Mini 878: Nouns Mafia - Da game is ovah!

[SpyreX]

When Ice said *L-1* I assumed that was *'d because my vote would be the hammer. When I saw that he unvoted while I was typing I made sure to note that it was not some sly attempt to hammer that was undermined by unvoting while I was posting.

That's the only reason I did it to try and stop what happened the last page.

Vote Count Four Teen

SpyreX:

2 (Percy, Seol)

Seol:

2 (SpyreX)

StrangerCoug:

2 (Konowa, MacavityLock)

MacavityLock:

1 (StrangerCoug)

Not Voting:

(elvis_knits, Iecerint)

8

alive,

5

to lynch.

Your rapidly approaching Deadline:

Wednesday, December 2nd, 12:00 Noon EST

[SpyreX]

And with BK/Para not voting Day 1 I don't even know what to make of it. Nothing in the role suggests doublevoter (and this is doubly so day 1) so I have to assume one had nothing to do with the other.

[Seol]

When Ice said *L-1* I assumed that was *'d because my vote would be the hammer. When I saw that he unvoted while I was typing I made sure to note that it was not some sly attempt to hammer that was undermined by unvoting while I was posting.

That's the only reason I did it to try and stop what happened the last page.

So you assumed that by *L-1*, he meant L-2, and it was only effectively L-1 for you? And therefore that when he unvoted, I was three off?

[DraketheFake]

Activity Check and Reminders

• I am prodding
  Konowa
  , who has not posted since
  Tuesday, Nov. 24th
  .
  
• The deadline is on this upcoming
  Wednesday, December 2nd
  , at
  12:00 PM (noon) EST
  . When deadline is reached, the
  player
  with the most
  votes
  with be lynched. See the
  rules
  for more information.
  
• Vote Count
  up top is correct to my knowledge.

[elvis_knits]

Well, I don't know what to make of spyrex the double-voter who didn't know he was a double voter.

I would assume a double voter who didn't know he was a double voter to have been given the ability by someone else. That's the way I have seen it work in the past. By spyrex says he *thinks* it's due to his role. How you would *think* but not KNOW, not really sure. Spyrex... can you ask mod to clarify?

Parh/bigK not ever voting supports that maybe they did know they had a double vote. But spyrex says no... :/

Anyway, not sure this helps us get closer to lynching, which we need to do ASAP.

I'm going to reread a little, thinking if I want to revote Seol or SC. I'm thinking I will go one of those two places.

[elvis_knits]

Seol, can you tell me who you think is scummy at this point with maybe a little short reasoning. (Be as long as you want -- I just mean for my sake I don't need you to do a lot of work for it if you don't have time or motivation).

I'm sure spyrex is up there, but who else are you suspicious of?

[elvis_knits]

You actually did miss something, I didn't like the vote you threw on bigk/spyrex after he was replaced but before he had a chance to post. I think it's anti-town to switch your vote to a replacement before you read their posts and make a more informed decision. When a replacement is coming in, that is your chance to refine your read. I wouldn't expect a player to UNvote the replacement just out of policy, but if you're not already voting the replaced player, I would not expect you to pick that chance to vote. It makes me think you are not interested in hearing what the replacement has to say.

I think you addressed this at one point, but I still have a problem with it.

Okay, well for the record I'll restate my position: I had reason to suspect b_k was scum (I know you didn't agree with it), so I thought that, based on the information currently out there, he was the best place for my vote. It's always good to hear more, but that doesn't mean that what people said before they were replaced should be disregarded, or that you need a watertight case before putting that vote on - especially when it is, after all, only a first vote.

It's not something Spyre can address, so talking to him about

that

won't really help (he's no more informed than anyone else) - it's a point which, one way or the other, is on the record and nothing will alter. That's not to say I wasn't interested in hearing lots more from Spyre, but my vote wasn't going to interfere with that. As I recall, you didn't like my position much: I'm mostly restating it for the benefit of everyone else.

Seol, the main reason you gave for voting bigK was that you thought his mix-up about the night actions was a fabrication. This is a WIFOM reason, one that I don't think is very good from ANYONE, and one that I see as particularly out of character for you. You seem very logical, so this does not seem like a reason you would put much weight on. I cannot see why that was compelling enough for you to put your vote there, especially when you were about to get a better read on the player slot by reading posts by spyrex.

I know we've talked on this issue, but I don't think you've defended why this was a compelling reason to vote bigK. Do you disagree that it's WIFOM?

This is your post where you vote bigK, for reference:

big_kahunia: Oh dear. I didn't like him before, and I really don't like him now.

Check that. Hoopla was mafia, not Sensfan. My bad. I skimmed Drake’s post.

This really rings false for me. Particularly the 4-minute gap between the posts: it feels engineered, intentional. This is particularly true given that much of the discussion to that point was centred on Box being scum and the consequences thereon.

Of course, if it

was

intentional, that puts BK as scum feigning ignorance of the NK situation. I'm still interested in the Macavity situation, but that's enough for an

unvote, vote: big_kahunia

- especially on top of bk's noncommittal play.

I'm also very annoyed that the replacer replaced out himself - that's really not a good show - but that's a separate issue.

[SpyreX]

So you assumed that by *L-1*, he meant L-2, and it was only effectively L-1 for you? And therefore that when he unvoted, I was three off?

Since I hadn't seen a wave of votes, yea.

---

My role is very ambiguous - hence the think, but not know.

[Seol]

Seol, can you tell me who you think is scummy at this point with maybe a little short reasoning. (Be as long as you want -- I just mean for my sake I don't need you to do a lot of work for it if you don't have time or motivation).

I'm sure spyrex is up there, but who else are you suspicious of?

SpyreX is of course out in front by quite a way.

Iecerint is tripping some alarms: I don't like how he's buddying up to you, and there have been a few times where I've felt he's trying to engineer arguments between two parties. That could be him just trying to clarify people's positions, but there's been a slight vibe of puppeteering.

My position on you has mellowed: I worked out exactly what it was about your approach that was getting my back up. It wasn't so much the aggression as much as the feel of needing to assert control over proceedings. Looking back, I can see that it's something that's happened (ie, it's given me that impression) consistently in the game when you get into an involved one-on-one argument, and I'm inclined to put it as null, and a clash of personalities thing.

SC: I'm less defensive of him now than before, due in no small part to Iecerint's 500. I still think the reason SC gave is not in and of itself scummy, but looking back he did shirk away from it quite quickly (I remember him defending his position, but on review that was mostly d2 not d1). I don't like his parrot-like repetition of "anti-information" d1 and early d2, trying to get us speculating on the setup, and his reasons for attacking you are mostly baloney. I think I'd put SC as my #2 suspect: I still don't agree that your ties-to-Boxman argument carries much weight, but there's enough other stuff out there that I'm uncomfortable with, prinicipally his position iro you.

Macavity is bad at logic, and I'm unconvinced by his thought process overall. Could go either way.

Konowa I don't have an impression of at all. Need to hear more from him: nothing he's said strikes me as objectionable, but he's not been nearly active enough.

Percy gives me good vibes, my personal top town.

Seol, the main reason you gave for voting bigK was that you thought his mix-up about the night actions was a fabrication. This is a WIFOM reason, one that I don't think is very good from ANYONE, and one that I see as particularly out of character for you. You seem very logical, so this does not seem like a reason you would put much weight on. I cannot see why that was compelling enough for you to put your vote there, especially when you were about to get a better read on the player slot by reading posts by spyrex.

I know we've talked on this issue, but I don't think you've defended why this was a compelling reason to vote bigK. Do you disagree that it's WIFOM?

WIFOM has two definitions I see used regularly: one where people defend actions using reasoning along the lines of "were I scum, I would not do X, therefore as I did X I am not scum", and one where one compares two equal likelihood outcomes and reasons into it far further than makes logical sense. I'm assuming you're referring to the second: I don't think it's WIFOM there, because I don't think they're equal probabilities; far from it. Given his posting history, the focus of the day up to that point, and a very-difficult-to-quantify

feel

to his posts, I don't believe it being a mistake is plausible. And of course, if it's deliberate, b_k is scum.

I disagree with your contention it is only responsible to hold off on action until the replacement posts, so there's no "especially" as far as I'm concerned.

[elvis_knits]

You know, I did think BK was scummy for not contributing and such. But spyrex has seemed town to me.

Seol, if bigK had never existed, and you were only looking at spyrex, would you still feel the same way? I mean, I'm sure it's a bit hard to say since he's voting you and you don't agree with his reasoning, but I'd just like to know what you think.

[Seol]

So you assumed that by *L-1*, he meant L-2, and it was only effectively L-1 for you? And therefore that when he unvoted, I was three off?

Since I hadn't seen a wave of votes, yea.

You assumed that L-1 meant L-2 (instead of, I dunno,

what it said

), on the basis that the comment was aimed exclusively at you, and holding a double-vote you didn't think to check the vote-count just to make sure?

My role is very ambiguous - hence the think, but not know.

Y'know, it really feels like you're making this up as you go along.

PPE:

You know, I did think BK was scummy for not contributing and such. But spyrex has seemed town to me.

Seol, if bigK had never existed, and you were only looking at spyrex, would you still feel the same way? I mean, I'm sure it's a bit hard to say since he's voting you and you don't agree with his reasoning, but I'd just like to know what you think.

Yes, I'd still feel the same way. The vote on b_k was reasonable strength for early day 2 but it's not the main reason I suspect Spyre. It's possible OMGUS factors into it slightly, but he's using some hella sketchy reasoning here (for that matter though, his attack on me has no more substance than a contrived series of dubious assumptions to support a counter-attack) and his posts over the last two or three pages are - well, I'm surprised nobody else finds them as ridiculous as me.

[StrangerCoug]

SC, I had thought SX was still voting Seol when I voted Seol, but it looks like he'd switched to Percy. That's my mistake, but why do you think it's scummy? It made a quicklynch on Seol less likely rather than more, if anything.

I missed where he said that it wasn't a secret hammer because he accounted for an unvote. Apologies, but that we should keep an eye on SpyreX still stands.

Being "A doublevoter" is not my role.

However, I think the second vote is a function of my role.

----

And the doublevoter is a function of alignment-related roles. I don't see a lot of mini's with town rolecops, nor do I think I've (ever?) seen a mini with a scum doublevoter). I clearly say this doesn't absolve me from being the mystical SK, but.

Help my poor brain make sense of this please. You are not a doublevoter, but you believe the second vote is a function of your role. How so?

[Iecerint]

Hey, those posts were largely me arguing with him. I find them silly, too. <_<

[elvis_knits]

Well, I don't know about him being ridiculous.

However, the stuff Spyrex is saying about his role is not making me feel very good about him.

He claims he didn't know he is a double voter, even though the behavior of his predecessors suggests they did know and possibly were being careful or wanted to keep it a secret. Also, saying his role is ambiguous makes me suspicious too. I don't think this is a bastard mod game, and I can't really think of roles that are ambiguous. I'm getting a little afraid here. It seems like a convenient excuse.

[SpyreX]

If I REALLY need to claim my role to make all this madness go away I will.

I am Benjamin Button. I age backwards. It SAYS I am a VT but says as I grow younger things may happen.

Hence, the doublevoting today I assume.

Also hence my comment on a rolecop probably not being here since they would have got VT on me and that simply isn't the case.

[elvis_knits]

Interesting. I find that believable. But Drake doesn't PM you to tell you when your abilities change?

[StrangerCoug]

That is one weird role. Hmm...

[Percy]

As you've all probably figured out, I read Iecerint putting Seol at L-1, unvoting, and then SpyreX putting his double vote on Seol, which made a lynch in my mind. So I was wrong.

BUT.

SpyreX said he saw Iecerint's unvote, but Iecerint said previously that his vote made it L-1. If SpyreX also checked the vote count, then he would have known that Iecerint's unvote was irrelevant, and even without the unvote SpyreX would have been putting Seol at L-1. Now he says:

When Ice said *L-1* I assumed that was *'d because my vote would be the hammer.

...
I seriously do not buy it. Here it is in context:

This puts Seol at *L-1*. Unless EK changes her mind (give her a post to do so), I would support a claim from Seol.

I see no reason why you would assume *L-1* means "L-2 for everyone except SpyreX".

(I also would expect a doublevoter to be more careful with checking votecounts before voting, but that's independent of alignment and just goes to show that SpyreX is careless.)

SC didn't comment on the whole debacle. He

also

didn't give his scumlist. What he said was this:

He misrepresented you by saying you said that if Boxman were town, it follows that Netopalis would be scum. It didn't necessarily, and I didn't interpret anything you said as such. I'm not going to repeat what you said ten million times.

This was in answer to my question about his vote on ML. Now out of the entire game so far, SC is voting because of one attack on me - and I'm not even sold that it was scummy. It might be opportunistic scum trying to push my wagon, but I don't think introducing

decidable

questions (i.e. direct reference to propositional logic) would be the way to do it. I think at this point in the game it's a pretty minor excuse to vote anyone. I would expect scum to react more like SpyreX, in the "I don't care about logic or what you said, it's scummy, la la la, the end".

It also begs the question - why not ScumpyreX, who has been forwarding the same argument, and even more aggressively?

And just so we're clear and this doesn't come up again tomorrow - I think there is an alignment link between SpyreX and StrangerCoug, in that I think at least one is scum, probably both. I think they have been avoiding each other, giving each other a lot of latitude and selecting issues to decrease exposure of the other player. There are numerous inconsistencies between their approach to each other and their approach to the rest of the players in this game. For example, the ML vote from SC is one for SC, and SpyreX's attitude towards SC is fairly telling if you look at him in ISO (check the thought flow between ISO 2, the "where did SC go?" in ISO 10, then on to ISO 11 and finishing at ISO 13. And just for laughs, remember when he shut down E_K vs. SC? I've already commented on that, but in case you missed it here it is.)

@Seol: Are you arguing that one of your motivations for switching to Netopalis was to prevent Boxman from being forced to claim too?

I suppose that follows, but it wasn't part of my thought process. I'm very much opposed to wagon-to-claim as an information-gathering approach day 1, so when someone claims, I view that as a decision point: lynch or no. But more than that, I saw the claim as making me much more comfortable with a Neto lynch, partly because of the reduced exposure.

That question of mine was particularly pointed, and I get townvibes from the response - I would expect scum to be more jumpy/aggressive.

Also hence my comment on a rolecop probably not being here since they would have got VT on me and that simply isn't the case.

...or you're trying to dissuade a rolecop from targetting you. If the role is ambiguous enough so that you don't even know what your powers are, how can you say definitively that a rolecop would get VT if they targetted you?

Still, SpyreX's claim is somewhat confirmable. If he gets new powers tomorrow that weren't here today, then we can more easily determine whether he's making stuff up as he goes along or whether this is somehow tied to his role. I still think it's independent of alignment, but I'm willing to wait until tomorrow until we have more information - we could catch him in his lies or perhaps verify that he's telling the truth.

So right now I think SC is scum and needs to die.

Unvote, Vote: StrangerCoug

. This is for a total of three votes on StrangerCoug which puts him at L-2.

I'm not so hot about the absent-Konowa and ML being my company on this wagon, so:

@Konowa

: Why is SC scum?

@MacavityLock

: I've read through your posts and it seems like you're voting SC for two reasons - that he used "Major HoS" which is (apparently) a metascumtell, and you didn't like his reasons for voting Neto. Did I miss something? Would you be willing to lynch SC for these tells alone?

[Iecerint]

SX's role -- assuming that he's not totally lying about it, because then we could easily find out by the method Percy suggests -- is what I would expect for a 3rd party role, which makes him a good candidate for the SK. Maybe he gets bonus powers nightly. The missing piece of the puzzle is his link to SC.

[StrangerCoug]

SC didn't comment on the whole debacle. He

also

didn't give his scumlist. What he said was this:

He misrepresented you by saying you said that if Boxman were town, it follows that Netopalis would be scum. It didn't necessarily, and I didn't interpret anything you said as such. I'm not going to repeat what you said ten million times.

This was in answer to my question about his vote on ML. Now out of the entire game so far, SC is voting because of one attack on me - and I'm not even sold that it was scummy. It might be opportunistic scum trying to push my wagon, but I don't think introducing

decidable

questions (i.e. direct reference to propositional logic) would be the way to do it. I think at this point in the game it's a pretty minor excuse to vote anyone.

Why would I push your wagon by siding with you in an argument, assuming I interpreted your post correctly? This makes no sense whatsoever.

Right now I believe SpyreX, MacavityLock, and Iecerint to be scum. elvis_knits is off my top three for now.

I would expect scum to react more like SpyreX, in the "I don't care about logic or what you said, it's scummy, la la la, the end".

I personally would expect scum to act unpredictably. You cannot assume that I am going to say "I don't care about logic or what you said, it's scummy, la la la, the end," if you don't mind me using your exact quote, regardless of my alignment.

The way you word this also refutes your thinking that I am scummy.

Granted, SpyreX and I have been relatively quiet about each other. SpyreX does read as if he's buddying up to me, and I've only given a lot of focus on SpyreX just a little while ago.

[SpyreX]

Ohh this game.

We've got a deadline coming up. I don't want all this harangue.

So, I'll put my money where my mouth is: I want the lynch to be Seol or me today.

If I flip town, I absolutely want Percy and Seol lynched asap.

If you don't lynch me and I survive tomorrow and I have ANY abilities that I can use to deal with them (I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a dayvig) I'm going to use it.

----

Just to be clear on the key things:

1.) I have absolutely NO idea what my role is going to do tomorrow. I don't know if its going to be new prizes, additional prizes, no prizes, etc.

2.) There is absolutely NO way that wagon shift day 1 was all town. None.

3.) I'm saying lynch Seol because of #2, but if that weren't to exist I would be pushing absolutely hard for a percy lynch. Especially now we're getting the "Ohh yea he's totally scum but lets not lynch him" business.

I am serious about this. Lynch me if that's what it takes.

I am absolutely directing power roles if they have the ability to kill to take care of those two.

[SpyreX]

Further, there are only three real scenarios I could see SC scum and I don't find any of them ALL that likely:

1.) It was a bus for town cred (unlikely considering the timing and rationale for his vote)
2.) The scum have fakeclaims including abilities (because driver isn't going to be a save kind of role)
3.) The scum can daytalk and had coordinated this (unlikely because of what happened / who jumped wagons)

[StrangerCoug]

Why do you have a death wish, SpyreX?

[Iecerint]

More like he desperately doesn't want us to kill you. Another possibility is that he's SK who thinks Seol is scum. Maybe he's hoping tilting the wagon Seol's way will clear him if he's right.

[SpyreX]

Or with a scum getting killed N1 a 1-1 to end this whole business and get things moving even with my mislynch should generate enough damn information to make it worthwhile.

No way in hell I'm making it to endgame unless an SK is killed before then. That's pretty straightforward. And after these whole shenanigans I dont see me getting NK'd any time soon. So, I'll bite the bullet if it is what it takes.

And yea I'm taking a gamble on SC being town but the alternative doesn't add up. Sometimes you've gotta roll the hard six afterall. Further, an SC lynch means that tomorrow is going to be more of the same in regards to this. Which isn't helpful.

Now, does this mean I'm laying down and playing dead? Hell no. I'd much rather lynch Seol and if you want me gone you're gonna have to do it your damn selves.

So, yea.