Mini 909: Nice'n'Fun Mafia (Game Over)

[Cruciare]

Vote Count

Mindgamer (3)

hitogoroshi, AGar, Nachomamma8

The Tracker (2)

angelmouse, Mindgamer

hitogoroshi (1)

Flareonage

RedCoyote (1)

Hoopla

cruelty (1)

RedCoyote

Not Voting (2)

cruelty, The Tracker

With ten alive, it takes six to stone to death.

[hitogoroshi]

Well I still think you're wasting both your time and ours with that line of inquiry, but you're at least following a line of inquiry at all which is more than can be said of most people here. So I guess for now I'll just sit back and watch the show.

Since you're content on kicking back, let me grill you a bit. If Mindgamer was taken out of the picture, who is next on your list?

To clarify, sitting back was meant in just the context of Hoopla's 'case' on you. I think it's based off of some seriously sketchy and frivolous logic, and while normally I'd like to immediately begin bearing down against the case and Hoopla, I'm willing to let it unweave a little longer because Hoopla is at least following a line of reasoning that's important to her, even if I think it's a really dumb line of reasoning. Contrast with: cruelty has not posted d2, mindgamer and angelmouse have each posted once d2.

So, scum reads if Mindgamer is out of the picture:

Tracker is an odd one. I don't like him at all from a content perspective but I really feel his claim is legitimate. I really hate giving people 'free passes' because I want even confirmed townies feeling pressure to post, but that doesn't change the fact that I honestly feel that if we lynch Tracker he's going to flip FBI agent. If he stays with his defensive one liners I think I'm going to start to lose this reservation out of frustration (unintentional rhyme), but for now I have no interest in getting back on the tracker wagon.

Flare is trying way too hard to be liked. Scum do this, but more importantly, newbies do this. It's hard to get an indication of whether or not he's scum but his unreadability in this regard shoots him up to be a solid lynch candidate.

My number 2 suspect for scum after mindgamer, though, is Nacho. He spent a lot of time buddying up with Quagmire (basicially he did what Hoopla thinks RC did) for most of the day, then later in the day reverted to

Well, I don't see a Quagmire lynch as particularly horrible, but I still seriously want a Tracker lynch over a Quagmire lynch...

despite the fact that he spent most of the day specifying that he did see a Quagmire lynch as particularly horrible. Strikes me as just making sure he could get his 'right idea' down for posterity before going along with the wave. More importantly, he's doing a lot of very short, information-instead-of-analysis type posts. He's the prime example of someone who posts a lot on game related things while failing to really deliver an actual opinion on the proceedings. And the one main opinion he did deliver (that a Quagmire lynch) apparently changed to 'I don't see it as particularity horrible...' in the span of half a day.

[Nachomamma8]

Re: Your case against me:

Just because I'm not as verbose as you are doesn't mean that I'm scum, first of all. Lesse... I was the main proponent against Tracker yesterday, and the main anti-Quag lynch proponent yesterday as well. And could you provide ISO numbers to where I fell into IIoA? Because I'm pretty sure you've been doing it far more than I have.

Now, the one main opinion (after me saying Tracker was scum and we shouldn't lynch Quag of course) that Quag wasn't particularly horrible was me stating that I was willing to lynch Quagmire instead of letting a no-lynch come. I'd say that "contridiction" was a hell of a lot more town than yours: You were Mr. Let's Kill Quagmire the whole day, and when the wagon had gained far too much momentum to stop, then you mentioned that you were feeling doubts. Seems like a cheap way to gain tow points in my eyes.

[hitogoroshi]

And could you provide ISO numbers to where I fell into IIoA? Because I'm pretty sure you've been doing it far more than I have.

ISO 3, ISO 5, ISO 6, and ISO 23 are just questions and nothing else. You also have posts like ISO 17 where'll you define a point or something and then slip out. You were voting Tracker the entire day - but you made lots of posts where you offered no scum reads and never once stopped to say, 'Hey, other townies, vote tracker.'

Now, the one main opinion (after me saying Tracker was scum and we shouldn't lynch Quag of course) that Quag wasn't particularly horrible was me stating that I was willing to lynch Quagmire instead of letting a no-lynch come. I'd say that "contridiction" was a hell of a lot more town than yours: You were Mr. Let's Kill Quagmire the whole day, and when the wagon had gained far too much momentum to stop, then you mentioned that you were feeling doubts. Seems like a cheap way to gain tow points in my eyes.

I tried to kill the Quag wagon and start the Tracker wagon after I thought about it. You were voting tracker the whole day, yes, but the only time you ever asked anyone else to join it was when you quoted me saying it. Do you not know the difference between voting for someone and wagoning them? You put a very weak vote on Tracker (it was a pressure vote at the time), and held on to it the whole day without ever making it strong.

[Flareonage]

Flare is trying way too hard to be liked. Scum do this, but more importantly, newbies do this. It's hard to get an indication of whether or not he's scum but his unreadability in this regard shoots him up to be a solid lynch candidate.

How am I trying way too hard to be liked?

[Mindgamer]

Good shit, I should not have signed up for two games at the same time. Simply don't have the time to keep track of them both. I have some time tomorrow morning though, so I will reread the game and post my opinion on the current situation.

I fail to imagine a set-up where an SK can currently exist. Trying to balance a mini-normal with three killing roles is ridiculous, even for someone zany like Cruciare. Without an NK now, it isn't even worth considering.

This makes sense.

Unvote

[Nachomamma8]

ISO 3, ISO 5, ISO 6, and ISO 23 are just questions and nothing else. You also have posts like ISO 17 where'll you define a point or something and then slip out. You were voting Tracker the entire day - but you made lots of posts where you offered no scum reads and never once stopped to say, 'Hey, other townies, vote tracker.'

Erm, none of those posts show IIoA in the slightest. I scumhunt by asking questions; this gives me better reads on people. How else am I supposed to figure anything out?

ISO 17 is the answer to a question.

And I also fail to see where you gave any scumreads the entire day; you only gave your opinion on a policy lynch, then joined the Tracker wagon. You didn't really explain your vote on him, minus the fact that he was contributing less than Quag, a point I explained before.

I tried to kill the Quag wagon and start the Tracker wagon after I thought about it. You were voting tracker the whole day, yes, but the only time you ever asked anyone else to join it was when you quoted me saying it. Do you not know the difference between voting for someone and wagoning them? You put a very weak vote on Tracker (it was a pressure vote at the time), and held on to it the whole day without ever making it strong.

And, conveniently enough, it took you until 5 days before deadline to have your little epiphany. And asking people to join =/= gaining strength for your vote. I was spending most of my time trying to derail the Quagmire wagon, and until that was done, I didn't see most of you voting for else. What was I supposed to do, sneak in a "Look at Tracker! He's still not contributing!" every 5 seconds? Would that make it strong enough for your standards?

[Hoopla]

Complete thoughts on Hoopla's claim? It's bogus. Nevermind the fact that a self-aware miller is, in my opinion, bullshit. The claim had no reason to be put out there other than to basically fuck with any potential cop we have. It was unprovoked and just useless. If you're town, we gain nothing from the claim. Scum gains everything from it whether you are scum or you aren't scum. If you are scum, you basically nullify any potential investigations on yourself and leave us to a wonderful guessing game of the veracity, while as for if you aren't mafia, you've wonderfully created us this guessing game of "what the hell is going on" and your smokescreen posting and your games of 20 questions are doing nothing to help the town find the actual scum.

I'm not sure which games you've been involved in, but I've only encountered ~*~secret~*~ millers once, which was in Zoraster's recent large normal game, as opposed to 5-6 other times where miller's have knowledge they are a miller. I'm genuinely puzzled that you think self-aware millers are rare, especially when almost all miller threads in MD are about which way to play the miller role.

Town gaining nothing from my claim is a lie. I explained my motivation for claiming miller - the risk of not claiming and then being investigated by a cop is too damaging

not

to claim. The only downside is scum know I am not a powerrole and it slightly lowers the pool to catch one in. That downside is not significant compared to the outside chance of being investigated and wasting a Day 2 lynch

and

outing a cop.

This is not a massive scum advantage like you're trying to spin - as the only thing it protects me from is investigations. I think Hito summed it up well, stating my claim equated to this;

"If we have a cop, you're wasting your time investigating me."

I think I tend to get targeted at night more than random, so this was the percentage play to me. I hope you can agree too!

[Hoopla]

how do you rate the possibility of a miller with no cop?

It's possible. Are you implying there is a theme to the roles?

Letting The Tracker off because he claimed an uncommon role as opposed to a common role is laughable.

Well, I answered your question, now you get to defend your side. Why? Why does claiming a more "common" role necessarily make you more believable than The Tracker?

Quick question for RC; if roles were reversed, and I had claimed FBI Agent, and Tracker had claimed Miller, would you hold the same suspicions?

Same suspicions of you or of the role situation?

I strongly think this set-up has a symmetry or gimmick, by the way The Tracker worded his post about his role. I doubt there is an SK and I doubt there is a cop.

~~

It doesn't - claims need to be assessed in the context of the game, not based on how common they are. I actually strongly believe Tracker's claim. I think the reason why some people associate rarity with believability is because when they try to catch liars, they have an imprint of previous lies and what they look like wired in their subconcious. They've seen more lies from common claims, as opposed to the obscure. Many times they discount the other angle of seeing more truth's from common claims, as opposed to the obscure. You need to weigh up the for/against from both sides, rather than just adding up the for, because you'll always remember more lies in common claims.

That probably doesn't make much sense, so allow me to give another example. Say you're the boss of a small company, and two of your workers call in absent. One claims to be feeling sick. The other claims to be unavailable due to a swarm of maniacal termites eroding a wooden beam in their garage, crushing the bonnet of their car.

Which would you believe more? Probably the obscure, detailed excuse as you've never encountered this type of lie before. Although as the boss, you probably wouldn't condemn the common excuse as a lie, but you'd naturally be more skeptical. I think most people have this bias.

~~

The role situation. Does the personality/ability of the player affect your decision?

[Hoopla]

Unvote, vote: angelmouse

Start posting or I'll tear you apart.

[cruelty]

Ok I'm back.

@whoever cited me as not having posted today, I was out of town for a week. Not lurking.

I seriously got the impression that cruelty voted Quagmire almost purely out of spite, especially after their little slapfest at the end of the day. He won't agree with that characterization of course, but the town can draw their own conclusions. cruelty played a big part in artifically extending that wagon. He either did so out of emotion and principle, being against Quagmire's D1 play, or he did so to because he did not want another wagon to garner any steam, as lynching townQuagmire or (supposedly) townTheTracker would've been good enough.

1: I didn't vote for Quag solely out of spite, but I definitely wasn't unhappy to vote him.
2: I thought there was a good chance he'd read his role and was lying.
3: He claimed to be scumhunting, but I didn't see any real evidence of him doing so.

Basically, I think the guy's an idiot, I think his style of play was horribly anti-town and I thought he was probably lying about 2 things - 1: reading his role pm, and 2: contributing to scumhunting. Both of these I would seriously consider voting for, both being present was (for me) lynch-worthy.


I've read through the thread so I'm technically up to date, but I need to read through day 1 again to place it in context (it's been a long week in hot temperatures, my brain is fried) - I'll try to answer any questions anyone has of me, but I'm not 100% up to speed yet.

[RedCoyote]

To clarify, sitting back was meant in just the context of Hoopla's 'case' on you.

I should also clarify that I didn't mean for this to come off as dickish. I don't think you're just lazily going through the day or anything. I started up typing a joke or something in relation to your comment, but I scrapped the punchline in my final editing process and left the opening intact.

And the one main opinion he did deliver (that a Quagmire lynch) apparently changed to 'I don't see it as particularity horrible...' in the span of half a day.

I agree with your Flare comment, and I think this is pretty solid, too.

---

You were Mr. Let's Kill Quagmire the whole day, and when the wagon had gained far too much momentum to stop, then you mentioned that you were feeling doubts. Seems like a cheap way to gain tow points in my eyes.

Although I think there is validity to this, this comes off dangerously close to some OMGUS attack.

In other words, if hito's switch didn't sit well with you, why are you only bringing it up now after he explained his suspicions of you, rather than earlier? It's almost like a genetic fallacy:

hito switched his position on Quagmire during D1, therefore hito is unfit to call anyone out for flipping.

Outside from that, I do agree that I don't think you've been committing IIoA.

---

Good shit, I should not have signed up for two games at the same time. Simply don't have the time to keep track of them both.

You can do it, man. Set aside half an hour or so, just read over the pages and pick a few things too comment on. It's not as much as it looks like.

---

I strongly think this set-up has a symmetry or gimmick, by the way The Tracker worded his post about his role.

It's kind of the elephant in the room, at least for our argument. Unlike arguing the logic of our current claims, that's seriously broaching into "outguessing" territory though.

Which would you believe more? Probably the obscure, detailed excuse as you've never encountered this type of lie before. Although as the boss, you probably wouldn't condemn the common excuse as a lie, but you'd naturally be more skeptical. I think most people have this bias.

I see where you're coming from. I'm almost willing to give it to you... but I just can't swallow the idea that fake FBI Agent claims have the same probability of occuring as fake Miller claims. In a perfect world, yes, you're 100% right. On paper, in theory, in a perfect world, etc, however you want to say it, people would not be as unimaginative as to go for the predictable role claims time after time. This is all starting to sound very WIFOMy, and we also have to take into account the length of time you and The Tracker have been playing here at MS.

Does the personality/ability of the player affect your decision?

Yes, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that if the role were reversed I would be pressuring your FBI Agent claim. I probably wouldn't give The Tracker as much grief as I've given you though.

---

1: I didn't vote for Quag solely out of spite, but I definitely wasn't unhappy to vote him.
2: I thought there was a good chance he'd read his role and was lying.
3: He claimed to be scumhunting, but I didn't see any real evidence of him doing so.

1: We're at an impasse. The town will have to make up their own mind about it.
2: I don't think you believe this, especially after all the "LOLITROLLU" comments.
3: I disagree. Granted, he was stuck in defensive mode, but he did eventually give his opinion on the town when asked to.

I've read through the thread so I'm technically up to date, but I need to read through day 1 again to place it in context (it's been a long week in hot temperatures, my brain is fried) - I'll try to answer any questions anyone has of me, but I'm not 100% up to speed yet.

None for me at the moment, but I'd like to see your offense when you get the chance to sit and think about it.

[cruelty]

1: Shrug.
2: Oh ok. You find someone scummy, you generally don't believe anything they have to say. In the event that he was lying about having not read his role pm, then it would also follow that he wasn't actually trolling (That is, making an absurd play in the hope that people would think him town because scum wouldn't be that stupid). I was wrong, he had no ulterior motives and is in fact just a common idiot.
3: I don't consider his cyberbob "case" to be scumhunting. I think he even said at one point it wasn't that convincing a case (or something to that effect). How seriously am I supposed to take that?

[Mindgamer]

I think we should stop the discussion about the game setup, at least for now. It hasn't brought us anywhere. Roles are important, but talking about behaviour is much more useful in my opinion.

However, I'm really liking the Mindgamer wagon now. He wasn't really that involved yesterday, and didn't take a stand on anything.

That's not entirely true. I did express my opinion on the Quagmire wagon and I made a vote for Angelmouse. Why would you use such a weak argument for a vote on me when there are so much better reasons?

Here's a pop quiz for RedCoyote (and anyone else who wants to be awesome);


1. If Tracker's claim is found to be fake, is Hoopla's claim more likely to be real or fake?
2. If Hoopla's claim is found to be fake, is Tracker's claim more likely to be fake or real?
3. If Tracker's claim is found to be real, is Hoopla's claim more likely to be fake or real?
4. If Hoopla's claim is found to be real, is Tracker's claim more likely to be fake or real?
5. Which is a more likely combination; Tracker/Cop or CPR Doctor/SK?
6. Which is a more likely combination; no cop/SK, SK but no cop, Cop but no SK, Cop and SK?
7. If neither a cop or SK exist in this set-up, which is more likely; an FBI agent, a miller, both miller and FBI, or neither roles?

Remember to show your work.

Too much talk about the roles wil distract us from any real scumhunting. This quiz takes that to the extreme. 'Show your work'. So we should put some serious effort into studying the game setup and stop looking for scumtells? Not really protown imo.

First, Mindgamer's 180 on me. Yes, I know angel also voted me, but she's consistent in her decision. Mindgamer seems to be saying 'Well, looks like we can try for an early lynch with this guy.' I would like to see his reasoning for that.

No, it was just a weak vote. I was certainly suspicious of you at the moment but I was mainly voting because I wanted to do something and see how you and others would respond. The three killing roles argument changed my mind however, it makes good sense for you to be a real FBI Agent. And I got the responses I wanted. For sure one of the three voters is scum, and I'm mainly looking at Nachomamma8 for his weak reasoning.

I have made a table of the voting patterns of Day 1. Enjoy.



Dag = Day
Persoon = Person
Bericht = Post
Naar = To
Van = From
Aantal = Number of posts

[The Tracker]

Mindgamer, on Nacho do you have evidence to back up your claim? I think looking at you was relatively good reasoning.

I'm starting to see some of Hoopla's arguments as WIFOM. Our claims are similar, but were made under completely different circumstances. Mine was brought on by a wagon when Hoopla's was brought on by nothing. Now he's defending his reasoning best he can, but he's more recent ones are WIFOMy.

I'm also finding it strange how Nacho thought I was lynch of the day yesterday and all of a sudden he has no interest in me.

[AGar]

and the main anti-Quag lynch proponent yesterday as well.

And then you did a complete 180. Just a note.

I fail to imagine a set-up where an SK can currently exist. Trying to balance a mini-normal with three killing roles is ridiculous, even for someone zany like Cruciare. Without an NK now, it isn't even worth considering.

This makes sense.

Unvote

You're voting based on trying to outguess the mod.

Wonderful. Did you ever consider the possibility that more than one person tried to hit Cyberbob?

Complete thoughts on Hoopla's claim? It's bogus. Nevermind the fact that a self-aware miller is, in my opinion, bullshit. The claim had no reason to be put out there other than to basically fuck with any potential cop we have. It was unprovoked and just useless. If you're town, we gain nothing from the claim. Scum gains everything from it whether you are scum or you aren't scum. If you are scum, you basically nullify any potential investigations on yourself and leave us to a wonderful guessing game of the veracity, while as for if you aren't mafia, you've wonderfully created us this guessing game of "what the hell is going on" and your smokescreen posting and your games of 20 questions are doing nothing to help the town find the actual scum.

I'm not sure which games you've been involved in, but I've only encountered ~*~secret~*~ millers once, which was in Zoraster's recent large normal game, as opposed to 5-6 other times where miller's have knowledge they are a miller. I'm genuinely puzzled that you think self-aware millers are rare, especially when almost all miller threads in MD are about which way to play the miller role.

Town gaining nothing from my claim is a lie. I explained my motivation for claiming miller - the risk of not claiming and then being investigated by a cop is too damaging

not

to claim. The only downside is scum know I am not a powerrole and it slightly lowers the pool to catch one in. That downside is not significant compared to the outside chance of being investigated and wasting a Day 2 lynch

and

outing a cop.

This is not a massive scum advantage like you're trying to spin - as the only thing it protects me from is investigations. I think Hito summed it up well, stating my claim equated to this;

"If we have a cop, you're wasting your time investigating me."

I think I tend to get targeted at night more than random, so this was the percentage play to me. I hope you can agree too!

I haven't been playing Minis on MS for almost my entire tenure on the site - I stick to Road to Rome generally. I just started adding Minis into my balance of games I take on. However, another site I played on didn't have self-aware millers. But that's moot.

So your motivation was self-preservation. Cool. That's not scummy at all.

The claim doesn't help us as town, other than avoiding a mislynch. But the upside is if you're scum, an investigation doesn't give us any footing. I'd say that's pretty significant if you're scum and managed to stay off the radar, and then an investigation pops up.

The timing was unprovoked, the context wasn't useful at all, and the motivation wasn't protown.

Mindgamer - that post you just put up is classic smokescreening - it seems like it would be useful, but in all reality, it is useless information and just keeps you further distanced from the game.

People, if you aren't on the Mindgamer wagon, get on it. Here's some reasons why!

1) Mindgamer has been actively lurking and following the general ebb and flow for most of this entire game, very rarely posting true content. Most of his posts lack original thought or, worse, content at all.

2) Fluffposting. A number of his posts and his content, like the table at the end of the last post, have no real value to the town if we want to catch scum.

3) Lack of commitment. During Day 1, Mindgamer said he would hammer Quag, but no sooner than an hour prior to the deadline. Why? At this point, NOTHING new was going to come from Quag - his insistence on not reading his role PM was crystal clear. What could have possibly changed the town's direction in those few hours. Today, he has only laid a quickvote on Tracker, recanted it, and then decided he shouldn't have a vote out.

4) The RVS incident. I still stand by the fact that he was trying to buddy up to Tracker after the RVS thing with his insistence that "mislynch" was a joke, even after Tracker said otherwise. *My predecessor picked up on this, not me.*

So vote Mindgamer today, because it's the right thing to do!

This advertisement paid for by the Lynch-Mindgamer committee, and only reflects the views of those committee members (AGar) and no one else in this town. Read the fine print people. Why? Because authority makes it small so you won't read it. But you should. Why? So I can waste your time reading small sized font like this. I bet you ten bucks I could fill an entire one of these with "Lorum Ipsem" and no one would read it. NO ONE.

[Hoopla]

So your motivation was self-preservation. Cool. That's not scummy at all.

The claim doesn't help us as town, other than avoiding a mislynch. But the upside is if you're scum, an investigation doesn't give us any footing. I'd say that's pretty significant if you're scum and managed to stay off the radar, and then an investigation pops up.

The timing was unprovoked, the context wasn't useful at all, and the motivation wasn't protown.

No, it was cop preservation. The reason why I claimed is so a cop doesn't potentially waste an investigation on me, causing him to out himself. How on earth are you reading it as self-preservation?

Some players support policy lynches of millers, and they always almost come under fire/draw excessive attention to themself because of their claim. They are also hot choices for vig kills. If this is self preservation, then I'm doing it wrong.

You make it seem as if the worse case scenario (by not claiming) is not a big deal at all. Outing a cop falsely for a mislynch is a disasterous situation for the town. Claiming miller is not explicitely pro-town, because it narrows the pool of power roles for scum to hit. But it is a far better situation than the worse case scenario in not claiming and being investigated. Both are negative results, but claiming is imo the lesser of two evils. Therefore it was the protown decision.

[Nachomamma8]

In other words, if hito's switch didn't sit well with you, why are you only bringing it up now after he explained his suspicions of you, rather than earlier? It's almost like a genetic fallacy:

hito switched his position on Quagmire during D1, therefore hito is unfit to call anyone out for flipping.

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of his position on me. As town, you can't call someone scum because they're doing something you are.

Why would you use such a weak argument for a vote on me when there are so much better reasons?

So much better reasons to vote you? Also, I'm not sure what purpose your little chart was supposed to accomplish...

I'm also finding it strange how Nacho thought I was lynch of the day yesterday and all of a sudden he has no interest in me.

I explained this is ISO 24. If you think my reasons are strange, say so.

And then you did a complete 180. Just a note.

Lynching randomly was better than no-lynching on Day 1.

[hitogoroshi]

Erm, none of those posts show IIoA in the slightest. I scumhunt by asking questions; this gives me better reads on people. How else am I supposed to figure anything out?

But it doesn't tell us anything about YOU. I suppose IIoA is the wrong word, call it active lurking instead. Just asking a question tells us as much about you as if you had poked your head into the thread, said 'margarine is not an acceptable alternative to butter', and left again. Questions are a privilege you earn to add along with your content posting; to ask that we take your questions and CALL them content won't fly.

And, conveniently enough, it took you until 5 days before deadline to have your little epiphany.

*shrug* nothing to say here, other than that with Quag deliberately trolling the town I'm surprised I managed to get over it at ALL.

And asking people to join =/= gaining strength for your vote. I was spending most of my time trying to derail the Quagmire wagon, and until that was done, I didn't see most of you voting for else. What was I supposed to do, sneak in a "Look at Tracker! He's still not contributing!" every 5 seconds? Would that make it strong enough for your standards?

Pushing a Tracker wagon would have done far, far more to derail the Quagmire wagon than just yelling 'no one can vote quagmire today, we have to give him lynch immunity while he trolls us!' That's the difference in our positions, and I suppose that it's a bit unfair for me to call you scum on this point - I assumed you would have understood that making a counter-wagon viable would have done far more to derail Quagmire's lynch, but I see now that might not be the case.

Regardless this is more or less a moot point at this stage: Mindgamer's last couple of posts make me feel even happier with my vote (notice how he has backed away from his initial position and utterly failed to give a new one.)

I don't want to grab quotes because I have a lot of mafia on my plate right now, but let me say that Hoopla is quickly rising up in my scumlist. Her line of questioning that she said was 'important to her right now' has flowed into a lurker vote, and while I can normally dig going for lurkers I don't like that Hoopla seems to be doing EXACTLY what I suspected in 340:

I can sort of see where she's coming from with her vote on RC. While statistically Quag was more likely to be town that scum, he did seem to be fairly strongly neglecting the possibility of Quag-scum. But Hoopla's last three posts really rub me the wrong way. I

get the impression that she went for a deliberately 'hard' looking target so she can look townie, doesn't actually intend to PUSH the RC wagon but instead will just defend her claim, and will 'compromise' on a lynch later in the day.

Hoopla, let's focus less on 'this is why I'm a miller' and more on 'this is why you should all vote for RC'.

Only with 'compromise on a lynch' replaced with 'take the easy lurkervote'.

[Nachomamma8]

But it doesn't tell us anything about YOU. I suppose IIoA is the wrong word, call it active lurking instead. Just asking a question tells us as much about you as if you had poked your head into the thread, said 'margarine is not an acceptable alternative to butter', and left again. Questions are a privilege you earn to add along with your content posting; to ask that we take your questions and CALL them content won't fly.

It's not my duty to give you a read on me. It's my duty to develop reads on other people, and make the town see why my reads are so. Sure, that doesn't give me the right to do anti-town things, but for all intensive purposes, if you need to get a better read on me, then you need to ask more questions.

*shrug* nothing to say here, other than that with Quag deliberately trolling the town I'm surprised I managed to get over it at ALL.

It's not like you really gave him a chance. You attacked him for his playstyle. There's not much you can do in that situation EXCEPT for troll.

more to derail the Quagmire wagon than just yelling 'no one can vote quagmire today, we have to give him lynch immunity while he trolls us!'

The town was obsessed with Quagmire Day 1. And there was no way in hell that I was going to build some amazing, irrefutable case against Tracker that would end the wagon in the first place. So I pointed out why it was a bad idea, and I "argued it until I was blue in the face".

Only with 'compromise on a lynch' replaced with 'take the easy lurkervote'.

Wouldn't the easiest lurker-vote to be vote Mindgamer? He has more votes on him, and he hasn't exactly improved his play lately.

[hitogoroshi]

Oh wow. I think two wrongs just made a right here. You see, Nacho, it is

completely, totally, absolutely

your duty to give me a read on you (and of course, the reverse is true as well). That is the whole reason why lurking is bad - not because the lurkers aren't asking other people questions, but because we aren't seeing content from them.

But, if you don't understand that, your position on the Quagmire wagon is suddenly a whole lot more understandable. After all, the thing that was so goddamn aggravating about Quagmire was that he was making this incredibly anti-town thing his play style - but if you don't know how terrible it is to be deliberately unreadble (and rest assured, it is extremely terrible) then of COURSE you're going to protest the Quagmire lynch.

Let's chalk this one up to a breakdown in communication and consider the matter dropped. Nacho, it is imperative that you do more than ask questions and not try to make others force content out of you; but it really does look like you simply didn't know this and I'm not gonna dredge it up from the past anymore.

Also:

Wouldn't the easiest lurker-vote to be vote Mindgamer? He has more votes on him, and he hasn't exactly improved his play lately.

My vote on Mindgamer isn't a lurker vote. And the reason I dislike Hoopla's vote is not because it's "easy" - it's because it's an easy vote after she assured me her points on RC and the ensuing PR discussion was something very important and it seems it all has amounted to absolutely nothing.

[The Tracker]

I'm seeing the points about Mindgamer reading back through. His posts look incredibly busy on the surface, but when I sat back and actually had a chance to read them, I found they had less content than an unhappy marraige (homograph metaphor...huh.)

[Nachomamma8]

Alright, I phrased that wrong. It's not my job to make sure everyone can read me; it's my job to simply give content that will allow them to do so. Lurkers are bad because they prevent everyone else from doing their job, and they make themselves another unknown in a game with what is already far too many of them.

I took my position on Quagmire because it was a random lynch, and we were voting someone who we KNEW was going to stop lurking Day 2 instead of someone that was posting even less than Quag was, and we didn't know if it was going to change, ever.

Nacho, it is imperative that you do more than ask questions and not try to make others force content out of you.

If you think this is what I've been doing, then I'd review the thread again. I've been posting plenty of content if you'd just open your eyes. And if you disagree, what do I need to comment on?

[Hoopla]

My vote on Mindgamer isn't a lurker vote. And the reason I dislike Hoopla's vote is not because it's "easy" - it's because it's an easy vote after she assured me her points on RC and the ensuing PR discussion was something very important and it seems it all has amounted to absolutely nothing.

My vote on angelmouse is temporary, unless she doesn't start posting. I requested information from her three days ago. Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about RC!

It's also an important vote. The vote is the most important tool the town has - it can be used to gain information, threaten and to create a visual representation of every player's suspicion. Utilizing the vote is important town play. I am voting angelmouse to get what I need out of her.

[Mindgamer]

Mindgamer - that post you just put up is classic smokescreening - it seems like it would be useful, but in all reality, it is useless information and just keeps you further distanced from the game.

I'm seeing the points about Mindgamer reading back through. His posts look incredibly busy on the surface, but when I sat back and actually had a chance to read them, I found they had less content than an unhappy marraige (homograph metaphor...huh.)

Should I just ask for a replacement then? I try my best with the time I have, but it's not appreciated. Apparently I'm not making the game enjoyable for you and you certainly aren't making the game enjoyable for me.
Replacement? Your choice.