Redefining Normal

[zoraster]

I don't have a problem with either rule. (I think mods should have to

warn

players that they're in danger of being replaced for not posting enough before they do so, but I think that's true in theme games, too.) Basically, as long as you're not running 72-hour deadlines or universal daytalking, or banning no-lynch, there aren't a lot of rules that wouldn't be normal in my book.

The fisherman role was not normal (and an absolutely terrible role), though.

Yeah, as I mentioned, I would definitely change the fisherman thing. It did not accomplish what I had hoped, and I should have known it. That said, it didn't unbalance the game or anything.

It was nonstandard, certainly, but given the normal rules, it was allowable.

[SensFan]

I don't have a problem with either rule. (I think mods should have to

warn

players that they're in danger of being replaced for not posting enough before they do so, but I think that's true in theme games, too.) Basically, as long as you're not running 72-hour deadlines or universal daytalking, or banning no-lynch, there aren't a lot of rules that wouldn't be normal in my book.

The fisherman role was not normal (and an absolutely terrible role), though.

You don't have a problem that if I just pop into the Mini Normal Queue and post "/in for next", I may get placed in a game where majority-vote doesn't cause a lynch?

[Ether]

Not really, no. I don't see how the rule change actually affects how people play the game. Beyond preventing speedhammers, which is hardly a big deal.

You don't have a problem that if I just pop into the mini normal queue and post "/in for next," I may get placed in a game where scumminess is secondary to analyzing claims and outguessing the mod?

[SensFan]

Except it drastically affects the game. LyLo scenario, the Town agrees to lynch X. Then, 23 hours later, the Scum on the wagon all move onto Y, who is then lynched.

It's hardly second, just because not everyone has a Vanilla role. But claims are a part of Mafia anyways, whether it's wondering if a Cop/Doc combo exists in the game, or whether there's any vanilla.

[Ether]

I actually didn't think of that loophole; it's a good point. (It can be prevented, but it's probably not worth the trouble.)

My experience with low-vanilla puts the emphasis on behavior

very

low. The fact that claims are a

part

of mafia gives them no right to encompass a whole "normal" game--and that's what they do. Look at (ugh) Mini 771 and tell me what wasn't basically forced, aside from a single 50-50 endgame decision.

[SensFan]

That set-up (771) has the same problem Yos pointed out in the one I spitballed together; far too many confirmable Town.

[zoraster]

Except it drastically affects the game. LyLo scenario, the Town agrees to lynch X. Then, 23 hours later, the Scum on the wagon all move onto Y, who is then lynched.

It's hardly second, just because not everyone has a Vanilla role. But claims are a part of Mafia anyways, whether it's wondering if a Cop/Doc combo exists in the game, or whether there's any vanilla.

It'd be really tough to do that, beyond just the timing issues since you can't generally communicate with scummates during the day without giving up the game.

Take a pretty simple situation. 7 left, 3 scum. Lylo. Assuming the majority is reached on a scum member (or else it'd be irrelevant)

A majority is reached to 4 on one of the scum members. Let's take some examples:
1. 1 scum on the majority lynch who switches votes at the last minute. This only changes the lynch if the two other scummates plus a townie were on a wagon. That's certainly effective, but consider that the same issue exists in a majority ends the day game as that third scummate would simply hammer home the win.
2. 2 scum on the majority wagon: again you have the same issue. Say it's 1 townie and 1 scum on the other wagon (4-2). At the last minute the two switch. Again, if they could coordinate that well in general, they could simply hammer home the win in a majority system with the same votes otherwise.

So no. I agree with you that it doesn't completely erase the chance of a speed hammer. But it does make it a lot harder.

[Hoopla]

Why do you like that mechanic though? How is it better than majority lynching?

[zoraster]

When I don't have a game currently running using it, I'll go more into the advantages (and disadvantages, which are significant but not the one SensFran has brought up) of it. I'm not sure it's fair to go into it right now as it's too specifically applicable to a game rather than merely general theory.

[Ether]

That set-up (771) has the same problem Yos pointed out in the one I spitballed together; far too many confirmable Town.

That

did

suck, yes.

It was argued postgame that the setup was engineered (three non-cop investigative roles and a miller) to tempt the town into lynching non-vanillas. If this had actually happened, would you be saying the game was normal?

[Hoopla]

For those parading the mantra of 'back to basics' (which seems to be a handful of traditional roles and a slew of vanillas), the emphasis is obviously about maintaining the day game, rather than the focus shifting to what happens at night. Wouldn't a better way to do this be by not isolating most of the town's extra power in 2-3 roles? Rather than having a cop/doc/vigilante, going for weaker things like trackers or 1-shot roles seem more likely to maintain the town finds scum in day time.

Too often basic games can be changed signifigantly by a cop or a vigilante doing things at night. Cops are a dated role that should become a relic of the past, and one-shot vigilantes are a big improvement on the regular vigilante. The easiest way to make day-focused games is by using some weaker roles, rather than having 1-3 traditional powerful roles.

[Ether]

the emphasis is obviously about maintaining the day game, rather than the focus shifting to what happens at night.

That's only a part of it. Games with enough night power to be breakable suck, yeah--but I care just as much about the impact of roles during the day. How the town reacts to roleclaims and counterclaims and how much it outguesses the mod and how creative fakeclaims have to be. When I'm scum, sometimes I'd rather not have to run up half the town looking for one person who won't cry out, "Back off! I'm a martyr."

Bringing in a higher quantity of power roles means more of that, no matter how weak the roles are.

[Hoopla]

But games with isolated power in 1-2 roles suck because if they get offed early, it's an uphill battle as the balance tends to depend on them.

There have been breakable games that have a lot of nightpower. There have been breakable games that have little power too. The weaker roles are, the less chance they have of being effective in catching scum or preventing kills or becoming provable. The only thing that is harder is ensuring balance and preventing breakable scenarios.

I acknowledge you may talk about role-claims and whatnot slightly more, but I don't think this detracts that heavily from typical scumhunting. If more games were like this, I'd argue it would improve it, as there is less scenarios of lynching due to cop results or a vig winning/losing for the town.

It kind of looks like I hate vanilla, but I don't.

[charter]

Having not read any of this thread, I think that normal should be based on skill, not outguessing the mod.

It would be great if there was a predefined ruleset for normal games, though at some point you need to have one person (Meme?) make the final rulings for what all can be normal and what isn't. I've recently been in two mini normals where there were roles I would have never thought could be in the game (one was a role I've never seen before, pretty sure has been used just twice (if that) on MS at all). I think it would be great if every mini normal was assumed to be semi open, with all the possible role PM's being on the wki or something, that way no one can outguess flavor or whatever (though I think that mods adding flavor to a game is good, I don't think that game related info should be able to be discerned from mod posts). Maybe more points later, though I think that someone (doesn't really matter who, just needs to be someone) decides on a standard list of roles.

I also obviously agree that alignment switching should never be included in a game unless it is specifically warned by by the mod in signups (kind of a similar point). I don't think it's fair to players if they sign up for a game with the assumption that their win condition will remain the same (which should by assumed by everyone when they sign up for a game) but then that assumption is violated. I know I would be very pissed if I had made it five days as town in a large game, then my win condition changed.

[Ectomancer]

When I don't have a game currently running using it, I'll go more into the advantages (and disadvantages, which are significant but not the one SensFran has brought up) of it. I'm not sure it's fair to go into it right now as it's too specifically applicable to a game rather than merely general theory.

If it is standard you should be able to discuss the mechanic regardless of whether a game is running or not. Your statement illustrates that even you don't believe it to be standard or common.

[Seol]

When I don't have a game currently running using it, I'll go more into the advantages (and disadvantages, which are significant but not the one SensFran has brought up) of it. I'm not sure it's fair to go into it right now as it's too specifically applicable to a game rather than merely general theory.

If it is standard you should be able to discuss the mechanic regardless of whether a game is running or not. Your statement illustrates that even you don't believe it to be standard or common.

Not really - if you're trying to discuss a corner case about a specific situation that arose, you really need to cite that situation.

[SensFan]

zoraster, I could come up with a ruleset where it takes less than a majority to lynch. It might be a really fun way to play the game.

But it's not what people expect when they join a Normal game.

Normal games are often joined with just popping into the thread, posting /in, and popping out. If I wanted to join a game with a rule change that will dominate the game, I'd be in the Theme Queue, and checking out the blurbs about games before joining them.

I haven't read either of the game you've modded with this ruleset, but I would say you're very lucky if a significant portion of the game didn't ask to be replaced as soon as the game started.

[Ectomancer]

When I don't have a game currently running using it, I'll go more into the advantages (and disadvantages, which are significant but not the one SensFran has brought up) of it. I'm not sure it's fair to go into it right now as it's too specifically applicable to a game rather than merely general theory.

If it is standard you should be able to discuss the mechanic regardless of whether a game is running or not. Your statement illustrates that even you don't believe it to be standard or common.

Not really - if you're trying to discuss a corner case about a specific situation that arose, you really need to cite that situation.

If it is a standard mechanic every situation has already arisen and isn't taboo to discuss. If there is a situation so unique to this game mode that you cant discuss it while a game is ongoing, it just makes the point that it isn't standard, or everyone would already know whatever deep insight he has declined to offer on it.

[Thok]

For what it's worth, my list of normal roles.

Vanilla Townie
Cop (any nonrandom sanity)
Doctor
Night Vig (not day vig, either scum or town)
Mason (mod confirmed: I feel scum mason only makes sense in theme games where the theme hints at a scum mason, so there's no point not confirming the mason in a normal set up.)
Roleblocker (town or scum)
Godfather (any variant of protections)
Miller
Tracker
Watcher
Jailkeeper
Role Cop
Double Voter
Hider
Backup Cop (possibly backup Tracker or Watcher, although those have never been used.)
Backup Doc
Bodyguard
Cult, but only if the game is really large
SK
Tree-Stump (OK, this is probably too rare to be normal, but changing one vanilla townie to a tree stump shouldn't affect whether a game is normal.)

I specifically don't include Busdriver/Redirector, since if one of those dies it makes all other role actions occurring before it's death potentially useless to town. Also, a one busdriver, one vanilla, one scum night turns into a guessing game for scum. I realize the role is popular, but it strikes me as a very much not normal.

I've probably missed a few roles.

[Seol]

When I don't have a game currently running using it, I'll go more into the advantages (and disadvantages, which are significant but not the one SensFran has brought up) of it. I'm not sure it's fair to go into it right now as it's too specifically applicable to a game rather than merely general theory.

If it is standard you should be able to discuss the mechanic regardless of whether a game is running or not. Your statement illustrates that even you don't believe it to be standard or common.

Not really - if you're trying to discuss a corner case about a specific situation that arose, you really need to cite that situation.

If it is a standard mechanic every situation has already arisen and isn't taboo to discuss. If there is a situation so unique to this game mode that you cant discuss it while a game is ongoing, it just makes the point that it isn't standard, or everyone would already know whatever deep insight he has declined to offer on it.

It may have happened before, but talking about it now when there's a clear connection to another game, where the hypothetical relates to something in the game, is potentially disruptive to that game. The situation may not be taboo in a vacuum, but talking about it isn't done in a vacuum.

[Ectomancer]

Are you trying to say that a mod in a standard lynch game talking in some MD theory thread about the possiblity of scum quick lynching would jeopardize a game they are modding? No way. Like I said, the fact that there is something so super secret about the mechanics of his game that he cant even talk about it just shows that it isnt normal and should be in a queue other than normal.

[zoraster]

Are you trying to say that a mod in a standard lynch game talking in some MD theory thread about the possiblity of scum quick lynching would jeopardize a game they are modding? No way. Like I said, the fact that there is something so super secret about the mechanics of his game that he cant even talk about it just shows that it isnt normal and should be in a queue other than normal.

If you pull out of my post that there is something "super secret," then I think you're looking for a fight. Remember that Discussion is not a Mafia Game. You gain nothing out of trying to get a rise out of someone.

There is nothing particularly super secret about the mechanic. I even discussed in some depth SensFran's criticism that you've cited. However, all things equal, I prefer to keep things that might influence one of my games to a minimum. I don't expect the players in my games to have to scour other forums to get my read (which is not by any means the only read) of the situation. Therefore, I'll keep my evaluation of the mechanic to myself until the game finishes.

I only think I might have an evaluation worth hearing because I've both (a) run a game with it already and (b) spent a lot of time thinking about the consequences, positive and negative.

Finally, I feel in no rush to discuss it further with you. There is nothing gained by talking about it now rather than later.

[Ectomancer]

There is no need to discuss it with me further. It isn't normal, it doesn't belong in the normal queue. There is nothing you can say later, regardless of your game, that will change anything about the mechanic.

[zoraster]

And I'm okay with you holding that opinion. It's just not one I share.

[SensFan]

zoraster, your game in the

Normal

Queue(s) is unlike any other game that has ever been run on this site.

Do I even need to finish that line of thought?