Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[Sanjay]

What's the vote count anyway?

[MordyS]

I believe archaebob is now at L-2?

[Papa Zito]

Because I'm trying to take into account the worst-cast scenario here. Best case, archae is scum, gets lynched, and we find the last scum member tommorrow for an awesome win. But assuming the best-case scenario is the one that's going to happen is dumb, and I think that just about anyone else would be much more useful to have their opinions as confirmed if they are investigated and turn up town.

wat

No, assuming any case doesn't make sense. We need to react to today's game state, not a possible future one. And honestly this is all just really insulting to Foilist. It seems like you're just attempting to discredit him in case he's picked.

[Sanjay]

Papa Zeets: what is with calling archaebob out on buddying just now? Surely that's not something you consider an accurate scumtell.

[cruelty]

I gave it at the beginning of the day and my approach hasn't changed. I feel like an attempt has been made to muddy the waters (damage control) and I don't like it.

I have tried SO HARD to please you.


I will get behind an archaebob lynch. I don't want to right now, because I think there's still a possibility of getting foilist lynched. If it comes right down to it thought, I will get aboard the bob-train.


@PZ (well, everyone, but mainly PZ in light of his vote) - you're now voting archaebob so I guess I can assume he's currently your #1.. if you believe he's scum, then how do you feel about foilist? Especially his post 115.

@GG - I want a foilist lynch. I will be happy if you're on the wagon. I don't really like your logic though - it reads a little like an escape clause in the event that he does flip town.

@Mordy, don't like your foilist vote, but I love your foilist vote.


This is what I'm thinking. I can't push an AGM lynch today (

by the way where is AGM? I have no idea what the hell Phaerie was talking about with regards to his contribution today

) because he's now entwined with a claimed cop. Lynching either would be foolish and peanut's claim has given me a reason to consider my read on AGM, so I'm willing to let that lie. I can and will push for a foilist lynch. He's been horrifically scummy in my opinion today - I don't really need to go over why at this point as it's all extensively documented, I will if asked.

I'm still not convinced that either of Mordy and bob is scum, I can easily see both being town and I think that it's just a huge distraction. I find Sanjay's sideline participation a little odd too, but I need to re-read to double check that.

Gotta goto football now so I'm cutting this short, I have a little (not much) more to say, it can wait.

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zeets: what is with calling archaebob out on buddying just now? Surely that's not something you consider an accurate scumtell.

What's the point of posting it then?

[Sanjay]

Why is it the first time you've called someone out on it (I haven't checked, I'm assuming)?

This isn't the first time you've noticed something that could be construed as buddying, especially when practically anything can be.

[Sanjay]

I mean, I called you the Batman for goodness sake.

[Papa Zito]

I have tried SO HARD to please you.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????

@PZ (well, everyone, but mainly PZ in light of his vote) - you're now voting archaebob so I guess I can assume he's currently your #1.. if you believe he's scum, then how do you feel about foilist? Especially his post 115.

I can't deny that your play today is a marked improvement over yesterday. Whether that's because yesterday's behavior got you so much negative attention or otherwise is meh.

Archaebob's been really chaotic in this game, and yesterday's points are still there. He's not a bad secondary choice at all. Again, I feel the optimal play for town is to reduce the off-wagon pool.

I addressed Foilist... was there something else you wanted?

This isn't the first time you've noticed something that could be construed as buddying, especially when practically anything can be.

Context, Sanjay. Archaebob's push on prob-town MordyS is backfiring horribly. So what to do? "Halp me PhaerieM, you're my only hope." You think it's coincidence he'd appeal to another prob-town player who had posted reservations about MordyS?

[Gammagooey]

Cruelty, in all honesty I think archae has a higher chance of flipping scum than foilist, but in my opinion foilist is playing abysmally and I just don't see him being helpful in the future, whereas if archae is town I think he can make some helpful contributions and find scum.

Papa if you think I'm trying to discredit him do you agree with what he's posted? Do you think he's playing well? At the beginning of today I thought he was a townie that had made some dumb mistakes but had learned from them and would make some contributions and be useful later on. I no longer think that is the case.

[Papa Zito]

Papa if you think I'm trying to discredit him do you agree with what he's posted? Do you think he's playing well? At the beginning of today I thought he was a townie that had made some dumb mistakes but had learned from them and would make some contributions and be useful later on. I no longer think that is the case.

I think you're misconstruing his play for the entire day based on his last few posts.

[Sanjay]

That's how I took it.

I assumed archaebob respected PhaerieM's judgment when he said he wanted to tone down the debate with MordyS after PhaerieM posted that she thought the debate was hard to follow and bad for the town. I don't think taking good advice is scummy.

I suppose I see how appealing to PhaerieM's sensibilities does benefit archaebob-scum though, so I guess point to you.

I just don't really care for buddying as a strong scum tell.

[Gammagooey]

...Yeah, I might be overreacting a bit to foilist's recent posts as compared to the rest of the day. Voting based on someone else's incorrect assumptions and saying stating that Mordy's case was OMGUS twice when I don't think it even fits the definition just screamed terrible play to me.

Foil, if you're town please, please check out the arguments to make sure they're true before voting in the future. I still don't think you've played well, but it's probably also not as bad as I've made it out to be.

I do think archae is the most likely scum right now, so I'm going to go ahead and

Vote: archaebob

.(reason for thinking he's scum is in my iso 71)
I believe that's L-1.

[MordyS]

Archaebob, claim please. And maybe it's time to write that defensive post.

[PhaerieM]

unvote: archaebob

I'm not ready to see a lynch yet, and with mordy ready to hammer, I don't feel right leaving my vote on right now until I really have a chance to decide. I'm fine with archaebob still claiming at l-2, but I don't want to see him claim then get hammered right away.

To cruelty: AGM hasnt contributed much in the last couple of days, but what he has contributed over this game day has been well thought out and helpful, I think, which is a far cry from his play yesterday while under attack.

[Sanjay]

foilist13, who do you think the most obv. town player considering just day 1 was?

[cruelty]

I have tried SO HARD to please you.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Joke.

@PZ (well, everyone, but mainly PZ in light of his vote) - you're now voting archaebob so I guess I can assume he's currently your #1.. if you believe he's scum, then how do you feel about foilist? Especially his post 115.

I can't deny that your play today is a marked improvement over yesterday. Whether that's because yesterday's behavior got you so much negative attention or otherwise is meh.

Archaebob's been really chaotic in this game, and yesterday's points are still there. He's not a bad secondary choice at all. Again, I feel the optimal play for town is to reduce the off-wagon pool.

I addressed Foilist... was there something else you wanted?

Yep. I feel like foilist and archaebob are circling each other. I think it's weird that nobody else seems to want to look at this.



Also, I'm really unconvinced by this on/off wagon stuff. You lynched a guy based on lurking - I can't argue with the results but I don't think you can really justify calling me scummy because I didn't really want to move off someone I thought (think) was (is) genuinely scummy. It's not as though I've been flip flopping or inconsistent in any way. Genuinely don't understand.

AGM hasnt contributed much in the last couple of days, but what he has contributed over this game day has been well thought out and helpful

Huh?

He tunneled on me, then tried to guide the cop. I don't think he made a particularly good case on me. You said this earlier in the day (on Nov 25th):

I'm not sure about you being scum, and I'm actually more sure of Archaebob being scum than I am you.

This was post 894 overall. Then on December 7th (post 1107) you said this:

I'm really not sure about the cruelty/sanjay cases

This to me reads like you don't like the cases against me (correct me if I'm wrong..) and retained this attitude for about 200 posts (I consider that a significant amount) - this is basically all AGM did up until peanut's claim. So please answer; if you don't like the cases against me, and AGM did basically nothing but attack me and THEN tried to lead the cop, how can you consider AGM to be helpful.

[MordyS]

A couple more questions for archaebob:

The only thing I could have done, really, was try to pull another "nobody post until he posts" stunt, but I guessed that it wouldn't work, and that I would just be forfeiting my ability to influence the D1 lynch. I decided to let him slide with the lurking, focusing my energy instead on trying to move the wagon over from AGM to foilist.

How is letting someone slide in order to conserve your own "ability to influence" a townie action? Imo, townies should not be concerned about their own influence, only about producing pro-town results. If it's anti-town to lurk, isn't it anti-town to let lurking slide?

Sociopath's flip has given us an incredible wealth of information, and I want to have a good handle on it before I post anything.

Have you ever explained what information you feel you can divine from the wagon? What is this "incredible wealth?"

Let it be recorded in this very official record that I owe foilist13 a rebuttal to the six points against Cruelty in his post 953 before Day 2 comes to a close.

I haven't seen this, did I miss it? Are you still planning on rebutting foilist13's six points before Day 2 comes to a close? Or is this another promised post that has not yet come?

And...guess what! I thought I knew who the mafia were, and I was wrong! Maybe, just maybe, I'm actually humble enough to realize that I might not totally know what's up, and therefore want to avoid assuming any sort of role as top of the town immediately at the start of Day 2.

Words to live by.

A question for the rest of you, because I've been trying to make heads and tails of it, but am coming up empty-handed:

Honestly guys, this latest vote from peanutman is almost a dead giveaway. I mean, really, peanut? Between AGM, foilist, and me, you actually think that I'm the most likely to be scum, and the most productive day one lynch for the town?

This is NOT for talking about now but it will be. This is a bad news bears kind of statement.

It is irritating to no end that no one is bothered by the fact that AGM is random and impulsive, and has no interest in helping the town, he simply doesn't want to be lynched.

This is the above quotes bastard brother who, together, have started a bank robbing spree and collect the skulls of squirrels.

If you want to know why BOTH of these statements are bad news....

Too bad. Lynch. Someone can pull it together tomorrow.

I have the sense that this is very important. (Also, when I noticed it digging back through the thread, it made my heart smile because SpyreX clearly also saw a connection between foilist13 + archaebob.) What does everyone think SpyreX was alluding to here, though? I'm gonna give it more thought, but if someone has any idea why SpyreX was so ticked off by these statements, I wanna hear theories.

[Sanjay]

I'd personally like to believe that cruelty's improvement in play is because I asked him to play better. Just an ego thing.

cruelty, could you expand on/clarify this:

Yep. I feel like foilist and archaebob are circling each other. I think it's weird that nobody else seems to want to look at this.

Also, I'm really unconvinced by this on/off wagon stuff. You lynched a guy based on lurking - I can't argue with the results but I don't think you can really justify calling me scummy because I didn't really want to move off someone I thought (think) was (is) genuinely scummy. It's not as though I've been flip flopping or inconsistent in any way. Genuinely don't understand.

Here is my thinking on that. Basically, the Muffin lynch gave us a buttload of town reads. Unless there was some pretty masterful manipulation (on Papa Zito's part), sloppy play (PhaerieM's part), or sage wisdom of when to bus (my or MordyS's part), it seems to me like we are pretty likely town. Also, archaebob and Gammagooey seemed very townish day 1. AlmasterGM and peanutman aren't great lynch candidates. I can't tell the difference between foilist town and foilist scum and, thanks for nothing, now you've given me a town read.

Scum are playing pretty good and I think given that, you totally can see the lynch of someone who seems to be town.

I guess Papa Zito has more faith in the wagon related reads than the other reads. It's a pretty defensible position.

---

My thoughts on MordyS:

Maybe out of laziness, I still haven't fully reread and analyzed the archaebob vs MordyS fight. But that foilist13 vote seemed really townish to me. I mean, it's SO OBVIOUSLY BAD.

Maybe I'm just a sucker for people who are too scummy to be scum. I know I am. But still, I think MordyS is town now. He's either that or putting on a really good frustration act.

I'm not so sure about MordyS vs archaebob anymore that I would definitely site with archaebob.

I'm going to reread foilist13 to see if I can get anything scummy about him and not just anti-town.

[Sanjay]

I really like the idea of a Muffin-archaebob-foilist13 scumteam just because the idea of me replacing into a game to be haunted by the three townies I wronged most in Newbie 846 is extremely beautiful.

If I was Albert Einstein just trying to find the most elegant explanation for the universe, I could stop my scumhunting right here.

[MordyS]

My archaebob FAQ:

My fullest, most complete case (Here), a question about archaebob ignoring cases (Here), and three of my original questions (Here) that he dodged (Here). Finally, my most recent questions (Here). Except for the three he dodged, he has not answered any of these yet.

Also, bonus: My question to foilist13 (Here), and his answer that basically he's willing to accept arguments without checking out the evidence himself (Here). As far as I know, he still hasn't looked at the evidence himself.

So when archaebob comes back to this thread and claims I've never made a case against him, or he's answered all the questions against him, the FAQ is handy and here.

(Btw, does anyone else think maybe SpyreX was killed so he couldn't say what was so "bad news bears" about that post? It's a little WIFOM, but considering who he wanted to look at tomorrow if Muffin flipped scum, it points in one person's direction -- well, maybe two.)

[cruelty]

It's hard to articulate, Sanjay. The foilist side of things is obvious, his post 115 just set off alarm bells. You could go through his entire history and find multiple examples of him agreeing/siding with bob, defending him, whatever. This in and of itself isn't necessarily scummy, but the way he's gone about it is. Post 115.

The bob side is different, it's basically entirely gut but I get the impression he doesn't really want to talk about him. I was hesitant to say anything because I don't think there are specific examples in his play (it's hard to point to someone that by it's nature doesn't exist), but this:

Not sure what the hype is about, besides the fact that he's the only one who agrees with me. I agree that his saying that this is down to just me or Mordy is stupid, but being stupid is consistent with his play. How is this suddenly a big deal, when he have long gotten over all the stupid things he said yesterday?

Basically, the Muffin lynch gave us a buttload of town reads. Unless there was some pretty masterful manipulation (on Papa Zito's part), sloppy play (PhaerieM's part), or sage wisdom of when to bus (my or MordyS's part), it seems to me like we are pretty likely town. Also, archaebob and Gammagooey seemed very townish day 1. AlmasterGM and peanutman aren't great lynch candidates. I can't tell the difference between foilist town and foilist scum and, thanks for nothing, now you've given me a town read.

So, process of elimination by way of WIFOM?

[Sanjay]

That's how I scumhunt when I don't have any gut reads.

Sorry!

[MordyS]

Oh my god, guys. This is a little exciting case I just dug up.

In all honesty, I'd totally prefer lynching a lurker over a scummy player who's being active. I consider it the priority of Day 1 to make everyone establish a position and a pattern of play, so that we can get to the real scum-hunting after the first flip. I'm much more worried right now about the day ending with Muffin, China, and fatchic being allowed to keep to the shadows than I am of leaving foilist or AGM alive an extra day.

Muffin, you need to post.

(Seriously. SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY. HE WROTE THIS.)

Sociopath is a replacement. What justification is there for lynching him? You think his lurking is at all an indication of him being mafia?

This makes very little sense. Can people please explain why foilist/AGM is suddenly not a good lynch anymore? I'm very suspicious of all these sudden wagon hops.

Suddenly, Pharie votes for Sociopath, and suddenly a large chunk of the town does. What the hell am I supposed to make of this exactly? The lurking is smelly sure, but neither Muffin nor Sociopath ever really did anything concretely scummy. I certainly didn't think randomly quicklynching Sociopath would be good for the town, as there was no reason to expect that he wouldn't just turn up as a lurker townie. And tell me, what would we have learned if Sociopath had flipped town? Nothing.

Guys. My heart is weeping with joy at the moment.

[Sanjay]

Well, dang.

My bad, MordyS.