Mini 843- The Fast and the Furious Mafia! (Over-Mod Error)

[MordyS]

EBWOP: Afraid of SpyreX being killed and then him dying -- by lynch. I'll try to find the exact post where that argument was made.

[MordyS]

Here was the quote (apologies for the double-posting), from post 589:

That said, I'm not buying SK's claim. It's not really the BG + Doc thing: I could actually see a setup like that, especially given it's a theme game. However, the last couple of posts make it pretty obvious he's coming up with this role as he posts. He's a bodyguard... who protected SpyreX last night because he didn't want to get lynched (but didn't mind getting killed)... who's really an undercover cop but can't investigate (or can he?)... who's apparently not answering questions anymore. Add my previous unanswered questions about his DJ case and the reasons SpyreX posted, and I've got enough to overcome the indigestion I'm going to feel from joining Mordy and DJ.

Considering that JereIC apparently felt the same way I did, that means way back when this so-called distancing started, both me and JereIC weren't yet on the wagon, or ready to be on the wagon. He could have averted being lynched when he started attacking DJ. I'm saying this was absolutely not distancing.

Also, KoC, could you explain this comment left by your predecessor, Tjoe, in post 472:

considering that I have 11 item (both town and scum will receive)...I think you know the answer

What does he mean that both town and scum will receive? Any idea? (It's something that's been on my mind for awhile, but for obvious reasons, just bubbled up again during this last page or so.)

[SpyreX]

Ok, time for a different approach:

(as an aside, what is w/r/t)

We saw two kills day 1 and no kills day 2. Faraday and I have both claimed to have reason to believe the kills were on us and stopped (without giving reasons why).

One of those two kills is mafia.
The other kill is, probably barring madness, an SK or a Vig.

So, at this point the first question(s) are:

1.) Do you believe that I am town?
2.) Do you believe that Faraday is town?

If yes, lets move on:

IF you believe both, the second kill is(or better freaking be) not a Vig. So we are looking at an SK - Mafia setup. With the vanillaless this means we're looking at 8-3-1 more likely than not.

DJ makes very little sense as an SK. (If we want to go into reasons for this I can expand but I'm trying to keep it shorter).

So, really the question is: is DJ mafia?

Now, considering the interaction between DJ and SK I think this is a resounding no. However, lets assume one doesn't agree with that:

If I am town and DJ is scum, DJ can not win the game. Yes, I am guaranteeing that in a 3 person lylo I would drop the hammer on him so fast it'd make ones eyes bleed.

Hence, on top of my belief that DJ is town, his interactions have neutered himself if he was actually scum so I'm not worried.

---

That said, lets drop him from the equation:

Starbuck - Neighbor (Vanilla now)
Faraday - (Recieved Invention, KoC)
SpyreX - Awesome
JereIC - (Recieved Invention, KoC)
Knights of Cydonia - (Gave Inventions both nights)
Boxman - ?
MordyS - ?

So, lets SAY that DJ is scum (which makes this a tighter spread). In the above we're looking at an SK and a Mafiate.

KoC makes little sense as either (barring really weird setup mechanics like an SK-Inventor who kills and gives inventions).
Faraday stepped up and kept Tjoe off the block and although I'd love to see more out of him I'll swing town up on this one.
I'm, again, awesome.

So, I'm really looking at:
Starbuck
JereIC
Boxman
MordyS

Now things get a little stickier:

Looking at Starbucks ebb and flow of this game and the interactions with SK, yea, I'm down.

Mordy shifted a wagon off Box based on some early information to Starbuck. Now, the ONLY scenario that doesn't make sense to me in this would be Mordy-scum, Starbuck-scum. I could Mordy-scum shifting of Box-scum to a mislynch. I'd have a hard time buying Mordy-SK doing ANYTHING in this situation as its a gamble thats hard to make.

Boxman comes in after the wagon derails, makes a few noises and vanishes. Not a fan.

JereIC again, not contributing.

Of these four the one I would NOT lynch today is Mordy. JereIC gives me the itch (Hint, Vigs go here) but really it comes down to:

Starbuck
Boxman

I think Starbuck has a moderately higher chance of being scum. The neighbor claim and the track being what they are I could see an early push to track someone scummy (like SK) and the kill being there to stop that from happening. And, well, this whole debacle today.

Boxman still unravels a bit more of the setup if scum - it'd be hard pressed not to turbo lynch Mordy for it.

However, I'd put the chances at there being at least one scum in that final two being mega high. Hell, I could even put decent chances at them both being scum.

JereIC gives me the itch in that "I'm an SK on cruise control for cool" way.

[MordyS]

w/r/t = with regard to (It's a David Foster Wallace neologism, I believe).

[SpyreX]

I think Starbuck made a bad start, yes, and I agree she has been far too quiet, but I expect being posted to Italy would put a crimp in most people's posting routines on this site. There's stuff early on I'd wonder about, and would warrant a closer look if we reach LyLo, but I don't rank her anywhere near as scummy as don_johnson, who I believe is more than likely the best lynch for today.

Assuming both kills go through and a 8-3-1 setup if there are no crosskills tomorrow IS lylo.

I'm still a little stung at the snipe at me and I'm trying to not let that cloud things but I don't get being that forgiving on Starbuck (especially since by any reasonable measure Italy hasn't been a factor in overall-site contribution) AND that abrasive towards DJ.

But, I was thinking more specifics. If you think Starbuck is town then my back and forth must not be convincing and I'd love to know what in there isn't.

[SpyreX]

* and we don't lynch scum today of course.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I don't think Starbuck is town. Or, at least, I wouldn't be that comphrensive just yet - I'd put her early game as mild-scum, her more recent posting as mild-town, and thus I haven't really reached a solid conclusion. Your back-and-forth isn't unconvincing as such, I just think that you underestimate the willingness to uber-bus of a player like don_johnson who has admitted, in this game, no less, that he actively changes his playstyle to avoid building up a meta - which means he is fully aware of what meta he HAS built, and will actively play to confuse this - by making odd/unusual plays.
I agree with you on Boxman, and on JereIC to a certain amount - my invention was aimed at waking him up and bringing him into the game so I can make a judgement, more than anything - but I'd like to see don_johnson included in your calculation, because it feels like you're giving him a free pass simply because of SK's interactions.

What does he mean that both town and scum will receive? Any idea? (It's something that's been on my mind for awhile, but for obvious reasons, just bubbled up again during this last page or so.)

I'm going to get some mod clarification before I say anything about this, but I will answer your question as much as I can, when I know what I can say, Mordy.

[SpyreX]

The thing is that it wasn't an uber-bus as much as attaching himself to my hip.

I'm thinking SK went down in a blaze of glory and both of his "WIFOM" attempts were on town: Faraday and DJ.

I'm interested in the answer to that after your needing clarification with the mod because I thought the answer was straightforward?

[Knight of Cydonia]

It might be. I just need to clarify a specific part of my role, and whether or not I can reveal that clarification here.

[Boxman]

Yeah, I doubt that dj is scum after the whole SK thing. I just can't see a scum trying to bus another under almost no pressure.

As far as the others, I see Spyre, KoC, and Mordy as town currently. Jere is a little scummy for the lurking, but I can't really say anything about that right now. dj I currently see as town for the whole SK thing, and Starbuck I think is SK's scumbuddy.

Faraday I see as a neutral focus - I haven't seen much reason to think he is town or scum.

[Knight of Cydonia]

What does he mean that both town and scum will receive? Any idea? (It's something that's been on my mind for awhile, but for obvious reasons, just bubbled up again during this last page or so.)

Okay, I can indeed answer this: I only have 1 package for each player, but I have a package for each player. Therefore, if I were to deliver every package, each player would get one, so scum would get theirs (assuming we last 11 nights somehow.) I can only deliver a specific package to each player, and cannot give them any package but the one they were assigned at the start of the game. Of course, I don't HAVE to deliver each night, so I can just refuse packages to those I think are scum.

[afatchic]

A few comments... KOC, i didn't fix your post as i was having a bit of difficulty figuring out what tag needed fixing, so i think it is easy enough to follow along by just reading the post under it.

@DJ: There is no character named Vin; however, there is a character named Vince, who he was implying (Notice in the death scene...). If he was just making up a random name, then that was just a terrible decision on his part i guess. However, judging by his reaction tells me that he was in fact implying Vince and that he realized he screwed up as soon as he did it. That was what made my final decision on that matter.

And yes, i would have caught it regardless of DJ posting or not. I always go through all the posts and make a votecount, then go back and check for questions toward me, and then lastly go back and read what happened during hte part that i missed.

Also, you will be getting another votecount in about 4 hours when i get home. If you need an up to date votecount, the only difference between the one on the front page and this one should be KOC's vote on DJ.

[SpyreX]

... huh

WELP, that about settles it. KoC is confirmed town as far as I'm concerned.

Now Tjoe's empowerer business makes a lot more sense.

(Needless to say that wasn't what I was expecting)

[JereIC]

JereIC gives me the itch (Hint, Vigs go here)

***

JereIC gives me the itch in that "I'm an SK on cruise control for cool" way.

You know what, Mr. Awesome? You want me dead, you make a case and cast a vote. Just because you've got DJ doing everything you say doesn't mean you can expect a vig to do the same.

KoC: Faraday and I had the option to open the package you gave us, which seems like an odd mechanic unless we've got some reason to reject it. Is there any indication some of your inventions are harmful to the recipient?

Starbuck: Why do you like KoC's SpyreX : Townie play :: Zwet : consistency analogy? Do you have any posts by SpyreX that are not good townie play? I also can't help but notice you've dropped your case against DJ as soon as KoC started posting seriously.

[Knight of Cydonia]

JereIC - I'm just the messenger in that respect. I have no idea what I'm handing you.

[SpyreX]

You know what, Mr. Awesome? You want me dead, you make a case and cast a vote. Just because you've got DJ doing everything you say doesn't mean you can expect a vig to do the same.

Sure can. Sure do. If we pin down the not-scum kill and they've killed a funny kill then they'll dangle.

Yea, thats right. I direct power roles. What up now.

You'll get your case when its time for your case. Starbuck is for now.

[Starbuck]

Okay, semantics isn't necessarily the best word here - you're arguing points ENTIRELY unrelated to my accusations against you (such as Starbuck) with the clear intent of proving me wrong(which you haven't) on one irrelevant point, and using that one irrelevant point to somehow toss down my accusations against you, the majority of which have gone unanswered.

This is what they have been doing all game.

[Starbuck]

Starbuck: Why do you like KoC's SpyreX : Townie play :: Zwet : consistency analogy? Do you have any posts by SpyreX that are not good townie play? I also can't help but notice you've dropped your case against DJ as soon as KoC started posting seriously.

How did I drop my case? I'm still voting for DJ.

I like the analogy because I have suffered through many games with zwet, and I understand the analogy.

[don_johnson]

KoC and starbuck:

i really don't know what either of you are talking about. if there is an issue i haven't addressed(or more than one) please post it(them).

You know what, Mr. Awesome? You want me dead, you make a case and cast a vote. Just because you've got DJ doing everything you say doesn't mean you can expect a vig to do the same.

sucks for you if i'm a vig.

not sure what to make of mod's post, but i don't think it has a tremendous amount of bearing on this. which reminds me:

The last thing that Ani said was that he was a doctor, so I figured that since this whole game is PRs that Afatchic would not reveal Ani's role to us, and therefore paint them as a neutral survivor. I have seen this done once before in the Large Theme Death Note game that I played in.
.........................................
Most mods when they modkill make that person (whether scum or not) a neutral survivor. You've been on this site long enough that you should know that.

so you have one experience with this sort of thing and suddenly its "most mods"?

did you miss this one? its almost like a chicken/egg thing.

as in: you're just makin' shit up as you go along. you've been doing it all game.

KoC: i second the questioning of your aggression towards me. can't we kill each other like civilized people?

[Starbuck]

you're just makin' shit up as you go along. you've been doing it all game.

That's quite the accusation. Care to provide examples?

[Starbuck]

people weren't "playing" on the silences. someone made a case against her when she claimed that she didn't have time for this game. the evidence presented was presented in a way which made it look like star was lieing about the reasons surrounding her inactivity. she refused to address what was a completely and entirely refutable case based on time-stamped posts. it was her refusal to address the case which brought more pressure. when she chose to address the case and did so in a way that showed the case was poor, suspicion naturally moved to the player who had made the case. i am not the only player who followed this line of suspicion by a long shot.

she didn't answer the questions levelled at her until pressure was applied. if we agree, then we agree that starbuck has only responded to pressure and nothing more.

when did I ever say that I "didn't have time for this game"? I want you to find a post of mine where I said that I didn't have time for this game.

I went V/LA because I had a big inspection at my command. Quit making things up. How about the fact that Tjoe was stating that I made 36 posts during the time that I was V/LA when really I only made 17. You may need to read over Post 401 to refresh your memory because I completely debunked Tjoe's case.

Pretty much you guys are saying that if you don't live on MS 24 fucking 7 that someone is automatically scum.

You also wonder why I didn't want to respond. It's because I HAD POSTED A V/LA and that TJOE WAS TRYING TO USE MY REAL LIFE AGAINST ME. His case had nothing to do with what was going on in the game and considering his lack of participation, he seemed to be trying to take the easy way out. In a week, I normally have much more than 17 posts. I consider a good chunk of everyone here as experienced, and the fact that you guys never picked up on this really bothers me.



@JereIC - It's really easy to come back from lurking the whole game to jump on the bandwagon of the person who's got the most votes.

It doesn't seem right that everyone is jumping all over me about my "silences" when Jere has been quieter than any of us here. From September 23rd (when Jere joined the game) until his last post (October 21st), he only has 24 posts.

ISO 1 & 2 on Sept 23rd
ISO 3 on Sept 25th
(4 days of silence here WITHOUT a V/LA post)
ISO 4 on Sept 29th
ISO 5 on Sept 30th
ISO 6, 7 & 8 on Oct 1st
(3 days of silence here)
ISO 9 on Oct 4th
ISO 10, 11 on Oct 5th
ISO 12 on Oct 7th
ISO 13 & 14 on Oct 8th
(Another 4 days of silence WITHOUT a V/LA post)
ISO 15 & 16 on Oct 12th
ISO 17 on Oct 13th
ISO 18 on Oct 14th
(Another 4 days of silence WITHOUT a V/LA post)
ISO 19 on Oct 18th
ISO 20 on Oct 19th
ISO 21 & 22 on Oct 20th
ISO 23 & 24 on Oct 21st

Jere has a lot more time of silence than I do, and you guys are still giving me shit about my one week of V/LA. So how come all of that is still being held against me, but nothing is/has been said about Jere? That's quite hypocritical.

[Starbuck]

Although, since this is the post RIGHT ABOVE the one we're talking about this is code for I'm not even looking at what I posted then. Fine, though.

I'm still a little stung at the snipe at me and I'm trying to not let that cloud things but I don't get being that forgiving on Starbuck (especially since by any reasonable measure Italy hasn't been a factor in overall-site contribution) AND that abrasive towards DJ.

Instead of being an arrogant, ignorant ass (yes, I know full of ad hom, but it's what I feel at the moment), why don't you just answer a question? Before this game, I really enjoyed playing with you, now I won't ever be in a game that you or DJ are in. So where I have I been abrasive at any point other than trying to deal with how awful you two have been to me all game? The game of mafia is supposed to be heated, yes, but you guys have been nothing but rude, untactful, and have made this game very unenjoyable.

I read that post, but I wasn't sure if you were referring to a completely different one, which is why I asked you for the link.

You said that SK's partners would be trying to distance from him. Distance = bussing then?

What a better way to distance yourself from your scum buddy than by hunting them down being on their lynch and them flipping scum, therefore making you look like a hero, which is why I definitely can see a DJ/SK scum team.

SK jumped all crazy pants all over DJ in an effort to try and save himself. You have opted to do the exact same thing. Patterns do have meaning.

Well, if other people think I'm scummy and vote for me, then my flip will prove that patterns don't have a meaning. Also, you seem to be very concerned with defending DJ, it almost seems like you are defending DJ for DJ, and that really bothers me.

I think Starbuck has a moderately higher chance of being scum. The neighbor claim and the track being what they are I could see an early push to track someone scummy (like SK) and the kill being there to stop that from happening. And, well, this whole debacle today.

I don't know if you realize this or not, but I was ready to replace out at the beginning of Day 2 when Doom never showed up to the QT. I never got to use my ability because I had a shitty partner.

[Starbuck]

Another note, Faraday and Boxman only ever seems to pop in when it's convenient for them to do so.

[Faraday]

Hey, Starbuck. What's going on?

You're right tho, I lurk the forum 24/7 and then POP UP when needed. I gots mad ninja skills for an Irish boy.

On a more serious note, I'll get to this later, only posting now cos of what Starbuck said

[Starbuck]

Now going back to read Boxman in ISO...


From the beginning Boxman said that he was suspicious of Mordy, Kodamma and DJ via this post.

Playing with Boxman previously, he is normally a lot more upfront about his suspects this game, he seems to be sitting back and letting others do the work for him.

Boxman on DJ

How do you go from this:

This is the first time he mentions DJ:

don_johnson: Third person to vote for me, 2nd on the quick bandwagon. Has made some large, content-filled posts since then. Since I like his posting, I'm leaning town here.

He doesn't discuss DJ again until here where he says he likes DJ's defense against SK's case, but then he doesn't mention DJ again until here:

Anyway, I think Mordy and dj are the most suspicious right now. This is based off my suspicions from yesterday.

To This:

It also colors my feelings about dj - SK was pushing especially hard for dj's lynch. Either there was some major bussing going on, or dj is not a member of the mafia. I feel it is the latter.

Yeah, I doubt that dj is scum after the whole SK thing. I just can't see a scum trying to bus another under almost no pressure.

dj I currently see as town for the whole SK thing.

Boxman on Mordy

How do you go from this:

MordyS: Same symptoms as Kodamma - voting three times in his first three game posts. Also on the quick bandwagon. A few fairly large posts, but I'm leaning scum. Not as bad as Kodamma, but still leaning scum.

And then we have Mordy and Tjoe. Tjoe always acts like this, apparently, so that leaves Mordy. Like Jere said, you seem to be bent on killing Starbuck. Why? I'm personally not getting that much of a scum vibe from the claim, and a few scumtells here and there doesn't necessarily indicate scum. That said, 2 Neighbors usually does include a scum, but we can't assume that.

Vote: MordyS

I was suspicious of you yesterday, and today just makes me think you're scum.

I'm good with either a Mordy or a SK lynch. I am not game for my own for obvious reasons. It's late now, but I'll see who's more suspicious tomorrow.

To This:

I have to admit, just by looking at Mordy's posts, I don't have much of a case on him aside from his vote early on and a few things here and there. Other than that, I see him as neutral-town.

Back to this:

Anyway, I think Mordy and dj are the most suspicious right now. This is based off my suspicions from yesterday.

Then back to this:

As far as the others, I see Spyre, KoC, and Mordy as town currently.

Boxman on Me

How do you go from all of this:

Starbuck: Not very many posts, but I can see where she might be suspicious. I like her posting, so I give her a neutral-town read.

I'm willing to believe Starbuck's neighbor claim for now, but it definitely doesn't clear her. I'm not suspicious of her at all, though, so I'll roll with it for now.

I'm personally not getting that much of a scum vibe from the claim, and a few scumtells here and there doesn't necessarily indicate scum. That said, 2 Neighbors usually does include a scum, but we can't assume that.

Uh, just because 1 neighbor is usually scum doesn't mean we should lynch claimed neighbors on sight. She came out and claimed early when she didn't need to. That earns her town points from me. I'm honestly more thinking that she's town.

To This:

Your hop onto my Day 2 wagon here is especially scummy. I love how you flip from all the above quotes to this. Then once I explain myself, you hop right off.

Back to This:

Starbuck has a very interesting interaction with SK. Defending him at L-1 is weird, but I don't feel it is extremely suspicious. It is worth noting, however.

Then to this:

I'm assuming you don't want a claim out of me anymore, but I'm looking over SK's posts and, considering Starbuck's move to help him at L-1, it does make her look suspect.

(I cut out the middle about DJ)

Star isn't posting much in this game either - little scumhunting aside from pushing the suspicion on her onto Tjoe, who is probably the closest thing to clear we have.

That said, she is the only person to come forward and claim neighbor - however, neighbors can be and often are scum.

I have no qualms about putting Starbuck at L-1.

Vote: Starbuck

Starbuck I think is SK's scumbuddy.

And you guys say that I was flip flopping?