Mafia 107 - Christmas Time Mafia (Game over)

[DocPotter]

Just the way you seemed to place Pie and Cherub in a positive light during day 1. Such as the quote above. Also a little voteing (Though a computer crash lost my coloured votals chart, so I have to rebuild it.)
You're not the only one of course, I had Pie as fairly town for a large part of day 1.

I'll learn more when I start on day 2.

Dizzy, you should look at all the wagons that got to around L-2 or so. Richard, for example, is on four of the five. (Actually six, but I can understand Richard not being on his own wagon)

[pman5595]

I would have hammered, because in reality, I shouldn't have ever felt that him claiming VT is worthwhile at all, because anyone would claim VT in that situation. I still believe that if you think someone's scummy and they claim VT that it shouldn't change anything at all, but I hadn't come to that conclusion at that point.

Now, this might be true, but I don't think so. I think you didn't want to hammer then, to keep yourself out of the spotlight, and now you are semi-noobclaiming to try to get out of it. You didn't hammer. You are not making yourself less scummy by trying to say "oh I was wrong, I'm so sorry, I would totally go back if I could"

I've spent so much time trying to defend myself that I'm not sure who I think is scum. I'm interested to see what comes out of the pman/sorasgoof banter, I think that one of these two are scum. soras made a good first argument, but after reading pman's counter, I find myself needing more from soras. I would like to hear what soras thinks of pman's case on me, more than just that he was 'jumping on me', because he did a true iso read and put in more work than just randomly choosing a target.

actually, I disagree. I do not think of soras as scum. It is true that I thought he was scum on day 1, but now that there is more information, I get a gut read of misguided town.

Although if one of us is scum, it would DEFINITELY be him

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Just the way you seemed to place Pie and Cherub in a positive light during day 1. Such as the quote above. Also a little voteing (Though a computer crash lost my coloured votals chart, so I have to rebuild it.)
You're not the only one of course, I had Pie as fairly town for a large part of day 1.

I'll learn more when I start on day 2.

Dizzy, you should look at all the wagons that got to around L-2 or so. Richard, for example, is on four of the five. (Actually six, but I can understand Richard not being on his own wagon)

Richard is irrelevent, since he's town. There's absolutely nothing in his play that contradicts the opinion I've formed of him.

[Tarballs]

2nd Vote Count of Day 4

2 - CCARaven4

(pman5595, ready2rock)

1 - ready2rock

(curiouskarmadog)

1 - pman5595

(sorasgoof)

1 - Bogre

(Konowa)

5 - Not voting

(Bogre, DocPotter, DizzyIzzyB13, CCARaven4, RichardGHP)


With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline for this day is February 21st, 2010.

Bogre hasn't picked up his prod, so I'm starting a search for a replacement.

[RichardGHP]

Mod, Bogre is absent in another game I'm in with him so maybe unexplained V/LA?

Anyway, inactive game is inactive. After looking things over, I still think that Raven is the best lynch at the moment.

Vote: CCARaven4.

I find sora and pman as misguided/noob town (sora's whole RB thing, pman's general newb play, nothing too scum-like) but Raven... argh. Semi-ISO incoming.

Richard was very concerned with who was voting for him and how many people were voting for him, but hasn’t done it anymore since I called him out on it. I think this is a major scum tell, he was being overly paranoid, Richard is on my scum list.

Also, Richard claims JoaT, and the only person who knows that he’s lying is the real JoaT (no, I don’t believe his claim).
Think about it, for scum, JoaT is a great claim, because of the Jacks very specific actions.

And when someone asks him to use his investigation tonight, he, as a mafia member, knows exactly who is and isn’t mafia, so he can claim that he investigated anybody else, and since he knows that person must flip town, he can just say that person flipped town after his investigation.

*facepalm*

It would be even easier to say that he investigated someone he knew was town, because then everyone would believe him, including the person he ‘investigated’. Again, he knows who is town because he’s a member of the mafia.

A one shot protection, that’s even easier to fake, because you know who the mafia is targeting. Even better, the Mafia could just not kill someone one night, and Richard would be able to say that he ‘protected’ them, and everyone would fall for that, hook, line, and sinker, and everyone would be able to think that the doctor was protecting Richard from the mafia.

One shot roleblock is also very easy because he can say that he roleblocked a townie, because, again, he would know who the townies were and weren’t. This could be a little bit tougher because he doesn’t know exactly who the doctors are and such, but he would not have to use the roleblock fake for a pretty long time, because who was going to call for a roleblock?

To be totally honest, I have no idea what a one shot commute is. I just spent about ten minutes on the wiki looking for one shot commute, but I didn’t find anything, so I don’t know anything about this role.

As you guys can see, I think that Richard was very smart to claim JoaT, because it is so easy to fake. From the town’s view, if we were to lynch the real JoaT, then I don’t believe that we are losing as much as we would gain if he were lying.

*facepalm x2*

I think you're right, I had this great idea that Richard was faking JoaT that I was finding scummy posts when there really wasn't anything to find, I was just making stuff up.

You blatantly admit to tunneling and unvote when called out on it. Nice.

I think I was so tunneled in on Richard that people made me out to be scum. I lurked for a while, and then I promised content, and I tried to deliver with a large analysis of Richard that ended up completely decimated by multiple people, and that contributed to a lot of the suspicion

You admit to tunneling AND lurking. Ok.

Konowa is definitely town as well. No scum would try so hard to scumhunt. I'm calling Vanilla Town on him, because he really is playing like he has nothing to lose but his life. I really liked his post that ended up with.

Oh my God, this is a terrible post. Calling yourself town is one thing, but calling someone ELSE townie, vanilla, no less, is extremely scum-like. Possible cop fake-softclaim, almost as if he's scum trying to build ground work for earlier events today.

If I were the cop, wouldn't I want people to infer that I'm the cop through my posts instead of having to claim it outright?

More cop claim WIFOM. This is getting ridiculous.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That brings me to the end of the ISO, since Raven has only posted 25 times in the entire game, which has lasted well over a month now. CCARaven, you are scum. Even if you aren't, you are still playing anti-town. You lurk, tunnel and wish-wash vote in combination with your lurking. Can we please lynch him now?

[DocPotter]

Dizzy, my point was that you should be looking at all the large wagons, and you're answer is Richard is town.
I agree mind, because I doubt that he's the SK that appears to be out there.

Why did noone start discussing Pie early on D3?

To look at the non-confirmed's posts/actions, CKD was reasonable though his subsequent raising of the 4th neighbour gave me a something strange feeling, R2R seemed to try and distract by info overload, Bogre tried to start a wagon on Pman, and Pman claimed I don't know what. Noob? Confused?

At the moment, I'm leaning towards CCARaven being scum. Just too many weird things with Amished, and declaring people town, and absences at convienent times.

[sorasgoof]

[quote="RichardGHP"

]Even if you aren't, you are still playing anti-town

. You lurk, tunnel and wish-wash vote in combination with your lurking. Can we please lynch him now?[/quote]

That's fine if you think he's scum (I, for one, do not), but don't you think that this late in the game we should really try not to lynch a townie? I'd rather have an anti-town playing townie alive than a mafioso.

Anyway, this game is coming to a stand still. I do think that we need to come together for a lynch, but how do we do that if WE DON'T AGREE?

[RichardGHP]

Even if you aren't, you are still playing anti-town

. You lurk, tunnel and wish-wash vote in combination with your lurking. Can we please lynch him now?

That's fine if you think he's scum (I, for one, do not), but don't you think that this late in the game we should really try not to lynch a townie? I'd rather have an anti-town playing townie alive than a mafioso.

Anyway, this game is coming to a stand still. I do think that we need to come together for a lynch, but how do we do that if WE DON'T AGREE?

Fixed the tags for you, and unless a cop claims with an innocent or guilty on him, we (town) can't know Raven's alignment, nor do we know exactly how many scum there are left. I'd say 2 at most, since we have 10 alive and 3 scum dead already. Any more than 5 scum in a game this size would be quite bastardly.

So with only two people who aren't cops confirmed, today's lynch is going to be based entirely off of assumptions and analysis of others. Let's break down my thoughts on those left in the game:

CCARaven4:

The blatant WIFOM earlier, active lurking and tunneling. I think this is the best lynch for today.

ready2rock:

Kind of a neutral read on him thus far, though I haven't really been paying attention to him.

pman5595:

Comes of as more misguided town than anything... I really dislike sora's vote on him, but that doesn't mean that either of them is scum.

Bogre:

I called him as town on Day 1 (before it was pointed out that town lists are anti-town >.>) and I stand by that. He's a smart player, one that could easily fake scumhunting but he really doesn't read as scum for me. He may not post a lot, but when he does he generally contributes discussion worthy of my expectations.

DocPotter:

DP's original account (Annachie) also read town for me, and I stand by that also. Having said that, I am somewhat uncertain, but nothing warranting a vote.

DizzyIzzyB13:

She's confirmed town, nothing to see here.

curiouskarmadog:

I hate his aggression, but I don't sense scum from him... I still think that his attitude is anti-town if he thinks he is in the right when in fact he isn't.

sorasgoof:

As with pman, I find him misguided/noob town. Sure, he might have played anti-town early on, and that shouldn't be completely discounted, but I really think he's redeemed himself. If he or pman flips, it should be relatively easy to figure out the role of the other.

Konowa:

Neutral read on him at the moment. Probably town, slight chance that he could be scum.

Me:

Town, obviously.

As you can see, I think Raven is most likely scum at this point. Regardless, it's not LyLo (or MyLo) so even if he does flip town, we still have a smaller pool to choose from tomorrow. Best case scenario, he flips scum, worst case scenario, he flips a Town PR (if I had to guess, I'd say cop) and best worst case scenario, he flips VT in which case all we lose is a vote and we gain some info on possible scum judging by his wagon. Thoughts?

[pman5595]

Even if you aren't, you are still playing anti-town

. You lurk, tunnel and wish-wash vote in combination with your lurking. Can we please lynch him now?

That's fine if you think he's scum (I, for one, do not), but don't you think that this late in the game we should really try not to lynch a townie? I'd rather have an anti-town playing townie alive than a mafioso.

Anyway, this game is coming to a stand still. I do think that we need to come together for a lynch, but how do we do that if WE DON'T AGREE?

no comment on my counter case? are you coming to your senses and seeing I'm not scum?

Also, any reasons for your town read on CCARaven?

[ready2rock]

Just the way you seemed to place Pie and Cherub in a positive light during day 1. Such as the quote above. Also a little voteing (Though a computer crash lost my coloured votals chart, so I have to rebuild it.)
You're not the only one of course, I had Pie as fairly town for a large part of day 1.

I'll learn more when I start on day 2.

Dizzy, you should look at all the wagons that got to around L-2 or so. Richard, for example, is on four of the five. (Actually six, but I can understand Richard not being on his own wagon)

1. For the second time, that post was on page 5.

2. I definitely was not the only one that found these two town on day 1

3. With the amount of voting that happened, I probably voted in common with everyone in the game as did TheLonging and Parama.

4. THAT POST WAS ON PAGE FIVE!

5. give me the post where I dried to "distract with info overload". The only post I can think of is the long post that I made because I missed the last part of day 1 and day 2 and needed to catch up.

@Richard: Thanks for ignoring me.

[DocPotter]

1145

1147

Posts you yourself described as useless.

re that post on page 5.

Seems to post good content and ask good questions to people.

Positive statement.

Not that it matters because it was an early thing I noticed as I was re-reading the game and catching up.
What matters is that you seem so keen to defend yourself on it, that you missed your second positive reference, and aparently missed that I also found Pie town on D1.


Why did you bring it back up anyway? Why did you quote that original post (#1450) again, and answer it again when I didn't mention it except to answer your specific question about it? I looked at the early D3 posts by people who aren't confirmed as town or scum. Has something happened between page 52 and now to confirm you that I don't know about yet?

[curiouskarmadog]

behind a couple pages, will try to catch up this weekend

[sorasgoof]

No, pman, I still think you're scum. I just don't feel like going through each of your counterarguments. What with all of this homework and Halo 3, I don't have time. Your arguments started out okay, and COMPLETELY fell apart when you started to defend your 39th post. Also, when I said I didn't like the way you jumped on Raven, I meant that I didn't like the way you jumped on him after you started to receive some suspicion the day before. It felt like you were trying to deflect it.

Also, I don't really have a reason for thinking Raven is town. It's more of a gut feeling than anything.

I'm willing to bet that there's only one mafia member left and one serial killer. That would bring our percentage of anti-town to town to 25% (at the beginning of the game), which I've read is normal. If there are two mafia left, and one serial killer, that would be 30%, which is still within the realm of possibility, I guess, but that's beginning to stretch things, I think.

Anyway, the only person that I have any suspicions on at this point are pman. Carry on.

Oh, and here's something I just thought of. If we lynch pman, I think we gain some valuable information on both Raven and me. If he flips scum, then that almost clears us. If he flips town, then I wouldn't have a problem being lynched.

[ready2rock]

1145

1147

Posts you yourself described as useless.

re that post on page 5.

Seems to post good content and ask good questions to people.

Positive statement.

Not that it matters because it was an early thing I noticed as I was re-reading the game and catching up.
What matters is that you seem so keen to defend yourself on it, that you missed your second positive reference, and aparently missed that I also found Pie town on D1.


Why did you bring it back up anyway? Why did you quote that original post (#1450) again, and answer it again when I didn't mention it except to answer your specific question about it? I looked at the early D3 posts by people who aren't confirmed as town or scum. Has something happened between page 52 and now to confirm you that I don't know about yet?

1. I wouldn't call those useless.

1145: My catching up post (a post Konowa never responded to, by the way)
1147: I looked at the voting records, hoping that they would help, before realizing that we were never going to catch scum just by looking at their voting records. I wouldn't call them totally useless. You yourself were looking for voting records day 1, there they are.

2. I want to defend myself because you suspect me and seem be pushing a case on me. What am I supposed to be doing?

3. Again? I quoted it once. Please clarify if you mean something else.

4. Nothing "confirms" me as town, not even a claim. Nothing confirms me as scum, either.

Anyway, I don't think that finding a scum player town on day 1 makes me scum. In post 532, Fugitive found Navy and pie pro-town while finding diddin, TheLonging, and Parama scummy, yet he flipped town.

[CCARaven4]

If we lynch pman, I think we gain some valuable information on both Raven and me. If he flips scum, then that almost clears us. If he flips town, then I wouldn't have a problem being lynched.

I completely agree with your logic, but it doesn't have to be pman that we lynch, it can be any of us. If I get lynched now, and I flip town, then you're clear and pman should be the next lynch, and if I flip scum, then you're the next lynch and pman's town. Same if you get lynched for me and pman. It doesn't matter who gets lynched at this point, as long as it's one out of us three, and I'm okay with it being me because if I can give my 'life' to lynch scum (pman), it'll help the town and that's good.

[sorasgoof]

If we lynch pman, I think we gain some valuable information on both Raven and me. If he flips scum, then that almost clears us. If he flips town, then I wouldn't have a problem being lynched.

I completely agree with your logic, but it doesn't have to be pman that we lynch, it can be any of us. If I get lynched now, and I flip town, then you're clear and pman should be the next lynch, and if I flip scum, then you're the next lynch and pman's town. Same if you get lynched for me and pman. It doesn't matter who gets lynched at this point, as long as it's one out of us three, and I'm okay with it being me because if I can give my 'life' to lynch scum (pman), it'll help the town and that's good.

Yeah, that makes sense. It doesn't necessarily have to be pman, I guess. Also, we can't be 100% sure that ANY of us three are scum, but because I know I'm a townie, and I think you are, that leaves pman. I just find him to be the scummiest person in the game right now, and I'm

almost

completely sure he's scum. Heck, I'm almost sure enough to volunteer to be the lynch today on the condition that he gets lynched tomorrow.

[pman5595]

I completely agree with your logic, but it doesn't have to be pman that we lynch, it can be any of us. If I get lynched now, and I flip town, then you're clear and pman should be the next lynch, and if I flip scum, then you're the next lynch and pman's town. Same if you get lynched for me and pman. It doesn't matter who gets lynched at this point, as long as it's one out of us three, and I'm okay with it being me because if I can give my 'life' to lynch scum (pman), it'll help the town and that's good.

Lets go over this.

You get lynched. You flip scum. I am either scum or town. Soras is either scum or town.
You get lynched. You flip town. I am either scum or town. Soras is either scum or town
Soras gets lynched. He flips scum. I am either scum or town. You are either scum or town.
Soras gets lynched. He flips town. I am either scum or town. You are either scum or town.
I get lynched. I flip scum. You are either scum or town. Soras is either scum or town.
I get lynched. I flip scum. You are either scum or town. Soras is either scum or town.

[CCARaven4]

Lets go over this.

You get lynched. You flip scum. I am either scum or town. Soras is either scum or town.
You get lynched. You flip town. I am either scum or town. Soras is either scum or town
Soras gets lynched. He flips scum. I am either scum or town. You are either scum or town.
Soras gets lynched. He flips town. I am either scum or town. You are either scum or town.
I get lynched. I flip scum. You are either scum or town. Soras is either scum or town.
I get lynched. I flip scum. You are either scum or town. Soras is either scum or town.

I couldn't disagree more.

I get lynched. I flip scum. You are town, soras is scum.
I get lynched. I flip town. You are scum, soras is town.
Soras gets lynched. He flips scum. I am scum, you are town.
Soras gets lynched. He flips town. I am town, you are scum.
You get lynched. You flip scum. Both soras and I are town.
You get lynched. You flip town. Both soras and I are scum.

[pman5595]

All of this is hypothetical.

I get lynched. I flip scum. You are town, soras is scum.

I could be scum bussing. Soras could be misguided town

I get lynched. I flip town. You are scum, soras is town.

I could be misguided town. Soras could be bussing.

Soras gets lynched. He flips scum. I am scum, you are town.

You could be town being defended by scum. I could be scum bussing.

Soras gets lynched. He flips town. I am town, you are scum.

You could be scum soras misguidingly defended. I could be misguided town.

You get lynched. You flip scum. Both soras and I are town.

Both of you could be bussing.

You get lynched. You flip town. Both soras and I are scum.

you could both be misguided town.

The point I am trying to make here, is that I am voting Raven because I think he is scummy. No matter what his flip, it doesn't make someone either town or scum. There is such a thing as bussing, and there is such a thing as town thinking another townie is scum because, guess what. THEY DON'T KNOW WHO IS SCUM OR TOWN.

[Konowa]

Snow has completely thrown me off schedule this week. Rereading and refreshing.

[Konowa]

Running short on time today.

Think that Raven is mafia.
Think that Bogre is SK.

[DocPotter]

Actually, I'm not sure how useful that will be

Again, not that it matters.

vote CCARaven

Despite other distractions, he's still my prefered lynch for today.

[RichardGHP]

Halfway there...

@Konowa - Why do you think Bogre is the SK? I don't expect an answer out of you right away since you're tight for time, but just whenever you get a chance to read a little more closely.

@ckd - How are you going with reading the thread? Your thoughts on this post please?

@everyone not voting - Why are you not voting?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I'm not voting because I'm not sure who's worth a vote.

I'm unconvinced as to the merits of a Raven lynch - as stupid as some of the things he's said have been, it's also consistent with newbish play, and he's undoubtedly a newb.

[ready2rock]

Actually, I'm not sure how useful that will be

Read my last post concerning 1147 and you'll see why I made that post.

@Konowa: As a follow-up to Richard's question, why do you think that Bogre is a better lynch today than CCARaven4?