Mini 845 - The Amish Village (Game Over)

[magnus_orion]

sajin, could you state your opinion on le chat?

[iamausername]

I'm sure I'll have some exciting insights for you all in the next few hours.

OK, I may have slightly underestimated the time it would take me to read this game. Up to page 20 so far, but I have to leave for work. I'll finish up when I get back.

As of now, I am mostly wondering what Fishy could possibly have done in the last 6 pages to have no votes at all in the latest vote count.

[Percy]

I can help you with the scum game (since we are waiting on him for V/LA). He was scum in my recently modded Open 166.

OK, I read this game, but now le Chat has flaked.

He was slammed for hesitancy in that game too:

I find your play non-commital Chat

I've been getting this from my games and obviously it is something that I need to work on. It seems to stem mainly from my hesitancy to drop a vote. But I argue that I'm non-committal all across the board and its non a scum tell.

He seemed about as hesitant as he has been in this game, so I need a town game to compare it to.
He was also admittedly acutely aware of his mortality:

I was deathly afraid of seeming scummy for a hammer on spongebob so I didn't when I probably should have... I shouldn't have feared it so much, as though it was a scummy hammer I would technically be as at fault as the 3 other townies. I learned some things from this game even in losing.

Aside from that, it was a 9 page game and difficult to get a good read on him. It doesn't appear like he's got any completed games as town, not even a game where the game is ongoing but he's dead and town.
I have a mild scumread of le Chat, and his meta didn't help.

'aggressive speed'

There wasn't anything particularly aggressive or at all speedy about it. Veracity, maybe.

1) Wagon analysis and looking at le chat's motivations for joining the wagon are not the same thing.

Huh? So you're saying, analysing a person on the wagon for their contributions towards the wagon is a good thing, but looking at the wagon and trying to find scummy contributions in general is a bad thing. This is terrible logic, also backtracking.

The fact is that you "pushed" for a le Chat lynch and "pushed" away from a Ray lynch yesterday. Neither of your pushes were particularly awesome, but that's OK, you were replacing in; it's your play today that earned my vote - the former push you'd forgotten about (and your explanation/justification poor), and the latter push you want to now take credit for as indicative of your towniness!

I also think it's easier to tell town than to tell scum, especially early.

I think it's easy to tell pro-town from anti-town early. These things are sometimes correlated with alignment, but certainly not always.

I honestly don't see how townies can do anything but townhunt and scumhunt at the same time. If someone says something you think is probably coming from a townie, you form a town read. If scum, then scum. You talk about things that stand out, and hope to lynch the bad guys. Townhunting

in lieu

of scumhunting is just an excuse to stay off wagons and befriend the people who read town to others. It's the easiest function of a townie to fake as scum, and the most potentially disastrous for the town - if scum declares a strong town read of another player and the reader later flips scum, the readee attracts a lot of suspicion.

I was pretty sure Ray was town

and pushed pretty hard to save him

, noone listened and c'est la vie, but that shows a very clear read that I pushed hard for - accusations of sitting on the fence shouldn't really apply.

while I think 1,5 days from his replacing in post (or something like that) was too short time left to realistically accomplish another lynch and he clearly said he thinks Ray's town, the lack of persuasion on any alternative doesn't amount to the underlined rhetoric, which makes the self-crediting somewhat questionable.

This.

(Selfnote: Minor townpoints to chamber based on wagon feel - hung for a while on par with MM with 3 votes and nobody seemed to take much invested interest, although MM posted an odd excuse post during that timeframe that I would think scum would see as easy to take advantage of.)

I'm not so sure. I'd attribute that to his stubborn and evasive playstyle rather than alignment.

@all: If you are a pro-town roleblocker, claim now. If you are a doc, stay quiet. A roleblocker can lead directly to a gamebreak if memory serves given the lack of kill last Night.

This is a bad idea.

FoS: Kairyuu

.
Why do you think you can break the game this way?

Re: Herodotus' questions:

Until then though you will have to settle for the fact that it's my playstyle. Unless you feel these questions have specific relevance to this game.

You switched to an account so that you didn't have to answer these (type of) questions. Now you're asking us to be OK with answers like you gave in Post 571, but I'm simply not. Actively making it impossible for anyone to get a good read on you is scummy and extremely anti-town play.

HoS: chamber

. Answer the questions.

---

OOC:

O HAI THERE.

HAI! Nice to see you again

Magus would you consider the scum strategy in deathnote mafia to be a blame the townies that voted for a townie wagon or not? I would.

MAGNUS

There's an n.

Iamusername

lol'd.

[SerialClergyman]

Huh? So you're saying, analysing a person on the wagon for their contributions towards the wagon is a good thing, but looking at the wagon and trying to find scummy contributions in general is a bad thing. This is terrible logic, also backtracking.

I think either I'm not explaining it well or you're not getting it or some combination of both. I think of magnus's suggestion for wagon analysis as like kmd's wagon analysis - don't look at the motivations for being on the wagon, don't look at general scumminess at all, just have a theory that there are x number of scum on the wagon and start lynching people till you find them. While I don't mind that style in general, I think the nature of the lynch yesterday is such that that approach is not particularly helpful. I don't think it's likely the scum have all rushed onto the wagon, it was a lazy default lynch and I don't even think there was a serious competing wagon. I imagine at best it's probably slightly more likely to find scum on their than not.

However, if you want to look at motivations for votes, then yeah, le chat's vote stank and I think he's scummy because of it.

As for Ojanen's fair point about self-acceditation, I think you guys have a point and possibly I was self-agrandising (Sp?) in an unreasonable way. I just found it odd that I got a couple of votes pretty quickly into D2 after I was, loudly and convincingly or not, saying that Ray was likely town. Most of the people not on his wagon didn't even say that, they were apathetic or persuing other targets. You'll also note I defending the 'not good at D1' stance, which is a pretty concrete anti-consensus reason as to why I thought he was town.

magnus_orion 623 wrote:
Iamusername

lol'd.

Took me a while, but me too.

Percy - why'd you think it would be a bad idea from Kairyuu if he thought he could break the game? Are you suggesting he'd be likely to be scum, get the blocker to claim, say 'oshit I was wrong never mind' and then kill him?

[Kairyuu]

@Sajin:

@Kairyuu- How would a roleblocker claim break the setup in your opinion? Also, this statement is bad because you may have as well said you are NOT a roleblocker (or at least did not block last night etc etc, in any case, bad)

Hmm. Wait, no. It wouldn't break the game outright (last time we lynched one of the scum before the claim, leaving only 1 scum left and a living roleblocker. There were masons there too, so methinks that the game isn't quite broken). However, it would hand us a scum on a silver platter, so I'm still for having the claim happen. 1 for 1 is perfectly acceptable, even if it is a power role we lose.

@Percy:

This is a bad idea. FoS: Kairyuu.
Why do you think you can break the game this way?

S'not gamebreaking unless we lynch one of the other scum and get one or two confirmed townies (I'm assuming 3 scum, no SK at this point), which is the situation I had about a year ago in another mini normal (I was a mason with mykonian, and working with the roleblocker we broke the game open for an auto-town win.

However, you get a nice big

FoS: Percy

for setting yourself against something that would, at the very least, directly lead to a scum lynch today, and at most (assuming other situations were in play, which they aren't) would lead to a game break for the town. Not only do you oppose it, you become suddenly suspicious of the one who brings it up. This sounds an awful lot like scum trying to throw some shit around to keep a potentially serious problem from being listened to by the rest of the town.

@all: obviously, I still support the roleblocker claim. It gives us a guarenteed scum lynch today at the cost of one of the only power roles with a higher chance to hurt the town than to help it.

[Percy]

I think of magnus's suggestion for wagon analysis as like kmd's wagon analysis - don't look at the motivations for being on the wagon, don't look at general scumminess at all, just have a theory that there are x number of scum on the wagon and start lynching people till you find them.

I don't think this was magnus' approach. He said that he believed there were at least two scum on the wagon, but wasn't confident.

I just found it odd that I got a couple of votes pretty quickly into D2 after I was, loudly and convincingly or not, saying that Ray was likely town.

Um, that's not true at all. Here is your post at the start of today:

Possible town points to Percy given he didn't really have to hammer,

I was shaping up to do it

but he took responsibility and put himself on the wagon anyway.

Right, so you're saying you were shaping up to hammer likely town?

---

@Kairyuu: Firstly, you said you could break the game, not lynch the scum who was blocked by the theoretical RB. I think anyone who thinks they can break the entire setup in a closed game with only a VT flip on D2 is operating on more knowledge than a townie has at this point (that is, almost nothing).

Secondly, closed games are designed to be

highly

unpredictable. What if the scum have a resource to manage? This is exactly what happened in Hammersmouth is Under Attack! (a game I played with IAUN and Artem a while back). We thought we could break the setup, and we fucked the whole game with bad assumptions and attempts to outguess the mod. What if there's a bus driver? What if there's something you've never heard of? You can't guarantee the things you're guaranteeing. I'd say the worst case scenario here is a wasted day, a mislynch and a dead PR by tomorrow.

Most attempts to out roles and break setups on D2 are distracting and ultimately start the town talking about knowledge that's better kept secret. If you are seriously saying that there is no reason for a town RB to not come forward and then there is no such claim, what will you have done? You've helped the scum by letting them know there is no town RB, and helped the town not at all.

[chamber]

Talk on weather a theoretical rb should come forward or not is dangerous. Anyone who thinks they should, and doesn't, is clearly not said theoretical rb. At this point I say we leave it up to them to decide.

[SerialClergyman]

I'm not following your narrative at all. This is a selection of quotes so you can try to see my thought process. I think you'll see that I'm happy to say he's town but am prepared to vote him rather than lynch. In answer to your question, I'll hammer just about anyone rather than no lynch day 1. I also have a discussion about this with magnus earlier, who says he'd never hammer/vote someone he thought was town, in which I disagree.

but personally, I sympathised with MM completely when she said she wasn't a d1 player because I've been there.

Red is useless and has given up, so a lynch wouldn't be disasterous, but my suspicion is it'll hit town. That looks like the scapegoat lynch to me.

I'll also switch to him before deadline, but 1.5 days is enough to give it a whirl. And if he isn't lynched he might fire up and get his townie on.

Forgot to answer fishy - I think he's more likely to be town because I would rule out much of what people find scummy about him and the general shape of the wagon and position seems like town to me. (Ie, default deadline lynch rarely = scum)

Magnus, our (your?) wagon appears to be destined to be a sideshow. With ray not prepared to post I'm ok with a hammer, do you mind?

So as I said, even if it wasn't hugely loud and convincing I think it was at least there.

[Percy]

OK, I understand your explanation for hammering someone who is likely town. I can understand in some games that it may be the most pro-town thing to do, but I'm not 100% sold on it being the thing to do in these circumstances.

Still,
1. Your willingness to recruit town points for your read after you killed him for info is over-dramatic,
2. I still don't like the way you started the day without a case against le Chat, given your earlier rhetoric,
3. I think you're misrepresenting magnus to cover for your inconsistencies.

[Fishythefish]

On Le Chat's other game:
he most notable feature was an unwillingness to vote for other players, and a lack of serious suspicions - basically, fence-sitting. Actually, this hasn't really been an aspect of LC's play in this game since early on - even though he voted RF late day 1 explicitly to avoid fence sitting, this was the exception rather than the rule. LC took stances and stopped fence sitting before the other game ended. I think his scum game exhibits a different playstyle, and this makes me less suspicious of him. However, that's not a hugely strong feeling, because it was a short game, with only 6 players and in which he was a lover. All in all, quite a different scenario. Also, there's no town game to compare with.

[Amished]

Mod Votecount 2-4

iamausername (2): magnus_orion; kairyuu
kairyuu (3): chamber; SerialClergyman; VP Baltar
SerialClergyman (3): FishytheFish; Percy; Sajin
Sajin (1): Herodotus

Not voting (2): Ojanen; iamausername

[Ojanen]

@Sajin, you said

@SC- Group think is bad. Also the 6 people thing and trying to entrap all scum there is bad because missing 1 - instant loss and I view this strategy as an attempt to chain lynches together. Chaining lynches is bad.

vote: SC

@all- Group think is bad. If EVERYONE agrees for the path of a lynch then it is probably not a good path to take at all. Competing wagons help far far more for town then group consensus ever will.

VP then asked

How is it chaining lynches to say "I find XYZ town"? I'm not following your logic at all.

As far as I can tell, you addressed this by this

Someone brought up the term consensus. I hate consensus in mafia games as consensus is generally a bad path for the uninformed. I posted some thoughts about it. Is your question about why I posted it or about why I thought that? I was not sure so I answered both.

which isn't a concrete answer at all to stance I find suspect (vaguely phrased undermining of townreads with jumpy conclusion).
Explain please.
Your original logic, even if I put aside the conclusion I don't get, is ignoring that reads often have plasticity.

Kai, you usually have a theory on scum or are pushing hard to find them. Now you're back to posting walls I'm happier.

3/4 of Kai's catch up was simple answers to stuff said to/about him, this comment to it comes across as looking at volume instead of content. Expand on what made you feel better, please.

[Sajin]

@Ojanen- No that is not in response to that. That is in response to his other question. I do not understand what VP is asking me in that quote. SC is the one who made that jump about a good strategy.

SC suggested we narrow scum down by reads into a group and lynch out of that group. That is what I was responding too.

My response was about group consensus chat. Group consensus is not the same subject as chaining lynches.

@Magnus- Specific questions please. le_chat was talkative and made odd questions about fence sitting.

@SC- I would like a response of some kind to post 603.

[Ojanen]

SC suggested we narrow scum down by reads into a group and lynch out of that group. That is what I was responding too.

Waaitaminute, quote please, looks pretty misreppish from my memory. I heard him explaining that as his own early approach.

Do you think le chat/iamausername is scummy for his actions?

[Sajin]

Its not a singular quote. If he thinks I am misrepresenting him he can point out why and clarify his strategy.

Why are multiple people strong arming a lynch for Le_chat? Can someone post me a case rather then not quoted vague referenced meta and referencing his one "this vote is so I am not fence sitting post".

[Ojanen]

That is really a fantastically vague answer/dodge of both of my questions.

Its not a singular quote. If he thinks I am misrepresenting him he can point out why and clarify his strategy.

You avoid referencing

anything at all

by saying it's not singular. I think it's because you don't have anything. Prove me wrong, show me where

I view this strategy as an attempt to chain lynches together

is coming from.

Is the consensus you were talking about earlier referencing to magnus or Serial?

[Sajin]

I feel no need to prove anything at this time. Its in the thread, and I am attacking SC for it. Until he responds FIRST, then I will not be quoting anything. This is the best way to entrap scum.

I do not understand the last 2 sentences.

Also you did not respond to my question.

[Ojanen]

Your cat case request was not addressed to me if but I can summarize my understanding on it, although it's complete rehashing on other people's posts.
It's the vote:

I see that RayFrost is L-2, so I will

vote: RayFrost

, to do more than fence sit

Personally, I think the expressed motivation of the last post with the vote is a pretty decent basis for suspicion. Do you think it is scummy; what does your 639 imply?

Earlier "I don't wanna look scummy" stuff:

I said there was nothing to comment on, and then Claus chided me for it and said that it is suspicious that I didn't even attempt to find points of discussion in all their posts. So I didn't want to look suspicious / be worthless, so I did attempt to comment and discuss them.

i am uncertain on things because its hard to be certain of them. im not trying to please, but i am trying to avoid garnering unnecessary suspicion to myself and be a good townsperson.

It's expressed with slightly childish openness rather than sneakyness. The vote seems more significant.
---

basically, you agree with me that ray frost is scummy, but you dont agree with the manner by which i posted what i did. at the end of the Day, this does appear to me like if you are scum, and ray frost ends up town, then you are agreeing with the ray frost lynch while lining up your next lynch, on me, by saying my reasoning wasnt good. follow?

In defending his vote, credits magnus untruly with thinking RayFrost is scummy.
Thus, despite of the if, the hypotethical scenario gives a slight stink of informed, wanting to line up magnus himself.

I wanna see iamausername's contribution to give me more meat about the playerslot though.

----

I think you're saying something pretty objectively blatantly far away from what SC said, regardless if I'm a 3rd party commenting or not.

SC suggested we narrow scum down by reads into a group and lynch out of that group.

I really don't understand how you reached that conclusion from his posts defending his personal method of getting reads.

Its in the thread, and I am attacking SC for it. Until he responds FIRST, then I will not be quoting anything. This is the best way to entrap scum.

I think your hand is empty and you're bullshitting with these refusals and dodges to answer, but if it's in the thread, I will eagerly wait for the time Serial responds so you can tell me how I can find it looking from your thought process. In the meantime my earlier townread on Rosso is crumbling with lightning speed.

As for the line you didn't understand,

Someone brought up the term consensus. I hate consensus in mafia games as consensus is generally a bad path for the uninformed. I posted some thoughts about it. Is your question about why I posted it or about why I thought that? I was not sure so I answered both.

Where you referencing magnus or Serial with your consensus talk was my question.

[Ojanen]

EBWOP: Since the last line may be somewhat ambiguous otherwise, I meant it without the h.

"Were you referencing magnus or Serial with your consensus talk?" was my question.

[VP Baltar]

Sajin, I don't believe you answered this question:

How is it chaining lynches to say "I find XYZ town"? I'm not following your logic at all.

He seemed about as hesitant as he has been in this game, so I need a town game to compare it to.

Eh, I think he was more hesitant in that game. Regardless, I guess he has been replaced, so we will just have to hear from Iam.

I was, loudly and convincingly or not, saying that Ray was likely town. Most of the people not on his wagon didn't even say that, they were apathetic or persuing other targets.

This is actually 100% false. Magnus said he thought he was town. So did chamer. Rosso wasn't here at all, and I'm pretty sure Ray thought he was town as well. So, actually everyone not on the wagon said they thought he was town.

SC suggested we narrow scum down by reads into a group and lynch out of that group. That is what I was responding too.

Ok, well do you understand my question now? You said that SC eliminating players from potential suspects reads to you like he is "chaining lynches". I don't understand how you interpret town reads to be chaining lynches, so I would like you to actually explain how you arrive at that conclusion.

Its not a singular quote. If he thinks I am misrepresenting him he can point out why and clarify his strategy.

What? No. The onus isn't on SC to clarify his strategy because as far as I can tell many people at least understood what he meant (though they may not have agreed with his approach). You need to explain how he, given the quotes in the thread, was "chaining lynches".

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: Above portion about Ray wagon should say that everyone not on the wagon

except Rosso

said they thought he was town.

[magnus_orion]

*takes brake from obnoxiously long java code to check mafiascum.... *

@Magnus- Specific questions please. le_chat was talkative and made odd questions about fence sitting.

seriously? like, wow, I'm inclined to believe you're his scum partner from this alone....
I asked for your opinion on le chat...
implicitly where does he sit on a town to scum slider for you? Also, explain the reasons for your answer.
*returns to coding*

[Herodotus]

@Ojanen 606
When rereading earlier, I only noticed SC's big post, not the one you quoted. (I even had to iso him to see that he really said that.) I don't particularly agree with that post, as I think the game is less predictable than that.
Percy's 630 left me scratching my head, as I also don't remember SC talking about hammering, but he did. I'm not doing a good job of remembering the events of this game. Sorry; within a couple weeks, I'll be able to read and post more often, and probably be able to remember things better.

@Sajin
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about meta; my question has nothing to do with meta. This question is this - what do you think of Rosso's play?

If I think my predecessor's actions are scummy what is YOUR conclusion? If I think they are town? A mix?

Here it seems that you want to know what the "right answer" is before you respond.
If you suspected that I could be asking a question designed to make you look scummy under false pretenses, why would you not want to find out whether that was the case?
Basically, I'd like you to answer the question. At least briefly. From one sentence to a short paragraph would suffice; I only posted the long list of points because you asked for specifics. To place hurdles in front of someone trying to ask you a question is very anti-town.

@Magnus- Specific questions please. le_chat was talkative and made odd questions about fence sitting.

(see previous paragraph)

I think I understand what Sajin means about chaining lynches, but I'll let him respond first.

@Chamber
The relevance is that your play feels unhelpful at times. I look forward to reading the wikipage you mention, even if you don't write it during this game.

[magnus_orion]

so....
Right now, I'm thinking iamausername and sajin are happy-happy scum buddies that need to be hung in a particularly violent, groupthink driven frenzy.

[chamber]

so....
Right now, I'm thinking iamausername and sajin are happy-happy scum buddies that need to be hung in a particularly violent, groupthink driven frenzy.

On a scale of 1-10 how sure are you of kairyuu being town? Can you provide the meta reason again + a link to 1 game showing it as town, and one showing it as scum?