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Post Post #1250 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:15 am

Post by MordyS »

Happily. This was in the middle of my Peanutman case, immediately after Archaebob's big 'I need to reevaluate the game' post.
Mordy wrote:Why do I suddenly want to lynch archaebob?
It gets echoed in my vote post:
Mordy wrote:Anyway, taking those two off the table, the two other super possible lynches for today are archaebob + Cruelty. I trust Papa Zito's opinion after the Muffin lynch, which could be a good heuristic for a Cruelty lynch, but the presence of AlmasterGM + foilist13 (scum/mistake makers) dissuades me. I could be down with an archaebob lynch, tho. His recent material has me a little flummoxed, and his protest against the Muffin lynch actually isn't a bad recent to lynch him. [...] Archaebob has risen the most red flags for me (tho before the day ends I'm gonna read Gammagooey in iso again).
When the time came to vote, he had the most recent red flags. Unless Archaebob thinks I was preparing an opportunistic switch to him after Peanutman claimed cop (and how could I possibly know that was going to happen no matter what my alignment), I was already getting red flags about him before I even started the case. So when I decided to pick between cruelty + archaebob, even if cruelty was supposedly the "scummier" player, archaebob had the far more recent red flag.
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Post Post #1251 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:21 am

Post by Sanjay »

Well, don't you think your reasons to pass on cruelty were a bit poorly spelled out here?
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Post Post #1252 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:14 am

Post by MordyS »

Here, or when I first spelled it out? I mean, when I switched my case from Peanutman it was really two competing votes and I didn't feel incredibly strongly about either. So we're talking about graduations of scumminess -- a gut feeling here, a frowny face there. I was (and am) scumhunting. This is what that looks like.
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Post Post #1253 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:18 am

Post by Sanjay »

When you first spelled it out. The thing about heuristics.
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Post Post #1254 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:24 am

Post by MordyS »

Well, I took those into account too. Idk - it seems pretty obvious rereading it what I was doing. If you felt it was unclear, tho, then yeah. Presumably I could have been clearer, but that seems like the human condition. Lol
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Post Post #1255 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:28 am

Post by archaebob »

@ MordyS -

can you summarize the reasons you think I'm scum again?

bullets are fine, I won't try to straw man you based on an oversimplification.

from what I can tell, the only point you've made that at all remains intact is that you think i've reacted hysterically to your pressure. am i missing anything else?
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Post Post #1256 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:02 am

Post by archaebob »

@ Peanutman -

The only thing I can say to that is if I do happen to be town, and if I do happen to be right about my current suspects, you are doing a serious disservice to the town by silencing me.

I submit for your consideration the possibility of you voting for someone else, and then inspecting me tonight. I'd still prefer that you investigate Sanjay, especially since he tried to deflect the investigation before, but whatever. Unlike him, I gladly welcome a cop investigation, because it has the potential for dropping a lot of information. For example, if I investigate as scum, then I know for a fact that there is scum between you and AGM, which the rest of the town will know as well after I flip.

At the moment, i consider my case against MordyS to be a tip-top priority, and I don't think the town will be left with much to go on when I flip town. So, though i somewhat can understand your position, I'd
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If we lynch Mordy today, and Mordy flips town, then you can quicklynch me tomorrow, and I will not protest AT ALL. Mordy flipping town would indicate that i really have no clue how to play this game.
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Post Post #1257 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:14 am

Post by MordyS »

In order of scumminess:

1. Your reaction to a little pressure. Upon voting for you, you went into full OMGUS mode. You made an awful case against me, practically frothing. In my experience, this is what scum do when they're attacked with a case they don't feel is good enough. (Ie: "Yes, I'm scum. But I can't believe you're trying to lynch me with that case!") I've done the same when I was scum.

1a. You don't read my cases, you ask me questions I've already answered, and you push spurious logic (like the assertion that Gammagooey/Peanutman already committed to hammering) even after it has been disproved.

1b. When I ask you questions, you ignore them until I've pressed on them so hard that you're forced to respond. And then you respond by totally minimizing the questions. (Why do you think there was scum pushing the wagon? Oh, because it went so quickly and anyway I don't really believe it THAT much. Do you believe peanutman's claim? My mind doesn't work that way, but I guess I'd be cynical.)

1c. By contrast, when I answer your questions you suggest that you have even more questions without actually asking them, or that I've failed to answer your other questions but without specifying which ones I didn't answer. In other words: I've been open and dianoetic while you've been closed and obscure.

2. You protested the Muffin/Sociopath lynch vigorously. In fact, you're the only person who protested it quite that much. You have an explanation that justifies why you protested it, but it remains a justification. Ie: Even with a good explanation (and I don't fully buy yours), it was still an inherently scummy act.

2a. Side note. Yes, I excused archaebob's protest earlier today. At the time I had a newbie read on him. I said as much, that I thought he was a dumb newbie who was being bandwagoned by scum. My opinion has since changed. I think I was quick to label him a newbie when evidence suggests that he's more of a competent player. I made an argument yesterday about why I suspected AlmasterGM over foilist13 -- AGM isn't a VI, and therefore it's more likely his mistakes were scummy. I've come around to that position on archaebob as well. Therefore, an entire host of mistakes he has made over the day (some that I've noted publicly, others that I just noted mentally) now seem more scummy.

2b. Some examples: His propensity to ask a lot of questions of other people and lurker-hunt, to give the appearance of participation while actually limiting his own scum hunting. His refusal to answer questions asked of him in a timely manner, but his simultaneous willingness to refuse to even participate until someone answers his own. His generally poor case-building and scum-hunting.

3. I believe strongly that at least one scum member wasn't on the wagon. That means my lynch for today is between you, cruelty and Gammagooey. Gammagooey has struck me as town and continues to strike me as town. Cruelty, upon rereading his answers for today, has been remarkably collected, reasonable, and intelligent. Moreover, Cruelty + Gammagooey both said they would be willing to lynch Muffin. True, they didn't place a vote, but they also didn't protest the lynch vigorously. By process of elimination this leaves you. Moreover, as I've already mentioned, you've acted erratically and seem panicked and scrambling today.
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Post Post #1258 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:19 am

Post by MordyS »

archaebob wrote:If we lynch Mordy today, and Mordy flips town, then you can quicklynch me tomorrow, and I will not protest AT ALL. Mordy flipping town would indicate that i really have no clue how to play this game.
If you're in fact town, this is a horrible thing to write. If town lynches me today and then quicklynches you tomorrow, you'll be doing everyone a grave disservice. If you are town, then yes, you really have no clue how to play this game. But we have a win condition. If somehow you push a lynch on me, then I expect you to defend yourself tomorrow. Not to concede to a quicklynch.

The fact that you're certain enough about me being scum that you're willing to be quicklynched tomorrow if you're wrong tells me two things:
1. Either you're scum and you're hoping you'll get me lynched and then somehow divert being lynched tomorrow. (Perhaps by making a too-scum-to-be-scum argument.)
2. Or you're town with awful hubris in addition to your poor play. I'm not even 100% convinced you're scum. I happen to think you're the best candidate at the moment, but if you flipped town I wouldn't be willing to just be quicklynched. Unless you're a confirmed sane doctor you never absolutely know the alignment of another player. The fact that you believe you absolutely know my alignment is cause for concern. And should be cause for you to reevaluate what you think you know in this game.
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Post Post #1259 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:23 am

Post by archaebob »

ok, thankyou Mordy. I'll respond in full when i get home later tonight.

one question...have you read my town meta (Newbie 846)?
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Post Post #1260 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:25 am

Post by archaebob »

MordyS wrote:
archaebob wrote:If we lynch Mordy today, and Mordy flips town, then you can quicklynch me tomorrow, and I will not protest AT ALL. Mordy flipping town would indicate that i really have no clue how to play this game.
If you're in fact town, this is a horrible thing to write. If town lynches me today and then quicklynches you tomorrow, you'll be doing everyone a grave disservice. If you are town, then yes, you really have no clue how to play this game. But we have a win condition. If somehow you push a lynch on me, then I expect you to defend yourself tomorrow. Not to concede to a quicklynch.

The fact that you're certain enough about me being scum that you're willing to be quicklynched tomorrow if you're wrong tells me two things:
1. Either you're scum and you're hoping you'll get me lynched and then somehow divert being lynched tomorrow. (Perhaps by making a too-scum-to-be-scum argument.)
2. Or you're town with awful hubris in addition to your poor play. I'm not even 100% convinced you're scum. I happen to think you're the best candidate at the moment, but if you flipped town I wouldn't be willing to just be quicklynched. Unless you're a confirmed sane doctor you never absolutely know the alignment of another player. The fact that you believe you absolutely know my alignment is cause for concern. And should be cause for you to reevaluate what you think you know in this game.
Fine, point conceded, it was a stupid thing to write.
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Post Post #1261 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:25 am

Post by MordyS »

Near the beginning of the game I believe I glanced through it. I haven't looked through it in awhile, though I do remember reading you write somewhere that you were intentionally trying to switch your meta up. So I'm not sure what value reading your town meta will have. (If I'm misremembering that, let me know. I think it was in the conclusion to one of your games, maybe?)
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Post Post #1262 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:20 am

Post by archaebob »

Go look at it again. I'm curious what you'll make of it.
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Post Post #1263 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:28 pm

Post by PhaerieM »

Honestly, you guys, just keeping up with the new posts in this thread is taking up all my time that I have to spend on Mafia. Also, archaebob, you keep asking where I am, yet I've been posting & you never respond to the things I say (also: it's been one day since I've posted). Yet you expect everyone to respond to *your* arguments constantly.

Also I didn't want to post about new things until I was able to go back & look at the MordyS posts I pointed out as scummy last week. He's right that he deserves details, and I didn't want to seem like I was ignoring that. You keep saying you want input from me on you thinking MordyS is scum, but I thought MordyS was scummy a week ago, long before you did. Your arguments are sometimes right on, and sometimes ridiculous (and if I had a goddamn multi quote button then responding to everyone's dozens & dozens of posts that I want to respond to would be sooo much easier!!), and you've contradicted yourself many times... but so has Mordy. Like, a lot. You both have had serious attitude changes and issues Day 2, and you both have said extremely scummy things. The only difference is that I was suspicious of you since Day 1, and only became suspicious of Mordy Day 2 after that rant I speak of. Mordy has had the biggest day to day attitude shift I've ever seen in my albeit small experience with mafia.

So the problem is, I think you're both scummy. It's unlikely that you are both scum, but it's not impossible. If we lynch one of you & that one of you flips scum, then the other is probably thinking they're going to be cleared town. Either way, I'm pretty positive one of you is scum. I really wish I had more time right now to go *much* more in depth in rereading. Like I said, it takes all my time just to keep up with the pages per day that this thread puts out. I will come back on asap to give my read of mordy's (first of many, now, it would appear) rant & give more of my opinion of what's going on, and point out some really ridiculous contradictions that BOTH of you have made in your posts recently. For now, it'll have to wait though. So yes, I will give you my input, archaebob, but in the meantime it might be good for you to take your own advice and comment on things besides posts regarding your recent tunnel.

In other news: congrats to peanutman and AGM for actually getting a chance to participate in scumhunting today (rather than being on the defense), and posting a lot of intelligent , well thought-out things, some of which I was thinking but didn't get a chance to say. This actually surprised me from both of you, given Day 1 & part of day 2 for peanut, but I guess it goes to show how much more helpful and wise someone can be when the pressure is loosened a bit.
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Post Post #1264 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:30 pm

Post by Sanjay »

MordyS, why is it when I brought up archaebob's meta you were like "Cool, I'll give it some thought" and when archaebob brought up his meta you were like "meta, more like suck-a, in that the town will be suckas if we look at your meta"

Also, have you given it some thought? It doesn't seem like it.
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Post Post #1265 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:00 pm

Post by MordyS »

I'm still weighing it in my mind. Re the division of responses tho, I'm much more inclined to believe a meta argument coming from someone else than from the person themselves. I intend to look over the game he requested I look at, tho that'll probably have to be later in the week.

Here's the thing, tho, and I've noticed this a couple times. Not everything is a contradiction. I didn't respond strongly when you said I should consider archaebob meta (I said I'd consider it, it was a possibility), and I haven't responded particularly strongly here when archaebob asked me to look at his meta (I said that I think I had glanced at it, and I'm questioning the value of it). With regard to this particular case, I'm wondering a) the value of investigating archaebob's meta to make conclusions about his play here and b) if there is a value, what exactly that meta tells me. But in general, I'm not the pope. I'm not making grand declarations. I'm working through information as it arises and I'm considering things, trying to think about them logically and empathetically. If I expressed what seems like contradictory thoughts on the meta, especially if the thoughts are both phrased so hesitantly with considerations, that's likely because I'm weighing between the two. It's kinda silly to treat my thought process as something more like mutually contradictory facts.

In general, re: Meta, it would help me to see specific posts quoted, with specific arguments attached. Things like, 'He acted X there, and was town,' (like you said, Sanjay) doesn't contain a primary document for me to analyze myself. Maybe there are differences between this case and that case. Other things like, 'Read my participation in a different 30 page game,' is the opposite problem. What exactly am I looking for? There's too much signal-to-noise to really get a good read imo.
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Post Post #1266 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:03 pm

Post by MordyS »

EBWOP: Just to clarify, Sanjay, I realize you said that he was a very confident scum person when he played scum, which might suggest his hysteria upon being attacked here is a town-read. So specifically in terms of that I have to ask: a) Can I reasonably believe his meta in a different game can tell me something about this game and b) Is that really a similar case? I haven't seen, from the brief scanning I did of that game, anyone go after archaebob like I did in this game. I'm unsure that the two cases are comparable. If you feel they are tho, I encourage you to post some quotes that you think bear a reasonable relationship to this game.
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Post Post #1267 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by Sanjay »

MordyS, where do you think the second scum is?

Here are your choices:

On the wagon: Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, foilist13, AlmasterGM

Off the wagon: cruelty, archaebob, peanutman, Gammagooey

You've stated a belief that Papa Zito, PhaerieM, me and foilist13 are town. You think peanutman and Gammagooey are town. AlmasterGM is potentially cleared by peanutman.

Why are you dropping your case on cruelty right now? Can you tell me what gave you this feeling that if you push on archaebob he would freak out?
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Post Post #1268 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:35 pm

Post by MordyS »

I'm not dropping it. I could lynch cruelty if it came to that. And like I said, I plan on reading Gammagooey soon (once this particular thing has run its course). I think I actually said earlier who I think my possible lynch options are. In order: archaebob > cruelty > gammagooey > foilist13.
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Post Post #1269 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:40 pm

Post by Sanjay »

Better hurry up.

If this becomes MordyS vs archaebob, I'm voting you.
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Post Post #1270 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:42 pm

Post by MordyS »

If this becomes between archaebob and me, it will be epic town failz. Especially considering the fact that - possibly with the exception of my misreading the Sanjay/Archaebob thing - I haven't done a single scummy thing today or this game.
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Post Post #1271 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:44 pm

Post by archaebob »

@ MordyS -

Do you want to take a breather with me for the next two days or so so that everyone can catch up? I think it's worthwhile, and I've got a major paper to write in two classes anyways that I've been neglecting in favor of this game.

I hereby declare myslef
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Post Post #1272 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:49 pm

Post by MordyS »

I would like to see the response post you had promised, then feel free to take off until Friday.
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Post Post #1273 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:15 pm

Post by foilist13 »

@MordyS - You said you had a strong town read on Gammagooey. It seems as though your opinions with with convenience.

Ok, questions asked of me.
peanutman wrote:@Foilist, why did you say :
foilist13 wrote:It now seems as though this is realistically between MordyS and Archaebob, and I am inclined to choose MordyS.
Before that point, I had been wanting to lynch either Cruelty, AGM, or possibly you, but your claim has basically cleared you and AGM for the day. That leaves Cruelty, however he had responded better to my arguments than I was really willing to admit, and this new debate between Archaebob and MordyS looked as though it would be extremely fruitful, and so it has.
Cruelty wrote:
foilist13 wrote: I still like the Cruelty lynch, and if we buy what Peanut is saying, I think that his is best by far.

Why? If peanut is the cop then half the case against me (that peanut and I didn't address each other day 1) goes away. And you're left with your bunch of dubious points and OMGUS.
A significant portion of your defense was based on lynching Peanut instead, and in absence of that lynching you would be a better option, and would yield more information. I'm not voting you anymore, so I really don't want to get into a debate about how good of a lynch you really would be unless we start seriously considering you. Is that fair?
Sanjay wrote:
foilist13 wrote: It now seems as though this is realistically between MordyS and Archaebob, and I am inclined to choose MordyS.

How is this justification for a vote in this town?
Despite the vast amounts of content in this thread, or rather because of it, it has become exceedingly hard to sift through posts and find scum slips. There are not a lot of people today who look particularly scummy, although that is changing. I still like the vote, and plan on sticking by it for the present.
MordyS wrote:
foilist13 wrote: It now seems as though this is realistically between MordyS and Archaebob, and I am inclined to choose MordyS.

How is this even true? There was one vote on me. How is this realistically between me and Archaebob? There isn't a single scummy thing I've done. The one case against me that you agree with turns out to be factually incorrect. This is the reason why I wanted to lynch you yesterday -- awful, awful, awful play.
Yeah, whatever. Clearly there are scummy things you've done, more so than any other player. I'd list them, but I'd essentially be quoting Archaebob, so I won't until I have something new to add. The bottom line is he's right. As for factually incorrect, that part of the case is no longer what I'm basing my vote on, but I still haven't checked it out for myself.

Cruelty's post then is pretty much just calling me stupid, so yeah, ok whatever.
Peanut wrote:Foilist, as you are debating whether Mordy or Archae is the better lynch, you use this type of argument? Really? I know it's only one of your points but you're blindly (without checking) using one of the candidate's argument, admittedly, as evidence against the other. Really didn't give Mordy much of a chance on that point.
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[quote="MordyS]OMG LOL. Do you realize I attacked archaebob first? Are you even following the fucking thread?[/quote]

OMGUS has been a pretty prevalent part of your argument since he attacked you. Shockingly it is possible to add OMGUS to an argument after you've already voted.

Ok, if I missed anything point it out to me, but I think I've answered everything directed at me.
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MordyS
MordyS
Mafia Scum
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MordyS
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1133
Joined: April 7, 2009
Location: NYC
Happy Birthday!

Post Post #1274 (ISO) » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:28 pm

Post by MordyS »

foilist13 wrote:Yeah, whatever. Clearly there are scummy things you've done, more so than any other player. I'd list them, but I'd essentially be quoting Archaebob, so I won't until I have something new to add. The bottom line is he's right. As for factually incorrect, that part of the case is no longer what I'm basing my vote on, but I still haven't checked it out for myself.
You know what? Fuck it. Foilist13, you can't make your own case, you can't deal with information in the thread, you've been playing terribly/scummily since day one, you jumped onto the wagon after my cut-off point, you're indicating archaebob's "super strong case" which I have totally dealt with and dispersed. I don't know if Archaebob is scum or not. He's certainly been scummy, but at this point, you're practically a policy lynch. I don't really care how this makes me look either.

Unvote
Vote: foilist13
1-1: Town
0-2: Scum

"Isn't it funny? The truth just sounds different." - Penny Lane

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