Mafia 107 - Christmas Time Mafia (Game over)

[diddin]

BEEEEEEEEEEEEEP. Reply in a bit.

[diddin]

Also, lulz at Bogre suggesting a wagon on people who have been wagoning. Hypocritical, much?

no

@Dizzy: I feel as if I've been able to defend my points better on my recent votes for soras and Richard than my vote for TL. I actually think soras is scum and have defended my reasoning on my vote for him on a few occasions.

Except what you're doing is that you're not providing any new thoughts on why you think sorasgoof is scum, just restating reasons posted before. Same for Richard. If sorasgoof is mafia or Richard is mafia, will you think that the other is immediate is town?

we let him use 1 of his 4 abilities and then lynch him without regarding his OTHER 3 abilities? I don't know, that doesn't really sit right. Of course if you lynch him, you can prove if he's a confirmed townie, but then what happens to the other 3 abilities he was given that you completely disregard?

I think the point is that his other three roles aren't really provable in any way. Though I do not agree with thinking today about if we should lynch him tomorrow, as situations change and the town should adapt to them, I see where Pie is coming from.

ah I see. Is it really a bad idea to let him use his other 3 roles though? Should we have to lynch him after he investigates?

FoS: diddin

Not liking you at all, the way you've been playing has been quite odd.

All right, I realized wagoning wasn't the only reason Bogre promoted a wagon on me. Misinterpreted.

I think that if one of Richard or Soras flips town, the other one is probably scum, or vice versa. But I'm

unvoting

for now, as the only real weight one holds against the other is just meaningless speculation. I thought soras was scum, but I think the soras-Richard war has caused so much confusion that what could be scumtells might be those two out to get each other.

I think saying ckd was "hell-bent" on lynching me was a bit harsh.

On CryMeARiver: If Cookie was scum, he wouldn't point out the noobishness, he would use it to his advantage to set up town lynches. His noob scorn struck me as a "watch out, the mafia's gonna take advantage of this." Konowa did the same thing earlier in the game, but hasn't really shown much noob score since the first few pages. Since CMAR has taken Cookie's place, they have the same role, which leads me to infer that CMAR is town.
[/b]

[Annachie]

Mod: Replace out

[ready2rock]

I need to go to bed now, and I'll reply to other people tomorrow, but I have a question for Konowa in his analysis of me:

Without using a WIFOM argument, explain why I would put CCARaven4 on my scum list if we are both scum. You cannot say that it is bandwagoning because there were exactly 0 votes on him at that point.

[TheLonging]

I think that if one of Richard or Soras flips town, the other one is probably scum, or vice versa. But I'm

unvoting

for now, as the only real weight one holds against the other is just meaningless speculation. I thought soras was scum, but I think the soras-Richard war has caused so much confusion that what could be scumtells might be those two out to get each other.

So you think one of them is scum, but since each are arguing with each other over "meaningless speculation"... you're saying that they might be scum because of meaningless speculation?

Everyone is speculating at this point, intentionally or not. Seems like you're arguing a point sort of dropped 1 or 2 pages ago.

[Tarballs]

16th Vote Count of Day 1

5 - sorasgoof

(DragonsofSummer, pman5595, Nicodemus, RichardGHP, TheLonging)

2 - pman5595

(Bogre, ready2rock)

2 - NavyCherub

(DizzyIzzyB13, Konowa)

2 - diddin

(Fugitive, curiouskarmadog)

1 - RichardGHP

(Parama)

1 - CCARaven4

(InflatablePie)

7 - Not voting

(malpascp, sorasgoof, Annachie, NavyCherub, CCARaven4, CryMeARiver, diddin)


With 20 alive, it takes 11 votes to lynch.

Deadline for this day is January 21st, 2010.

Starting a replacement search for Annachie.

[Nicodemus]

OK guys, we've gone 35 pages into D1, and I'd say that the amount of information that we're gathering today has sort of reached the point of diminishing returns. I feel like the game is starting to stall, people are losing interest, and the town is becoming more and more apathetic. I think we need to make a decision about who we want to lynch today (or who's lynch would be acceptable in our eyes), and then if we can come to a general consensus we make that decision.

I'm thinking that if everyone gives a top-3 list (in order of the preferred lynchee) of who they would like to see lynched today, and we compare lists and reach a verdict, it's going to get some more life into this game and bring us into tomorrow with much more information than we're going to gather in the rest of today combined. I'll go first.

My top 3 lynch candidates:
1. sorasgoof
2. diddin
3. CCARaven4

[Fugitive]

OK guys, we've gone 35 pages into D1, and I'd say that the amount of information that we're gathering today has sort of reached the point of diminishing returns. I feel like the game is starting to stall, people are losing interest, and the town is becoming more and more apathetic. I think we need to make a decision about who we want to lynch today (or who's lynch would be acceptable in our eyes), and then if we can come to a general consensus we make that decision.

I'm thinking that if everyone gives a top-3 list (in order of the preferred lynchee) of who they would like to see lynched today, and we compare lists and reach a verdict, it's going to get some more life into this game and bring us into tomorrow with much more information than we're going to gather in the rest of today combined. I'll go first.

My top 3 lynch candidates:
1. sorasgoof
2. diddin
3. CCARaven4

agreeagreeagree

This thread is just becoming a chore to read through with no real ground being made. I like this suggestion.

My top 3:
1. diddin
2. TheLonging
3. CCARaven4

[Bogre]

I think those not voting need to commit to something. Preferably pressure to Pman or diddin.

And pman needs to make a presence, and not hope Sorasgoof is lynched so he doesn't have to answer for his scumminess.

[curiouskarmadog]

My top 3 lynch candidates:
1. sorasgoof
2. diddin
3. CCARaven4

I approve of this list.

[pman5595]

Sorry for not posting more often. I've been watching the thread, but my opinion hasn't really changed enough where I believe it's worth a post. :-/

Top

three

two lynch candidates
1. sorasgoof- I still think his behavior is the scummiest. On the off chance he is not scum, I believe his lynch will tell the town enough information to make it worthwhile (mainly about Richard)
2. diddin- his behavior confuses me. He has done absolutely nothing pro-town, so the scummy things he has done show through.

honestly I don't have a third. TheLonging has seemed more and more pro-town lately. His behavior fits his vanilla claim. RichardGHP I have never wanted to lynch today. We need to let him prove himself overnight or see how sorasgoof flips if we lynch him before we should even think about lynching Richard. CCARaven was lurking. He has come back and provided some pretty good content. I do not think he is scum.

[ready2rock]

I believe I mentioned this also. Imagine the outbreak if I voted with no individual reasoning. I would be lynched in 2 minutes.

1. I didn't say no reasoning. I said quote them and add on a couple of sentences of your own thoughts.

2. There are plenty of people that have played this way so far that have gotten only 1 or 0 votes.

Also, I provided a top 3 already, but here it is in order:
1. pman5595
2. CCARaven4
3. diddin

[TheLonging]

I'd gladly go for a diddin lynch, or a CCARaven4 lynch. Maybe a sorasgoof lynch, or a pman5595 lynch but I don't think he's as scummy as he was before, although he certainly is up there. Not Richard, because I'd like to see if he can back up his claim.

1. diddin
2. CCARaven4
3. sorasgoof/pman5595

Unvote: sorasgoof

Vote: diddin

[sorasgoof]

I agree that we need to lynch someone, but not necessarily

today

. >.>

However, my top three scum list is:

1. pman
2. diddin
3. possible CCARaven

You guys already know I think pman is suspicious, as I already had my vote on him at one point, but I'll go back through the thread and pick the scummiest.

Also, I think someone said on this page that pman isn't as scummy as he was before (TheLonging actually said this). Why? Is it because he's been semi-lurking, and he hasn't been able to slip up?

If I'm lynched, I think you guys need to take a serious look at both pman and Richard. And possibly Dragonsofsummer.

[sorasgoof]

EBWOP: Number 3 on the above list should say "possibly."

[sorasgoof]

EBWOP: Add Richard to the list. I completely forgot about him.

[curiouskarmadog]

hey pman, you havent mentioned diddin previously..give me an example of diddin's "scummy things".

[TheLonging]

Also, I think someone said on this page that pman isn't as scummy as he was before (TheLonging actually said this). Why? Is it because he's been semi-lurking, and he hasn't been able to slip up?

I also included you in that statement

[ready2rock]

Just a side note, diddin and CCARaven are on everyone's list so far.

[ready2rock]

EBWOP: Not CCARaven because he is not on pman's list, but diddin still stands.

[CCARaven4]

I'm having a lot of trouble with a top three scum list, because I was so focused on Richard for a few days that I don't have anyone else on the radar at the moment. I don't really think that sorasgoof is scum, but I would agree with a pman or diddin lynch.

Top three scum:

1. pman
2. diddin
3. Richard/ckd--I don't really know if either of these guys are scum, but they've seemed suspicious to me.

[TheLonging]

I'm having a lot of trouble with a top three scum list, because I was so focused on Richard for a few days that I don't have anyone else on the radar at the moment.

3. Richard I don't really know if either of these guys are scum, but they've seemed suspicious to me.

Weren't you so fired up on making a case on him for a few real life days? You should clearly have no trouble putting him on the top of your list.

[pman5595]

hey pman, you havent mentioned diddin previously..give me an example of diddin's "scummy things".

• Eager unvote of TL after being called out
  
• taking suspicion off of navy and putting it back on richard
  
• has suspicions of richard, but doesn't vote until asked why he isn't, and AFTER richard claimed JOAT
  
• more bad reasoning for Richard
  
• votes sorasgoof for the wrong reasons (noobclaiming)
  
• thinks soras and Richard are both scum (seems very unlikely)
  
• general gut feeling of him bandwagoning, then getting off when suspicion is put on him. Seems overly defensive

I still think soras is scummier, and a diddin lynch we would learn nothing from.

[CCARaven4]

I'm having a lot of trouble with a top three scum list, because I was so focused on Richard for a few days that I don't have anyone else on the radar at the moment.

3. Richard I don't really know if either of these guys are scum, but they've seemed suspicious to me.

Weren't you so fired up on making a case on him for a few real life days? You should clearly have no trouble putting him on the top of your list.

I was very fired up on making my case, but when Pie, among others, completely killed my case, I had trouble putting him even on the list of scummy players. Basically, I had decided that Richard was scum and was pulling this very elaborate scheme to keep himself alive, and then set out to find the scumminess in his posts, which really backfired on me. The biggest thing I learned from that was to go through the posts and then pick the scum, instead of the other way around. That's why it was hard for me to even put Richard on my list, I think he's just as scummy as ckd, but for very different reasons. I still think that the elaborate plan is a small possibility, which keeps Richard on the radar, and ckd is more of a gut thing that anything, so he's not very high on the list either. As for diddin and pman, I think the scumminess there has been pointed out by many other people, and I would support a lynch of either one of these players.

[Parama]

Screw your guys' wagons.

Unvote, vote: DragonsofSummer

Nothing has changed since my last vote on him.
Not a PBPA but readin in ISO...

For insane backtracking backtracking and terrible statements for why people are scum by TheLonging see 104 and 111.

unvote vote TheLonging

I believe thats L-4 people.

Also I haven't picked up my role pm? I was pretty sure I did, and have posted once, but I will do so again just to make sure.

Opportune bandwagoning early on, plus little reason, especially since this is his 2nd post in the thread... just comes off as active lurking and bandwagon following.

DragonsofSummer- has been on BOTH of the large bandwagons. Hasn't posted much else.

You're right. I have been on both bandwagons, one in the rvs which I have no problems with especially since it only went five or six votes. The other I gave my reasons for joining. Just because I don't join in the relentless spamming of a thread does not mean I don't post content which is what you are trying to imply and I don't like it.

Also I don't know how Longing could be anymore blatantly scummy than he is being right now. Just saying.

3rd post.
You gave reasons but nothing to support them and little reasoning at all. Just because you're not a super-hyperactive poster does not give you an excuse to lurk. And up to this point you had not posted ANY sort of content, just a vote and a response to being called out.

*content*

Waffle harder please?!/sarcasm

Yeah okay, sorry that you're calling out somebody for saying more in a single post than you had said in the entire game. At least Raven is trying to play.

I do not accept the newbie card in large games. No one else should either. If you have put yourself in a position to play a large game like this one, it should be because you feel confident enough in your abilities to play this game without committing a scum tell in almost every post you have (unless your role wants you to be committing them, i.e. jester) and the way people are jumping on the "I MADE A MISTAKE!" thing and saying, oh well thats okay then really bothers me.

This is a great point, though it doesn't actually add anything to the conversation - if this had been posted along with actual content I'd be fine with it. But as it stands you're just posting with no intent to actually contribute anything specifically about Mafia 107.

@Parama: What do you think I have been "parroting" (saying that other people have already said)? I find most of my statements are things people did not say yet.

It was more a lack of content than repeating what others have said. 7th post and absolutely nothing contributed to the game.

@r2r: Any chance you will respond to the things I have said to you? If not I will stop caring that you have an fos on me because really it means nothing if you are going to fos me but ignore me.

The way you replied to ready2rock does not even inquire about a response, it was just a response itself. If you wanted him to say something you should've asked questions instead of just continuing on your merry way.

@Navy: I wasn't joking. That post contained a ludicrous amount of waffling, and The sarcasm was telling them to waffle harder. Also that is quite possibly the most ridiculous FoS I have ever seen. I only felt the need to point out it was sarcasm because this is the internet and that doesn't translate well. Also I am calling it right now that if Longing is scum so is CCA Raven for that waffletastic post.

You aren't taking this game very seriously and your post about Raven's post, instead of arguing down his points, just dismissed it as waffling and immediately called it scummy. Try harder please.

@whoever asked me the reasons behind my thinking Longing is so scummy. Various points of contradicting himself, crap reasoning up until his most recent suspicion of Richard (that is good reasoning imo), and I really hate the I made a mistake defense and find it very scummy (and a way of backtracking without actually saying the opposite of what you previously said.)

I'm so happy that you posted content that I have nothing to say about this. At least you're trying to some extent :/

Also

FoS RichardGHP, and diddin

Wow, care to explain that at all? You barely mentioned these two in your posts and said nothing about them being scum. What is the point of this double FoS?

Also if you want to see someone who says absolutely nothing original look at thelonging as well.

Backtracking to something I said a while back and the town was past discussing, plus continued tunneling on TheLonging without any proof of scumminess. You could've at least provided examples of his posts, y'know.

All in all, I'm not sure what about the TheLonging situation makes Cookie think I'm scum. I agree that I was waffling, but I really don't see that post as scummy, I'm sorry.

Of course you don't.

Thanks for contributing to this discussion and not using ad hominems. /sarcasm.
BTW, this is the 10 post mark. See how much DoS has added in ten posts?
...
Nothing but thin reasons why he believes TheLonging to be scum and a few game theory posts that are unnecessary.

A:

@Parama: I responded to you already, and you really aren't one to accuse me of lurking.

B:

Also until you point out why you think I was active lurking like I asked of you in my last response to your FoS I will not cave to a baseless accusation.

C:

It is also obvious to me you aren't even reading the thread because my post about someone saying absolutely nothing original had nothing to do with your post.

D:

The longing said the same exact thing as other players multiple times and I was pointing it out.

E:

A note to all the players in this game, if you are going to attack me bring some facts, otherwise I will ignore you starting now.

I would personally call this the nail in the coffin. Separate responses marked by bold letters in the paragraph.
A. You responded to one comment I posted earlier, dismissing it completely. Great. What a response.
B. You did not ask me anything about my suspicions, you simply dismissed my question. And my accusation certainly wasn't baseless, the posts above this point are what prove it.
C. If I wasn't reading the thread, I wouldn't have reasons to vote for you. The way you posted implies that it was a continuation of your response to me calling you out for "parroting", a response that is trying to deflect suspicion away from you towards TheLonging using the same argument that I used as a base for my suspicions.
D. This is just repeating exactly what you just said and what you said in your previous post about parroting. Unnecessary fluff.
E. Basically, intent to ACTIVELY IGNORE ALL SUSPICION DIRECTED TOWARDS YOU. Um, if this isn't the scummiest thing in this thread then I don't know what is. Maybe I'll stumble upon something worse when I get farther in the thread reading you in ISO.

A note to all the players in this game, if you are going to attack me bring some facts, otherwise I will ignore you starting now.

Over-defensive much?

Not really Just Parama and r2r pissed me off with DoS is scummy look! then many pages later after I have responded to them DoS is still scummy but I would like a response from him. I'm just saying, If you are going to call me scummy for a reason I will ignore you unless you give me reason not to ignore you.

So you're annoyed that people are suspecting you? In a game based solely on suspicions of other players? This isn't just intent to ignore suspicion; this is straight up intent to not play. And if someone calls another person scummy and has a reason behind it, WHY IN GOD'S NAME WOULD YOU IGNORE THEM? REALLY? REEEAAAALLLLYYYY?
*facepalm*

I thought the Jack could only be PT? I've never heard of a Pro-Mafia Jack.

This post screams "Oh shit I've been caught" to me by the way. Its way too nervous.

unvote vote RichardGHP

More opportune bandwagoning. This is the first DoS has really said about Richard. Why does he think Richard is scum? The world may never know.

@Cookie: Are you saying you disagree about that post? Also diddin was fos'd for his voting of no lynch.

Thanks for clarifying your diddin suspicion several pages after the fact.

@Cookie: No I don't. If I don't feel like it I never have to give a reason for anything. In fact there are a great number of players on this site that play exactly that way. Also You have to play with a certain amount of gut in this game you will never be 100% certain of anything. Thats what my gut tells me about that post, and that is the post that put me over the edge on him. or would you rather I said everything everyone else has said about him again in my vote post to?

Just because you don't want to give a reason doesn't mean you don't need to give a reason. I can understand that some people's metas are like that but when called out for a reason, it's a pretty good idea to give one. And playing with gut is fine, but playing solely with gut will get you nowhere.

unvote vote sorasgoof

Too many people doing to many scummy things in this game.

Okay, so this isn't bandwagoning, but you didn't really say why soras is scummy or which specific posts make you feel he's scum. All your suspicions are baseless and reasonless. It's just not a pro-town thing to do at all. If this is how you normally play then I'm surprised you didn't get policy lynched right off the bat. If I ever play with you again (likely) I'll make sure that it happens.

@everyone: Stop speculating on roles in this game. Role speculation, and night action speculation are both scummy. Hence my vote on Soras, he basically just tried to guide the night actions of multiple players in this game, some of which might not even exist.

I'll remember this so I can point out obvious contradictions in your recent speculation posts.

@cks: I do, but I would rather hold off on my thoughts for now.

@cookie: I will give thoughts on the case I am currently pursuing and anything that might be connected to that case. Also are you really going to bust my balls over an unexplained fos?

I'll be sure to comment on this content assuming you actually posted it. And yes, I'm glad EC is calling you out for not explaining your reasons for voting.

(on the topic of why soras is scummy)

The answer is he is backtracking and sucking at it.

Well thanks for finally clearing up your vote a couple pages back. Just that reason and nothing else? I don't see how you think someone is scum based solely on backtracking.
Also, that is post 20 according to my count. DoS is averaging 1 post a page at this point, including two posts to fix broken bbcode.
Now, this might come as a shocker: this is DoS' next post, 6 whole pages later. Lurk much?

@ckd: I will post my thoughts on things when day 2 starts most likely. The lynch we end with today will influence a couple of things.

No, we want your thoughts right now. We've been wanting your thoughts for quite a while. You refused to deliver them. That content you promise never showed up, as expected.

@DizzyIzzy: I was on a rvs wagon, 2 wagons I agreed with (one of which I still would have no problem lynching, Richard), and I started the Sora wagon.

You did not START the soras wagon, you were just the first to vote for him. You did nothing to build a case and get others to agree with you, you just simply stated he was scummy and voted.
Also, what has changed your read on TheLonging since the wagon? You were tunneling him before and now you think he wouldn't be a good lynch? You never explained what changed your opinion on TheLonging.

I am alright with lynching either Soras or Richard today because either would be full of information at this point.

I would agree. That does not mean I find your votes acceptable, just that they aren't terrible people to lynch. I am willing to say that either of these lynches would still sit fine with me, although I obviously would prefer a DoS lynch the most.

And then 6 more pages later:

I still believe you are scum Sora.

@Dizzy: I gave reasons for being on every wagon I've been on when I joined it. I saw no reason to reiterate that when asked your question.

Okay, why do you still believe soras is scum? Also, you did give "reasons" but there weren't very many for any of the wagons and they were all paper-thin.

I can explain it ckd. Scum group= Soras, diddin, CCARaven, ?. I don't know who their 4th buddy is yet, but I am fairly certain that if any of those three is scum Richard is not, and vice versa. The pushing is just too hard for it to be bussing at this point.

Okay, where did Raven and diddin suspicions come from? You haven't said anything on either of them since near the start of the day. Why are you speculating about the number of mafia? How do you know there's 4 scum? How would Richard being scum eliminate the possibility that the other three are also scum? One scum flip does not eliminate 3 other possible scum lynches based solely on your arguments. It almost seems like you're buddying up with someone here, though I can't tell who. I wouldn't think you're scum with Richard or soras, you've been too intent on their lynches. So I guess when DoS flips scum, diddin and Raven would be great places to continue our scumhunting, assuming those two aren't lynched today, which would be unfortunate. Though if either flips scum, then I have a DoS scum connection to further my case.

We don't know there are 4. It is just an average number for a normal game this size. So I am guessing, and trying to fit groups into 4s, if later it becomes known that it is more or less than that I will have to realign my analysis to work with the new information.

Wasn't it you who earlier said:

@everyone: Stop speculating on roles in this game. Role speculation, and night action speculation are both scummy. Hence my vote on Soras, he basically just tried to guide the night actions of multiple players in this game, some of which might not even exist.

Contradiction much? Technically, speculating the number of mafia players is not much different from speculating roles; and in the end both distract the town and don't lead to relevant discussion. So now you're trying to distract.

DoS's total post count in this thread: 24.
tl;dr: You are active lurking. You are not providing reasons for your votes. You are not contributing to discussion. You have stated an intent to ignore suspicion cast upon you. You have stated intent to not play. You have contradicted yourself multiple times.
You are scum, DragonsofSummer.
Please, guys, if we're going to lynch somebody today, let's lynch DragonsofSummer. In the incredibly unlikely event that he isn't scum, he's still the most anti-town player by far.
Again, for emphasis:

Vote: DragonsofSummer

This isn't the content I was expecting to get around to posting, but I think this proves beyond a doubt that DoS is scum. Sorry for my recent inactivity.