Mini 859 - Cleansing of Falls Church - Over

[Sanjay]

I think the fact that a win condition was omitted and the ambiguousness of the rolename count as structure.

semioldguy, the kinds of things Furry asked me to claim would be game breaking.

[semioldguy]

Then it seems we have a difference of opinion/interpretation and arguing about it is unhelpful. I willing to believe that you think the proposed scenario would be rule-breaking.

[Sanjay]

semioldguy's case against me as I understand it + the places I have answered him.

semioldguy's reason: Mediating between DRK and CA looked like scum trying to keep a fight going (Post 1173).

My response: Given both CA's seeming unreasonableness and DRK's defensiveness, it was difficult to take a strong stance (Post 1178).

semioldguy's reason: I did a lot of fencesitting on the DRK vs. CA fight when it was rehashed. (Post 1173).

My response: I might not have responded to this one actually. I really don't see where this happened. semioldguy, help me out?

semioldguy's reason: I do a lot of parroting and following this game. (Post 1173).

My response: I just don't see this. I have told semioldguy as much in (Post 1331).

semioldguy's reason: Not wanting to lynch the soft claim and not wanting to lynch the full claim was ridiculous (Post 1173).

My response: I explain what I was thinking right after (Post 1175).

semioldguy's reason: Early scum read (Post 1182).

My response: Not much to respond to this, but I must say it piqued my curiosity (Post 1183).

semioldguy's reason: I don't bring a lot of original content to the thread and just ask a lot of questions with no follow up. Seems like scum faking content.

My response: I ask where he is seeing this (Post 1272. When he doesn't answer, I ask in a much stronger fashion (Post 1331).

Also, if I might add something else, this is definitely not something I do or would do as scum. In this town on day one it would have been so damn easy. Maybe I'm just messing with my meta so I can use this defense or something, but the big question would be: why?

And then there's some stuff about not scumhunting during twilight which I really don't quite get either. semioldguy, explain how this is scummy. PLEASE.

WHAT THE HELL AM I DEFLECTING?

[semioldguy]

I said currently. None of those posts are what I would consider current. Much more recently you have been dodging the subject matter placed before you by either modifying or changing the subject, quoting text and asking a question not pertinent to the quoted material and/or giving answers that aren't applicable to the questions asked.

[Sanjay]

What am I deflecting currently?

[Looker]

Oh, I don't want to answer that one.

Well at least answer Furry's questions.

Need to do some thinking after the last two flips basically dashed all possible scenarios I had planned out.

I still think that DRK-Semi are town, and really dont like this push against him. This holds especially true since so few people think he is scum, that a flip on a wagon opposing him wouldnt do much to clear more

So....

Scum are in AB-BB-Sanjay, I doubt that fitz is scum, but he isnt in the town category that other are, looker is in this grey area too, but closer to town then fitz for things I will point out later if needed.

@Sanjay - What is your role name? Your win condition?

Grey area? Moi?

Why, I've so keen a sense of justice it'd make your head spin

.

This should be enough to clear me as town; however, as always, I'm open to objections.

Because it has been requested....

Sample PM

You are a resident of Falls Church. No way will you allow some gang bangers from the Left Coast to invade your peaceful, law abiding town!

You have no powers other than your voice, your vote, and

your keen sense of justice

. Good luck cleaning up your town!

Confirm in thread here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12433
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess I should have been more specific in the PMs, but standard win conditions apply, i.e. you win with your faction whether alive or dead.

Because it has been requested....

Sample PM

You are a resident of Falls Church. No way will you allow some gang bangers from the Left Coast to invade your peaceful, law abiding town!

You have no powers other than your voice, your vote, and your keen sense of justice. Good luck cleaning up your town!

Confirm in thread here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12433
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess I should have been more specific in the PMs, but standard win conditions apply, i.e. you win with your faction whether alive or dead.

This is why I didn't claim role name yesterday and why I was reluctant to claim win condition today. It would auto-confirm me to anyone who had the vanilla PM if I said "Um, I'm not sure what the win condition is, it doesn't really say".

This isn't a theme game.

Opportunism. Can you link me to any of your crumbs? Any breadcrumbs, clues, or hints that you dropped anywhere to prove that this isn't a half-ass attempt to manipulate recent events, i.e. the posting of the VT PM?

I think the fact that a win condition was omitted and the ambiguousness of the rolename count as structure.

semioldguy, the kinds of things Furry asked me to claim would be game breaking.

I would really like to take Furry, and any of his assistance, out of the equation. I don't believe you; however, until I can prove why others shouldn't believe you, there's really nothing I can do. From my standpoint, if you survive today's lynch, then you've won. Case closed. I don't know if there's anything else that I can do at this point.

[Sanjay]

Who do you think asked for the vanilla pm to be posted, Looker?

[Looker]

In all honesty, I'm guessing you; however, are you aiming to use this fact as evidence of your towniness? That, within itself, comes off as a worthy scum tactic, similar, in grade, to bussing. Do you agree?

[semioldguy]

Someone who doesn't have it.

[Looker]

Crap, which makes sense. Why would you want to give the PM to scum? Why would you want to show it to people who already had it?

Sanjay: Why didn't you just do what I did and crumb if you're town? What was the initial intention of all this?

[Sanjay]

In all honesty, I'm guessing you; however, are you aiming to use this fact as evidence of your towniness? That, within itself, comes off as a worthy scum tactic, similar, in grade, to bussing. Do you agree?

No, it's not evidence of my towniness. I'm just saying that your accusation of this being a "half-ass attempt to manipulate recent events" is off.

[Sanjay]

Crap, which makes sense. Why would you want to give the PM to scum? Why would you want to show it to people who already had it?

Sanjay: Why didn't you just do what I did and crumb if you're town? What was the initial intention of all this?

Because finding scum based on them not having the vanilla PM is bogus and should not be in a normal game. Confirming town based on them having the vanilla PM is bogus too.

I don't understand the second question, Looker.

[Looker]

I was asking why you had Kreriov post the Vanilla Town PM, but it doesn't matter now, I'm thinking of something else. And, please forgive me, I meant no offense by the term "half-ass", though it may be a bit off. I just wanted to know the point of it, as all. Why have Kreriov post the role PM for Vanilla Town?

[Looker]

EBWOP: "was" all

[Looker]

I wonder why it gets so quiet everytime I speak. I guess I

am

too bogus after all

[Sanjay]

Because I needed to have the vanilla PM be common knowledge to talk about it.

Otherwise I couldn't explain why I didn't want to answer Furry's question.

[Looker]

Okay. Thank you for answering my questions. If you have any for me, just ask.

[Looker]

@Furry & DRK: Stances?

[Sanjay]

Are you saying that if you don't know where someone's reads are coming from that it makes that person scummy? If not, then this isn't a valid point.

If the person refuses to explain the reads, yes.

I'd like to inform you that you are wrong. It is not always pro-town to come forward with everything. For instance, if I have a very effective read to catch scum or tells on a certain player then I can continue to use it to catch scum. But if I share those read with the scum or that player, then they become aware of it making that read/tell much less useful. Other times it's helpful to build a wagon without giving reasons to get information about who hops on the wagon and how the wagon forms. Not giving reads could help to hide one's role as a cop so that they are not outed. I could go on if I need to. There are many pro-town reasons not to explain reads.

Fortunately for you, being wrong isn't a scum tell. Unfortunately for you, there are plenty of other things you are doing that are.

This is not what is happening.

I am asking you to explain the scumtells YOU HAVE ALREADY CLAIMED.

How is it pro-town for you to say you see these scumtells and when I ask you where for you to entirely ignore my request?

[archaebob]

I resent people who breadcrumb. It defeats the purpose of the game, and I think it should be as against the rules as quoting the whole goddamm thing.

@ Looker -

I do not understand why you continue to resist making a case against Sanjay. A comprehensive, cited, document would do wonders for town discussion right now.

[Looker]

I resent people who breadcrumb. It defeats the purpose of the game, and I think it should be as against the rules as quoting the whole goddamm thing.

@ Looker -

I do not understand why you continue to resist making a case against Sanjay. A comprehensive, cited, document would do wonders for town discussion right now.

Well thank you for your thoughts and resentment despite the fact I have no use for either at the moment, especially when it appears you believe the purpose of the game to be a battle of unsubstantiated politics and hearsay (how are you supposed to prove anything?). I see nothing wrong with providing a hint as evidence for future reference (I was only trying to help

and win

), but that's irrelevant anyhow.

Regarding your cited document, I did. I thought you read it already, it was my

Post 1608

, in which I stated my initial case and added revisions. To be honest, I don't see much to discuss right now. I've said what I've said, asked for questions and objections - I can't see what else I can do.

[havingfitz]

@ Looker -

I do not understand why you continue to resist making a case against Sanjay. A comprehensive, cited, document would do wonders for town discussion right now.

Regarding your cited document, I did. I thought you read it already, it was my

Post 1608

, in which I stated my initial case and added revisions. To be honest, I don't see much to discuss right now. I've said what I've said, asked for questions and objections - I can't see what else I can do.

Looker...since I am interested in why you are so convinced of Sanjay's guilt so that I can consider your points and perhaps help you rid the town of scum...I have looked over your posts (not as well as I could I'm sure) and I have not found your reason/s. And the post you answer archaebob with above (post 1608) really didn't satisfy his question, or my interest, IMO. Do you actually have a case on Sanjay or is it a gut feel? Or do you two have history? Are you bussing him? Or none of the above?

[archaebob]

looker, if you actually want to win, and you are actually convinced that Sanjay is scum, then it is in your interest to win my vote.

your linked post is not a case. it's a mildly interesting but generally shoddy refutation of Sanjay's attempts to defend himself.

I need to be taken through an analysis of Sanjay's play that draws serious attention to the things he has done that he supposedly wouldn't have done as town. Until someone does that, or until someone does something really dumb, my vote is going to stay on semi-old guy.

Right now, I'm not at all convinced by you. I need to go through the posts that SOG kindly linked for me before I can make a statement about him, but so far, I'm really suspicious of the wagon on Sanjay.

[Looker]

@ Looker -

I do not understand why you continue to resist making a case against Sanjay. A comprehensive, cited, document would do wonders for town discussion right now.

Regarding your cited document, I did. I thought you read it already, it was my

Post 1608

, in which I stated my initial case and added revisions. To be honest, I don't see much to discuss right now. I've said what I've said, asked for questions and objections - I can't see what else I can do.

Looker...since I am interested in why you are so convinced of Sanjay's guilt so that I can consider your points and perhaps help you rid the town of scum...I have looked over your posts (not as well as I could I'm sure) and I have not found your reason/s. And the post you answer archaebob with above (post 1608) really didn't satisfy his question, or my interest, IMO. Do you actually have a case on Sanjay or is it a gut feel? Or do you two have history? Are you bussing him? Or none of the above?

I didn't satisfy your interest? What do you mean by this? What exactly do you think is going on? Am I on trial for something? What are you saying? I submitted, out of generosity no doubt, my reasons for suspecting Sanjay and, quite frankly, they

are

good reasons. Now whether or not they "satisfy your interest" should not be my concern. I'm not here to persuade you, I'm here to collaborate, to assist, to help, and you're not putting in any work. You question my opinions while giving none of your own to compare and Archaebob simply states that he's "going against the grain". You can't possibly be serious, can you?

looker, if you actually want to win, and you are actually convinced that Sanjay is scum, then it is in your interest to win my vote.

your linked post is not a case. it's a mildly interesting but generally shoddy refutation of Sanjay's attempts to defend himself.

I need to be taken through an analysis of Sanjay's play that draws serious attention to the things he has done that he supposedly wouldn't have done as town. Until someone does that, or until someone does something really dumb, my vote is going to stay on semi-old guy.

Right now, I'm not at all convinced by you. I need to go through the posts that SOG kindly linked for me before I can make a statement about him, but so far, I'm really suspicious of the wagon on Sanjay.

Be suspicious, that's your "job" so to speak - you're supposed to be. What I'm

not

supposed to be is winning your vote right now. You criticize my utilization of breadcrumbs, yet you feel comfortable riding the opinions of other players. My choice of play is no more inferior than your own. Now of course, this has nothing to do with anything and I still want Sanjay lynched so I'm going to go back to that. I think Sanjay should be lynched.

Let's lynch Sanjay.

Now, of course, you can take the lazy and opportunistic route and begin a wagon on me, but, I assure you, it'll be to no avail. Sanjay'll get a kick out of it, of course, but I doubt both you AND havingfitz'll be thoroughly

satisfied

. Whatever, it's up to you - I'm just here to kill scum.

confirm vote: sanjay

I'll be pretty much damned if I switch this time.

[DeathRowKitty]

Whoa...a lot happened in the one day since the thread was opened.

KoC's death is really odd to me. If he were still alive, I would be voting him in this post and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would push for his lynch. It's also interesting in the context of the Sanjay wagon. Up until DKU came in and got himself wagoned, the KoC wagon was the only real competition for the Sanjay wagon. It would be really stupid for Sanjay-scum to NK the only other lynch candidate (unless of course I'm falling into some sort of WIFOM trap by mentioning this), considering it practically dooms him to be today's lynch.

I'd like people on that wagon to explain why they were on it. For most it seems like he was not initially their top suspect, but they voted for him anyway. Sounds really scummy to me, like trying to get a scum buddy saved from lynch by building up an alternative wagon.

The KoC wagon wasn't going to happen and there's no way Sanjay was a better lynch than DKU day 2 based on the information we had. Also, DKU-scum could easily have been paired with KoC-scum, which I thought was the best bet at the time. Also, I still have doubts that DKU read the thread, regardless of what he said.

Dude, you know how much I want Sanjay lynched, but you should realize that Furry was the one that started TWO wagons to save Sanjay's ass. Now, I don't care which one we lynch, just so long as they both go down.

Unvote:
Vote: Sanjay

It sounds to me like you consider Furry to be scummy mostly because he tried to save Sanjay from lynch. Wouldn't it have made sense to vote Sanjay first?

ATTENTION ALL TOWNIES: DO ANY OF YOU HAVE JUST REASON WHY SANJAY SHOULD NOT BE TODAY'S LYNCH?

A Sanjay lynch does look more attractive after both other wagons from day 2 ended up being on townies and possibly given recent events. More on that later in this post.

Not completely sold on Sanjay's SOG case at this point. I originally got a pro-town feel from SOG, though some of his more recent posts have been straining that read.

IGMEOY SOG

Player Name ---> (What are your reads on this player)
[...]
DeathRowKitty ---> BigBear

Probably my biggest question mark right now. I suspected him towards the end of day 1 and the start of day 2 and then started getting town vibes. Now, depending on Sanjay's flip, I'm really not so sure. If Sanjay isn't scum, PoE would bring BB near the top of my scum list. Do I think Sanjay is scum? Keep reading to find out.

Just a general comment: I'm starting to see

a lot

of confirmation bias against Sanjay. Even if you think Sanjay is scum, think about what you post before saying that everything Sanjay does is a scum tell.

Yeah, I remember now, cuz I couldn't help thinking that you should've claimed cop - everyone else has.

Furry's push to get Sanjay to claim his role name and win condition tells us a lot, though I suppose not nearly as much as we could have hoped. One big thing it tells us though is that Furry is

very

likely town if Sanjay is town. Asking for role name/win condition as scum would be stupid if Furry is scum and Sanjay isn't. If scum don't have the vanilla role PM, it would be stupid because Furry wouldn't be able to verify if Sanjay was giving correct information and could very easily be trapped. However, it's pretty safe to assume scum were given the vanilla role PM, since it wasn't posted in thread until very recently. In that case, unless Furry and Sanjay are both scum, Furry would just be unnecessarily confirming a townie and very possibly be preventing a mislynch.

As for Sanjay's reaction, it's very interesting. It does make him seem scummier on the surface that he refused to respond until after the PM was posted, but I would argue it actually makes him more likely town. Assuming scum received the vanilla role PM, Sanjay-scum could have tried to look townier by using the PM to "confirm himself," similarly to how Looker made a reference to the role PM, whereas Sanjay-town would have less inclination to go against what he feels to be proper in a mini normal. WIFOM? Sure. So make of it what you will.

Basically, I still think Sanjay is town.

Vote BigBear

P.S. I will be v/LA from this Friday until 02Jan10 (as the Mod was aware of before I joined). I would like to stay in the game assuming I am not lynched or NK'd, but I will understand whatever the Mod decides.

I approve of the BB vote. Also, HF, will you have any access during that time?

@SOG, Looker, or someone else strongly invested in the Sanjay case
If you want Sanjay lynched, please make a single post describing your case for those of us who aren't sold. Copy and paste posts you've already made if you have to.