Flash Mafia: You won!

[crypto]

answer

[crypto]

for another player?

[SpyreX]

:headdesk:

There are no words.

[Green Crayons]

Because that was a loaded question that excreted a turd ball of bad logic all over the exceptionally valid case against Ray.

Any answer given to that question is going to be faulty because it's based off of the flawed notion that somehow a vanilla claim is a reasonable excuse. If you want to get a response from a player maybe you should frame the question in such a way that doesn't crap over logic and force them to respond within the framework of the flawed paradigm you're setting up in the question itself.

[mikeburnfire]

Oh, yay. crypto's posts now feature 90% less content.

[SpyreX]

....

Ray, you down for getting lynched under the caveat that if you flip town that means a vig shoots one of GC and MBF and if they are scum the other dies?

Because holy hell in a handbasket.

[RayFrost]

....

Ray, you down for getting lynched under the caveat that if you flip town that means a vig shoots one of GC and MBF and if they are scum the other dies?

Because holy hell in a handbasket.

Sure.

[crypto]

Oh, yay. crypto's posts now feature 90% less content.

No, each one was part of a pertinent question, making each include 100% content. I win.

Green Crayons, I care less about Mafia theory answers than about the substance of the post.

[SpyreX]

Haha I just checked the wagons (woosh) nevermind that for the minute.

Let it be known, though.

[mykonian]

Vote count

A girl on the internet(3): Crypto, Porochaz, Snow_Bunny
Snow_bunny(2): Roflcopter, Rayfrost
Rayfrost(1): Green Crayons
Porochaz(1): A girl on the internet
Mikeburnfire(1): Spyrex
Pomegranate(1): Populartajo
crypto(1): Elvis_knits

Not voting (3): Snow white, Mikeburnfire, Pomegranate.

with 13 players, it is 7 to lynch

crypto, please don't do that again

[Green Crayons]

Green Crayons, I care less about Mafia theory answers than about the substance of the post.

Uh, the general basis of this situation (that is: a question based off of a flawed premise) has absolutely nothing to do with mafia theory - other than scumbags and townies forgetting to take their common sense pills do it. Furthermore, the very fact that it warps the framework for how the response to that question is made means it very much has to do with the substance of the post. So: Surprise! You should care a whole lot about the fact that you're putting forward bad questions in order to gauge reactions, since the reactions are going to be voided by the fact that the questions are garbage.

The heart of my issue with your question isn't about some highfalutin theory. It's about the fact that you're using a completely unfounded notion (that a D1 vanilla claim clears a laundry list of scummy behavior) to pose a question to another player, which simultaneously 1. unjustly discredits the suspicions of Ray's behavior and 2. forces any answer to your question to be made within the flawed confines of your paradigm, thus validating your misconceptions without being able to call them out for the horrible bag of logic fail that they are.

Just because your flawed premise is a misconception somehow related to mafia doesn't mean you can just handwave it away as "Mafia theory." Wake up, buttercup. We're playing mafia.

[Pomegranate]

I will get to this game later tonight or tomorrow. My head is full right now, so it's hard to soak up this jumble of posts.

[crypto]

(that a D1 vanilla claim clears a laundry list of scummy behavior)

All right, wise guy, point out where I take this stance.

[Snow_Bunny]

Double posting.

Why did you want to lynch Ray after his vanilla townie claim?

Here's a valid reason: Because a vanilla townie claim isn't a get-out-of-a-lynch-for-free card. Mafia have been known to claim everything - up to and including vanilla townie. Your caveat of asking why someone would want to lynch Ray after the vanilla claim artificially inflates that claim as a cause to ignore the whole slew of issues found with Ray's play. No claim in the world is an excuse as to Ray's initial suspicious behavior. Even more staggering is the notion that somehow you're suggesting that his claim excuses his reaction to his scummy behavior being pointed out: You know, his outright side-stepping of the points brought against him, his shifting of his positions in order to paint himself in a better light, his strawman tactics to avoid the real issues and - when you finally get some sort of answer out of him - his horrifically bad excuses.

Ray's play has been scummy through and through. I also think it's interesting that plenty of people have said that there has been a good case made against Ray, and in light of his refusal to answer the points made against him the town is rewarding his behavior by taking the pressure off of him.

^That.

In fact, you believing the claim such as it is, ignoring his previous behaviour doesn't look good. When Ray flips scum, I'll be looking for you.

[crypto]

Unvote. Vote: Snow_Bunny.

Answer my other question.

[crypto]

Also, point out where I state that believe his claim.

Actually, no, I have a better idea: Read the thread.

[Green Crayons]

crypto: It's in the question itself. It's the loaded grounding upon which the question is being asked. The fact that you wanted to know why Bunny still wanted to Ray lynch beyond Certain Point X means Certain Point X has some serious weight behind it. In terms of the question as you framed it, Certain Point X was Ray's vanilla claim.

The question gave Ray's vanilla claim undue weight as a serious cause as not to continue to pursue a Ray lynch.

[SpyreX]

That's not the issue I have with that business.

It's the attitude around the case that is truly mind blowing.

For, see, the case on Ray is IRONCLAD. It is, in fact, the obelisk and we are to be the simians milling about beating our bones until we see the light of it.

It is, so strong, that asking a question to another player must be instantly refuted.

Yet, of course, I don't really remember seeing a whole lot of flack on the wagoners that fled.

[Green Crayons]

Actually, no, I have a better idea: Read the thread.

I'm curious to what specifically you're referencing that one should glean from a reread of the thread. You're making this demand to read the thread in response to assessing your actions, so I'm assuming you want us to look at your attitude towards Ray?

At best I've seen from you some verbal commitment to the Ray lynch, but never a vote. What's interesting is that in the midst of you being more than happy to try to drum up pressure for a girl wagon (which you later admitted to as actually being pretty insubstantial), you actually outright admitted that the Ray voting was a better path to follow. But did a vote ever actually surface? Nope, only lip service. Your actions - and lack thereof - speak volumes.

That's not the issue I have with that business.

It's the attitude around the case that is truly mind blowing.

For, see, the case on Ray is IRONCLAD. It is, in fact, the obelisk and we are to be the simians milling about beating our bones until we see the light of it.

So far the case against Ray is IRONCLAD because

Ray has outright refused to respond to the majority of the points against him

. His misdirection and silence has allowed him to elude being pinned down on anything because his responses are slimier than a festering pool of toxic goo.

But that's not to mention that there's the fact that four different players (mike, crytpo, elvis, myself) have voiced independent and specific instances of his play that they take issue with, while another set of players (rolf, pom and poro) have actually agreed with these suspicions as very reasonable suspicions and good catches of scummy play and, still,

Ray has outright refused to respond to the majority of the points against him

.

It is, so strong, that asking a question to another player must be instantly refuted.

If crypto didn't ask a loaded question based off of flawed logic which presupposed that logic to be sound and accurate, then I wouldn't have interrupted. If he asked, "Why do you still want to lynch Ray?" that would have been fine. In fact, I would love for Bunny to answer that question, especially in light of her vote not being on Ray. But if anyone asks a loaded question that confines the answer to consider a false notion to be true - especially if it has the propensity to negatively influence a valid line of suspicion - I'm going to call them out on it.

Yet, of course, I don't really remember seeing a whole lot of flack on the wagoners that fled.

Days ebb and flow. What matters is the end result and letting strands of conversation deviate from a solid bet is beneficial for the later days. Also: sometimes it's best to let these things marinate so when Ray flips scum we can see how people acted during the lull in his march to the gallows.

[mikeburnfire]

Ray, you down for getting lynched under the caveat that if you flip town that means a vig shoots one of GC and MBF and if they are scum the other dies?

Sure.

What. The only player you've gone after all game is Snow Bunny, you've said that Iseem town to you, you haven't ever

mentioned

Green Cryaons, but yet, you're willing to die as long either me or GC dies next?

I'm calling bullshit. If you were really a townie then you wouldn't want to sacrifice yourself so that people you think are town get lynched too.

vote: Rayfrost

Let's get this wagon back up again.

[populartajo]

Sigh, me no likes being ignored.

Case on Plum.
iso 2 and iso 3: after mbd attacks frost, spyrex and pom, she defends weakly with a)I didnt know my vote was the third and b)yeah mufasa acted strange but not scummy, but scum also try to avoid conmotion, but this its wifom, so yeah, not a solid stance. Also, yeah, that change of intensity regarding mbf's towniness is still weird.

iso 4 through 8 are total active lurking.

iso 9 is the "I think ray is scum and rolf is his scumpartner, so I guess Ill vote rolf" wtfpost. Pom is definitely not thinking very much in who she is voting.

iso 10 is a quick response due to elvis and rolf pressure. Pom unvotes rolf and votes ray. I mean, why would I trust someone I just called scum?

iso 13 is a yeah, ray claim. Pom definitely adds some pressure to the wagon. Why is this important? See below.

iso 16 is still Pom supporting the wagon supporting the green crayons case and the terrible defense point.

But iso 18 is bye ray, hi spyrex. Notice the unvote and the posterior HoS. Why the unvote? Did Ray convince you he was town? Why the Spyrex HoS? Those posts were not even scummy...

iso 19 through 23. No more mention of ray. Not even a why. So what do I think? Pom pushed hard for a Ray wagon until it dissolved. Does she seem like a player that really thought ray was scum? Definitely not.

So yeah, wagon, pretty, please?

[RayFrost]

Ray, you down for getting lynched under the caveat that if you flip town that means a vig shoots one of GC and MBF and if they are scum the other dies?

Sure.

What. The only player you've gone after all game is Snow Bunny, you've said that Iseem town to you, you haven't ever

mentioned

Green Cryaons, but yet, you're willing to die as long either me or GC dies next?

I'm calling bullshit. If you were really a townie then you wouldn't want to sacrifice yourself so that people you think are town get lynched too.

vote: Rayfrost

Let's get this wagon back up again.

I seemed to have not been clear:

I'm fine with being lynched.

I don't really agree with the vig shooting one of you stuff.

[RayFrost]

Oh, and I'd prefer the vig do their own thing, assuming they exist.

[RayFrost]

Quick list of reads, since I'm gonna die:

scum:

snow bunny - see previous posts

tajo - didn't post much and comes in when peole call 'im out ees suspicious

snow white - where is she?

neutral:

GC - GC has cranked up the TV and it's kinda distracting meh from getting a read

crypto - crypto is somebody that I don't get good reads on, so yeah.

AGOTI - AGOTI is hard to read - posting style is contrived, but is obv an alt. says so and so is town without really giving much in the way of why, etc, etc

town:

MBF - see previous reasoning

Syrex - seems logical and stuff

rofl - meta says he's town

[crypto]

crypto: It's in the question itself. It's the loaded grounding upon which the question is being asked. The fact that you wanted to know why Bunny still wanted to Ray lynch beyond Certain Point X means Certain Point X has some serious weight behind it. In terms of the question as you framed it, Certain Point X was Ray's vanilla claim.

The question gave Ray's vanilla claim undue weight as a serious cause as not to continue to pursue a Ray lynch.

(Bangs head on keyboard.) No. It's not about what I think of Ray before/after his claim. It's about the motives behind Snow_Bunny's continued obsession with Ray's lynch. Your logical leap from "Certain Point X has weight behind it" to "Certain Point X has weight behind it, therefore I believe Lead-Up Case to Certain Point X" loses all merit is unreal.