Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[AlmasterGM]

Oh damn, I forgot I was good at defending myself.

Vote: Sanjay

lol wtf?

[Sanjay]

Oh, I guess I

accidentally

disabled BBCode for that post.

WHOOPS.

[Sanjay]

Basically I think your reasoning for my lynch is a little silly, AlmasterGM.

[AlmasterGM]

Basically I think your reasoning for my lynch is a little silly, AlmasterGM.

Basically, I think you need to learn to read.

[MordyS]

Yeah, Sanjay -- he didn't just stump for your lynch by any measure of reading comprehension.

[Sanjay]

Oh.

Whoops.

Unfakevote.

[Sanjay]

I'm sorry, AlmasterGM. I skipped to the reasons and I guess I missed what they were reasons for.

I guess I just kind of assumed you were totally wacky? My bad.

The reasoning for investigating me is pretty solid. Thanks for your confidence in my defensive abilities.

Though, personally, all I'll get out of it is greater insight into peanutman's sanity, and I'd rather get more than that, and I think PhaerieM is more of a mystery than me.

[PhaerieM]

This thread needs a healthy sprinkling of Phaerie dust.

Aww. That's cute Although you

did

get my name wrong in your earlier post I am Batgirl! If I knew how to post pics then I would show you what I look like just so you know for sure... I'm Batgirl.

I'm really sorry you guys, I'm finding it really hard to post anything meaningful because I've missed so much. I've had a few issues come up IRL & thus have a *lot* less time to pore over posts & such. You know what would be *extremely* helpful? A Multi-quote button! Seriously, no Mafia site should come without one (I'm hoping maybe I'm just missing it & it's in some obv location that I've yet to notice). If there was one, you can bet you guys would have a manifesto from me sooner rather than later. It's just tough to remember little things you wanted to point out or respond to when you can only quote one thing at a time or have to open two windows of the site & go through the entire thread & copy/paste, put in quote tags for each section, etc.

I'm still very suspicious of Archaebob. I think he's made an effort to come back and play like he did yesterday (once there was sufficient pressure placed on him), but there are things that just don't ring true in what he's posting. I agree that he possibly had a meltdown yesterday when everyone flipped to Socio, and didn't quite know how to pick up the pieces when Day 2 started. HOWEVER: this recent flipping of his stance on Sanjay & Foilist (and by the way, he's been saying all day that he thinks sanjay is scum & in his 'sanjay-is-scum' scenario Foilist is scum too, but then he votes peanut while still continuing on with his sanjay-peanut case? Does he really think there are 3 scum left in a 12 person game with one scum dead?) has given me pause as it seems as if he's actually looking for scum & is ashamed to admit he changed his mind, but will do so in order to catch scum etc etc. It would seem a very townie changing of stance... but this could obviously be a scum move to make us think that as well. I wonder how experienced archae is as scum?

PEANUT: If you *are* the cop, & we don't lynch you or archae today, INVESTIGATE ARCHAEBOB TONIGHT!! Or if you think I'm scummy for asking that, investigate me, but THEN ARCHAEBOB. I was seriously hoping if we had a cop that he would investigate archae night 1, because he was the most vocal and influential all day, at least up until the end. It's dangerous to have players like that in the game without being reasonably sure of their alignment.

A couple of people asked why I said Mordy started looking scummy to me. There were a lot of logical inconsistencies & just plain wrong statements in that multi-post rant Mordy had before I said that, & they struck me as way off. Mordy was someone I'd been pretty convinced of as town before, but those posts really got me looking at him. I will have to go back & read them again in order to give details. Sorry, I just feel kind of lost with so much going on.

Sanjay: I can see where you're coming from with the "Well, what would phaerie-scum be expected to do when zito started the socio wagon, she coudn't very well go back on her stance from before"; this is true. However, why in the world would I have *adopted* that stance from before in the first place as scum? Muffin was free & clear, and you guys were all immersed in the foilist/agm wagon. I could've just gone right along with that, or one of the other fringe cases that was going on. Instead I made a case against the mafia godfather & asked *several* times for your input, asked *several* times for you guys to please go back and read my case & give it some thought. I'm proud of that case, & proud of that lynch. I was overjoyed when you guys finally started jumping on (albeit not for the right reasons, but the end result was the same).

So anyway, still suspicious of archae (investigate!!), need to go back & read Mordy, I'm really not sure about the cruelty/sanjay cases, and I am inclined to believe peanut's cop claim.

I guess that's it for now, if anyone has any questions, let me know. I'll make an effort to post a lot more than I have been, & I apologize again.

[PhaerieM]

Uh, think I missed a page. Or two. Sanjay, why am I a mystery?

[Sanjay]

Uh, think I missed a page. Or two. Sanjay, why am I a mystery?

I guess I just don't understand women

.

Basically, there are some great reasons to think you are town but a few good reasons to be suspicious. I'm just a little wary of you for being the only person suspicious of Muffin on the Muffin lynch. And while I agree that it would be poor mafia play to have taken the positions you did, you might not have anticipated us moving away from the foilist13 or AlmasterGM decision. And I guess during twilight you made a kind of big show of being excited and being unsure how Muffin was going to flip, which is something I've done as scum so it made me go, hm...

And you are also a mystery because you haven't posted as much so it is harder to get a read on you.

I guess this post looks a little weird if you are scum though.

[Sanjay]

I guess by trying to get the investigation elsewhere I'm just making it more likely I'm going to be investigated, but I'd really rather someone else be investigated. The only way I'm really excited about an investigation on me is if it turns up guilty (I'd know scum is in the set {peanutman and AlmasterGM}, you'd know it is in the set {peanutman, AlmasterGM, Sanjay}.

I guess archaebob would be fine (if we don't end up lynching archaebob) because though I want to believe in my heart of hearts that he's town, there's some pretty bananas stuff going on with that guy. foilist13 is a pretty unreadable guy too.

I kind of think that the scummier the player the better, because then we'd get greater insight into peanutman's sanity.

But also...

Why are we even talking about this? We've got a deadline lynch to consider.

[MordyS]

A couple of people asked why I said Mordy started looking scummy to me. There were a lot of logical inconsistencies & just plain wrong statements in that multi-post rant Mordy had before I said that, & they struck me as way off. Mordy was someone I'd been pretty convinced of as town before, but those posts really got me looking at him. I will have to go back & read them again in order to give details. Sorry, I just feel kind of lost with so much going on.

Please follow up on this ASAP and don't let it linger. Unspecified accusations ("logical inconsistencies & just plain wrong statements") is scummy if not backed up with examples. (Scummy because it's casting suspicion on a player, but without giving them a chance to respond, or other people a chance to evaluate your case.)

[PhaerieM]

Uh, think I missed a page. Or two. Sanjay, why am I a mystery?

I guess I just don't understand women

.

lulz. and that's the way we like it

Basically, there are some great reasons to think you are town but a few good reasons to be suspicious. I'm just a little wary of you for being the only person suspicious of Muffin on the Muffin lynch.

Ok, stop and think about what you just said lol. That's a reason for you to be *more* suspicious of me? Shouldn't it be the other way around? I'm having a hard time discerning who is town from the bunch on the muffin wagon precisely because no one was actually suspicious of anything except lurking, or weren't even suspicious at all, but were just all "Hey, it's better than foil/agm". Papa I am pretty much certain of, since he's the one who began the actual wagon (well, the one that people listened to, unlike mine lol it does kind of burn me that I'd been telling you guys he was most likely scum ever since I replaced in, and although a few of you agreed with the case in passing, not one of you was willing to lynch him... then Papa says "Hey, I don't like our options, and um, socio's been lurking, so what the hellz" & everyone hops on like it's the greatest idea ever... sigh. But I'm not bitter!), but everyone else I'm not so sure of. I do agree with Mordy's asessment that at least one scum was *not* on that wagon (my money's on archaebob), but I'm guessing one was as well. Anyway, I don't see why me being the only one with a valid reason to vote Muffin would make you suspicious of me...

And I guess during twilight you made a kind of big show of being excited and being unsure how Muffin was going to flip, which is something I've done as scum so it made me go, hm...

Yeah... I'm kind of a dork I

was

super excited about the lynch. I was super fed up with you guys for not even paying attention to a valid case, and just posting mountains of crap about foil/agm, and so I take a sabbatical for a few days, only to come back & see that there's actually hope for my lynch of choice. Also, until I came to this site, I'd never had a chance to scumhunt. Then I won my first game that I replaced into here, but there were only 5 of us left when I replaced in & we won within a day of me replacing in. My read was right, but it was just a gut feeling. The other game I replaced into besides this one (in which I was NKed night 1), I built a case on someone that I thought was good, based on huge inconsistencies & illogical statements from the person in question, & by the time I realized I was probably wrong about him & unvoted, I'd caused too much damage & everyone lynched him anyway. So. My point? I know I had one... So I was as close to 100% sure as I could be on Muffin, & was super excited, giddy even, to see what I thought & *hoped* to be a scum flip. And yeah, I was excited that you stubborn folks actually changed your votes, & that I was getting my way Cuz I like getting my way.

Oh, and I could tell you that I would never be so over the top as scum, but you'd probably call that WIFOM.

And you are also a mystery because you haven't posted as much so it is harder to get a read on you.

Fair enough. I'll try to fix that, I promise. Although when I do post, it's generally pretty in depth, so that should help you get a better read on me.

[PhaerieM]

A couple of people asked why I said Mordy started looking scummy to me. There were a lot of logical inconsistencies & just plain wrong statements in that multi-post rant Mordy had before I said that, & they struck me as way off. Mordy was someone I'd been pretty convinced of as town before, but those posts really got me looking at him. I will have to go back & read them again in order to give details. Sorry, I just feel kind of lost with so much going on.

Please follow up on this ASAP and don't let it linger. Unspecified accusations ("logical inconsistencies & just plain wrong statements") is scummy if not backed up with examples. (Scummy because it's casting suspicion on a player, but without giving them a chance to respond, or other people a chance to evaluate your case.)

Understood, and totally agree. My boyfriend will be here any minute & we have some hockeys to watch, but I will try to go back to those posts by tomorrow & put into words what was scummy to me.

Oh btw, is that Alice in Wonderland in your avvy?

[Gammagooey]

Archae and cruelty-What are your thoughts on the cop claim?

Peanut-Unless you think you're insane and want more certainty, I wouldn't investigate Phaerie, her being suspicious for having the best reason to vote Muffin doesn't make sense at all to me. Personally I'd investigate archae, he seemed really pro-town to me for most of day 1 but his behavior at the end of it and the beginning of day 2 combined with one of my scum reads being an uncounterclaimed cop are making me doubt my read on him.

[MordyS]

It is Alice in Wonderland.

[cruelty]

for now,

unvote

.

Been at work all day, going to the beach now. I'll make a more substantial post later this evening.

[archaebob]

I don't at all understand what you are saying here. Can you please walk me through the logic?

Happily. If AlmasterGM is scum, and Peanutman dies tonight, then that means he didn't protect him. Why wouldn't the doctor protect the cop? Epso facto, the doc is lying. Therefore the cop can't be killed tonight if AlmasterGM is scum. If AlmasterGM is town, then he protects Peanutman, and likely dies himself (I assume, if he's town, that scum left him alive because there was a lot of scrutiny on him), which means the cop stays alive for at least one more night. Does that make sense?

Yes, perfect sense. That's very good thinking.

Why do you trust Papa Zito's opinion more than you would normally, and why do the presence of AGM and foilist dissuade you?

Papa Zito was right about Muffin. Effective scum-hunting goes a long way in my book. AGM + foilist13 are either scum (a reason to distrust them), or have displayed poor playing this game. Both are good reasons to be skeptical of their scum-hunting. I'm using a heuristic to try and figure out who might have a good read on who the scum are -- this was simply me demonstrating it in short-hand.

This, however, is not so good thinking. My town read on you yesterday was contributed to strongly by the fact that you seemed like a dedicated, independent thinker. I hope you will continue to act in the same way, and not start any of this "follow the person who happened to be right" bull-shit.

And besides, Papa Zito has himself stated several times that he didn't actually have a scummy read on Muffin Day 1, so how was he "right"? I disagree, still, that he was right, because his reason for lynching Sociopath was largely based on the fact that he was a lurker. What Papa Zito was, was lucky.

How is my protesting against a quick-bandwagon on someone who I didn't think was a smart move for the town to lynch a good reason? I still don't think that was a smart move. It was lucky that that wagon hit scum at all, and had Socio flipped town, we wouldn't have gotten any information whatsoever.

You go read the thread, Mordy. My resisting that wagon was utterly consistent with my play, and I have no doubt I'd be under quite a bit more heat had I suddenly just hopped over to the big wagon like everyone else.

I really am not liking the casual way you voted Archaebob. You didn't specify any reasons, except that he has raised "red flags" and that he protested the Sociopath lynch yesterday. I think that his protest was consistent with his earlier play. I haven't ever seen Archaebob do things casually, and he requires ample reason to do anything.

Yes, it was consistent. But he also protested a wagon on scum that lynched scum. It's unfortunate if he turns out to be town that was just trying to do the best thing, but he still protested a scum wagon. SpyreX (our martyred townie) said as much: If Muffin flips scum, it's time to look at archaebob again. I was hesitant to do so before because I thought I had stronger scum reads on Peanutman. In the absence of that read, though, it's time for me to acknowledge that he was absolutely correct. Whether it's internally justifiable or not, you still protested a scum lynch. That's something to take a second look at.

Why are you citing the opinion of our martyred townie, as if that somehow makes him more likely to have been right? This is getting increasingly weird.

And yes, Mordy. I protested a scum lynch. But to call that scummy, the burden is on

you

to prove that my protest was illegitimate. And I

still

think that lynch was a risky, bad move for town, and that you are LUCKY it caught scum. Very lucky.

That is, assuming you are town. I'm becoming increasingly more convinced that there is someone on that wagon who KNEW it would work, and was onboard for that very reason.

I completely reject this notion that it somehow makes sense to draw categories in this game based on who was on that wagon. I mean, what were your reasons for jumping onboard exactly, Mordy? From what I remember, you sorta just said "what the hell," and hopped on. Frankly, I think it's pretty ridiculous to argue that your "what the hell vote" somehow makes you less likely to be scum than my "are you fucking kidding me I'm not going to switch wagons like this for no reason" refusal to vote.

What are you basing this guess off of?

The speed of which the wagon formed plus the predominance of other wagons during the day. If I were scum, I'd hold off the wagon in the hope that I could get one of the other candidates lynched instead. I think it's reasonable to think that if there are two scum (presumably aligned, but I really don't know), even if one got on the wagon in time, it's unlikely that two of them lynched their partner. Especially since two people staying off the wagon and on a different wagon could've theoretically forced a different lynch. It's a probability play, but I think it's cool.

Oh it's cool, Mordy, it's very cool. Here, have a cookie.

And this is stupid. It's pure conjecture, and not even good conjecture, and I find it down-right criminal that you are using this as a serious reason to push for my lynch.

Oh, and why is this exactly?

Read above. Also read my response to your "I'm starting over" post which raised all kinds of red flags for me. Actually, now I'm wondering; What if foilist13 + archaebob are scum partners? Archaebob defended foilist13 on Day One and foilist13 just came to his rescue today. Idle speculation, but would actually totally diminish the town-tell that archaebob gave on Day One.

I defended foilist13 day one? This is a fucking joke, right?

Archaebob, can you explain this exchange between you and Muffin?

No, I can't explain this conversation to you, unless you mean my end only. I asked that question because I made a conscious effort this game to be less abrasive with my gameplay than I was in Newbie 846 (which I suggest you read Day 1 of), which included Muffin, foilist, and ultimately Sanjay. However, one explanation that makes quite a bit of sense regarding Muffin's apparent change of opinion is his use of the word "particularly". Given Muffin's past experience with me, i wasn't acting "particularly" abrasive in this game.

@ Mordy - question: is there any reason in particular that you favor my lynch over cruelty's?

[MordyS]

And yes, Mordy. I protested a scum lynch. But to call that scummy, the burden is on you to prove that my protest was illegitimate. And I still think that lynch was a risky, bad move for town, and that you are LUCKY it caught scum. Very lucky.

Actually, you're wrong here. Your protest was illegitimate. The burden of the proof is on you to prove it was legitimate. There's a dead scum body, and you're not innocent until proved guilty. I'm sorry you disagree, but those are the breaks.

I defended foilist13 day one? This is a fucking joke, right?

Nope. In fact, it was your defending foilist13 day one that gave you a town read in my eyes. Here's the exact quote (for posterity):

Foilist, don't worry. I'll give you the full-fledged wall post of a case you deserve before we get around to lynching you.

Spyrex, here's something you might want to look at. Foil was cop in this game, and got himself lynched with a slip up in the third line or so of the post I've linked you to. His play from that point was as idiotically stubborn and as scummy looking as it has been in this game. I tunneled him, and we lynched him pretty quickly; the catch, though, is that he was actually town.

Therefore, I'm not actually positive that foilist is scum. It is clear to me though that he hasn't learned his lesson from that game, and is therefore somewhat useless to the town.

This post was very possibly the single greatest factor in foilist13 not being lynched yesterday. I'm not saying that you're scum buddies with him. I honestly have no idea who you're scum buddies with. But I'm surprised at your vehement denial. It was a pretty big moment in this game. Dost thou protest too much?

And this is stupid. It's pure conjecture, and not even good conjecture, and I find it down-right criminal that you are using this as a serious reason to push for my lynch.

I disagree.

This, however, is not so good thinking. My town read on you yesterday was contributed to strongly by the fact that you seemed like a dedicated, independent thinker. I hope you will continue to act in the same way, and not start any of this "follow the person who happened to be right" bull-shit.

Why are you citing the opinion of our martyred townie, as if that somehow makes him more likely to have been right? This is getting increasingly weird.

I'm going to treat these as the same question: Why am I relying on other people's opinions/arguments? Because that's what intelligent people do. They consider other people's opinion, weigh the value of them, and either adopt or discard those opinions. Papa Zito got scum lynched. Whether he knew 100% that Muffin was scum, had a gut feeling, or simply thought it was a better lynch, it doesn't matter. He's led a wagon on scum. That gives him credibility in my book. I believe giving him that credibility is an intelligent move. With SpyreX, he is not only cleared town (which means I know his comment had no ulterior motive), but I also respect his opinion from a previous game I played with him. I know he's an excellent scum hunter and an excellent thinker. Again, being willing to entertain other people's opinions is what makes someone an intelligent player. You see this decision as bizarre. I see it as a good play.

Also: Your post is a classic example of OMGUS. You haven't actually attacked me with anything outside my own attack on you. If there was something legitimately scummy in that attack (like total fail-logic, or a scum-slip) that would be one thing. But you disagree with my opinions and have decided that because you disagree with them, that makes me scummy. You need to distinguish between style of play and actual scumminess or you're going to continue to confuse OMGUS with legitimate lines of attack.

Why you over Cruelty? Tbh, you're more scummy today.

[MordyS]

Oh yeah, two more things I meant to address.

That is, assuming you are town. I'm becoming increasingly more convinced that there is someone on that wagon who KNEW it would work, and was onboard for that very reason.

Explain please. Why are you becoming more increasingly convinced of this? And related:

I completely reject this notion that it somehow makes sense to draw categories in this game based on who was on that wagon. I mean, what were your reasons for jumping onboard exactly, Mordy? From what I remember, you sorta just said "what the hell," and hopped on. Frankly, I think it's pretty ridiculous to argue that your "what the hell vote" somehow makes you less likely to be scum than my "are you fucking kidding me I'm not going to switch wagons like this for no reason" refusal to vote.

I said before the wagon even began that Muffin was my third favorite lynch for the day. In that context, my switch to him makes perfect sense. Do you not remember me listing him? Or are you willfully "forgetting" it?

[archaebob]

@ Gamma -

I don't how much I buy the cop claim, but it doesn't matter. It'd be idiocy to lynch peanutman today at this point.

@ everyone -

If this has come down to a choice between me and cruelty, then I obviously pick cruelty. I don't think he's scum, but I do think he's been pretty anti-town for most of the game. I know i've been a bit of a mess with regards to my reads, but I would argue that the dedicated way in which I have pursued those reads has ultimately been pro-town. I generally cause the town to look at a greater variety of things than it would otherwise, and I think it is generally good for the town to have someone who is bringing up those crazy conspiracy theories, as long as they are well researched. I have demonstrated that I don't cling to my positions once I have been proven wrong, and i feel like i can ultimately help to catch scum.

I also don't see how my lynch is informative at all, whereas I do think that cruelty's flip would genuinely reflect on AGM's alignment.

But, all that being said, I really don't think cruelty is scum, and I haven't had anybody take me up on that challenge to find me a genuine inconsistency in his play.

I don't really know who I want lynched yet, as I've come to a generally townish read on foilist. I don't think that everything I've said about Sanjay has been proven invalid, and if you guys wind up in lylo with him still around, I'd strongly recommend taking a good look at him again...but he obviously isn't getting lynched today, and I don't think I'd want him to be at this point anyways.

I'm a little disturbed by the fact that PZ has not at all responded to my challenge to find something genuinely scummy about cruelty, and I felt like his reaction to my questioning of him earlier seemed a little touchy. I also don't know if it's even possible to reconcile the lynch yesterday with him being scum, but it still bothers me. I also am a little perturbed by Phaerie's total absence from the thread today...I remember her making a pretty strong argument about my "lurking" being a scum tell for me, despite my RL claim. I wonder if the same applies to her.

And finally, I really dislike the way MordyS has pushed for my lynch all of a sudden. His reasons are extremely sloppy, and don't seem consistent in style with his play yesterday. I'm also finding that I don't buy his Socio vote nearly as much as I thought I did, though I've got to double check and make sure I'm

really

watching the confirmation bias. He's the primary person I'm going to reread at this point.

The only one that I still have a pretty solid town read on is Gammagooey. I'll have to check on that again too though.

[archaebob]

Mordy, it's 1 AM here, and I'm going to bed.

Peace.

[AlmasterGM]

I'd like to take a short recess from MordyS v. Archaebob to discuss the following:

I guess by trying to get the investigation elsewhere I'm just making it more likely I'm going to be investigated, but I'd really rather someone else be investigated.

Why are we even talking about this? We've got a deadline lynch to consider.

Does anyone else find this post

incredibly

scummy?

[Sanjay]

What is scummy about it?

[Sanjay]

I really do think that we probably shouldn't even be talking about the investigation.