Newbie 869 - Game over

[Zorblag]

@jee, taking a look at that comment from Mr. Finch (the roleblocker might have roleblocked SensFan and not submitted a kill) I think that if the roleblocker was under the impression that they could only do one thing or the other for whatever reason they really should have chosen to roleblock SensFan rather than anyone else (if you're not killing there's no need to block the doctor.) Without having heard from SensFan yet about his investigation results I think that's a good thing to have thought of to explain the no kill. A roleblocker would have clearly had the chance to think through their opportunities and might be a bit more likely to come up with it but I don't think it's at all unreasonable for town to have thought of it either.

@Nachomamma8, I don't know that I'm quite sure what statement of Pulidar's I pointed out that you might find scummy. Was it perhaps his answer to the question of what he made of the scum kill?

@Deer, I have some trouble believing that you went from finding Nachomamma8 quite a bit more scummy than Pulindar in Post 505 to voting for him in Post 522 apparently just because he's expressed worries about getting lynched or killed during the night. In that span Nachomamma8 posted three times and Pulindar posted twice. That's a very large apparent change of opinion for that short a stretch. Was there really no other reason for it?

The case that I see against you consists mainly of the following:

1. Defending Ellibereth day one.
2. Consistently having Ellibereth high on your list of suspects without actually moving to lynch him until after it was obviously going to happen at which point you hammered.
3. Wanting to move away from any suspicion of Ellibereth on day two after his cop claim barring a counter claim. That's an even bigger deal given that there's a roleblocker in the game and that so far as they knew there was a decent chance of there not being any power roles at all and if there were it serves to draw one out.
4. Wanting to lynch an un-counter claimed power role the next day in jee.
5. It looks like you're trying to find the wagon other than yourself that will gain traction today.

I'm not sure if that's what the others are working with but I'm happy to see you address those points. We don't seem to be moving along very quickly at this point and I think that you've got a pretty reasonable chance of being scum here. After you've had a chance to say anything you'd like and the other have had their chance to input I'm probably ready to hammer. If the deadline were going to be an issue I wouldn't have any trouble hammering now but so long as the game is moving forward there's no need to rush things.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Deer]

If you're ready to hammer, go ahead and do it. I don't really feel the need to address those points - I can tell already it's not going to change your mind. I don't want to waste my time building a whole case defending myself when I'm down here already. All I can say is that I'm town and I'm sorry for playing such a scummy game.

[Zorblag]

And with that post any hesitation I might have had about hammering is gone. I'll give people today a chance to say whatever they'd like to and I'll hammer this evening. I would have no problem with Pulindar hammering instead if he'd like, I'm just giving everyone a courtesy day to post.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Pulindar]

I'll leave you the honors Zorb *bows*


As for your reasons, reading them and rereading through I definitely see them, but I wasn't overtly using them in my mind. Honestly everyone else just seems to be playing a town game to me, I'm trying to find stuff but having a difficult time. I point out all the little things I see, but nothings been strong enough to hold my full focus just yet.

[Zorblag]

Vote: Deer

Ideally we've now won the game and everything I say after this doesn't matter. If we haven't then remember that so long as the scum kills tonight tomorrow will by LyLo (if there's no kill then we're at MyLo and probably we want to no lynch but we can talk about that then and see what information we've got.) If we're in LyLo then it'll be important that no one vote unless you're sure about someone being scum or there's been enough time for debate that you aren't going to get more useful information. Any vote from one member of the town to another will result in an immediate loss as soon as the scum has a chance to log in and hammer.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Deer]

Okay, good luck at LyLo guys. Again, sorry for coming off so scummy.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Official Vote Count

Deer - 3 (Nachomamma8, jee, Zorblag)

Pulindar - 1 (Deer)

Not Voting - 1 (Pulindar)

3 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Thursday, February 4.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Deer is led off to the gallows by the town, and it quickly becomes apparent that you've murdered another innocent being. Oh well, there's always tomorrow!!

Deer,

Townie

, lynched Day 3

Night has begun. Those of you with night actions must submit your choices before Thursday, January 28.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

The number of Council members are dwindling fast, and the loss of your town's Doctor ensures that the decline will continue, unless you can stop the scum, that is...

jee,

Doctor

, killed Night 4

Day 5 has begun. With 3 alive, it takes 2 to lynch. Deadline is the end of Tuesday, February 16.

[Pulindar]

... I really thought we had it with Deer...

[Nachomamma8]

Well Pulindar, who is your top suspects?

As of right now, you top my list. However, I really hate SensFan's play from earlier, so I'm planning on a reread on Zorblag.

[Zorblag]

So last night I investigated NachoMamma8 and was blocked. I'll have more to talk about later but I'm fairly busy at the moment and I figured I should get that out for now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Pulindar]

Honestly I don't have a top suspect, Deer was my top suspect from the beginning, and I'm sort of a bit stumpped as of this moment.

I guess I'll read through the thread again, look up my reasons for both of you again, and see what I think. I won't be able to do it until tomorrow though as I have two job interviews today. RL takes precidence.

[Nachomamma8]

I've finished my reread.

However, I'd like Pulindar to comment before I do.

[Pulindar]

Sorry for not posting yesterday, power was out that morning, and I had an all day job interview later that day. Today I'm working but should be ok. to read though and post. I'm also reading through another game I'm subbing in on so please bare with me. Sorry again.

[Nachomamma8]

Can we get a prod on Zorb?

[Pulindar]

I find myself going back to my old thoughts which lean toward Zorb. I never really believed Sens' claim, I also disliked the way that Sens kept using his IC status to try to take blaim off of him. I could definitely see him bussing Elli that strongly.

He played a super aggressive game until Elli Died, and then he claimed to have investigated TNM. I never understood that decision, and I know Zorb can't explain it, but if he was playing his aggressive game he should have went after Nacho. Nacho was Sens' second thought. After all Sens even said that you would argue against the lynch on Elli.

Beyond that I think Zorb has been playing a forceful game. The best way to describe it is that he seems to have been trying to rule over what could possibly be scum tells. He seems to be trying to take absolute control over who is allowed to be suspected, and by taking control slowly knocking himself off of the possible suspect list. I understand that he's an IC and I'm only a newbie, but still it bother's me the way he's doing it. I don't think anyone but scum can be that certain about things. I could be wrong, but that's how I'm starting to look at it.

As I said from the beginning I really didn't think Sens was cop. I did think that Sens was town though, no matter how contridictory that seems. I said as much in one of my first posts. Now though I don't like that idea as much. At the time, as I stated I thought that the likeliest was Deer, and next Nacho.

I still feel that deer was the most likely when he was lynched, but ... I was wrong then ...

As for Nacho, Well neither of his predicessors count. So, I guess it's all on what I think of him. Like I said before I found him scummier than Zorb, now not so sure. I think his switch from backing Elli to instantly attacking Elli was a bit quick, but who knows. I wasn't the biggest fan of him attacking an uncounter claimed PR, but still I did see his reasoning obviously.

(reminds me Sens waited for everyone else to respond before counter claiming Elli.)

But honestly that's all I can think of on nacho. So, those are my current thoughts.

[Nachomamma8]

Zorblag:

I hated Sens's play. 100% hated it. He was completely obsessed with Elli Day 1, and yet he lynched DLA first. Then, he only claimed cop after everyone else posted and everyone had either implied/said they were pretty sure that Sens was the cop. That seems far too convenient for me to pass up. He had no content with anyone; he had minimal interactions with everyone that wasn't Elli or DLA. He also didn't make a single case backed up by good logic. I particularly hated how he wielded his IC status like a sword, and relied on ItoA to form his case on Elli. It all just seems like bussing to me.

Then, there comes Zorblag. Zorblag has IC play that I really, truly like. I don't believe that ICs should be overly aggressive, and they should be helpful, and explain their reasons for doing things. However, as to actual game content, there's something lacking. With a reread, I've noticed he hasn't really taken any strong positions. In his big analysis post, he has two people who he holds extremely close together on a scumlist (myself & Deer), and one town read without too much explanation (Pulindar). This gives him enough manuvering room to get either Deer or I lynched the first day, and then buddy up to Pulindar to get the remaining person lynched and win the game. The analysis in itself seems incomplete; he doesn't really follow up on much of it. He also began to poke at Pulindar (10, 12) when it was apparent Deer would be lynched, and again, didn't follow up on that. His hammer is also a little suspicious, I'd like him to explain WHY it was that post in particular that set him off to hammer Deer.

Pulindar:

What makes me feel bad about Mr Finch is his "don't rock the boat" mentality. He uses an FoS in ISO 1 instead of voting. In ISO 3, he takes a position on something and, seemingly worried it'll be read wrong, apologized if its at all unintelligible. In ISO 10, he suggests that his votecount might be wrong. It continues throughout the majority of his play. Then, there's his hammer. He is extremely apologetic for that too, even though his votecounts from time to time suggest that he is careful about hammering prematurely. His read on Elli in Post 28 is just strange; notice how he says "A few people find Elli scummy...", but never gives a read of his own.

Then there's Pulindar. His constant fear of being NKed is common for most new townies who feel they've been playing protown; I did it myself in my first game here. His playstyle is also different after the lynch and Deer's townflip; he seems to be more unsure of himself today, which is either me reading too much of it, a brilliant scum move, or, most likely, just a townie reaction. I'm planning on doing a meta read on him though, which I'm sure will help a whole lot.

[Pulindar]

I've only completed one game so far, but you can check out my current status on my wiki page. I try to keep it updated.

[Zorblag]

I apologize for not having been about essentially since the day started. I had some things come up in RL but I should now be about for the rest of the game. I'll be taking a look at both of you in depth sometime tomorrow.

It is interesting how the two of you describe my play as I don't find the two descriptions to be particularly similar. I don't think that I've been as controlling as Pulindar seems to be saying I have (I was trying to talk about what had happened in the game and figure out my take on them but that doesn't mean that I expect everyone to simply agree with what I say.) On the other hand, I do think that I've been a bit hesitant with my reads this game as NachoMamma8 suggests; moreso than my normal play at least. That's primarily because there are big parts of the game that just haven't make sense to me in terms of what we've had for night actions from the scum. Yesterday I was trying to watch the flow of the game to get a feel for how likely Deer or NachoMamma8 were to fit that play at all based on what they did with my thoughts on the game; unfortunately it didn't lead to much.

I can clear up why I was ready to hammer Deer after Post 526. Basically, the case on Deer was at least as strong as the case on anyone and we didn't seem to be making much progress. If he wasn't interested in defending himself then I didn't have any reason to extend the day rather than try for the win. Town shouldn't just give up like that; scum on the other hand have some motivation to make that sort of appeal to emotion if they know they're almost certainly going to get lynched anyhow.

Based on both of your last couple posts it looks like I'll be presenting a case as to why I'm not scum today as much as I'll be trying to figure out which of the two of you is. Are there any questions in particular that either of you have for me that you'd like to see addressed?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Pulindar]

Honestly no. I know you're a good player and that you'll be able to address the issues quite well. I can't think of any actual questions, though I would love to hear your opinion on both of us. As of this moment while I am leaning towards you I refuse to vote.

If any questions do come up I will ask them.

My big issue is still before you came in. I just can't understand the move to not roleblock you. I can't see it as reasonable. And Nacho is not a bad player, so I can't see him making that mistake.

Reading it again I still see you as constantly noting which moves should be considered scummy. You do it by saying what you feel is logical, and it always makes sense after you say it. Still though you've been deciding for the group when a vote seemed ok. The first day by saying that voting anything but nolynch would be a scum move. And then again with Deer. That's where I see your forceful ness. Honestly I agree with both of those decisions, it just seemed that you were so sure. That's what I was trying to say.

As for Nacho Either he did the best possible move by not roleblocking, or the worst possible move. I would have figured, as I read through, that Sens was going to focus next on nach and give a scum read. He thought Nacho was the next scummiest, why not investigate him? It could have been considered a great move to mess with the cop, but would have proven a huge problem if he had actually been investigated Nacho would have lost.
Sens play changed too much after Elli was dead.

[Nachomamma8]

The problem I had with Sens's investigation is that he didn't investigate who he thought was scum even though there was one scum left. The probability of him even getting an investigation through was tiny, so investigating a neutral read was extremely foolish. However, on Day 1, he investigated a strong scum read instead of a neutral read which, according to his philosophy, would've been another wrong move. So, that whole scenario was extremely confusing to me.

As for questions for you:
1. Why was Deer's defence of Sens interesting?
2. If you were scum (and not in the current player slot you're in now), would you have NK'ed yourself before TNM? Why?
3.

Pulindar's concern that he might have been the one killed seems more off to me though I suppose after the kill night two I should make more allowances for what I think isn't the obvious play.

Could you expand more on that quote?

Other than that, no questions.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I got a PM from Nacho that he is going on a school trip from Feb 5 to Feb 14. I'm ok with him staying in game, but if anyone has any concerns please PM me privately.

[Zorblag]

Hmm, I can't do anything much to justify SensFan's choices for night investigations. I don't overly think that they're the ones that I would have made myself. Having said that I have an almost hilariously bad record with being a cop. In every game that I've ever played where I had any sort of investigation role during a given night one of four things has always happend: my target gets killed during the night making my investigation useless; I get killed during the night making my investigation useless; I get roleblocked during the night making my investigation useless; the game gets abandoned during the night making my investigation useless. I did talk a bit about my thoughts on the night two investigation in Post 519 and that's still my overall stance.

I've also got my thoughts on why I might not have been roleblocked out there in Post 509 but I do agree that it's hard to understand.

I do see what Pulidar means by controlling the game now but I'm not going to feel bad about it. The no lynch day three was the right move to make and I'll push for that every time. I don't think that I particularly gave people permission to start lynching deer on day four. I was the final vote on that and did say I was fine with you voting at the end but once someone hits L-1 in that position it's the players on his wagon that are letting the lynch happen, not the one who hammers.

I tend to think that it's better to be clear about what I think is scummy at this point in the game and give the reasons why. I don't know what I could say to convince anyone that wasn't scummy if they thought it was.

To answer NachoMamma8's specific questions:

1. Deer's defense of SensFan was interesting because it was something I didn't expect him to do if he was scum. Of all the things that I found noteworthy when looking over his play that one was the one that gave me the biggest pause. I had trouble seeing why he'd be so willing to believe one power role claim and not another that day when from his perspective there shouldn't have been a large difference between the chance of either of them being true. There's also a little bit of innate suspicion from me anytime someone defends my (or my role) in a spot when I don't think they should be sure of my alignment.

2. Post 519 talked a bit about what I thought the right move for scum would have been. I would have NK'd the cop or the doctor before going for the the confirmed innocent. Actually killing any of the three leaves exactly one confirmed town. If the kill gets blocked by the doctor on the confirmed innocent then there are two confirmed town (the doctor and the one the cop investigated.) The only good thing that the scum takes out of that is that the day starts again with an even number of players but it's not worth the risk. Unless I had a compelling reason to gamble (the confirmed innocent would change the game in a way that would cause me to lose or some such thing) I'd almost certainly go for the cop kill over the confirmed innocent kill.

3. Pulindar shouldn't have been worried about getting killed during night three. If the scum were making sensible moves he just wasn't going to get killed. He was at best a fourth best choice. And really a no kill would have been better for the mafia than him getting killed. The only reason that it should be worth considering as a legitimate threat is how tactically bad the night two actions were.

So here are the reasons that I can think of offhand to put out there as a defense of myself. You both site SensFan's play as something you don't like and I don't either blame you. I can't give you the reasons for the choices he made and you know it. What I can do is point out aspects of the play itself that disregard style that don't make sense to have been scum play. If any of them are unclear do ask and I'll explain them further.

1. For SensFan to have been scum he would have had to have decided to bus his partner right from the get go. He was on Ellibereth at the start of day one and, although he did leave to lynch DarkLightA on day one he was right back on day two and never left the spot.

2. SensFan would not only have bussed his partner, he would have done it by countering their claim with exactly the same claim. That's essentially a waste of the first fake claim which should (with no cop in the game and without the pressure SensFan was applying) have carried the scum at least till day three if not till the end of the game.

3. As scum SensFan's claimed investigation on totallynotmafia on day three after no kill the previous night clears another townie that he didn't have to clear. Given that there was a doctor in the game he would have to be a goon here; there weren't any other cop counter-claims (which would have won the game for town) so he knew there was a doctor regardless of whether he submitted a kill or not; he would have been better off claiming to have been roleblocked as he would have known that the doctor would be revealed eventually anyhow.

4. The night three kill on totallynotmafia would have been a worse move for me to make than a kill on jee.

Each of those moves was both unforced and something that would put us in noticeably worse position as scum than we would have been if they hadn't been made. Without looking taking play styles into account (you like mine, you dislike SensFans and, really, that's probably going to be true no matter what our alignments are), for you to believe that this player spot is scum you have to be willing to believe that two experienced players have intentionally made a series of moves that at each step made their position worse than it needs to be. You have to believe that we've maneuvered the game into a position where we're in LyLo and listed by the other two players as their top suspect.

I know it's WIFOM but I'm not that bad a player and neither is SensFan. We've got different approaches but we're both playing to win. The play from this spot, if it was scum, would not have been playing to our victory condition.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Having looked back over the game again I'm very much leaning towards NachoMamma8 being the roleblocker here. There's so much more that looks scummy from his play than from Pulindar's player spot and I think that he's a bit more likely to have come up with something like the plan to out the power roles without a roleblock than Mr Finch would have been to be confused about how the rules work (and I don't think that he was just faking Post 367.)

Here are the highlights on what I find scummy for NachoMamma8:

1. The interactions with Ellibereth. There's what looks like distancing from Kami-Sama (and very little else) and then what looks like a chainsaw defense from NachoMamma8 (attacking his partner's attacker in SensFan) starting from when he enters the game.

2. The vote for Ellibereth from NachoMamma8 as soon as it becomes clear that he's going to be the lynch.

3. The vote and guessing game with Mr. Finch at the start of Day Three and the fact that NachoMamma8 couldn't tell us why later on.

4. Leaving his vote on SensFan who was in some danger of being lynched day three despite the fact that he acknowledges that lynching an un-counter claimed power role is the worst move that town could make that day.

5. The fact that he even suggests lynching jee on Day Three in exchange for having people be willing to lynch SensFan on Day Four.

My guess is that after he didn't get he cop mislynch on Day Three he laid off on this player spot Day Four because Deer was the obvious easier lynch of the two of us given the reactions to my play. He made some show of looking at Pulindar's player slot but when it didn't catch on he's falling back on the suspicion of me via everything he had built up on SensFan from before to end the game because Pulindar looks like he's more likely to cast a misvote of the two of us.

Pulindar's spot does have a couple of things hanging out there (Mr. Finch's somewhat timid play overall, the overdeveloped worry about being killed on Pulindar's part, Pulindar's reluctance to cast votes, the vaguely questionable hammer day two) but I don't think there's any reason for him to be playing this cautious a game as scum. He would have inherited a position under little suspicion and despite being examined since he's arrived I don't see anything that sticks out as overly scummy or opportunistic. I don't see as clear a way to make sense out of a plan for scum from that spot as I do from NachoMamma8's.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh