Newbie 871 - Game Over Town Win

[Ether]

Ether, can you explain the sympathy thing you felt with respect to Randal and Patrick's feeling for him?

My "sympathy" was me sweetly agreeing that work sucks, but he still needed to post. Patrick was presumably taking his indignation about how I could possibly want him out of the background as a town tell.

I don't have anything logical to say against the Herdhate. It's annoying; you could easily be right. I agree that he needs to get back to us, too.

[Patrick]

Annoying how? Do you have a gut feeling he's town or something?

[Ether]

If I had a proper town read on him, gut or not, I'd be fighting his wagon harder.

Dunno. I'm not interested in it, but I get the sense I probably should be. I think it's likely that my subconscious is just being funny because I was actively pushing Ksen over Herd earlier and was impatient with the people who weren't. I should look at that earlier stuff again.

[boberz]

Patrick, with respect to herd's last post that i said i was more happy with. I was happy with a bit of self confession. He admitted he had not been a sharp poster, and he admitted he didnt stimulate activity. Once these have been recognised the player has to act on them, otherwise it changes from what i consider a null/scum tell (i know some of you think it definately scummy) into a definate scum tell. So because he recognised these he forces himself into becoming more active, therefore townish. However if he does not act on this, does not become more active, then he will be very scummy to me NB// he has not posted yet his next one better have some content.

I still dont like the fact he seems to want to be asked the questions, even when I asked him to post some content he said "tell me if you wanted something else" I did not like that at all but gave him the benefit of the doubt. The point is I wanted him to be original, I said the same to ksen who responded by voting for me, perhaps I should be carefull what I wish for.

Patrick a while ago you had a ksen/herd scum theory, is it still on? was it a read on each seperately or was it a joint read on two dodgyish people.

Ether, sorry i still have trouble deciphering what you lot say at times. On your randall vote, i was tempted to reply to this after randall posted, but then thought no, you asked you can have the answer. I think it is poorish.

I think it is clear that first round you three will stay in, and I should stay in. That leaves: annachie, herd, ksen, randall and yarmond (/possible successor). There is pressure on herd and ksen, and people chatting about annachie. We both agree that yarmond is a bad vote atm. So your spreading the pressure onto randall makes it look a bit powerless to me.

I can see your reasons, i object to your timing, I would have let the dust settle and apply pressure in a day or two (real time not game time).

Have noted more has been written since I beganso the last three posts/further thoughts are below:

I realise having read the first part of this post that perhaps i was being selfish in moaning at your timing, I wanted another come back to me from ksen on L-2 or L-1 before the voting changed. But now I see he was gonna duck out till tommorow anyway, that has been his tactic so I am not as viciously against your vote as I was 15 mins ago.

I have a thought brewing but I cant place it yet.

[herd456]

Annachie, I hope your wife is well soon.

Anyway, I haven't looked too much at the links ksen provided, but we should probably be at least a little sympathetic with the whole "lynch an inactive" thing--It's wrong, but I belong to another forum which has mafia (I've never played there) where lynching inactives seems to be commonplace.

On to Annachie. At the moment he is the best place for my vote. I'm still getting town vibes from Ether and boberz. Everyone else is more or less neutral still, except for ksen and Annachie.

ksen

: I still argue he's posted next-to nothing. Honestly, he's linked us to a few games on some forum in which it is appropriate to lynch inactives (though I still haven't had the best look at them--Someone who has should correct me if I'm making an oversimplification) and he has called out Yarmond for not having posted. While, as above, I sympathize that he probably has learnt that this is correct, he should have posted some actual reads by now. I'm not sure what to make of the dialogue between him and boberz except that ksen is being stubborn, and boberz is still giving the same town vibe he has the whole game. Therefore I see ksen on the whole as useless, but not necessarily because he is scum--Though this is one possible explanation.

Annachie

: I'll say from the beginning that I don't like how he made three posts from my vote on him without commenting about it/me/anyone else, but I can let that slide given the circumstances. I definitely want to know why he's voted me, and the answers to questions others have posed to him in his next post, though. I'll flesh out my earlier vote on him now.

(I don't see hypocrisy as a scumtell, incidentally, and I think Herd is understating Annachie's content in contrast to Ksen's.)

I think in Annachie's case hypocrisy is a scumtell, though it may not be in all cases. The two main points in which he was being hypocritical are that he requested opinions which he had not yet divulged himself, and that he used my not having posted much content as a reason to vote for me, while he hadn't either. My main problem is the former, as the latter could be (somewhat) excused by his situation in real life. Withholding such information only benefits him as scum, and getting it from others could help either side, but he then looks like a proactive townie aiding in the discussion.

Moreover, I think he is blatantly dodging questions. Or at least the one about my being confrontational. He has responded to several things after the posting of this question, which leads me to further believe that he was looking for a reason to vote for me (since I'd called him my biggest scum read) and that's what he came up with.

Oh, and

it seems like he's asking for permission on whether or not OMGUS is actually a scum tell rather than explaining why he thinks it is

Rather I was excusing what might have been confused with OMGUS--I didn't want people to think I was doing exactly as Annachie was doing.

[starkmoon]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 5

Annachie

- 1 - herd456 - (L-4)

boberz

- 1 - ksen - (L-4)

DarthRandall1138

- 1 - Ether - (L-4)

herd456

- 3 - Incognito, Annachie, Patrick - (L-2)

ksen

- 1 - boberz - (L-4)

Yarmond

- 1 - DarthRandall1138 - (L-4)

Players not voting: Yarmond

Sorry for not vote counting properly, got kinda distracted by being pampered for my birthday

[Incognito]

herd, out of curiosity, what made me and Patrick sink from being townish to neutral?

[Incognito]

Oh and

mod:

happy birthday! Any news on Yarmond?

[Ether]

Boberz, I'm confused by your ideas about pressure. We pressured Ksen. The rest of us decided that his reactions (or whatever) implied townishness, and decided to move on to pressure other players. That's...pretty much how it works. Some people are pressuring Herd now; I'm voting Randal. (Herd's at -2 like ksen was, though you probably shouldn't use that to read into my decision not to vote him. I wasn't really keeping track of the votecount.) Do you think it hurts the town that the vote is split?

Herd, hypocrisy isn't the tell you want in either of those cases. "Requesting opinions that [one has] not yet divulged [itself]" isn't a tell at all; it's a helpful scumhunting method which I for one use constantly. Not posting much content is a scumtell in and of itself.

I think the blatantly dodging questions thing is true.

What do you think about Randal? And yeah, same question as Incognito.

[herd456]

@Incognito: The only read I had on you two was a weak one, and since then you've been pretty neutral to me, so you fall under "more or less neutral."

Randal seems to have essentially repeated what everyone else had already said in his last post, which obviously isn't helpful. I guess it could be seen as scummy not to post original stuff but just to summarize and make it look like you're adding to the discussion, but I don't know. I'm not sure, but is it usually a tell if someone puts a "pressure vote" on an inactive player? It seems as though it might be a bit protown, but I don't know.

I will say that, if anyone, Annachie should be calling Randal confrontational, not me.

[herd456]

Hmm so I missed this, but Annachie did call Randal confrontational. Whoops.

Oh, and happy birthday,

starkmoon

!

[Incognito]

I'm not sure, but is it usually a tell if someone puts a "pressure vote" on an inactive player?

I'm waiting for Randall to answer my question about this actually. I don't think it's too much of a tell, but I

do

think the other part he wrote about (and I'm paraphrasing) "this vote is here until you say something" is pretty problematic, imo.

Also, with regard to all this talk about being confrontational, I don't think being confrontational is really a scum-tell either -- if anything I always thought being confrontational and having an "in your face" type of attitude was often seen as townish depending on how it's done. I'm more bothered by the fact that Annachie's description of your actions doesn't seem to match what I've read from you so far, so I, like you, wanted him to back his statement up with some solid examples and an explanation as to why he thought this action made you more likely to be scum.

What is it about my play outside of that AIM thing that's made me neutral?

[starkmoon]

Yarmond has been prodded, will keep you posted.

[boberz]

ether, I was tired last night and didnt make much sense. I think towns vote being split three or four ways when one or two people arent voting is bad, it is bad because it means all the votes have little value. At the moment I am not at all worried by the one vote I have (although a touch dubious about why i got it) but if I was at L-1 I would have to make a bigger fight. If scum had to make a bigger fight then they would have to commit to things and make judgements that we could then criticise in later rounds if necessary. I see herd is at L-2 but that happened after my vote had been placed.

The fact that the rest of you thought he was a bit more town is fair enough, I mentioned that I realised my criticism was selfish. I do not see him as townish, but i did have him as slightly town while a lot of you were sceptical.

[ksen]

Here are a few of my thoughts:

1) I signed up here to play in order to help make me a better mafia player. I appreciate the insight of the more experienced players especially when it concerns scum-hunting because until this game I've never really had to do it so I'm unsure how one goes about it and what a person is supposed to look for. In the games I've played before, some linked upthread, it was always the same group of people playing against one another so the trick was to try and recognize patterns and figure out who was breaking that pattern. Also people were expected to follow the lead of one or two of the more experienced players and that leads, imo, to leaning on them as a crutch because you don't have to do your own opining on other people because you can just bandwagon on to what the experienced guys want town to do.

I hope that helps explain my perceived lack of saying anything useful over here.

2) Here's a list of the players and my current thoughts about each of them:

herd456:

low to medium level of activity and has been pretty defensive. I am slightly suspicious of him.

boberz:

Very active. In the beginning I read his long and numerous posts as attempting to lead town. I am neutral on him right now but leaning town.

Yarmond:

No activity to date. Normally I'd find that suspicious in and of itself but after reading the other discussion and seeing that he's being prodded I have to leave him as neutral for now.

DarthRandal1138:

Low activity and what activity there has been has been sort of stand-offish if not downright defensive. I'd like to hear what he has to say about Ether's vote on him. I am leaning towards scum on him. Could his aggressive posts be some sort of gambit to throw town off if he really is scum?

Annachie:

Low activity but RL sounds like it is probably affecting his level of play. I hope things settle down for him soon. I was suspicious of him but now I'm more neutral towards him although it did read like he may have been fishing for who the specials were. I'll be watching for more of that.

Ether (SE):

Has been helpful to town and active. I thing Ether is probably town.

Patrick (SE):

Low activity. But what activity he's had seems to have been directed at trying to help town.

Incognito (IC):

High level of activity and has been actively involved in scumhunting. I think Incognito is most likely town.

I am going to

unvote: boberz

.

I am most suspicious right now of Herd, Darth, and Annachie.

vote: DarthRandal1138

[boberz]

I have gone from your most scummy to leaning town in about a page (which I spent most;y attacking you), can you explain please. Is it possible you are following the experienced players too much.

[ksen]

@boberz

- Yes, I am following the lead of the more experienced players in this case. And since the majority of them have basically cleared you as being town then it makes sense not to waste a vote on you. I think I may have had some tunnelvision on you because of how the day started and your continued focus on me.

[Patrick]

Patrick a while ago you had a ksen/herd scum theory, is it still on? was it a read on each seperately or was it a joint read on two dodgyish people.

Joint read plus the tone of herd's comments towards ksen's lack of content seemed relatively lenient compared to what he said about Annachie's lack of content. He's explained why he saw Annachie as worse, and though I completely disagree that asking for an opinion on something without having given one yourself is scummy, I can at least see it as somewhat plausible for someone to think. It's still a possibility that they're scum together, but nothing special. Having said that, I'd like ksen to explain how he decided that herd has been more active than I have.

I may have more to add later, but dashing out now.

[ksen]

@Patrick

: It was just an impression I had. I went back through the thread and counted posts. You have 16 posts to herd's 10 posts as of the post I'm responding to. I guess I was thrown off by the amount of talk directed about herd rather than about you.

[boberz]

ksen is almost making too many mistakes to be scum, I think scum would think more before they speak particularly when they have been caught out a couple of times, does anyone else get this impression?

[Ether]

Also people were expected to follow the lead of one or two of the more experienced players

Totally off-topic: what do you mean, "expected?" Didn't they try to get you to do your own thing at least early on so they could read you?

Boberz, a vote has as much meaning as you give it. I think there are better ways to force scum to commit to stuff. (Asking them is one. Having multiple wagons is another, though of course that's not the main reason I'm voting Randal right now.) I'm not really sure what else to say--pressure is useful, but you can generally produce enough pressure on your own to get results if you're vocal enough.

I think Ksen's been all right lately; I haven't been perceiving his recent play as mistakes in the first place. But as it happens, I

am

voting the guy who makes a point of thinking before he speaks. (Also, he's less than 12 hours away from a prod.)

I'm being shockingly lax about spamming this game today.

[Incognito]

Stream of consciousness rather than making mistakes is how I would describe ksen right now. I like it.

Also, I agree with Ether with regard to other methods to create pressure on players other than large wagons.

And since the majority of them have basically cleared you as being town then it makes sense not to waste a vote on you.

I don't think what I'm going to say applies here with boberz at the moment, but I felt the need to comment on this anyway. Just because a majority of players have someone 'cleared' as town doesn't always mean you should just completely back away from said player no matter what the experience level of the players might be. It's very well possible that you might be catching something that nobody else has caught and if that's the case, it would be your job if you're town to try and call everyone else's attention to it. If people still don't see what you're seeing after repeated efforts, then you might consider backing away for some time to refocus your efforts, but I don't think it should happen for the reasons you listed (the experience levelof the players) in your previous post.

-~-~

I wish I had more to add tonight. I'd like to read more from Darth and Annachie about the recent developments.

[ksen]

Totally off-topic: what do you mean, "expected?" Didn't they try to get you to do your own thing at least early on so they could read you?

The experienced players would post their thoughts. When inexperienced players posted theirs instead of reasoning with the more inexperienced players about why their logic was off invectives like "retard" were hurled about. It's pretty frustrating as someone who is trying to learn the game especially the parts about scumhunting and what makes a particular more scummy than a different action.

[boberz]

Doesnt sound like a great place for mafia if I am honest, maybe that was just certain players though I dont want to criticise the whole website.

Anyway ksen you say i tried to lead town. What do you meant? I thought you were town on me early (maybe I have remembered wrongly) and only switched recently, surely if i was trying to lead town that would be scummy. Why would you not mention it at the time?

To the three experienced players: if one of the other experienced players is scum, who is it?

[Patrick]

Well, I think they're both almost certainly town. I guess Incog if you forced me to pick, but I don't see it as a question I can usefully answer.