Mini 897 - OpenSource Mafia - Game over!!

[Vaya]

/confirm

[Vaya]

Snow_Bunny, please just go ahead and full-claim. I'm sure most players here would want it, and I doubt there's anyone here who's that strongly against it.

While Vaya does often lurk D1, I think that in this instance it correlates with general inactivity on the site. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I don't think it has anything to do with D1 - in the last game I played with her, she was scum and lurked to victory. Moreover, even if it is D1 only, how is this even remotely acceptable?

As Iecerint pointed out and you ignored, I haven't been posting at all on site in any of my games for the past few days, it doesn't have anything to do with my alignment in this game.

Vaya, if Josh were killed and turned up scum right now, which player do you think would be most likely to be his scumbuddy?

I don't know, I'm really not particularly feeling scum from Josh right now. If I had to make a guess if he were scum, I would think that at least one of his buddies are busing him, as I usually see happen when scum is wagoned like this. I'd guess that this would most likely be SocioPath.

[Vaya]

I very much doubt that would be a problem. I'd think that scum already know enough about her role from what's been said already to know whether or not they want to keep it around.

[Vaya]

We have already established that that is null.

We have?

As I mentioned before, I hadn't been posting anywhere on site the past few days up until yesterday. A quick glance at my posting history would show this. It doesn't have anything to do with this game or my alignment here, you can't honestly use that alone as a point for me being scum here.

Is there something I've forgotten about that he failed to address?

Perhaps an actual opinion on SB?

I think bunny is town.

I still want her to claim everything related to this alignment changing ability of her's. Flavor, rolename and any other details about it there might be.

@Vaya: who is scum?

I'm honestly just not sure at the moment, hence why I haven't thrown out a vote yet.

[Vaya]

Actually, I'm agreeing with Glork here, about SP's reaction to my and Iec's comments seeming overblown and insincere.

Vote: SocioPath

[Vaya]

Actually, I'm agreeing with SocioPath here, about Vaya's first post.

Really Almaster? I hope you're not serious, because its a pretty stupid point he's pushing and I don't see how anyone could sincerely find it agreeable. Please, what's scummy about wanting someone to elaborate on a role they've already claimed? What does it matter if it was the first line of my first post?

Really, SP's votes and attacks here seem to be a case of scum jumping at something that looks bad, but isn't actually scummy if you actually give it any consideration, as a townie who's actually trying to figure out who's actually scum would.

Also, I like how Vaya waits for Glork's support before she votes SP, despite there being nothing from SP between her own voteless post and her SP vote.

I agree with this.

What's the problem here? I feel Glork made a good point about SP, which after he mentioned it, made me think it over and come to agree with him.

On the other hand, I am very disappointed that Vaya didn't vote someone in his return post. There had been plenty of issues to weigh-in on up to that point; his failure to vote someone based on any of that looks a little scummy IMO.

Meh, fair enough point here though, about me not throwing out a vote in my first post. Nothing really jumped out at me as scummy at the time of my return post, so I really didn't feel that I could throw out a real vote that I could back up at the time. I decide to simply hold off on voting for a few posts until I noticed something that seemed scummy.

[Vaya]

SP has the right of the situation because Vaya's obv scum No, I will not elaborate more on that matter.

Is this due to official information or just a desire to protect certain scumtells you feel are true? Or is even that asking too much?

Official information.

Okay, I want you to elaborate on that, SSK. You're claiming to have role-related reasons to believe I'm scum?

[Vaya]

SP has the right of the situation because Vaya's obv scum No, I will not elaborate more on that matter.

Is this due to official information or just a desire to protect certain scumtells you feel are true? Or is even that asking too much?

Official information.

Okay, I want you to elaborate on that, SSK. You're claiming to have role-related reasons to believe I'm scum?

Yes.

Alright, as far as I'm concerned, you're either drawing the wrong conclusions from the info you have, or are lying. Please share with us exactly what it is you know so I can figure out which it is.

[Vaya]

Unvote
Vote: MafiaSSK

With his hesitance to actually claim the details of his role, I'm going to say he's making it up here.

Really, he's basically claiming to be a daycop of some sort, that plenty enough to already paint a big NK target on him. There no point in keeping the exact nature of his role secret in fear of being killed over it.

[Vaya]

I think its worth repeating that this is a partial reveal game. I do have to wonder if SSK is scum expecting to get away with this because of that.

I'd really prefer not to have to claim my role here, but I will if I'm going to be the lynch for today.

I still think its a good idea for SSK to fully claim this result he has against me. Kitten, do you have actual reason here to say that SSK shouldn't claim, despite the fact that he would be an obvious kill target regardless?

Unvote
Vote: SocioPath

[Vaya]

I honestly find Kitten's case against Iec to be pretty weak. Townies do care about how they're perceived, they don't want to act in a way others see as scummy and get lynched any more than scum do, its really not a mindset that's in anyway exclusive to scum. I'd say that how much someone worries about how they look would be more due to the sort of person and player they are, then due to alignment. I could buy that Iec is the sort of guy that would worry about if others thought he was scummy.

I do think that not voting someone you think is scum just because they are voting you is bad play, its not really scummy though.

And of course, half her points against him seem to hinge on my alignment, which hasn't been revealed. It's stupid play to actually try to use this against him at this time.

I got a feeling Iec is town, I'm not supporting his lynch any time soon.

I'm not too sold on Pom being scum either, but I'd be in more support of her lynch than Iec's. And I would like this day to end sometime soon, I hate long days, so I may switch my vote to Pom later if no one else I think is scummier is looking like a possible lynch for today.

Pre-post edit: I can't make a post better than this ATM, because I'm having trouble with the site, and I can't set up a separate window to look at more posts. I'm sorry, hopefully it will clear up very soon.

Please. Even *I* could come up with a better excuse. You're not even trying.

Vote: Pomegranate

This is an awful, scummy reason to jump on the Pom wagon, why isn't this post getting more attention? I'd rather lynch this guy right now than Pom.

Unvote
Vote: Josh Lyman

For the record, I still think SP's earlier votes were really scummy, and none of his more recent posting has really impressed me or came off as particularly townish. I'd still support his lynch over Pom's or Iec's.

[Vaya]

I don't think JL's reason for joining the Pom wagon was bad at all. Seems very applicable to me.

No, I'd say it was pretty bad. Pom claimed that she couldn't make a better post at the time do to having issues with the site, which seems understandable enough to me. I don't see any grounds for assuming she is lying or just using it as an excuse not to contribute much, and not that she's simply being honest about.

Also, it seems like he's just piggybacking SSK's reason for adding a pressure vote to Pom with his vote. All in all, that last vote of his just feels to me like scum jumping on a wagon.

[Vaya]

I never said the problem was completely unsolvable from her standpoint, but I could see her not going the extra mile to get around it. I really don't think that's good reason to think she's scum.

And besides, that solution wouldn't have worked anyway, as you would see if you paid any attention to her posts.

Pom, use word then. You have no excuse not to make a better post than that. In fact, for pressure

unvote vote Pom

I guess I should have been more clear: I had started the post, but later I was having dome problems with MS. I couldn't follow any links, and could not go back to the actual game page, and could only mention what I remembered from reading the thread, and from Topic Review. Making my post on a Word Document wouldn't have helped any.

And though maybe it might not particularly contain much proactive scum hunting, I don't find Pom's last few posts to be too poor. She was at least giving some original thought and commenting on things that were being talked about.

Also, its stupid to think I'm scum with someone just because I find an attack against them to be poor or defend them. I do this as town when I feel someone else is being unjustly attacked or an attacker is scummy.

And if anything, I don't know if, as scum, I would be so bold as to defend a buddy who seems to have most of the town against them. I'd probably bus Pom in this situation if we were scum together. So its really a poor point on your part to try to tie us together like that.

[Vaya]

Pom, any thoughts on who you think is scum?

[Vaya]

Actually, taking a quick glance at Pom in iso, she's only made one vote so far all game, and that was a random vote. She hasn't made a real stance or backed it up with a vote all game. Same goes for Vala, too.

I change my mind, I'm all for lynching her today.

Unvote
Vote: Pomegranate

[Vaya]

I could very easily see Almaster being scum, for a number of reasons, I've been thinking this for a while actually. The thing is though, he's asking to be converted by our alignment converter, so I want to give it a night and see what happens. So I don't think Almaster should be the lynch today.

@Snow_Bunny
If you're not going to claim everything about your ability(for the record, I don't think you're scum, I'm asking because I want to know more about what we're dealing with here), could you at least answer something for me that I don't believe has yet been clarified?

Reading Almaster claimed flavor for why he wants to be converted, do you believe that it fits with you're flavor and that it would have an effect?

Unvote
Vote: Vala Mal Doran

I also want to know who she thinks is scum right now and who she supports the lynch of today. Looking at her posts in iso, I have no idea who she suspects. She's just as guilty, if no more so at this point, of not scumhunting than others who have been accused of it lately.

[Vaya]

Almaster, do you still think Snow_Bunny should target you tonight, given what she said above?

[Vaya]

Unvote

Vaya, you've indicated suspicion of both Alma and JL, but you haven't posted for awhile. What do you make of current events?

I'm in support of either lynch. More so of Josh right now due to this info Glork seems to have on Almaster, but otherwise, I agree with you completely that Almaster's claim seems like a scum claim. I'd be happy to have Josh hammered after his claim.

Also, I agree with what UK said earlier about Almaster and Pom being possible scum partners.

[Vaya]

Vote: Phate

A lot of my reasoning for this is the same as what Iec just said in his last post where he voted Phate. Mainly, I don't think its too likely that both alignment converters would actually be of the same alignment, and of Bunny and Phate, I'm pretty sure that Bunny's on my side.

Also, Faraday's reaction to being wagoned and his "flailing" that he's been criticized for doesn't really come off to me as scummy. Of him and Phate, I'd prefer to lynch the latter.

[Vaya]

Vote: MafiaSSK

[Vaya]

Phate, who did you target, and did you convert them?

Also, what do you expect to gain from a massclaim?

[Vaya]

Why do you expect this setup to be breakable?

Glork was stated to be scum, Phate.

[Vaya]

I don't see why this simply being a bastard game makes the setup breakable by massclaim. Glork-scum was for a massclaim, and I'm not sure I trust Phate either, so I'm don't think massclaiming is going to help find scum. I'm against it right now.

[Vaya]

Did anyone else notice the mod's comment edited into Phate's 862? You still really think a massclaim would be productive, Phate?

On another note, to the people voting me, don't you think that in a game with four cops claims so far, and a claimed sanity checker, that some cops are going to have sanity issues and that simply getting a guilty on you is pretty null?

SSK, I have a few questions for you.

1. Is you ability one-shot? If not, would you be able to investigate yourself to check your sanity?

2. Why did you not claim miller Day 1? Do you not usually claim when you are a miller?

[Vaya]

Since you are voting for me Kitten, and I'm assuming it's because of the guilty, could you respond to the other thing I said?

On another note, to the people voting me, don't you think that in a game with four cops claims so far, and a claimed sanity checker, that some cops are going to have sanity issues and that simply getting a guilty on you is pretty null?

[Vaya]

On another note, to the people voting me, don't you think that in a game with four cops claims so far, and a claimed sanity checker, that some cops are going to have sanity issues and that simply getting a guilty on you is pretty null?

I agree with you, but that's not the only reason why I'm voting you at this point. I'm voting you (or, at least, differentiating you from SSK) predominantly for Glork's interaction with you and with SSK.

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't think that Glork's interaction and 'buddying' with me is more likely to be scum to scum than it is scum to town. Scum side with people they know are town all the time, and Glork-scum would have plenty of motive to side with me-town like this. It makes him look good not pushing the mislynch if I were lynched and I flipped town, and on the off-chance he would die first, his interaction with me could help incriminate me and help my lynch along.

Since you are voting for me Kitten, and I'm assuming it's because of the guilty, could you respond to the other thing I said?

On another note, to the people voting me, don't you think that in a game with four cops claims so far, and a claimed sanity checker, that some cops are going to have sanity issues and that simply getting a guilty on you is pretty null?

Wellp, that's why I didn't vote you yesterday. But I'm willing to take a chance. I could try to come up with a case on you if you'd like.

I don't think you get what I'm saying here. The guilty result is null, without any reason to trust he's sane(or trust him for that matter), it's not any reason at all to vote me.

If there's something about my play that's making you think I'm scum, feel free to make a case explaining why, but don't go trying to make one just for the sake of proving this "result".

Phate, reread the flavor in the death scene. MicroSuckpersons killed GlorkScum. Either Glork is a ("WinBlows Loyalist") traitor and scum did us a favor, or Glork belongs to a rival scumgroup and scum still sorta did us a favor. I think it's unlikely that a town-aligned MicroSuck-flavored vig killed him (pro-town MicroSuck people would've come out during discussion of the Google claim). It could be that the flavor is not reflective of what happened N1, but that would transcend "oddness" of setup and become kinda silly.

It IS possible that he was a Death Miller -- he mentions death millers in one of his old posts; I noticed it while I was looking through his posts for SSK/Vaya interactions -- but I think allusions like that are about as likely to come from scum as from genuine death millers, anyway.

Actually, Glork being a traitor seems rather plausible after thinking about it. His WinBlows Loyalist claim, and his "I believe Almaster has a similar line to me in my role PM" business, seems like he may have been trying to hint to the scumteam that he was a traitor.

Speaking of which,

Unvote
Vote: Almaster

I still don't like that request to be converted Day 1, and his unusual sureness that he wouldn't be converted to scum. Given that, and Glork's claim of having a similar line in his role PM that very well may have been hinting to the scumteam or an attempt to buy his buddy a night, he seems like a very good lynch right now.

[Vaya]

If there's something about my play that's making you think I'm scum, feel free to make a case explaining why, but don't go trying to make one just for the sake of proving this "result".

Then I won't make a case, since I trust the result. I don't think I would have been RB'd (assuming that happened), otherwise.

Assuming the case is that you were RB'ed, don't you think you could have been blocked to stop you from clearing me as you were saying you would try to do yesterday? Scum would have just as much motivation to block you if I were town as they would if I were scum.

[Vaya]

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't think that Glork's interaction and 'buddying' with me is more likely to be scum to scum than it is scum to town. Scum side with people they know are town all the time, and Glork-scum would have plenty of motive to side with me-town like this. It makes him look good not pushing the mislynch if I were lynched and I flipped town, and on the off-chance he would die first, his interaction with me could help incriminate me and help my lynch along.

I agree with you if you and SSK are both town (e.g. SSK is an insane daycop, and UK was roleblocked), but I disagree with you if we're operating under the assumption that one of you is scum. Not that that's an impossibility.

For the record, I actually don't think it's unlikely that we're both town, that SSK is sanity challenged and Kitten was blocked.

[Vaya]

SSK, where did you crumb that you were a miller?

[Vaya]

Could someone explain how SSK's breadcrumb suggests miller? Right now, I don't get it?

[Vaya]

Guys, I think Almaster is telling the truth here.

Unvote

It may very well be that Glork really was a death miller.

Read over some things that Glork said earlier here, it seems to go along perfectly with what Alma's claiming.

I think there's a definite theme of not being able to claim full info D1. I know there's a hugely signifcant part of my role that I can't claim until D2. Assuming I live to D2 (which is never a safe assumption :/), I plan on fullclaiming in my very first post of the day.

BTW, if I get killed tonight, I'm innocent. Just an FYI.

^How'd we all manage to miss this one?

I said I'd fully claim in my first post of D2, but that if I die before then, trust that I'm innocent. I'm not going to say anything more at the time.

Bleh. In the interests of not mislynching Faraday, I'm going to share a little information.


Remember way back at the very start of the game, when people were wondering about the vagueness of "partial-reveal," and I posted this:

IIIIIIIII know what it means

But I'm not gonna say.

Why not?

I dun wanna.

The partial-reveal means that dead players will be revealed as "Guilty" or "Innocent" without additional information. This jives

perfectly

with what Faraday claimed as getting for his investigation results, so either he happened to guess at how alignments/investigations would work (very highly unlikely), he had inside information about reveals as scum (unlikely at best, though possible), or he's telling the truth.

^A little odd though that Glork seems to know that he's a death miller, and Almaster doesn't(maybe Alma isn't one). Don't think that makes Alma scum though.

Public Service Announcement:

In this game, it is a terrible idea to assume that someone is not a miller simply because they have not claimed miller. Claiming miller on another day is not a scum tell. If you are an investigative role and you got a guilty, it is highly likely that your result is wrong.

That is all.

:goodposting:

^Probably the post that made Glork think Alma is protown. Also, what Alma says here gives credibility to his miller claim now.

I think that Alma has a clause in his role PM very similar to mine, and I have reason to believe that another player might have a similar clause as well. That is enough for me to keep Alma (and that other player) alive until tomorrow, when we'll have a little more information to share.

A question Almaster. Do you have any idea who this other player may be?

Unless this is some elaborate scum-gambit by Glork, or Almaster's making an incredibly consistent fakeclaim(both very unlikely), Alma's probably town. Can anyone think of how this couldn't or isn't likely to be true?

[Vaya]

Except for that GlorkDM isn't Alma's position, nothing to complain about. I'm not sure whether GlorkDM or GlorkTraitor is simpler.

Almaster may not be in the exact same position as Glork(Glork was a self-aware death miller, Alma appears to just be a miller), but that doesn't really matter. Glork was aware of Almaster's role because his and Alma's were similar, and made many posts alluding to it. That's all that matters.

I don't think its possible for Glork to have been a Traitor. Alma's claim goes

too

well with things Glork said and what he himself, before Glork said anything, had said Day 1.

I don't think its possible for Alma to be lying scum here at all unless Glork and Alma are buddies who spoke to each other pre-game and prepared this very elaborate fakeclaim, which would make the Glork-Traitor theory you're operating under impossible anyway(I feel there's next to no chance this is actually the case).

The Alma post I thought Glork was alluding to D1 was that pre-game numbers post. Glork made a similar one just after that. I had assumed (until the conversion request) they were masons or something who could indicate themselves to one another that way or something.

Alma, can you explain that post? Your claim doesn't really cover it.

I'm not going to answer for Almaster here, but I just want to point out that Glork never mentioned anything to even suggest that this post was the one. You jumped to that conclusion all on your own. I find it far more plausible to believe the post I referred to was the one that let him catch on to Almaster.

[Vaya]

Well, Glork never said anything to mention that the post you've indicated was the one, either, that I can tell. To the extent that I'm "jumping" (and, as I vacuously could only guess at that Glork was referring to and he never told us, I suppose I am, at that), so are you.

I'm not making any jump in logic here at all. It actually makes sense to believe that Glork, as a miller who couldn't claim until day 2, would note a post like Almaster's and realize he probably had a similar role. He even responds to it, telling Alma :goodposting:, hinting that he is aware of such millers.

Nothing suggests that Glork thought anything of Alma's confirm post. The only slightest connection that exists is that Glork also used binary to make a breadcrumb. You pretty much took that, made a huge jump, and created a connection between Alma and Glork where one didn't exist.

I buy that the GlorkDM view is possible -- hell, I was the first one to mention it -- but I do not agree that GlorkTraitor is impossible or even unlikely. Breadcrumbs make it at least as likely that Glork was a traitor and Alma is scum.

I don't see why a huge conspiracy is necessary, particularly not on Alma's part. As far as I can tell, it just requires one post from Alma to set up the Miller claim (or that's all there is on his part, at least). It's worth noting that, depending on the chronology of that post (specifically, whether it came before or after Faraday's can't-claim-my-name claim; I think he was the first person to mention that), it may be more telling. But Alma certainly didn't say anything matching that claim "too well" early on, except that he is associated with WBs.

Glork death miller is far more than just "possible", its almost definitely the case here. Iec, let me try and spell this out for you.

Glork pretty much has to be a death miller who couldn't claim until Day 2. Go read him in iso. Everything he hints about his role suggests he's a death miller. He outright tells us that if he dies tonight, he's innocent. He says he has a vital part of his role that he can't reveal until Day 2, and that he can't say anything more(being a DM is a pretty big deal, see the confusion its causing now). He likes Alma's post that talks about claiming miller at a later date not being a scumtell. He had knowledge of what the partial-reveal meant, because as a death miller, he was told what he would flip. He acts just like someone who got such a role would.

Actually, that last reason, now that I type it out, seems like pretty damning evidence that he

is

a death miller, and not just scum acting like it. I can't think of why scum would be told how they flip.

Almaster also alludes to his role in an earlier post, before Glork says anything hinting about it. In order for him to be fakeclaiming, he would have had to have successfully guessed the exact mechanics of town role that exists before he would know anything about it, and act like he had that role. There's next to no chance this actually happened.

Also, if you want to go on ignoring all the reasons that they are telling the truth, try stopping to think why they would come up with such a needlessly complicated and suspicious fakeclaim. If they wanted to claim miller, why not just claim miller and not make up all of this about not being able to claim until Day 2. Why would they make up such an unnecessary complication? And you can't say he just made it up later, so much they have said contradicts that thought in more ways than one.

Iec, I'm not sure how else to better explain this to you. This is so obviously the case in my eyes, all the evidence in their posts points to it, and it doesn't make any sense for them to be lying.

Speaking of that -- how did Glork and Alma react to Faraday's claim and subsequent wagon? If you're correct, and the "thing in the PM" he alluded to involved delayed claims rather than a role involving the number business, I'd imagine they'd have backed off after he mentioned that, or at least advocated waiting until D2 for judgment. I'll have to check whether that's what happened.

I'm not sure why you think they both should have backed off, but Glork did back off because he was a self-aware DM and knew that Faraday claimed to get results that were the same terminology as he was told he would flip. Or at least that's what I can tell from reading his post after Faraday's claim.

[Vaya]

Vote: Pomegrante

One thing I don't want anyone to forget about is that in the opening scene, we were told that at least one person had their alignment changed last night. I think it's important that we know who it is that might have been town yesterday but scum today, or vice versa. For that reason, tubby needs to tell us what Phate did last night, and if it was anyone else who is town, they should probably come forward now.

[Vaya]

Vote: Pomegrante

[Vaya]

One thing I don't want anyone to forget about is that in the opening scene, we were told that at least one person had their alignment changed last night. I think it's important that we know who it is that might have been town yesterday but scum today, or vice versa. For that reason, tubby needs to tell us what Phate did last night, and if it was anyone else who is town, they should probably come forward now.

The opening text indicated that an unknown number of people were converted. I don't think this implies that the number was greater than zero.

Phate did not convert anyone last night. Tubby should NOT elaborate further on this point at this time.

Alright, that makes sense. And if you don't think tubby needs to say anything about his results, I'm fine with that now.

2. Alma and Glork's big early-game "breadcrumb" posts don't make any sense with their roles. I also don't like that Vaya ignored them in his post, but the GDM evidence is pretty solid IMO.

You're still reading too much into this. If you didn't know, Alma's binary post was just him saying "/confirm" in binary. As he told you himself, it means nothing in this game, he was clearly just joking around in a game with all this computer-related flavor. There's nothing to read into here.

As for Glork's breadcrumb, there's not anything I can really say about it. It's not that the breadcrumb makes no sense in regards to his role, I'm sure it does relate to it in some obscure way. But as he told us himself, we wouldn't be able to figure out what exactly it means without him explaining it to us, as would be the case with any good breadcrumb. I can say though that it probably has nothing to do with Almaster or his confirm post.

I get Iec's reasoning. How do you think we should test this? By lynching from the possible scum pool or lynching someone from the prob town chain to test the theory?

Lynching someone we think is town here would be bad play, and it wouldn't work as you seem to think it would anyway. This town chain isn't so solid that revealing one person on it as town would completely confirm the rest as town. It's not impossible, for instance, for me to be scum who derailed the Alma wagon to look town, or for you, UK, to be scum who stopped my lynch for the same reason.

[Vaya]

http://home2.paulschou.net/tools/xlate/

Iec, this is the site I used to translate from binary.

If you enter what Glork posted, none of the results appear to be anything coherent. You can check it yourself if you want.

[Vaya]

Unvote
Vote: tubby

[Vaya]

You know guys, with 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Pom just hammered me, and it wouldn't surprise me if that wasn't an accident.

By the way, I wasn't sure if I should have counter-claimed Pom yesterday because it wouldn't definitely make her scum, but there's no harm in it now. I'm a Linux doctor, though unlike what Pom claims, there's nothing in my role PM about failing to protect if my target is converted. With that and this hammer, I'm pretty sure she's scum, she probably needs to be lynched if scum aren't endgaming tonight.