, get questioned and say that reasons for finding Ray's read list scummy are guttish but you're in a hurry, and then come back for a wordy elaboration.
Yes, you did go back to original stance on MM before I pointed the thing out, but just find the process it akin tocertain scum-changing-mind behavioral tells.

Cool, SC here!
How's that catch up doing?
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Post Post #503 (ISO) » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:53 pm

Post by Kairyuu »

The lack of a RayFrost lynch is bothering me. I have nothing left to say on the subject. He's scum, plain and simple. Can someone finish the job already so that we can stop rehashing the same tired points?
Because, no matter how you dress it up, that's what the world is. A community of idiots doing a series of things until the world explodes and we all die.
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Post Post #504 (ISO) » Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:08 pm

Post by magnus_orion »

The lack of a RayFrost lynch is bothering me. I have nothing left to say on the subject. He's scum, plain and simple. Can someone finish the job already so that we can stop rehashing the same tired points?
why do I feel like your involvement in this game is disturbingly limited? Its not necessarily scummy as it is mildly irritating.
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Post Post #505 (ISO) » Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:04 pm

Post by RayFrost »

Ojanen wrote:Ok, Ray's still coming off like he's minimizing the information he's giving off. Does set off alarms in the pressured context, because after an extended period of time it's starting to seem more and more likely intentional.
gah, fine. I'll explain it. :?

1. I'm lazy and am not feeling very motivated to post in this game specifically for reasons I don't even know.

2. I've found that the information I give upon my death often isn't that useful/accurate to anybody or gets ignored/easily defended against.

3. I am not inclined to actually prevent my lynch as I feel it would be more beneficial to town to not have somebody who doesn't feel like fully participating around (not to mention this will give town more info than I believe I would be able to find, considering it's doubtful that I'll post a LoS that
doesn't
seem to "just rehash the points people have already made")
don't you feel silly now?
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Post Post #506 (ISO) » Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:50 pm

Post by SerialClergyman »

Hi guys, this is a quick post to say that I'm still re-reading. I had to attend to an ongoing game that ate a LOT of my reading time but I am half way through and will be with you shortly.
I'm old now.
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Post Post #507 (ISO) » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:24 pm

Post by Kairyuu »

magnus_orion wrote:
The lack of a RayFrost lynch is bothering me. I have nothing left to say on the subject. He's scum, plain and simple. Can someone finish the job already so that we can stop rehashing the same tired points?
why do I feel like your involvement in this game is disturbingly limited? Its not necessarily scummy as it is mildly irritating.
Because my involvement in this game is disturbingly limited? Sounds about right to me. I'm sure that once we lynch the scumbucket who isn't even trying to defend himself anymore and we get some fresh material from a Night phase I'll be much more involved in
lynching chamber-scum
the discussion of the Day.
Because, no matter how you dress it up, that's what the world is. A community of idiots doing a series of things until the world explodes and we all die.
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Post Post #508 (ISO) » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:42 pm

Post by chamber »

Ojanen wrote: @chamber:
chamber wrote:After more thought Id also be willing to lynch fishy. I realize now thinking about it that nuwens play in this game and the other game we played together is remarkably different, and she was town in that one.
You gave a reason on why you would lynch Fishy!
You've already broken your meta. It's gone. Crumbled. Nothing to lose, a personal scumclaim if we would go by your own words. Now you can explain why Kai is scummy, please.
If I had time I'd go make a more robust check of nuwens meta but I don't have it, as we are both at deadline and I'm busy with holiday stuffs.As such I threw it out there hoping someone else could confirm or deny it. Its an exception to the rule forced by circumstance, nothing else.


On rosso: I'm taking his lack of scummy actions to suggest that he's slightly townie. I haven't seen any specific actions that he only does as town in this game, but that's only because I have no idea what such actions are.


On me/reddye: I still don't have time to go cite specific examples but from memory as reddye I was much more willing to explain myself, especially in regards to votes. Without going back to check I can't gauge how willing I was compared to normal though. I hate doing so as such it was a 'forced action' on my part, that is to say something I was forcing myself to do to seem like I wasn't me.
Taking a break from the site.
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Post Post #509 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:34 am

Post by Ojanen »

SC, are you intending to finish catch up/post before the deadline on 14th?

I just reread some. Percy has come off very townie to me. However I just now checked out some of the references better and one thing in his catch up post irked me -
Percy wrote:All is not lost, however. Rosso says:
Rosso Carne 199 wrote:If someone blatantly says they dont know who is scum, they are scum. Flat out.
...and yet when le Chat says blatantly:
le Chat 260 wrote:I don't know who is scum but I'm not scum.
...his response is to ignore it. Didn't even notice. So much for "flat out". He's willing to adopt strong, overinflated rhetoric to push the cases he wants to push, but doesn't do this in any systematic way. Scum.
This accusation is pretty much just black&white untrue, because Rosso did answer, and also the le chat line was under the direct quote of Rosso's statement. Rosso messed up some quotes when answering so I could see Percy overlooking that. But the manner in which le chat said the "I don't know" line was pretty blatantly an intended comment to the Rosso line. The imo misrepresentation of that is strange.
Original exchange, post 264 with better tags:
Rosso Carne wrote:
le Chat wrote: sorry for stagnating. i had a few tests the past few classdays and thats not normal. even after i checked in to say id post in a day it took two because i was so very tired.
Rosso Carne @ Magnus wrote: If someone blatantly says they dont know who is scum, they are scum. Flat out. If someone refuses to divulge their info, then its up o the questioner to figure out if theyre lying.

Welcome to mafia.

I don't know who is scum but I'm not scum. I think some people are scummy but I'm fallible. Is that what you mean?
No, if you actually have scummy people on your dar, then thats not scummy. no one KNOWS who is scum except for the scum themselves. But its people who are all "i dont have a read on anyone" that are typically scum
Some elaboration by Percy on his thought process would be appreciated.
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Post Post #510 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:43 am

Post by Amished »

Mod Votecount 1-20

RayFrost (6): Herodotus; SerialClergyman; Kairyuu; VP Baltar; FishytheFish; le Chat
FishytheFish: (1): Ojanen
Kairyuu (1): Chamber
Rosso_Carne (1): Percy
le Chat (1): magnus_orion

Not voting (2): Rosso_Carne; RayFrost;

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Rosso's prod hasn't been picked up.

2 days, 6 hours til deadline (basically)
I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.

No, my name is not "Ed."
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Post Post #511 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:19 pm

Post by Kairyuu »

-poke-

-poke-

Someone hammer, or someone give me a second vote so I can. Drawing this out so long is utterly pointless.
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Post Post #512 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:37 pm

Post by VP Baltar »

Who else do you think is scum Kairyuu? You haven't said much lately, so I'd like at least some kind of commitment from on Day 1 on your positions thus far.
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Post Post #513 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:26 pm

Post by Percy »

chamber 508 wrote:On rosso: I'm taking his lack of scummy actions to suggest that he's slightly townie. I haven't seen any specific actions that he only does as town in this game, but that's only because I have no idea what such actions are.
OK, but nothing Rosso has done has given me townvibes, and you seem to have set him to "default town", which is strange.
Ojanen 509 wrote:This accusation is pretty much just black&white untrue, because Rosso did answer, and also the le chat line was under the direct quote of Rosso's statement. Rosso messed up some quotes when answering so I could see Percy overlooking that. But the manner in which le chat said the "I don't know" line was pretty blatantly an intended comment to the Rosso line. The imo misrepresentation of that is strange.
I completely missed the Rosso post. I thought that Rosso had ignored le Chat, after le Chat did the one thing that Rosso claimed made a player blatantly scum. I did look, but obviously not hard enough. I'll retract that line of investigation, and
unvote
to re-read Rosso in ISO. It looks like he's flaked, too. :(
Kairyuu 511 wrote:Someone hammer, or someone give me a second vote so I can. Drawing this out so long is utterly pointless.
I'll hammer in two days, at the deadline. I don't like cutting days short if it can be avoided.
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Post Post #514 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:16 pm

Post by Kairyuu »

@VP Baltar:
VP Baltar wrote:Who else do you think is scum Kairyuu? You haven't said much lately, so I'd like at least some kind of commitment from on Day 1 on your positions thus far.
RayFrost and chamber are scum, and magnus might be. Those are my reads.

@Percy:
Percy wrote:I'll hammer in two days, at the deadline. I don't like cutting days short if it can be avoided.
That's dumb. If you think he should be lynched, then hammer him. Sitting around with your thumb up your ass while nothing new is being said helps no one and serves only to FURTHER diminish the attention that people (myself included) want to give to this game.
Because, no matter how you dress it up, that's what the world is. A community of idiots doing a series of things until the world explodes and we all die.
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Post Post #515 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:43 pm

Post by Herodotus »

@le Chat 484:
I was hoping to see what you had to say
before
Serial Clergyman caught up.


Rayfrost is looking as scummy as ever.
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Post Post #516 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:23 pm

Post by le Chat »

magnus_orion wrote:not that this is worth much at this point, but
unvote vote: le chat

I rather dislike mostly everything he's posted on this page, and it makes me suspicious. He's basically taking a position that rayfrost is scummy, his motivation is to avoid fence sitting (alarm bells), and his reasons are left for the most part vague and unstated.
I'll admit that some of what ray has posted have left me very inclined to drop the town read on ray (though nothing has really convinced me he's scum, either), but I believe that le chat's vote, or more specifically, what he's done around that vote, DO warrant attention here.
i explicitly mentioned fence sitting because it is something that i have gotten a consensus out of all my completed and active games that it is what i need to work on.

basically, you agree with me that ray frost is scummy, but you dont agree with the manner by which i posted what i did. at the end of the Day, this does appear to me like if you are scum, and ray frost ends up town, then you are agreeing with the ray frost lynch while lining up your next lynch, on me, by saying my reasoning wasnt good. follow?

i still support the ray frost lynch. i am also currently in atlanta and have court in the morning and then midterm week from hell so i might not be able to post between now and when deadline hits.
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Post Post #517 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:55 pm

Post by Percy »

Kairyuu 514 wrote:If you think he should be lynched, then hammer him.
Sitting around with your thumb up your ass while nothing new is being said
helps no one and serves only to FURTHER diminish the attention that people (myself included) want to give to this game.
If I agree with the bolded section, I would agree with your conclusion. I also don't think hammering a player to make you interested in this game is good play.

I'm particularly interested in the magnus/le Chat interaction, and what SerialClergyman will say about the game, before Ray's flip.
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Post Post #518 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:00 pm

Post by magnus_orion »

yep. Le chat is definitely scum.

i explicitly mentioned fence sitting because it is something that i have gotten a consensus out of all my completed and active games that it is what i need to work on.

basically, you agree with me that ray frost is scummy, but you dont agree with the manner by which i posted what i did. at the end of the Day, this does appear to me like if you are scum, and ray frost ends up town, then you are agreeing with the ray frost lynch while lining up your next lynch, on me, by saying my reasoning wasnt good. follow?

i still support the ray frost lynch. i am also currently in atlanta and have court in the morning and then midterm week from hell so i might not be able to post between now and when deadline hits.
Yes, I happen to follow. I happen to follow your reasoning well enough to know that it is based off the idea that you are voting a towny. In which case, it is not I, but you who are lining up lynches by calling me scummy. Further, I've disagreed with this lynch, so how am I lining up lynches?
And your reasoning is important. I don't give a care at all about what your actual position is relative to my mine.
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Post Post #519 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:05 pm

Post by magnus_orion »

that come back makes me fully behind a le chat lynch btw.
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Post Post #520 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:36 pm

Post by SerialClergyman »

I'm with you magnus, le chat wagon all the way.
vote le chat


Now I'm going to take some time to make you all apparantly think I'm more scummy.

1) I hate day 1 is a view I totally sympathise with. You guys might be brilliant at naming scum in the first three pages, I most certainly am not. I hate D1, I hate the lack of info at my disposal and really feel you're trying to get something like a 10% bonus on random chance for your vote. Obviously it needs to happen, and obviously it gives you a lot of info on reflection, but personally, I sympathised with MM completely when she said she wasn't a d1 player because I've been there. (look at the /invitational, for example.)

2) I also would have totally been up for a Rosso lynch. I hate the attitude, abusiveness and general lack of anything worthwhile brought to the table. I'd have been therei n a flash. The last time this happened to me it was Don Johnson being abrasive in lumberjack mafia and we held off voting him and he turned scum, so since that moment I'm all for voting people who rub me that far the wrong way, especially D1.

So now I'm totally behind two causes you guys feel are scummy, I'll settle in with my opinion on the game.

Red is useless and has given up, so a lynch wouldn't be disasterous, but my suspicion is it'll hit town. That looks like the scapegoat lynch to me.

Ojanen oozes town like a jelly doughnut oozes tasty filling. My suspicion is that she always sounds protown, but there are other tells as scum, like the amount of posts and the energy behind the reasoning that we can use. But certainly zero reason to think she's scummy at the moment.

VP also has a gut read of town for me this game.

Magnus has a real estate agent read. The sort of read where you feel like the guy is on your side but you have the sneaking suspicion he actually just wants you to sell yoru house at any price so he can pick up his commission and move on. Could just be a playstyle thing, I only have a weird meta of magnus (SK). Either way I'm not a fan of a lynch for him, and agree with his case, so I can't complain.

Percy also reads protown to me. Not as strong a read, but enough to not make me want to lynch him.

Fishy reads pro-town enough to make me not want to lynch.

Pretty much everyone else in the game is fair game at this stage, in my opinion. Despite veiled threats of awesomeness cooking under the surface, I tend to read based on towntells over scumtells nowadays, and so that makes chamber, rosso et al difficult to get a grip on, and therefore totally fair game.

Kairyuu picking up on a slight scumtell and running over the top with it totally agrees with my meta on kaitown. Having said that, his lack of enthusiasm is pissweak. Go take drugs or Red Bull or whatever you young people do these days and come out swinging, dammit!

Finally, Hero gets a stern look. He's been a complete nothing read for me so far. I keep tossing up possible opinions and none of them stick. It's liek a magic eye 3d puzzle, I think if I stare at him long enough I'll eventually see the sailboat.

So - personal opinion is that Red isn't scum and we should all pile onto the cat. Ready? Go!
I'm old now.
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Post Post #521 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:38 pm

Post by SerialClergyman »

Err -
unvote, vote le chat
I'm old now.
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Post Post #522 (ISO) » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:55 am

Post by Fishythefish »

The Rules wrote:-When a deadline is reached with no majority of votes, a no-lynch occurs.
We have a little more than a day and a half until dealine. My opinion is that all townies have a responsibility, if they think there is a chance they will not get back online before deadline, to vote RayFrost, who at this stage is the only player with any realisitc chance of getting lynched today.

The applies pretty much irrespective of your opinions on Ray. A claimed VT is almost always a better lynch than no lynch. We will gain a significant amount of information from his lynch, and the odds are heavily in favour of Ray being lynched at some stage (particularly if he's townie). Not lynching him today is effectively wasting a future lynch.

@SC: you said why you disagreed with the reasons other people have given for Ray being scum. Why do you think he's town?

I don't think Le Chat is anywhere near being a viable lynch at this stage of the day, particularly since he has said he may not be able to post before deadline. I also don't think he's that likely to be scum.

For me, Ray's recent play falls mostly into a giving-up phase - perhaps this itself is marginally scummy, because town have more reason to try and at least provide some input before they go, but it's more or less null. Just one thing stands out-
RayFrost wrote:Wait... if I'm scum, fishy is scum? that's confuzzling...

second paragraph feels like WIFOM.
I can't see why you would post this as town, while ignoring practically everything else in the game - the post he was responding to wasn't hugely noteworthy (in the context of his own impending lynch and his lack of published suspicions). FMPOV, this feels like a weak, WIFOMy attempt to link me with him, after magnus made that link. Even for those who don't know my alignment, I think it looks like a flail intended to confuse the town as to Ray's partners.
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Post Post #523 (ISO) » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:58 am

Post by VP Baltar »

le Chat wrote:basically, you agree with me that ray frost is scummy, but you dont agree with the manner by which i posted what i did.
What makes you believe that he thinks ray is scummy? As far as I can tell, he doesn't think ray is all that scummy. Please elaborate on this.
SC wrote:Red is useless and has given up, so a lynch wouldn't be disasterous, but my suspicion is it'll hit town. That looks like the scapegoat lynch to me.
How serious is this? Why don't we just get him replaced since he has apparently flaked anyhow.
SC wrote:Magnus has a real estate agent read. The sort of read where you feel like the guy is on your side but you have the sneaking suspicion he actually just wants you to sell yoru house at any price so he can pick up his commission and move on.
haha, I <3 this description.

le Chat wagon is interesting and not something I am really opposed to in the sense that I have any kind of town read on him...but I'm not sure it is practical at this point. Ray basically is playing like the scum fish who has been pulled from the pond and left to flop to a slow death on the beach. If he does somehow manages to flip town, I don't think I'll feel bad in the least about his lynch, as it still seems the right play to make.
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Post Post #524 (ISO) » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:03 am

Post by Fishythefish »

I believe in SC's post he twice used "Red" for "Ray".

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