Mini 897 - OpenSource Mafia - Game over!!

[Vaya]

Could someone explain how SSK's breadcrumb suggests miller? Right now, I don't get it?

[Snow_Bunny]

I'm too confused. I think the setup debate on fluff and results isn't going to take us anywhere. That being said, Alma's millerness based on a modkill would he claim it on D1 doesn't sound good to me. Also, SSK's crumb is awful.

I'd like to hear tubby's comments on everything. Maybe a fresh air would prove more useful.

[Snow_Bunny]

I'm too confused. I think the setup debate on fluff and results isn't going to take us anywhere. That being said, Alma's millerness based on a modkill would he claim it on D1 doesn't sound good to me. Also, SSK's crumb is awful.

I'd like to hear tubby's comments on everything. Maybe a fresh air would prove more useful.

[Snow_Bunny]

Arrg!!! Stupid MS server!!!

Anyway, as I was trying to post in the past hour, I'm too confused. I think the setup discussion and the results and sanities and all of that aren't taking us anywhere.

Alma's millerness and the modkill seems odd. SSK's crumb is even odder, for that matter.

I would like to hear tubby's comments on everything. Maybe a fresh air will bring us something good.

[Iecerint]

Clearly, being aligned with WinBlows does not make you scum - there is only guilty and innocent.

First, that isn't clear at all. Second...I guess your take on Glork's flip is that he was a death miller? If so, do you have reason to believe that you are also a death miller? If so, why haven't you said as much?

Are you also a "WinBlows Loyalist"? If not, what do you make of Glork's claim?

(You have also ignored the issue of connections to Glork, on both your part and Vaya's part, but that would make sense if you really think he's a death miller.)

What I also couldn't mention before was how my miller status played into this - I thought that if I was targeted by S_B, that would go away.

Possible, but it requires a reading deficit on your part. She advertised her ability as one that converts scum.

The plausibility of your mod-enforced late Miller claim is decreased by a lack of prohibition on Fishy's part IMO. I agree that SSK should have just claimed Miller yesterday, though. There was a chance an investigative role could have wasted a shot on him -- but I guess it at least would've confirmed sanity.

I like a Vaya lynch. I liked it yesterday and I like it even more today with the cop result.

Huh? The cop result is SSK's, and it existed yesterday. The only other thing you could mean is UK's ability, which was apparently roleblocked (unless SSK is lying and has no ability). Also, when did you like a Vaya lynch yesterday?

[AlmasterGM]

First, that isn't clear at all. Second...I guess your take on Glork's flip is that he was a death miller? If so, do you have reason to believe that you are also a death miller? If so, why haven't you said as much?

No, that isn't my take. Glork was killed by someone affiliated with Microsoft. This means their are either competing mafia factions OR faction alignment has nothing to do with innocent/guilty. Since I am a Winblows user and my win condition is with the town, I consider the latter to be true.

I have no clue on the death miller issue. My role PM just says that I am a miller, it doesn't specify what kind or what that means in terms of game play. This is why I thought S_B might be able to convert me.

Are you also a "WinBlows Loyalist"? If not, what do you make of Glork's claim?

No, I am just a user. I believe Glork's claim - my role PM says I would be interested in switching to Linux, but never got around to it. I stated this before to S_B. My take would be that Glork is a hardcore Windows user with no desire to switch.

It is possible that the hardcore users of proprietary software are scum (e.g., Glork), whereas the regular users (e.g., myself) are town.

Possible, but it requires a reading deficit on your part. She advertised her ability as one that converts scum.

For the seventh time, I thought that perhaps S_B's role had more applications than her statement suggested prima facie. Given the complex nature of this game, I don't see why you consider this possibility so foreign.

The plausibility of your mod-enforced late Miller claim is decreased by a lack of prohibition on Fishy's part IMO. I agree that SSK should have just claimed Miller yesterday, though. There was a chance an investigative role could have wasted a shot on him -- but I guess it at least would've confirmed sanity.

All I can say is there is obvbastardmodding going on here and I did what I could.

Huh? The cop result is SSK's, and it existed yesterday. The only other thing you could mean is UK's ability, which was apparently roleblocked (unless SSK is lying and has no ability). Also, when did you like a Vaya lynch yesterday?

I liked a Vaya lynch multiple times yesterday - go re-read me. You are right on the cop issue - I got confused during my read of D2. I am going to re-evaulate Vaya.

[Vaya]

Guys, I think Almaster is telling the truth here.

Unvote

It may very well be that Glork really was a death miller.

Read over some things that Glork said earlier here, it seems to go along perfectly with what Alma's claiming.

I think there's a definite theme of not being able to claim full info D1. I know there's a hugely signifcant part of my role that I can't claim until D2. Assuming I live to D2 (which is never a safe assumption :/), I plan on fullclaiming in my very first post of the day.

BTW, if I get killed tonight, I'm innocent. Just an FYI.

^How'd we all manage to miss this one?

I said I'd fully claim in my first post of D2, but that if I die before then, trust that I'm innocent. I'm not going to say anything more at the time.

Bleh. In the interests of not mislynching Faraday, I'm going to share a little information.


Remember way back at the very start of the game, when people were wondering about the vagueness of "partial-reveal," and I posted this:

IIIIIIIII know what it means

But I'm not gonna say.

Why not?

I dun wanna.

The partial-reveal means that dead players will be revealed as "Guilty" or "Innocent" without additional information. This jives

perfectly

with what Faraday claimed as getting for his investigation results, so either he happened to guess at how alignments/investigations would work (very highly unlikely), he had inside information about reveals as scum (unlikely at best, though possible), or he's telling the truth.

^A little odd though that Glork seems to know that he's a death miller, and Almaster doesn't(maybe Alma isn't one). Don't think that makes Alma scum though.

Public Service Announcement:

In this game, it is a terrible idea to assume that someone is not a miller simply because they have not claimed miller. Claiming miller on another day is not a scum tell. If you are an investigative role and you got a guilty, it is highly likely that your result is wrong.

That is all.

:goodposting:

^Probably the post that made Glork think Alma is protown. Also, what Alma says here gives credibility to his miller claim now.

I think that Alma has a clause in his role PM very similar to mine, and I have reason to believe that another player might have a similar clause as well. That is enough for me to keep Alma (and that other player) alive until tomorrow, when we'll have a little more information to share.

A question Almaster. Do you have any idea who this other player may be?

Unless this is some elaborate scum-gambit by Glork, or Almaster's making an incredibly consistent fakeclaim(both very unlikely), Alma's probably town. Can anyone think of how this couldn't or isn't likely to be true?

[Iecerint]

Except for that GlorkDM isn't Alma's position, nothing to complain about. I'm not sure whether GlorkDM or GlorkTraitor is simpler.

The post I thought Glork was alluding to D1 was that pre-game numbers post. Glork made a similar one just after that. I had assumed they were masons who could indicate themselves to one another that way or something.

Alma, can you explain that post?

[Iecerint]

Except for that GlorkDM isn't Alma's position, nothing to complain about. I'm not sure whether GlorkDM or GlorkTraitor is simpler, though.

Alma, I'm aware that you have indicated many times (maybe as many as seven) that you misunderstood SW or thought there was more to her role such that she could also de-miller you or something. That doesn't mean I am required to no longer find it suspicious. I still think it was bizarre.

The Alma post I thought Glork was alluding to D1 was that pre-game numbers post. Glork made a similar one just after that. I had assumed (until the conversion request) they were masons or something who could indicate themselves to one another that way or something.

Alma, can you explain that post? Your claim doesn't really cover it.

[Pomegranate]

First, that isn't clear at all. Second...I guess your take on Glork's flip is that he was a death miller? If so, do you have reason to believe that you are also a death miller? If so, why haven't you said as much?

No, that isn't my take. Glork was killed by someone affiliated with Microsoft. This means their are either competing mafia factions OR faction alignment has nothing to do with innocent/guilty. Since I am a Winblows user and my win condition is with the town, I consider the latter to be true.

But I think Microsuck and Winblows are connected somehow, for obvious reasoning. Why do you think they aren't?

[Pomegranate]

EBWOP:

First, that isn't clear at all. Second...I guess your take on Glork's flip is that he was a death miller? If so, do you have reason to believe that you are also a death miller? If so, why haven't you said as much?

No, that isn't my take. Glork was killed by someone affiliated with Microsoft. This means their are either competing mafia factions OR faction alignment has nothing to do with innocent/guilty. Since I am a Winblows user and my win condition is with the town, I consider the latter to be true.

But I think Microsuck and Winblows are connected somehow, for obvious reasoning. Why do you think they aren't?

I understand that since you're a WB user you don't think so. But Glork was affiliated with WB, and that's partly where my question comes from.

[Vaya]

Except for that GlorkDM isn't Alma's position, nothing to complain about. I'm not sure whether GlorkDM or GlorkTraitor is simpler.

Almaster may not be in the exact same position as Glork(Glork was a self-aware death miller, Alma appears to just be a miller), but that doesn't really matter. Glork was aware of Almaster's role because his and Alma's were similar, and made many posts alluding to it. That's all that matters.

I don't think its possible for Glork to have been a Traitor. Alma's claim goes

too

well with things Glork said and what he himself, before Glork said anything, had said Day 1.

I don't think its possible for Alma to be lying scum here at all unless Glork and Alma are buddies who spoke to each other pre-game and prepared this very elaborate fakeclaim, which would make the Glork-Traitor theory you're operating under impossible anyway(I feel there's next to no chance this is actually the case).

The Alma post I thought Glork was alluding to D1 was that pre-game numbers post. Glork made a similar one just after that. I had assumed (until the conversion request) they were masons or something who could indicate themselves to one another that way or something.

Alma, can you explain that post? Your claim doesn't really cover it.

I'm not going to answer for Almaster here, but I just want to point out that Glork never mentioned anything to even suggest that this post was the one. You jumped to that conclusion all on your own. I find it far more plausible to believe the post I referred to was the one that let him catch on to Almaster.

[Iecerint]

Well, Glork never said anything to mention that the post you've indicated was the one, either, that I can tell. To the extent that I'm "jumping" (and, as I vacuously could only guess at that Glork was referring to and he never told us, I suppose I am, at that), so are you.

I buy that the GlorkDM view is possible -- hell, I was the first one to mention it -- but I do not agree that GlorkTraitor is impossible or even unlikely. Breadcrumbs make it at least as likely that Glork was a traitor and Alma is scum.

I don't see why a huge conspiracy is necessary, particularly not on Alma's part. As far as I can tell, it just requires one post from Alma to set up the Miller claim (or that's all there is on his part, at least). It's worth noting that, depending on the chronology of that post (specifically, whether it came before or after Faraday's can't-claim-my-name claim; I think he was the first person to mention that), it may be more telling. But Alma certainly didn't say anything matching that claim "too well" early on, except that he is associated with WBs.

Speaking of that -- how did Glork and Alma react to Faraday's claim and subsequent wagon? If you're correct, and the "thing in the PM" he alluded to involved delayed claims rather than a role involving the number business, I'd imagine they'd have backed off after he mentioned that, or at least advocated waiting until D2 for judgment. I'll have to check whether that's what happened.

[Iecerint]

Well, Glork never said anything to mention that the post you've indicated was the one, either, that I can tell. To the extent that I'm "jumping" (and, as I vacuously could only guess at that Glork was referring to and he never told us, I suppose I am, at that), so are you.

I buy that the GlorkDM view is possible -- hell, I was the first one to mention it -- but I do not agree that GlorkTraitor is impossible or even unlikely. Breadcrumbs make it at least as likely that Glork was a traitor and Alma is scum.

I don't see why a huge conspiracy is necessary, particularly not on Alma's part. As far as I can tell, it just requires one post from Alma to set up the Miller claim (or that's all there is on his part, at least). It's worth noting that, depending on the chronology of that post (specifically, whether it came before or after Faraday's can't-claim-my-name claim; I think he was the first person to mention that), it may be more telling. But Alma certainly didn't say anything matching that claim "too well" early on, except that he is associated with WBs.

Speaking of that -- how did Glork and Alma react to Faraday's claim and subsequent wagon? If you're correct, and the "thing in the PM" he alluded to involved delayed claims rather than a role involving the number business, I'd imagine they'd have backed off after he mentioned that, or at least advocated waiting until D2 for judgment. I'll have to check whether that's what happened.

[Iecerint]

Sorry. Having more trouble with the forum than usual today. <_<

[Pomegranate]

I think we all are.

[Iecerint]

Could someone explain how SSK's breadcrumb suggests miller?

It doesn't suggest "miller," but it does suggest "something is up." The miller claim fits with that. The crumb is "I have reason to believe that my results are accurate." The ultimate reason was that the information comes at a price (millerhood).

SSK, was the millerhood instant? Did you know you would specifically become a miller when you used your ability?

[Vaya]

Well, Glork never said anything to mention that the post you've indicated was the one, either, that I can tell. To the extent that I'm "jumping" (and, as I vacuously could only guess at that Glork was referring to and he never told us, I suppose I am, at that), so are you.

I'm not making any jump in logic here at all. It actually makes sense to believe that Glork, as a miller who couldn't claim until day 2, would note a post like Almaster's and realize he probably had a similar role. He even responds to it, telling Alma :goodposting:, hinting that he is aware of such millers.

Nothing suggests that Glork thought anything of Alma's confirm post. The only slightest connection that exists is that Glork also used binary to make a breadcrumb. You pretty much took that, made a huge jump, and created a connection between Alma and Glork where one didn't exist.

I buy that the GlorkDM view is possible -- hell, I was the first one to mention it -- but I do not agree that GlorkTraitor is impossible or even unlikely. Breadcrumbs make it at least as likely that Glork was a traitor and Alma is scum.

I don't see why a huge conspiracy is necessary, particularly not on Alma's part. As far as I can tell, it just requires one post from Alma to set up the Miller claim (or that's all there is on his part, at least). It's worth noting that, depending on the chronology of that post (specifically, whether it came before or after Faraday's can't-claim-my-name claim; I think he was the first person to mention that), it may be more telling. But Alma certainly didn't say anything matching that claim "too well" early on, except that he is associated with WBs.

Glork death miller is far more than just "possible", its almost definitely the case here. Iec, let me try and spell this out for you.

Glork pretty much has to be a death miller who couldn't claim until Day 2. Go read him in iso. Everything he hints about his role suggests he's a death miller. He outright tells us that if he dies tonight, he's innocent. He says he has a vital part of his role that he can't reveal until Day 2, and that he can't say anything more(being a DM is a pretty big deal, see the confusion its causing now). He likes Alma's post that talks about claiming miller at a later date not being a scumtell. He had knowledge of what the partial-reveal meant, because as a death miller, he was told what he would flip. He acts just like someone who got such a role would.

Actually, that last reason, now that I type it out, seems like pretty damning evidence that he

is

a death miller, and not just scum acting like it. I can't think of why scum would be told how they flip.

Almaster also alludes to his role in an earlier post, before Glork says anything hinting about it. In order for him to be fakeclaiming, he would have had to have successfully guessed the exact mechanics of town role that exists before he would know anything about it, and act like he had that role. There's next to no chance this actually happened.

Also, if you want to go on ignoring all the reasons that they are telling the truth, try stopping to think why they would come up with such a needlessly complicated and suspicious fakeclaim. If they wanted to claim miller, why not just claim miller and not make up all of this about not being able to claim until Day 2. Why would they make up such an unnecessary complication? And you can't say he just made it up later, so much they have said contradicts that thought in more ways than one.

Iec, I'm not sure how else to better explain this to you. This is so obviously the case in my eyes, all the evidence in their posts points to it, and it doesn't make any sense for them to be lying.

Speaking of that -- how did Glork and Alma react to Faraday's claim and subsequent wagon? If you're correct, and the "thing in the PM" he alluded to involved delayed claims rather than a role involving the number business, I'd imagine they'd have backed off after he mentioned that, or at least advocated waiting until D2 for judgment. I'll have to check whether that's what happened.

I'm not sure why you think they both should have backed off, but Glork did back off because he was a self-aware DM and knew that Faraday claimed to get results that were the same terminology as he was told he would flip. Or at least that's what I can tell from reading his post after Faraday's claim.

[Iecerint]

I think that Alma has a clause in his role PM very similar to mine, and

I have reason to believe that another player might have a similar clause as well.

That is enough for me to keep Alma (and that other player) alive until tomorrow, when we'll have a little more information to share.

This is why I think that. Glork took whatever was in the PM as evidence that Alma was town while also indicating that someone else may share thing-in-the-PM. If that thing was a D1 gag order, you'd expect him to behave the same way toward Faraday as Alma given him having claimed the D1 gag order.

I would think that Alma would also back-up Faraday's claim and avoid his wagon, because townAlma was also on gag order D1. I'd especially expect both these players to jump on the claims that Faraday's claim doesn't match, since his claim matches theirs very well.

(I haven't checked back there btw. It could be that Alma and Glork did exactly that. If they did, I'll be more inclined to agree with you.)

What do you think Glork was breadcrumbing with the binary? Deathmiller? WinBlows Loyalist? As far as I can tell, it is neither of those things. Unless he was just goofing off (highly remote), the simplest explanation (or at least the one I assumed all of D1) was that the binary post was role-related, and that Alma's role was linked to his in some way. This isn't a huge jump at all; it's trying to explain something that the current set of claims does not explain.

EBWOPish

Most of your GlorkDM information works fine with GlorkWBL. But --

He had knowledge of what the partial-reveal meant, because as a death miller, he was told what he would flip. He acts just like someone who got such a role would.

This is actually a great point. In fact, I think it trumps everything else.

Unvote

while I think about this.

[Iecerint]

OK. I went back and read. Glork's first real post is indeed of the "I think there are lots of gag order roles around," and then he switches from Faraday (I assume) to me. So this supports GlorkDM in a huge way. The alternative is indeed an absurd conspiracy.

Alma's first post is pretty similar. He says that something someone said (Phate?) is scummy in light of Faraday's claim and ultimately votes Pom. So I think Alma looks really good here. It still really really really annoys me that he asked the alignment-changer to target him, though. In retrospect, assuming this largely clears Alma, the effect of that would've been that SB would've found him guilty and inadvertently made him scum. <_<

[Iecerint]

OK. I think the side-effects of all that means the scum are here:

MafiaSSK
SocioPath
Fishythefish
Pomegranate

I believe everyone else is largely cleared given VayaGlorkAlma-Town.

[tubby216]

gawd damn puter failure, my computer crashed and i lost the notes for this game, I promise i will have some definate thoughts and opinions up as soon as i can

[MafiaSSK]

Could someone explain how SSK's breadcrumb suggests miller?

It doesn't suggest "miller," but it does suggest "something is up." The miller claim fits with that. The crumb is "I have reason to believe that my results are accurate." The ultimate reason was that the information comes at a price (millerhood).

SSK, was the millerhood instant? Did you know you would specifically become a miller when you used your ability?

Yes it was. Yes, I did.

[MafiaSSK]

OK. I think the side-effects of all that means the scum are here:

MafiaSSK
SocioPath
Fishythefish
Pomegranate

I believe everyone else is largely cleared given VayaGlorkAlma-Town.

Woah ,what? Could you please explain every one of those?

[Vaya]

Vote: Pomegrante

One thing I don't want anyone to forget about is that in the opening scene, we were told that at least one person had their alignment changed last night. I think it's important that we know who it is that might have been town yesterday but scum today, or vice versa. For that reason, tubby needs to tell us what Phate did last night, and if it was anyone else who is town, they should probably come forward now.