Mini 905- Mafia in Sienna OVER
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Kitten4u Goon
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Wickedestjr Jack of All Trades
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Okay.pman wrote:can you please explain your reasons?
Firstly:
This seems rather convenient considering you had enough information to determine the case on Leaf was "complete crap" (Post 82) and that he was an innocent townie(Post 84). Its much easier to call somebody town then it is to call somebody scum.pman wrote:right now, no one strikes me as particularly scummy. It is only page 4, about 24 hours out of the RVS. But, if I had to lynch one person right now, it would be ConfidAnon. Something strikes me a little bit odd about how he attacked leaf for asking a question, and then saying we needed a bandwagon.
Secondly:
This seems to contradict this:pman wrote:
Let's hope not. Why the bandwagon then?ConfidAnon wrote:It's not like any of us would let a lynch happen on Page 4, and he's nowhere close to a lynch.
In the earlier quote you vote MME because you feel like wagoning to get out of the RVS, yet in the later quote, you seem to have a problem with a bandwagon that does form.pman wrote:Vote: My Milked Eek
*joins largest wagon in attempt to get us out of the RVS*
Thirdly:
The bolded bit seems to contradictory with his previous posts. Earlier he said this:pman wrote:I did not say asking the question made him pro-town. I said it did not make him scummy.People were using that as a reason for their vote. I also did not say that asking the question means he is scum hunting.I said I thought he was just taking it seriously and trying to hunt scum instead of joking around and doing nothing for the town
So pman is of the belief that Leaf is scumhunting. However, pman's post where he says this, Leaf had only asked questions. If you don't believe me, look at Leaf in iso. His first 9 posts came before pman explained his town read. So, this indicates that pman either thinks asking questions is scumhunting which contradicts the bolded in the post above, or he is just making stuff up which means he's scum.pman5595 wrote:
That's just my inference from his posts so far. He is just scumhunting.Sotty7 wrote:How do you know Leaf is an innocent townie?
Fourthly:
This just looks to me like a useless vote. He even tells Ellibereth what to do to make him unvote, so it doesn't look to me like a good example of a pressure vote. Also, the interesting thing is that if Ellibereth had stopped joking around, then pman would have unvoted. So, this implies that he wasn't actually suspicious, because if he thought Ellibereth's joking was scummy, then Ellibereth's joking coming to an end wouldn't be a good reason for townpman to unvote. So, if it is not a pressure vote and not a vote to represent a suspicion, it just looks like a vote designed to appear useful. It was a good move for pmanscum, because it allows him to:pman wrote:Vote: Ellibereth
You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.
If you aren't joking around... then my vote should really stay on you.
*appear useful by trying to make Ellibereth contribute
*puts him in a position to either be suspicious of Ellibereth or not suspicious of Ellibereth, whenever he gets a good idea about what the town thinks
I'm not finished with this case."You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. -Wayne Gretzky"
-Wickedestjr-
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Wickedestjr Jack of All Trades
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Continuing on...
Point 5:
pman says if Ellibereth wasn't joking then his vote should really stay on him. However, when Ellibereth says he wasn't joking, pman seems to give Ellibereth an opening to escape from the vote by making the above post.pman5595 wrote:EBWOP: sorry here's what I was trying to submit
then tell me your reasoning of the leafsnail vote. Please include something other than "gut".Ellibereth wrote:
I'm not joking.pman5595 wrote:Ellibereth wrote:
Bullshitpman wrote: Gut should never be the only reason to think someone is mafia. If you cannot find any actual evidence that they are mafia, you should not target themVote: Ellibereth
You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.
If you aren't joking around... then my vote should really stay on you.
Point 6:
No, you did say you were voting Ellibereth for joking in these quotes:pman5595 wrote:
No, it was because you were (and are) acting stupidly. If the acting stupid was a joke, I would unvote when you stop. But you say the acting stupid is not a joke. That is an even better reason to vote for you. Give me good reasons that you are voting for leafsnail, or unvote if you cannot find any.Ellibereth wrote:Pman, I'M NOT JOKING.
And the original reason for your vote in 102 was because you thought I was joking, correct?
pman wrote:You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.
Stop contradicting yourself scum.pman wrote:If I could vote for you twice I would.
WE ARE OUT OF THE JOKING PERIOD
Point 7:
pman pulls this point out of nowhere to show that he was voting for Elli because he thought he was scum. However, like I pointed out in my previous post, pman was willing to unvote Elli if she stopped JOKING, so obviously it wasn't a vote because he thought Elli was scum.pman5595 wrote:
your unexplained targeting of leaf gives me extremely scummy vibes.Ellibereth wrote:
What happened to voting only when you thought people were scum?pman5595 wrote:
No, it was because you were (and are) acting stupidly. If the acting stupid was a joke, I would unvote when you stop. But you say the acting stupid is not a joke. That is an even better reason to vote for you. Give me good reasons that you are voting for leafsnail, or unvote if you cannot find any.Ellibereth wrote:Pman, I'M NOT JOKING.
And the original reason for your vote in 102 was because you thought I was joking, correct?
Point 8:
Voting with no reasoning suddenly indicates stupidity now, so conveniently enough, he can no pretend as if it was a part of his case.pman5595 wrote:
it depends on how they are acting stupidlyEllibereth wrote:Ok, so stupid = scummy according to you right now, correct?
if they are acting stupidly by voting for someone with no reasoning, yes.
Point 9:
Oh! So now Elli's voting without reason is annoying! I thought it was stupid or scummy! I must've forgotten that annoying=stupid. Silly me. Also, despite Elli's joking continuing on, you don't return your vote to him. Interesting.pman wrote:If nobody could tell, I was being extremely sarcastic with that vote and the comments afterward, and they were meant to show Elli how annoying what he is doing is. unvote: Wickedestjr
I am 95% sure that pman is scum and we should lynch him."You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. -Wayne Gretzky"
-Wickedestjr-
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Wickedestjr Jack of All Trades
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Continuing on...
Point 5:
pman says if Ellibereth wasn't joking then his vote should really stay on him. However, when Ellibereth says he wasn't joking, pman seems to give Ellibereth an opening to escape from the vote by making the above post.pman5595 wrote:EBWOP: sorry here's what I was trying to submit
then tell me your reasoning of the leafsnail vote. Please include something other than "gut".Ellibereth wrote:
I'm not joking.pman5595 wrote:Ellibereth wrote:
Bullshitpman wrote: Gut should never be the only reason to think someone is mafia. If you cannot find any actual evidence that they are mafia, you should not target themVote: Ellibereth
You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.
If you aren't joking around... then my vote should really stay on you.
Point 6:
No, you did say you were voting Ellibereth for joking in these quotes:pman5595 wrote:
No, it was because you were (and are) acting stupidly. If the acting stupid was a joke, I would unvote when you stop. But you say the acting stupid is not a joke. That is an even better reason to vote for you. Give me good reasons that you are voting for leafsnail, or unvote if you cannot find any.Ellibereth wrote:Pman, I'M NOT JOKING.
And the original reason for your vote in 102 was because you thought I was joking, correct?
pman wrote:You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.
Stop contradicting yourself scum.pman wrote:If I could vote for you twice I would.
WE ARE OUT OF THE JOKING PERIOD
Point 7:
pman pulls this point out of nowhere to show that he was voting for Elli because he thought he was scum. However, like I pointed out in my previous post, pman was willing to unvote Elli if she stopped JOKING, so obviously it wasn't a vote because he thought Elli was scum.pman5595 wrote:
your unexplained targeting of leaf gives me extremely scummy vibes.Ellibereth wrote:
What happened to voting only when you thought people were scum?pman5595 wrote:
No, it was because you were (and are) acting stupidly. If the acting stupid was a joke, I would unvote when you stop. But you say the acting stupid is not a joke. That is an even better reason to vote for you. Give me good reasons that you are voting for leafsnail, or unvote if you cannot find any.Ellibereth wrote:Pman, I'M NOT JOKING.
And the original reason for your vote in 102 was because you thought I was joking, correct?
Point 8:
Voting with no reasoning suddenly indicates stupidity now, so conveniently enough, he can no pretend as if it was a part of his case.pman5595 wrote:
it depends on how they are acting stupidlyEllibereth wrote:Ok, so stupid = scummy according to you right now, correct?
if they are acting stupidly by voting for someone with no reasoning, yes.
Point 9:
Oh! So now Elli's voting without reason is annoying! I thought it was stupid or scummy! I must've forgotten that annoying=stupid. Silly me. Also, despite Elli's joking continuing on, you don't return your vote to him. Interesting.pman wrote:If nobody could tell, I was being extremely sarcastic with that vote and the comments afterward, and they were meant to show Elli how annoying what he is doing is. unvote: Wickedestjr
I am 95% sure that pman is scum and we should lynch him."You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. -Wayne Gretzky"
-Wickedestjr-
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Oman NK Immune Miller Vig
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Nope you and I fundamentally disagree on some theory points. It's neither here nor there really.Ythill wrote:Your lack of insight is uncharacteristic. Is that what an Oman scum-slip looks like?
either will work, but we've already got a kitten claim. and worst case we lynch a townie.sotty7 wrote:Are you saying that with the Elli/Kitten link we should lynch Kitten first because of the townie claim?
Anyway, I really hope nobody makes me sift for quotes for this because it's L-1, but like I said: If kitten doesn't hang, then Elli should.
Unvote Vote: ElliCoD!It's unfortunate that good oral sex excuses bad chemistry. - Korts-
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Leafsnail Goon
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...Huh. I feel that Kitten has been let of the hook for not doing anything in particular. The only thing that saved her is Elli's vote flip, and I feel that some people have changed bandwagons opportunistically.
But when combined with the newbtells I've been getting off Ellibereth, it seems to point me towards town. Newb town has a tendancy to be useless like this while newbscum tends to aim to please more.Sotty7 wrote:Don't like this justification. Wouldn't scum just as likely ignore questions they don't want to answer? Wouldn't town want to answer all the questions put to them to make sure people see their towness?
It's just that... well... I'm getting a sense of deja vu. Virtually every mafia game I've ever played has had a day one in which a newb has slipped up, acted stupid and got lynched for it, while the actual scum are ignored. A lot of Elli's behaviour reminds me of this. I suppose you could say he'd be a liability at lylo anyway, but this is null - lynching a town player, regardless of ability, puts us one mislynch closer to lylo.
Two important questions to those on the Ellibereth wagon -
1. Is Ellibereth your number one choice for a lynch (if you could pick anyone)? If not, who is?
2. If you switched over from another wagon, what did that person do to make themselves look more town in your eyes? If they didn't, are you going to continue pursuing them over it tomorrow?-
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Ellibereth Deus ex Machina
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I actually agree that lynching me today wouldn't be the worst move in the world.
The only two realistic look lynches that look like they'll actually happen right now or Kitten and myself. I am pretty sure Kitten is town, and from a completely concrete point of view our lives are worth the same. Yes, I am claiming that I'm from Vermont.
Leafy, I do ask of you not to call me a newb and apply newbtown tells on me. I will assure you that I am not one and that I'm just a lazy person who goes completely on his gut D1 and does not like to type out cases.
Off the top of my head reads:
TOWN: Oman, Ythill, Kitten, Ctd, Wick
NULL: Sotty, Leaf, Pman, Eek
SCUM: Budja, Thesp
If either Budja or Thesp flip scum, I find the other very likely scum. My gut found the Confid - Thesp relationship this game different than the other game and I could feel more distancing coming this time.
If I'm wrong and Kitten flips scum later, Sotty is very likely scum with her.
Pman, Sotty leans more town than scum, but they're still in Nullland.
Leaf, Eek, leans more scum that town, but they're still in Nullland.
I'm not going to go type up a case on anyone now. But just to humor me:
Vote: Budjaeven though it probably won't happen today. I hope you guys string him up after I go though.
Lynch all LiarsBudja wrote:Budja wrote:I will be absent Fri-Sun AEST.
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(Yes, I will post today before I leave tomorrow)-
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Leafsnail Goon
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Ellibereth Deus ex Machina
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Leafsnail Goon
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Ellibereth Deus ex Machina
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Ythill Fabio
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Wick needs to take a seat in the hotseat if Elli flips scum. Otherwise, I'm open to look into pman more closely tomorrow. Two wagons is enough for today.
I was never interested in a kitten lynch although I did let you off the hook to pursue Elli. Are you going to complain about that?Leaf wrote:I feel that Kitten has been let of the hook for not doing anything in particular.
Appeal to emotion noted... and Elli is obviously not a n00b. I can't even fathom why you'd say such a thing as town. Which people do you feel were being opportunist?
Please nobody hammer before kitten posts.Record:Town 10W/15LScum 4W/1LOther 2W/2LNewbie 1L
"So yeah, it is a sign from the angels." ~CooLDoG-
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Oman NK Immune Miller Vig
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Ellibereth Deus ex Machina
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Oman NK Immune Miller Vig
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Wickedestjr Jack of All Trades
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Darkstrike_11 Goon
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Vote Count as of post 315
Ellibereth (6): [My Milked Eek, pman5595, Sotty7, Thesp, Ythill, Oman]
Kitten4u (2): [Leafsnail, CrashTextDummie]
Leafsnail (2): [Budja, Kitten4u]
pman5595 (1): [Wickedestjr]
Budja (1): [Ellibereth]
Not Voting:
With 12 Players, a majority of 7 is needed for a lynch.
Deadline is 10pm, 24th Jan 2010 (GMT)-
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Ythill Fabio
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Sorry Wick, I did comment but it was very brief. I think the case makes sense to a certain degree and the first point is very valid, but you slipped in a lot of null points, semantics, and rhetoric. If you're really 95% sure he's scum, then you're seriously overreacting.
The reason I questioned your link to Elli in #311 was more for timing than content, FYI.Record:Town 10W/15LScum 4W/1LOther 2W/2LNewbie 1L
"So yeah, it is a sign from the angels." ~CooLDoG-
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Oman NK Immune Miller Vig
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Oman NK Immune Miller Vig
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HEY EVERYONE! Even though I caleld you all smell yhippies. I still love you punks to death. Please don't think that I don't love you. I really do, we just dsee differently on things.
That and I'm a cunt.
Oh man, Thesp is gonna be angry about that one.It's unfortunate that good oral sex excuses bad chemistry. - Korts-
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Sotty7 That Damn Good
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I have the opposite impression of Elli than you do. I doubt very much he is a newb, can you show me what these newbtells actually are?Leafsnail Post 305 wrote:
But when combined with the newbtells I've been getting off Ellibereth, it seems to point me towards town. Newb town has a tendancy to be useless like this while newbscum tends to aim to please more.Sotty7 wrote:Don't like this justification. Wouldn't scum just as likely ignore questions they don't want to answer? Wouldn't town want to answer all the questions put to them to make sure people see their towness?
I see you have changed your characterization of Elli to obstructive town now. If you concede that he is no longer a newb, where are you still cutting him slack?
I'm breezing though right now but I will read Wick's case on pnman this afternoon.-
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pman5595 Goon
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My Milked Eek Mafia Scum
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Thesp Supersaint
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I feel that Kitten has been let off the hook because Ellibereth is more likely to be scum.Leafsnail wrote:...Huh. I feel that Kitten has been let of the hook for not doing anything in particular.
I'm down with that.Ellibereth wrote:Vote: Budja even though it probably won't happen today. I hope you guys string him up after I go though.
Agreed.Ythill wrote:Wick needs to take a seat in the hotseat if Elli flips scum. Otherwise, I'm open to look into pman more closely tomorrow. Two wagons is enough for today.
I'm having a hard time not skimming it each time I go to read it. I'm happy to re-read him during the night. I don't remember him standing out very much (which could be a sign you're right, but I will look later).Wickedestjr wrote:So... what do you guys think about the case? I skimmed through and only one person had commented.
I'm totally supportive of an Ellibereth hammer, though I am respectful of Ythill's request for this to wait until Kitten4u has posted. I wouldn't mind waiting for My Milked Eek, Budja and pman5595 to weigh in a bit more, but I'm not interested in tarrying until deadline."When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -Reiner Knizia
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Kitten4u Goon
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Still busy. Quick post incoming.
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I was just answering your question.Leafy wrote:This is my problem. You only did it in order to try and get some suspicion off you
So you admit it was an attack.Leafy wrote:But it applies no pressure and tells you nothing to vaguely say something is "disingenuous". You made no specific allegations and it didn't contribute to your weak attack at all.
What makes me worse than Leaf then?Oman wrote:I never said that he didn't. but you're doing it again. I'm saying you're scummy for this, and you're trying to pass it off to someone else.
They're synonymous in Kitten Language.Oman wrote:Firstly there is the General CTD issue, not any specific quotes, but Kitten was very light on him, until he started fighting back he went from just "weird" to "scummy".
That's fine. I was more interested in hearing from the people that said I was using craplogic.Thesp wrote:I have a hard time not skimming walls when replying. I read them once, but replying point-by-point is a drain on town resources.
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Wicked's case is okay imo. It addresses some of the things I was worried about when I said that I had a weak scum read on pman (most notably the Leaf being an "innocent townie" stuff), but I think that he's over reacting on some thing (the early Elli vote comes to mind, it was early in the day so no votes are really throw away at that point imo).
I still prefer a Leaf lynch at this point, but I'm not against an Elli one.
I have to go now, but I *might* be back on later.
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