Mini 852- Crayola Catastrophe Game Over (Post 1158)

[Shanba]

Imagine that was red.[/color=red]

[Pomegranate]

Or not.

[SocioPath]

Maybe all this is just some really really aggressive bussing.

Any reason for thinking this?

Chibo's overconfidence and Shanbo's scuminess.

If correct, everybody has posted after the lynch. So I'm curious:
How come nobody asked what a jester is and how it already won?

This question should be answered in this queue:
First - Chibo and Nacho
Second - GD and Kirby
Third - Pome, Socio and Budja.

Doesn't matter when you answer, as long as the those mentioned before your group answered before your group.

I refuse to answer that question based on that it is dumb.

When this game, and a different one of ours, have been completed, we'll talk about stubbornness.
You may think it's dumb, it might give us information. So please answer.

See, the thing is, scum get very uneasy when you keep things from them. So stubbornness can be very protown. Especially when scum keep asking you one particular question over and over again that is irrelevant to anything other than their own personal motivations. Its foolish to try to ignore the information gained from responses to stubbornness.

But wait...why I'm I explaining this to YOU of all people? You are the one that posted this to try and save your own ass from who you replaced:

Regarding unexplained votes:

Did you know that unexplained votes are the best things ever?
A few underlying principles:
1) Players -- especially when scum -- like to be comfortable. Bringing pressure that is difficult to respond to pulls them out of their comfort zones, making them react in a way they normally wouldn't react. This makes it significantly more likely that they will say or do something particularly telling of their alignments.
2) In the long-term, players often reveal the most about themselves when acting on limited information. While this maxim generally applies to the notion that D1 and D2 are the most revealing parts of a mafia game, it also applies when dealing with "unexplained votes."
2a) Let's look at the general case of an unexplained vote from a player of unknown alignment. The motivation for a protown player is to discern the intent of the voter, generally in order to obtain their alignment. The motivation of an anti-town player is to discern the intent of the voter (which sometimes involves seeking alignment) and to best utilize the situation to their advantage. There is an important, if subtle, difference. By cultivating our exploration of these differences, we can find new tools to seek and destroy the scumbaggoes amongst us.
2b) Now consider the case where I am a confirmed protown player making an unexplainded vote. In this case, my motivation is very clear. In some way, I am seeking to find scum. Here, I'm actually going to dip into one of my trade secrets and note that protown players tend to have a broader picture of our voter's intent, whereas scums tend to focus more on themselves (or, sometimes, their allies). If the person I'm voting is more concerened with how everyone else reacts than with deflecting my attack, they are usually more likely to be protown. If they immediately seek to bury someone else in accusations, wildly reject my vote/claims outright, or blame-shift, they're more likely to be scum.
3) Taking an alternate approach to scumhunting allows one to take advantage of "weak points" in other players' gameplay. Most mafia is played in the public arena. Players openly debate and discuss who is scum and why. Thus, most people tend to focus most of their attention on growing and evolving as players in this realm of open banter. A couple years ago, I learned that the vast majority of players didn't know how to react to certain circumstances. One such circumtsance was a completely irrational, yet intensely focused onslaught from an established player. This was a very noticeable chink in the mafia community's collective armor, and while you had your Internet Strangers and your Baby Jesuses (the paragons of this style of play), people who effectively played without explanation were very few and far between. Thus, very few players put the necessary time, thought, and effort into ensuring that they new how to interact with these playstyles. Over time, parts of the community evolve, and playing such playstyles shifts and changes just as the overall game meta does. Not only do they not know how to react, and not only do they give more information about themselves, but their weaknesses are actually exploitable, allowing the attacker as an individual to crack other players' shells and expose their soft, fleshy interiors, thus opening the game up for everybody.

Funny how you post that and clearly don't believe in it.

As for the 'WHATS A JESTER?' question...sure, I'll humor you...

When I first found this site, I read large chunks of it even before making an account. I read the wiki, I read games, I read mafia discussion. I knew what 90% of the roles (including uncommon ones, not including the scumchat ones) that existed, and knew how they all functioned.

My first game on the site people refused to believe that I was not an alt because of how I carried about myself. ICs in my newb game though that I was the one that was inexperience challenged. This applied to the more social parts of the site, consider the background that I knew about the players themselves.

And thats how something as simple as 'WHATS A JESTER?' is no more different than you asking this to me:
'WHATS A MAFIA GOON? HOW DID YOU KNOW HOW THEY WIN?'
Not everyone is as oblivious as you, or as least, tries to appear to be.

In light of waiting for Budja's replacement, I'll go ahead and vote the other main contender for numba one scum.

Unvote
Vote:ZazieR

Lets see where this takes us.

Reasons?

'UNEXPLAINED VOTES ARE THE BEST THINGS EVER!' as your quote goes.

But the reasons I'm voting you include the fact that you are a chronic lurker, feign ignorance on the simplest of things, and actually post very little in terms of your own opinions.

You mask your non-contributions with spam and questions.
80% of the things you say are questions.
People don't learn YOUR stances when all you do is question others.
Its good to hide behind that as opposed to posting content.
You sit back and relax because you focus on making others post content themselves while not doing the same.

A good gameplay experiment would be to compile all of your posts together in one post, and leave out anything that is either asking a question, or directly quoting others, and to see how long (or short) that would be. Not saying anyone should actually DO that though.

Also, I'm not liking all this favoritism of me.
I'm not used to playing in game where every player isn't attacking me at some point.
People should start making cases on me.
I find it easier to read those that are attacking me.

If so, then why didn't you mention this during D1 where many also saw you as town?

D1 is a different kind of monster.

Attempt?

Does that mean it isn't working??

I'm very wary of a player, who, right after I make a point that I get better reads from people that actively attack me, you go and make a deliberate direct attempt to do the exact opposite.
Sarcasm or not, you haven't made a single comment about me that hasn't been either directly or indirectly positive.
Quite scummy for being so certain of my alignment.

Pom is just as bad as well, except she hasn't been around to post as much in general, but I've got my eye on her as well.

Don't understand this post. Can you elaborate?

Up to that point, and somewhat part that, she has buddied me all game. Even after pointing out that she has buddied me all game. I was noting that as things I said I do. I attack everyone, and get conclusions based on such. Just like I encourage people to attack me.




I'm happy with my vote placement.

[elvis_knits]

Noticed this gem amidst the flurry of crap:

Pome, good job! I really like that list.

I'm sure I should care about reasons, like nacho just said, but I'm really just excited because it seems very reasonable.

unvote Pome, vote budja

EK

, next time, make it a better reason if you need a reason to unvote your scumbuddy.
You asked for scumhunting! Scumhunting involves reasons. If you disagree, why?

Also, why did you vote Budja? And state your reasons. If you want to be lazy scum again, link to a post if you have already stated these reasons.

Are you calling me scum?

I asked for a scumlist actually, and that's what she gave me. Yes reasons are helpful and I do want them, but her list really jived with my thinking. It made me think she was townier.

As to my buja vote... READ THE THREAD.

Budja
*Guy is on every bandwagon, and in a scummy way, like he's taking the easy way out and voting easy targets. Page 1 greendude racism wagon. Chamber hatewagon. SoG jesterwagon. He gets on these easy wagons without even doing any hard work or attacking.
*Also he said "null" on Pome's horrible waffle scumlist post.

I have also given reasons why I don't like yankee:

I am very happy voting yankee/budja because he replaces in and doesn't read the thread but puts his vote on shanba. Going for the highest vote-getter without actually reading the thread is VERY scummy. And now he's challenging kirby over his sureness of their votes on shanba? In case yankee forgot -- he's voting shanba too. So why is he attacking people for voting the same person he's voting?? Because he doesn't actually think shanba is scum? Because he KNOWS shanba is not scum? Because he wants to make sure other people on the bandwagon look bad?

Also, please note the mention of a cop and role fishing in yankees post

.

[Nachomamma8]

Yet if he had just bullshitted 5 posts off in a hurry, would you have lifted your vote since he had fulfilled your condition? If not, why did you lift your vote when he hadn't given enough content by your own admission?

He did, and I did. He fulfilled the condition I set before him, so I removed my vote. I was planning on pressing the matter, but it slipped my mind and he was replaced by someone who gave us adequate content.

[Nachomamma8]

POP QUIZ: When does the deadline end?

Answer: In two days. Closest person to lynch is Shanba at 4 votes, then Yankee at 2. Take's 6 to kill...

Unvote, Vote: ChiboSempai

I want him to die because he's too confident to be scum.

I wouldn't mind Pome dying because EK's reasons are sound.

I wouldn''t mind Shanba dying because that's the only lynch I could honestly see us putting into action today.

[SocioPath]

POP QUIZ: When does the deadline end?

Answer: In two days. Closest person to lynch is Shanba at 4 votes, then Yankee at 2. Take's 6 to kill...

I don't see major changes happening in the next 2 days, and I still think Shanba is scum.

Unvote
Vote: Shanba

[Pomegranate]

I think Shanba's our best bet as scum.

[ChiboSempai]

I want him to die because he's too confident to be scum.

Fix your wording there, as you pretty much said you don't think I'm scum, and you voted me lol. You say that I'm acting so confident that I'm not scum.

[ZazieR]

Zazie -- do you think she has played differently this game from twilight?

No, but the tone is very different. I got at least the impression she was trying to scumhunt at Twilight.
Here, she sounds fake.

[ZazieR]

At least Shanba sees my point against Nacho.
Also, according to my dictionary:
Sitting - zittingsperiode, vaste plaats in de kerk, broedsel.

Bonus question for our quiz:
Which of these three fits Pome's given definition?
I vote D: None of them

[ZazieR]

Maybe all this is just some really really aggressive bussing.

Any reason for thinking this?

Chibo's overconfidence and Shanbo's scuminess.

If correct, everybody has posted after the lynch. So I'm curious:
How come nobody asked what a jester is and how it already won?

This question should be answered in this queue:
First - Chibo and Nacho
Second - GD and Kirby
Third - Pome, Socio and Budja.

Doesn't matter when you answer, as long as the those mentioned before your group answered before your group.

I refuse to answer that question based on that it is dumb.

When this game, and a different one of ours, have been completed, we'll talk about stubbornness.
You may think it's dumb, it might give us information. So please answer.

See, the thing is, scum get very uneasy when you keep things from them. So stubbornness can be very protown. Especially when scum keep asking you one particular question over and over again that is irrelevant to anything other than their own personal motivations. Its foolish to try to ignore the information gained from responses to stubbornness.

But wait...why I'm I explaining this to YOU of all people? You are the one that posted this to try and save your own ass from who you replaced:

Regarding unexplained votes:

Did you know that unexplained votes are the best things ever?
A few underlying principles:
1) Players -- especially when scum -- like to be comfortable. Bringing pressure that is difficult to respond to pulls them out of their comfort zones, making them react in a way they normally wouldn't react. This makes it significantly more likely that they will say or do something particularly telling of their alignments.
2) In the long-term, players often reveal the most about themselves when acting on limited information. While this maxim generally applies to the notion that D1 and D2 are the most revealing parts of a mafia game, it also applies when dealing with "unexplained votes."
2a) Let's look at the general case of an unexplained vote from a player of unknown alignment. The motivation for a protown player is to discern the intent of the voter, generally in order to obtain their alignment. The motivation of an anti-town player is to discern the intent of the voter (which sometimes involves seeking alignment) and to best utilize the situation to their advantage. There is an important, if subtle, difference. By cultivating our exploration of these differences, we can find new tools to seek and destroy the scumbaggoes amongst us.
2b) Now consider the case where I am a confirmed protown player making an unexplainded vote. In this case, my motivation is very clear. In some way, I am seeking to find scum. Here, I'm actually going to dip into one of my trade secrets and note that protown players tend to have a broader picture of our voter's intent, whereas scums tend to focus more on themselves (or, sometimes, their allies). If the person I'm voting is more concerened with how everyone else reacts than with deflecting my attack, they are usually more likely to be protown. If they immediately seek to bury someone else in accusations, wildly reject my vote/claims outright, or blame-shift, they're more likely to be scum.
3) Taking an alternate approach to scumhunting allows one to take advantage of "weak points" in other players' gameplay. Most mafia is played in the public arena. Players openly debate and discuss who is scum and why. Thus, most people tend to focus most of their attention on growing and evolving as players in this realm of open banter. A couple years ago, I learned that the vast majority of players didn't know how to react to certain circumstances. One such circumtsance was a completely irrational, yet intensely focused onslaught from an established player. This was a very noticeable chink in the mafia community's collective armor, and while you had your Internet Strangers and your Baby Jesuses (the paragons of this style of play), people who effectively played without explanation were very few and far between. Thus, very few players put the necessary time, thought, and effort into ensuring that they new how to interact with these playstyles. Over time, parts of the community evolve, and playing such playstyles shifts and changes just as the overall game meta does. Not only do they not know how to react, and not only do they give more information about themselves, but their weaknesses are actually exploitable, allowing the attacker as an individual to crack other players' shells and expose their soft, fleshy interiors, thus opening the game up for everybody.

Funny how you post that and clearly don't believe in it.

As for the 'WHATS A JESTER?' question...sure, I'll humor you...

When I first found this site, I read large chunks of it even before making an account. I read the wiki, I read games, I read mafia discussion. I knew what 90% of the roles (including uncommon ones, not including the scumchat ones) that existed, and knew how they all functioned.

My first game on the site people refused to believe that I was not an alt because of how I carried about myself. ICs in my newb game though that I was the one that was inexperience challenged. This applied to the more social parts of the site, consider the background that I knew about the players themselves.

And thats how something as simple as 'WHATS A JESTER?' is no more different than you asking this to me:
'WHATS A MAFIA GOON? HOW DID YOU KNOW HOW THEY WIN?'
Not everyone is as oblivious as you, or as least, tries to appear to be.

In light of waiting for Budja's replacement, I'll go ahead and vote the other main contender for numba one scum.

Unvote
Vote:ZazieR

Lets see where this takes us.

Reasons?

'UNEXPLAINED VOTES ARE THE BEST THINGS EVER!' as your quote goes.

But the reasons I'm voting you include the fact that you are a chronic lurker, feign ignorance on the simplest of things, and actually post very little in terms of your own opinions.

You mask your non-contributions with spam and questions.
80% of the things you say are questions.
People don't learn YOUR stances when all you do is question others.
Its good to hide behind that as opposed to posting content.
You sit back and relax because you focus on making others post content themselves while not doing the same.

A good gameplay experiment would be to compile all of your posts together in one post, and leave out anything that is either asking a question, or directly quoting others, and to see how long (or short) that would be. Not saying anyone should actually DO that though.

Also, I'm not liking all this favoritism of me.
I'm not used to playing in game where every player isn't attacking me at some point.
People should start making cases on me.
I find it easier to read those that are attacking me.

If so, then why didn't you mention this during D1 where many also saw you as town?

D1 is a different kind of monster.

Attempt?

Does that mean it isn't working??

I'm very wary of a player, who, right after I make a point that I get better reads from people that actively attack me, you go and make a deliberate direct attempt to do the exact opposite.
Sarcasm or not, you haven't made a single comment about me that hasn't been either directly or indirectly positive.
Quite scummy for being so certain of my alignment.

Pom is just as bad as well, except she hasn't been around to post as much in general, but I've got my eye on her as well.

Don't understand this post. Can you elaborate?

Up to that point, and somewhat part that, she has buddied me all game. Even after pointing out that she has buddied me all game. I was noting that as things I said I do. I attack everyone, and get conclusions based on such. Just like I encourage people to attack me.




I'm happy with my vote placement.

It's actually interesting that you agree with the quote from Glork, yet you did vote Chamber.
Anyway, no, stubbornness isn't always pro-town. You have learned why already and as said, we'll discuss that later. Choosing to not answer a question isn't pro-town.
As for your 'funny' thing you pointed out, it's called playing style. I choose to post reasons. Doesn't mean that I disagree with not posting reasons.
Invalid comparison noted regarding the Jester question.
And then come the reasons for him voting me. Which is now just based upon policy. Which is again interesting when these reasons have been present for a long time already, yet you never pointed them out. Also, you stated that you wanted to see my defence against the accusations against me. You're not gonna comment on that?
I do post content. My questions show where my suspicions lie and I explain the suspicions behind them as well. I also comment on the responses given to them if needed. And I'm pretty sure I've stated many times who I think is scum and why.

[ZazieR]

Noticed this gem amidst the flurry of crap:

Pome, good job! I really like that list.

I'm sure I should care about reasons, like nacho just said, but I'm really just excited because it seems very reasonable.

unvote Pome, vote budja

EK

, next time, make it a better reason if you need a reason to unvote your scumbuddy.
You asked for scumhunting! Scumhunting involves reasons. If you disagree, why?

Also, why did you vote Budja? And state your reasons. If you want to be lazy scum again, link to a post if you have already stated these reasons.

Are you calling me scum?

I asked for a scumlist actually, and that's what she gave me. Yes reasons are helpful and I do want them, but her list really jived with my thinking. It made me think she was townier.

As to my buja vote... READ THE THREAD.

Budja
*Guy is on every bandwagon, and in a scummy way, like he's taking the easy way out and voting easy targets. Page 1 greendude racism wagon. Chamber hatewagon. SoG jesterwagon. He gets on these easy wagons without even doing any hard work or attacking.
*Also he said "null" on Pome's horrible waffle scumlist post.

Yes, I'm calling you scum.
You should have known that already. Also, will you now comment on all my stuff aimed at you? Or will you keep being lazy scum?
As for you Pome vote:

If Pome can do some

scum hunting

I'd like to move my vote to Budja.

I asked for Budja. Especially as he commented on it and you''ve ignored his explanation fully.
Also, disagreement isn't a scumtell.

[ZazieR]

POP QUIZ: When does the deadline end?

Answer: In two days. Closest person to lynch is Shanba at 4 votes, then Yankee at 2. Take's 6 to kill...

Unvote, Vote: ChiboSempai

I want him to die because he's too confident to be scum.

I wouldn't mind Pome dying because EK's reasons are sound.

I wouldn''t mind Shanba dying because that's the only lynch I could honestly see us putting into action today.

Regarding Pome, EK stated she thinks Pome is acting townier. So what's up with what you said?

Also, with this said, I prefer lynching Pome. I'll only switch at deadline if needed.

[Yankee]

Is it not possible to combine all your thoughts into one post please? So annoying having like 4-10 posts in a row everytime you post. Also, I dont believe Shanba is Scum, i think people are just anxious to get to day 2 and are starting to vote the person with most votes.

[elvis_knits]

I am now willing to lynch zazie.

[Battousai]

Vote Count

Shanba (4) – ChiboSempai, Kirbyoshi, Pomegranate, SocioPath
Yankee (2) – elvis_knits, Shanba
Nachomamma8 (1) – Yankee
ChiboSempai (1) – Nachomamma8
Pomegranate (1) - ZazieR

Not Voting (1): GreenDude


It takes 6 to lynch!

Deadline is Oct 20th at 12:00pm (GMT -5 hrs)

My rule is that you may not talk about

this

game outside of thread unless your role pm states otherwise.

[Nachomamma8]

POP QUIZ: When does the deadline end?

Answer: In two days. Closest person to lynch is Shanba at 4 votes, then Yankee at 2. Take's 6 to kill...

Unvote, Vote: ChiboSempai

I want him to die because he's too confident to be scum.

I wouldn't mind Pome dying because EK's reasons are sound.

I wouldn''t mind Shanba dying because that's the only lynch I could honestly see us putting into action today.

Regarding Pome, EK stated she thinks Pome is acting townier. So what's up with what you said?

Also, with this said, I prefer lynching Pome. I'll only switch at deadline if needed.

Pome hasn't been acting townier, despite what EK said. The points EK brought up against Pome and the behaviors she described haven't ceased to happen.

[Shanba]

Is it not possible to combine all your thoughts into one post please? So annoying having like 4-10 posts in a row everytime you post. Also, I dont believe Shanba is Scum, i think people are just anxious to get to day 2 and are starting to vote the person with most votes.

No, they're doing the townie thing which is to ensure we have a lynch before deadline. They're also, incidentally, doing the scummy thing which is to ensure we have a lynch before deadline.

This is a very good reason for town to get sorted pre-deadline

[Yankee]

Well before you are lynched, what are your final thoughts as to who you believe is scum and why. So we have it for future reference. Just re asking incase you have changed your mind at all.

[ZazieR]

Is it not possible to combine all your thoughts into one post please? So annoying having like 4-10 posts in a row everytime you post. Also, I dont believe Shanba is Scum, i think people are just anxious to get to day 2 and are starting to vote the person with most votes.

It's possible. However, it's my playstyle for a reason.

[ZazieR]

I am now willing to lynch zazie.

I take this as you're going to continue to be lazy scum.
Reasons behind this statement?

[elvis_knits]

I am now willing to lynch zazie.

I take this as you're going to continue to be lazy scum.
Reasons behind this statement?

Reasons are you are 90% noise and 9% wrong. That leaves 1% that might possibly be reasoning I could agree with. 90% noise is scummy because it gives the effect of scum hunting without actually helping. And the 9% of stuff that I think is wrong seems like you are using scummy and/or poor reasoning. Overall, I see no townie content from you.

I was going to make a post before outlining all the reasons your posting about me is BS, but got frustrated with you. My main bones with you are:

1)You have no other reason for calling me scum other than some supposed relationship to Pome. This is really bad because:
a)I was the only person really pressuring Pome for most of the day until you started voting her. So I don't even see how I could be her buddy.
b)We don't even know if Pome is scum so saying I'm her buddy is so much WIFOM. I've already made a post on this topic, but I don't think you read it. Here it is:

I also think that discussing scum buddies TOO much is a scum tactic. Noticing relationships between players is a good thing, but noticing a connection between two players should not be the basis for thinking they're both scum. It is simply not enough and too open to manipulation. Possible scum connections should only be supporting evidence, until such time as somebody flips scum. That is the only time that we should get too far into scum buddy talk, when we have something concrete. Otherwise it is a fallacy.

2)I don't like you calling me lazy when I'm one of the more active people in this game and you seem to go for long periods of time without posting and then flood the game with a lot of crap like asking Pome what "sitting" means. If anyone is lazy, it is you. Anyone can quote a bunch of posts and ask for more explanation.

3)After you drew my attention to the twilight game I think Pome is town here since she was town there. You disagree, saying you think her scumhunting here is fake. Why do you think that? Give examples. I find it so hypocritical and maddening that you go through the thread and spam it full of requests for more info from people when the info is already in thread, yet when you're giving your opinion you don't give YOUR reasons. SO GODDAMN ANNOYING.

[Nachomamma8]

Can you link me to that twilight game, please?

[Shanba]

Here are my reads coded by strength and by certainty (the difference being that certainty takes into account the paranoia side of things:

Yankee: Scum, fairly certain.
GreenDude: LurkerScum, fairly certain.
Zazie: Scum, uncertain.
Pome: SCum, uncertain.

Kirby: More or less no read.
Nacho: More or less no read. Still don't like the thing I keep bringing up. Schizophrenic about it really. Even if it is a tell though, it's weak.

Elvis:Town, fairly certain
Chibo: Town, uncertain.
Sociopath: Town, fairly to slightly certain.

There've now been multiple bandwagons in this game, and I think players would be well rewarded to check them out properly.