Mini 847 Murder in Zachtown (Game over!)

[Sotty7]

PS. I dont have penis envy.
I also dont want anal.

This warranted a need for me to publicly announce.

....

Why the Nikanor vote?

[Maemuki]

The awesome powers of unexplained gut, Sotty.
I think. >.<

[Zachrulez]

8th vote count of day 2:

DTMaster - 3 (Yellowbunny, DTMaster, Nikanor)
hitogoroshi - 2 (Vi, JasonT1981)
JasonT1981 - 2 (Battle Mage, hitogoroshi)
Haylen - 1 (Sotty7)
Nikanor - 1 (Haylen)

Not voting (Maemuki, KittyMo)

With 11 alive it's 6 to lynch.

If I made any mistakes, let me know asap.

[Battle Mage]

Jason: Do you think Hito is scum with BM?

I believe they are our best chance at hitting scum right now yes.

Cop Out.

PS: This is not a breadcrumb.
I also don't have penis envy. >.>

BM

[jasonT1981]

Jason: Do you think Hito is scum with BM?

I believe they are our best chance at hitting scum right now yes.

Cop Out.

PS: This is not a breadcrumb.
I also don't have penis envy. >.>

BM

Cop out? how... I am asked do I think you both are scum...

I say yes, you are the best chance of hitting scum....

[Zachrulez]

Deadline is approximately one week away.

I will do activity checks tomorrow.

[DTMaster]

K

Insert wall that DTM finally catches up on

@Vi
801:

"hands in resume with it attached my following qualifications as a good townie"

1. I didn't stress for a PR bandwagon when they can be NK confirmed.
2. Throughout the day I questioned most people. I went from BM, to YB, to Neto, to Jason to Haylen from what I can remember.
3. I'm not OMGUSing attacking.
4. I'm not emotional in my game play.
5.. Your case involves my self vote and not my entire actions throughout days 1-2. You failed to address me as a whole which makes everything incomplete.

841:
Because I hate spell check? :S

Anyways the answer to this post lies in WIFOM. The summary is:

Jason uses this as a weak argument. To me scum-Neto outing the doc is poor day 1 play for scum unless they can clear up the following issues:

a. They can ensure they kill the investigation roles if there are any. Or know that said investigation roles are useless (insane/naive/etc..)

b. If Neto didn't die by day 2, extreme scum hunting will ensue. If he gets CCed before/after scum would lose 1 of their members on day 1 or day 2.

Therefore: scum outing doc on day 1 argument for a scum neto argument = suboptimal play. This was confirmed when Neto flipped town doctor and Jason's argument was wrong.


@Kitty
Eww 817: Get better.

Issue though: Nikanor likes playing with Mastin, therefore he is a text wall masochist. I smell favoritism from Kitty for a Kitty/Nik scum team or Kitty buddying. (is serious here)

@Mae
820: Actually light hearted humour is and effective scum tool but we can't prove it. Since Mafia scum is a psychological game, humour can be used to make you more likable and squeze your way into the game, lulling the town into your favour. Or it could just be, you know, humour.

I was attacking you for the lack of content, rather then the humour in itself since that can't be proved. That's the critical point, and you deflected from it.

823: I'm confused. I'm not pushing for your lynch since you can be confirmed later. I'm just scum hunting since aspects of your post reads as suspicious.

Over reaction much since I questioned your posts? You didn't attack Vi for the comment:

Do you find anyone suspicious, or are you resting on your Tracker claim to get through the Day?

Which to me is ringing true. More scumhunting, less defensiveness. You are claimed PR, if you are town I don't understand why you aren't scum hunting.
@Sotty
822:Can you meta me a few town-jason games? Personnaly I'll let it slide if this is an issue of gut/meta fuzziness but the issues about his doc vote still remains.

I experienced this with tubby216 before. Also in the Internal Mafia game I felt the same way about the first townie lynch.

823: Repeat rehash to look pro-town = scummy to me. Read Day/Night Mafia where my partner did the same thing. Bekk.

This post reads as blending in, going for the top wagons and trying to appear townie with nothing new.

FoS: Sotty

Try doing some ISO reads first, then address the cases.

@Nik
834: I don't get why you want my opinion in the cross over vote :S. Are you trying to get me to comment on scum links between the two, or see if they are distance voting.

But here is my answer:

Jason's vote on hito reads as weak OMGUS. Hito's vote reads as weak reasoning supported by "I was trying to see your reaction: defence. The latter is better supported. The former is lacking.

I'm biased in this since I see scum-Jason with his actions at the end of day 1.

Does it answer everything?

@Jason
842: At the time I didn't think I got a chance to read through your full argument. But a good summary helps.

I kinda see your angle but an issue comes when:

Hito is using: "I emulated BM using a reaction attack" on you. You fueled it allowing Hito to use this against you. >>;; Your thoughts on his argument about the above scenario Hito says he used on you.

@Haylen
First thought: Penises are useful though.
Second thought: Anal sounds dirty though.

1/2 statements make sense.

@BM
Whose at the top of your scum hitting list?

@Vi/Sotty/BM
Recall the meta discussion me and Haylen had. I conceded since she hasn't posted in other games through post searching when she could have at least contributed something here.

Do you agree/disagree with my conclusions that Haylen is telling the truth?

[Vi]

@DTMaster: Understand that your first 17 posts read as useless spam to me. In addition, your HoSing of y-bunny and Netopalis are scummy on principle in my Inevitably Correct Mantras of Scumhunting.
I also really don't like how you threw in that you aren't OMGUSing people or playing emotionally, as these are more likely playstyle issues than alignment-related. (In addition, one could argue that your D2 self-vote was entirely emotional.) And frankly, your self-vote was a bad idea D1 and an even worse idea today considering your lynch wouldn't have been that good for information D1 and actually inhibits your hunting D2.
In other words, I

have

considered your play and I don't find it particularly convincing. I used the self-vote as a way of checking again what your motives were.

In spite of what I just said, there is one solid Town-tell in your posts - your catch on Netopalis in MD. So I'm not entirely ready to toss you into a noose.

Question. Why aren't you voting yellowbunny?
Could you concisely outline your case on y-bunny?

Also,

please

cut down on the text walls. Say what you need to say and be done with it.

@Vi/Sotty/BM
Recall the meta discussion me and Haylen had. I conceded since she hasn't posted in other games through post searching when she could have at least contributed something here.

Do you agree/disagree with my conclusions that Haylen is telling the truth?

I don't actually see where your conclusions are, but anyway.
This is actually something I've been reading into on my own, considering I've been sitting on some sensitive information.
I'm pretty sure Haylen's telling the truth about being sick, unless she wants to be the subject of the next big forum drama.
Unfortunately, because of that the meta read I have on her kind of has to be thrown out the window, as posting sparsely seems to be her new fashion.

[Zachrulez]

One day extension to the deadline due to downtime.

[jasonT1981]

But here is my answer:

Jason's vote on hito reads as weak OMGUS. Hito's vote reads as weak reasoning supported by "I was trying to see your reaction: defence. The latter is better supported. The former is lacking.

Wait what???

@Jason
842: At the time I didn't think I got a chance to read through your full argument. But a good summary helps.

My vote reads as nothing but OMGUS? when I had already outlined my full reasons in post 797.. and again in 842.. you say you have not read them yet claim my reason is OMGUS?

how does this work out.

I suggest you read both 797 and 842. How can you say it is only OMGUS when you have not even read my reasons? I'm stumped.

you want my reasons I suggest you go read those two posts again.

[Haylen]

Hello, I'm feeling better now.

I'm pretty sure Haylen's telling the truth about being sick, unless she wants to be the subject of the next big forum drama.

That's already happened...

My lack of posting isnt a new fashion, I just have a whole Ill, busy, dead thing going on at the moment.

Speaking of busy, I'm trying to start a thread for the game I'm about to mod. And will be back in the game after I've done that. Feeling a lot better now, despite nearly being sent home from work tomorrow.

PS. ZACH. HAHA!!! Lol, it had to be said. Im not gonne be forgetting my win for a while.

[Sotty7]

My meta on Jason isn't just me pissing in the wind. A little over a year ago on another site we both post on I introduced the forum to mafia. Since then we have played several games and while the players are getting better the overall skill level is low. EmtionalJason = TownJason isn't just a fad, it is a trend I have witnessed. Here:

Town

MWA: Star wars
This was an early game on the site and I (Kacy Knight) pretty much lost it on Jason (Jason Talbot) because he tried to random/joke vote me on day two. It resulted in a huge fight between us that in the end caused the game to get restarted. We were both townies.

MWA: Marvel/DC 2
In this game I was the jester and Talbot was a survivor. I start a some what early wagon on Jason and he gets very OMGUSy on me. Others start to wagon and he completely freaks out pretty much accusing everyone at some point. He only calms down after I derail the wagon on him.

MWA: Alien v Predator
Here I started an early day wagon on Jason with the hope to see if he flipped out and give away his town tells to me. As expected he started to get overly emotional and at the top of page 4 I unvoted. However we ended up going at off board and both were replaced because of this. We were both townies.

Scum

MWA: Werewolf
An example albeit a very short one, of JasonScum blending in. Cool, calm, in control.

MWA: Mafia special
Jason is scum, I nail him hard and he doesn't overreact, even though there is much ownage.

MWA: Cops v mafia 2
Jason is scum again and I catch him out. We go back and forth but no where does he get overly emotional.

MWA: Invasion
More scum Jason and we go at it, things getting heated. However he never loses it as far as I am concerned.

MWA games.

I am not quite as versed in Jason's MS games for obvious reasons. But I do know about two of them that seem to fit this pattern.

Newbie 804
TownJason gets into a big fight with townShikahake7.

Internal Struggle mafia
Even though the heat is on for most of this game, scumJason ever completely loses his cool.

So yes I have a truck load of meta on Jason that suggests to me he is a townie with how he has reacted to BM and to hito. While his over reactiveness has dulled over time it is still there. The doc vote does still bother me, but right now I think the scum are trying to push Jason to the noose simply because of my experience in playing with Jason.

This post took me way too long to make. I will be back later to look at the rest of the posts. I need some lunch.

Jason, I can't tell you how many times I had to delete Talbot in this post...

[jasonT1981]

LOL don't worry Fiona, its an old habit of yours... Even Zach keeps calling me Talbot here on MS.

I don't think anyone who has played me on MWA will ever be able to call me Jason on a regular basis here.

As for keeping my vote on the UC doc... well, Scum when claiming usually claim cop or doc. I felt it was too convenient and could be a ploy to out a real doc. I admit I was wrong, but it was a gut feeling that it was a scum ploy to out the real doc giving them more info in the night.

Hence I kept my vote on.

[hitogoroshi]

As I've said before, the weakest part of my case is the warrant - that extreme paranoia is a scum tell. I'll have to look at the presented cases in more detail, but if it's true that paranoia and attacking your attacker is a Jason-towntell that basicially kills my entire case and I would be perfectly happy unvoting. (Though if that's true, Jason, I'd recommend trying to change that fact about yourself. Attacking your attacker instead of pro-actively hunting is anti-town behavior, regardless of your alignment.)

[Nikanor]

Issue though: Nikanor likes playing with Mastin, therefore he is a text wall masochist. I smell favoritism from Kitty for a Kitty/Nik scum team or Kitty buddying. (is serious here)

I like Mastin's posts because even though they are massive, they are not very dense because of the amount of one-liners, and because he USES QUOTES EFFECTIVELY, something other players in this game seem to have trouble doing.

The reason I asked you to comment on the crossvoting is for me to know and for you to find out.

[Maemuki]

...ok, Sotty. If you say so...I'm inclined to believe Jason is town. But Haylen? Well, gut is nice and helps to get reads. On early game. Not when it's day 2.

...Nikanor, I know you're there. Don't act like you can't see read me.
I asked for a suspicion list, now where is it? I know you're ignoring this, so post something. Please? What if I bake some cookies?

Edit because I use the preview button: Nikanor, did you even read what I asked of you?

[Nikanor]

Sorry Maemuki, I forgot, haha.

Maemuki would like for you to say who you suspect. Why? Because I didn't see them. >.<

Basically, my top two suspects are DTM and hito. I've said my reason(s?) for suspecting DTM. I'm suspicious of hito for his dubious jason vote.
If I were to provide a third, it would probably be yellowbunny, but it's not easy to get a read from her when she follows DTM's posting style (i.e. I ignore most of it).
My suspicion of jason is somewhat assuaged (lessened) by Sotty's meta evidence, but I'm sticking to the principle that people can change.
Vi's helpful. BM is disappeared, but I had a townread from him. Sotty is helpful. Maemuki will probably be dead tonight, but if not, I'll be pretty suspicious of her.

[Maemuki]

Sorry Maemuki, I forgot, haha.

Even though I said that twice? *le sigh* I'm not really one to talk, but still...

If I were to provide a third, it would probably be yellowbunny, but it's not easy to get a read from her when she follows DTM's posting style (i.e. I ignore most of it).

Why do you ignore them?

Maemuki will probably be dead tonight, but if not, I'll be pretty suspicious of her.

I now know who

won't

be nightkilled tonight. Gee I

do

wonder why.

Aside from that, if Sotty didn't have meta evidence, would Jason be your third option for scum?

[Nikanor]

Why do you ignore them?

Because I don't like looking back and finding the posts to which they are referring when DTM and yellowbunny post. Take DTM's 856, for example.

@Kitty
Eww 817: Get better.

Issue though: Nikanor likes playing with Mastin, therefore he is a text wall masochist. I smell favoritism from Kitty for a Kitty/Nik scum team or Kitty buddying. (is serious here)

I had to look back and find post 817 to see what DTM was talking about. When he does that ten times in one post, I start to feel a tinge of apathy creeping up my spine. Sure, it's easier for DTM to post like that, but it makes it a hell of a lot more difficult on other people.

Aside from that, if Sotty didn't have meta evidence, would Jason be your third option for scum?

[Nikanor]

Oops, my answer to your last sentence there is 'yes'.

[Sotty7]

(Though if that's true, Jason, I'd recommend trying to change that fact about yourself. Attacking your attacker instead of pro-actively hunting is anti-town behavior, regardless of your alignment.)

I agree.

I realize that my meta evidence on Jason isn't something that can clear him 100% and there is a (slight) chance that he is messing with my head. I just really think he is town.

...ok, Sotty. If you say so...I'm inclined to believe Jason is town

Just on my say so?

Why do you ignore them?

Because I don't like looking back and finding the posts to which they are referring when DTM and yellowbunny post. Take DTM's 856, for example.

@Kitty
Eww 817: Get better.

Issue though: Nikanor likes playing with Mastin, therefore he is a text wall masochist. I smell favoritism from Kitty for a Kitty/Nik scum team or Kitty buddying. (is serious here)

I had to look back and find post 817 to see what DTM was talking about. When he does that ten times in one post, I start to feel a tinge of apathy creeping up my spine. Sure, it's easier for DTM to post like that, but it makes it a hell of a lot more difficult on other people.

Glad I wasn't the only one that felt like this. It is a really annoying post style.

[yellowbunny]

DONE GRADING! Woo-hoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let's see...

And there's nobody else you're suspicious of...?

Well I'm suspicious of DTM for claiming VT and self-voting an hour before deadline and directly after BM said that self-voting is townie. The fact that his vote is still on himself isn't earning him any points, either.

I actually very much agree with this. It equates to not actively scum hunting almost. I don't understand it and I don't agree with his reasoning that he is the best lynch today if we can't decide. I think a BM, Yellow or even Jason lynch would gives us more info than a DTMaster lynch. His actions are bizarre.

I don't follow your reasoning here. Firstly, unless I'm misremembering/can't find where he wrote it, I don't think DT said he was the BEST lynch...he said he was a good lynch. And if DT's behavior is "suspicious" and "bizzare", how is his lynch not better than, say, a Jason lynch (whom you say you have meta to support him being town)?

Speaking of that meta...what you posted was really informative. I have been getting gut town-feelings from Jason today, and this makes me feel more confident in that. Also, upon rereading, I am inclined to agree with Jason's assertion that Hito's Jason vote was opportunistic.

Issue though: Nikanor likes playing with Mastin, therefore he is a text wall masochist. I smell favoritism from Kitty for a Kitty/Nik scum team or Kitty buddying. (is serious here)

Not following you here. Clarify please?

Because I don't like looking back and finding the posts to which they are referring when DTM and yellowbunny post. Take DTM's 856, for example.

Damnit, Nikanor! So you are saying I could have commited the most henious grammatical crimes in those posts, and you never would have noticed! /shakes fist

But seriously, if you want me to stop doing something (like DT style posting), just ask me directly. Hinting at it just gives me flashbacks to passive-agressive boyfriends of the past. And you seem too nice to be lumped in w/those schmucks.

[hitogoroshi]

I'd like to clarify something about my vote. It was 'opportunistic' in that I seized the opportunity of Jason responding to BM's pressure to vote, and that this would provide a clear razor of whether or not he was attacking his attacker or if it was a 'coincidence' that he suspected BM, as it were. But you seem to be using the word to indicate that 'opportunistic' is someone synonymous with 'scummy' and frankly I don't see how. I've said before that I took great pains to ensure that was not a bandwagon-encouraging vote. So how exactly was it scummy? I did use the

opportunity

, so it is opportunistic in that sense, but that definition is a positive modifier; e.g, that I did my vote at the correct opportunity to elicit a meaningful response.

[jasonT1981]

Hito... you said only scum use reasons to justify their vote... but then went on a tirade trying to justify your vote in your very next post.. could you explain that please, does that not, by your own definition make you scum?

[hitogoroshi]

Hito... you said only scum use reasons to justify their vote... but then went on a tirade trying to justify your vote in your very next post.. could you explain that please, does that not, by your own definition make you scum?

Firstly, I did not say "only scum use reasons to justifiy their vote", I said, "scum always (or at least, almost always) justify their votes because they primarily vote to start bandwagons." "If scum = justify votes"

does not

mean "if and only if scum = justify votes."

And secondly, I already did explain that a few pages back:

You're misinterpreting - I was going to modify that with "deliberately", but with your medication I'll give the benefit of the doubt - the meaning of justify. As I said extremely clearly in the mentioned post, scum like to justify their votes with reasons for the purpose of forming a bandwagon. I mentioned the fact that you're at L-4 because it, in conjunction with my lack of a call to arms, showed explicitly that my vote was not placed on you to form a bandwagon. Complete opposite concepts, and to link them by poorly defining the word "justify" is kind of asinine.

And could you please tell me why a vote without rationale is "more scummier"? I have posted my reasons why I believe it is a null tell.