Mafia 105 - Caught in the Crossfire (Game Over)

[hiphop]

Vote Count, Day 4

hiphop ( 0 )
shotty to the body ( 0 )
fhqwhgads ( 0 )
hitogoroshi ( 0 )
Idiotking ( 0 )
Xylthixlm ( 0 )
Pads ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 0 )
Zakeri ( 0 )
RedCoyote ( 1 ) - hiphop
Sotty7 ( 0 )
SpyreX ( 0 )
Unvote ( 11 ) - zakeri - hitogoroshi - Xylthixlm - Shotty to the Body - RedCoyote - idiotking - fhqwhgads - SpyreX - Pads - popsofctown - Sotty7
Total Votes ( 12 )

With 12 alive, 7 needed to reach a majority.
Deadline is December 18th at 4:30pm EST

idk- look at his role pm. It doesn't say he is insane or sane. The mod revealed that on his death. Also in the rules:

5. If included, cops will

not

be informed of sanity but will be limited to Insane or Sane. A cop's sanity will be determined by a coinflip on random.org.

Seriously guys. We have a possible sk and a guaranteed mafia mason out there. We can't get sidetracked.

[hiphop]

here is his pm. Tell me where the mod told him he was sane

Cop PM

You are a Town Cop. You win when the town wins. The town wins by eliminating all anti-town forces (as example, this includes SKs, Mafia, Cult but does not include Lynchers, Jesters, Survivors).

Every night you attempt to investigate one player. If you are sane, Mafia come up as Guilty. Town come up as innocent. Third parties come up as innocent. Godfathers come up as Innocent. Millers come up as Guilty. Traitors come up as guilty. If you are insane, ALL of these are reversed.

You have a randomly chosen 50/50 chance (using random.org) of being Sane or being Insane.

Please note the plurality voting, lynch + 24 hours lynch rules. Also, take note of the 500 word limit.

Confirm in thread

[Shotty to the Body]

hiphop's arguments make sense. There is no way to tell whether he was insane or sane and both are equally useful, you just need to figure out which you are. Once he realized charter was scum and he had a town result on him he knew he was insane and that a scum result on RC meant innocent.

[Shotty to the Body]

What I don't see is why we should vote for RC if rofl had an innocent on him, can you explain that hiphop?

[Shotty to the Body]

I guess my main problem with your earlier explanation was that I don't assume an anti-town player killed charter. I could see the real vig killing him at that point if he believed he was fake-claiming.

[hiphop]

No shotty. Tell me. Why did everybody unvote him? Did they not believe his claim? I had my doubts, but I found that he would die anyways. If somebody thought he was faking, why did they not keep their vote on him, and voice their opinion. The only reason is because the people who were scum, wanted to go with the flow. Also there can be two vigs. So the real vig, if there is one, couldn't have known if charter was faking or not. So, yes, he had to of been killed by an sk. Let me ask you this question, If you were the vig( even though if it is after the fact), would you have killed charter? If yes, why didn't you voice your opinion ealier? I believe your answer to his claim was a simple unvote.

To everybody- If you don't like my idea, why are you sitting on your hands and complaining about my idea, (which is pretty logical) and not giving us your own?

[Shotty to the Body]

No shotty. Tell me. Why did everybody unvote him? Did they not believe his claim? I had my doubts, but I found that he would die anyways. If somebody thought he was faking, why did they not keep their vote on him, and voice their opinion. The only reason is because the people who were scum, wanted to go with the flow. Also there can be two vigs. So the real vig, if there is one, couldn't have known if charter was faking or not. So, yes, he had to of been killed by an sk. Let me ask you this question, If you were the vig( even though if it is after the fact), would you have killed charter? If yes, why didn't you voice your opinion ealier? I believe your answer to his claim was a simple unvote.

To everybody- If you don't like my idea, why are you sitting on your hands and complaining about my idea, (which is pretty logical) and not giving us your own?

The other vig(il) would have extra info based on his kills, there could be a contradiction there, or perhaps a back-up vig(il?) was activated when charter switched roles and when he continued to claim vig(il) he knew charter was lying. I didn't have any info to the contrary and I didn't suspect such a thing until he was killed. Why would the other vig risk outting himself by continuing to pressure a player he was going to shoot? Since it is pretty apparent we have one scum-faction at this point cross-fire implies to me that each faction: scum, town, and SK, had a kill and since charter was a traitor he wasn't ours so the town has a real vig somewhere imo.

[hiphop]

Some clarification to charter's role: Charter was a traitor vigilante who could shoot each night until recruited but the mafia did not know who he was and he did not know who the mafia was (both were informed of the others' existence but not who). He was recruited by the Mafia one night, became a Mafia Goon but was actually the backup Roleblocker, so with imaginality dead, charter became the roleblocker.

This tells me that he knew he was a traitor. It also tells me that he was a vigilante, which means he killed people. Why would he claim to kill people that he didn't kill. If he did, he was begging to be nk'd or dk'd. Therefore he had to kill who he said he did. That would mean that,

if

there was a real vig, he wouldn't know if charter was telling the truth or lying. Why can't you accept the fact that it is possible that charter was killed by an sk?

mod: is it possible to see charter's role pm, for clarification purposes?

Who said there had to be a backup vig? If there was one, how would he know if charter was one or not?

How would the real vig out himself by pressuring? It is a town's job to do that. Besides, wouldn't he want to be sure of his choice?

Since it is pretty apparent we have one scum-faction at this point cross-fire implies to me that each faction: scum, town, and SK, had a kill and since charter was a traitor he wasn't ours so the town has a real vig somewhere imo.

I am sorry, are you the mod? It clearly states in the rules

b. This game does not HAVE to have any other roles other than Townies and Mafia.

Therefore, the town does not have to have a real vig. We can kill through the lynch.

So, who do you believe is scum, and why are you not doing something about it?

[Shotty to the Body]

All the things you said apply to your argument. Are you the mod? Why does there have to be another SK? When did you read charter's mind and confirm he told the truth about his kill targets? Considering he GOT DAYKILLED maybe he was begging for it. The vig doesn't need to draw attention to himself by pressuring charter when everyone else is hopping off. Last time I checked pushing a claimed vig was scummy and he would've been fucking himself by doing so, unless he wants to explain his inside info thereby outing himself, instead he lays back and takes a shot without drawing attention. I still don't see how any of this proves that RC killed charter even if you accept a SK killed him. Mainly I'm not confirmed on anyone yet because I have a paper I just finished due tomorrow, a final tomorrow, a test the day after, and I don't have time to do a full re-read of rofl to determine my next move.

[hiphop]

There must be an sk or vig. It has to be one or the other, and I think sk makes more sense. I believe rc is that sk.

[Shotty to the Body]

Your reasoning doesn't add up, you say RC-SK wants to kill charter because rofl directs charter to shoot RC. Thanks to Rayfrost's death we have a SK role PM.

You are immune from being shot if there are 13 or more players left alive.* Note: you may still be lynched!
If there are 12 and under players alive, you wear a bulletproof vest that can take one bullet.

Why would one SK be bullet-proof and one not be, that doesn't make any sense. The idea of two SKs doesn't make sense to start with for me for several reasons, but one way or the other I can't see one SK being bulletproof and one not in a normal game, the roles should be the same even if there are two. We were well above 13 players before the dayvig on charter so what does RC gain by day-killing him instead of a NK that can be passed off as the mafia kill on a claimed vig? Even if charter was slain by a second SK I don't see any conclusive evidence pointing to RC. You mention RC's "earlier play" please point out where he acts like an SK.

[fhqwhgads]

With this flip, I'm really going to give fhq some town credit.

Buddying up with the 'confirmed' townie?

You guys are wrong Rc is the confirmed town.

Hmm, nice catch, but at best I think nothing is for certain. Neither RC or me can be considered 'confirmed'.

Does this make sense? However rc can still be an sk or the godfather. And right now he looks very much like an sk. vote rc

Wait, what? This looks so deliberate, I might even think you're trying to bait people.

It may be wifom, but it is very much logical.

Oxymoronic statement is oxymoronic.

But the flip was for that he was a sane cop. Why would he automatically think he was insane?

Am I missing something here?

This might have been answered, but here is my take: He didn't KNOW if he was sane or not. So he had to rely on reads to decide which one was scum or not. Regardless, if one of the two was killed, he could use the flip to determine his sanity.

There must be an sk or vig. It has to be one or the other, and I think sk makes more sense. I believe rc is that sk.

We already had one SK and one Vig. Why do you believe so sternly that one is prevalent over the other?

I'm backing away from RC-scum for now, due to the insinuation that RC came up innocent. Also I believe Xyl is town. Which still leaves IK and hip-hop. Hiphop's strange vote for someone he believes has been investigated as vanilla by a sane cop and his SK theory is weird, to say the least.

Vote hiphop

[Zakeri]

If you were an sk and rofl had told charter that you are to be killed tonight, what would you do?

If you were an SK and rofl had told charter that someone else is to be killed tonight, what would you do?

You're voting for a cop confirmed innocent because between the cop's innocent and guilty, the guilty died instead.

Vote: Hiphop

On SK vs. Vig: In my experience in these games, there should be 6 scum. four are down, so there's either two mafia and a vig, or one mafia and one SK. If there's seven scum this game, then there's no real alternative to two scum and an SK.

I don't see why we should assume the non-mafia shooter is a vig. All signs around Charter's death points to scum-based shooting. More importantly, if we're talking about double roles, why would vigilante be more likely than SK?

[Xylthixlm]

Right now hiphop is voting the person in the game who, based on role info, is least likely to be scum.

[zoraster]

mod: is it possible to see charter's role pm, for clarification purposes?

I have clarified as much as I can in the kill post. If you have something specific you're confused about with that clarification, let me know.

[Shotty to the Body]

I don't see why we should assume the non-mafia shooter is a vig. All signs around Charter's death points to scum-based shooting. More importantly, if we're talking about double roles, why would vigilante be more likely than SK?

Vigs can have back-ups, and besides charter was a traitor, that's scum aligned, it would make sense to me given the flavor we have a genuine town vig. The whole point of an SK is the lone-killer factor, two doesn't make any sense.

@mod: A clarification about charter I need is whether he won with scum even if he wasn't recruited. If that is allowed I would like to know.

[zoraster]

@mod: A clarification about charter I need is whether he won with scum even if he wasn't recruited. If that is allowed I would like to know.

Yes, he won whether recruited or not.

[Sotty7]

Sotty- what are you waiting for?

Also based on day 2- yes, it is conceivable that he targeted elvis, but I have to take into accout that he voted rc

after

charter claimed, and he unvoted rc charter

after

charter flipped. Why else would he do this? I asked him why twice, yet he never answered. Don't you think it is conceivable that he didn't answer me, because he didn't want to reveal his role.

As for rc- Why do you think I was voted for him day two and day three? Did I not express myself when I voted? He doesn't have many posts day one, look at his posts and decide for yourself. Based on rc's iso, what do you think?

Who said I was waiting for something?

Rolf could have voted and unvoted Red because he was his next suspect after charter and he believed the claim. Don't you think it is conceivable that Rolf just ignored you?

I have ISO'ed you Hip Hop and your points on Red seem to come out of nowhere. You make a lot of them while your vote is on me for example. I want to know why you think he is the SK, putting the burden of proof on me is a stretch.

Just give me the main points of your case that don't involve Rolf's hypoinvestigation.

I don't think RC was one of the investigations. Early in D3 roflcopter voted for RC as well as called for him to be vigged/NK'd. Only after the charter flip did he decide RC had to be town.

So... he had opposite results on RC and charter, and thought that RC was scum and charter was town. When charter came up scum he realized that he had them backwards.

Who do you think he investigated night one?

Been reading though the game and I think IK might actually be town. He had a spat with Elvis on day one when she said she wasn't impressed with his CSL vote. Then on day two he was the second vote on her next to Vi. The early vote and anylisis of the wagons makes him look town to me. I still think his whole CSL vote and replacement thing looks bad, but I think his good points out weigh that.

@IK:

What do you think of Hip Hop now? A lot of your early posts were about him, do you still find him suspicious?

Also ISO'ed Hip Hop and he reminds me of a friend of mine. Blunt, a little obnoxious at times but he does seem to be rolling his sleeves up trying to hunt the scum. Feels like a genuine effort. My sticking points are his bad cases and the fact he is now voting for Red despite believing that Rolf had an innocent on him. I think things will be a bit clearer once I ISO red as well.

With that done Zak and Hito are my top two suspects right now. I need to ISO both but Hito's vote for Ray felt like he was latching on anything that wasn't him at the time. Really need a closer look. Zak because he hasn't been getting involved really. That needs to change.

[Shotty to the Body]

@mod: A clarification about charter I need is whether he won with scum even if he wasn't recruited. If that is allowed I would like to know.

Yes, he won whether recruited or not.

So looking at this charter wasn't even a real vig for us, he was an extra scum-kill until he was recruited, so we haven't seen a town-aligned vig yet. My money is on the back-up activating when charter was recruited and him killing charter for lying.

[SpyreX]

Now, hiphop is unquestionably crazy in his logic for voting RC but I'm not seeing how that makes him more likely to be scum. In fact, his whole PLAY this day sans that vote is the most townie I've seen him this game.

Enough that, duh, I am not down with a hiphop lynch today OR an RC lynch.

That said, why in the world is there talk of a backup?

[Xylthixlm]

So looking at this charter wasn't even a real vig for us, he was an extra scum-kill until he was recruited, so we haven't seen a town-aligned vig yet. My money is on the back-up activating when charter was recruited and him killing charter for lying.

This would be even crazier than having a traitor vigilante who becomes a backup mafia roleblocker, and

that

doesn't even belong in a normal game.

[Shotty to the Body]

So looking at this charter wasn't even a real vig for us, he was an extra scum-kill until he was recruited, so we haven't seen a town-aligned vig yet. My money is on the back-up activating when charter was recruited and him killing charter for lying.

This would be even crazier than having a traitor vigilante who becomes a backup mafia roleblocker, and

that

doesn't even belong in a normal game.

Back-up vig is a possible role, it doesn't really matter. The point of this is that I'm 99% sure RC is conf-innocent.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't think RC was one of the investigations. Early in D3 roflcopter voted for RC as well as called for him to be vigged/NK'd. Only after the charter flip did he decide RC had to be town.

So... he had opposite results on RC and charter, and thought that RC was scum and charter was town. When charter came up scum he realized that he had them backwards.

Who do you think he investigated night one?

I don't know. Right at the moment I'm just reading what other people are saying about possible breadcrumbs, rather than looking for them myself.

[Xylthixlm]

So looking at this charter wasn't even a real vig for us, he was an extra scum-kill until he was recruited, so we haven't seen a town-aligned vig yet. My money is on the back-up activating when charter was recruited and him killing charter for lying.

This would be even crazier than having a traitor vigilante who becomes a backup mafia roleblocker, and

that

doesn't even belong in a normal game.

Back-up vig is a possible role, it doesn't really matter. The point of this is that I'm 99% sure RC is conf-innocent.

He's conf-not-mafia, which is plenty good enough.

[Idiotking]

@IK:

What do you think of Hip Hop now? A lot of your early posts were about him, do you still find him suspicious?

I have no idea, to be honest. Originally I thought he was suspicious, but I thought he did pretty well after D2 or so. Now with his absolute determination to brand RC as a SK, though, I don't know.

I also wanted to see if RC could be mafia, but if it's true that he had opposite reads from charter and RC and thought that he was insane, then his reversal means RC almost has to be town. Which means all of my leads from yesterday are shot.

I'm going to go back and reread over hito. Something about him is bothering me, but I don't know if it's his general playstyle or something specific.