Newbie #916 - Itty Bitty Mafia (Game Over!)

[mb53]

I'm still reading, but one thing I don't get is why Jasper unvoted me after expressing suspicion of me. (I'm assuming that's what he was doing when he called bs on my post regarding ending rvs vs extending it.)

Something about that feels off.

Unvote: Vote: Jasper

Did you find links to the other games?

^ This, his posting habits, and that he has only really talked to ICE and zach. This might not be scummish, but it sure is annoying me.

[chnorek]

I prefer to keep my list hidden, giving it out will benefit scum much more than it would benefit town.

This helps nobody. It is always best to hear reasons for behaviour, then judge whether those reasons are adequate.

In this stage of game its best for who?

my stupid posts to mb53 were considered as overreating. ICE not so stupid posts were considered as overreacting. Please tell how could i end my convo with mb53 to be considered as not overreacting.

There IS a middle ground between overreacting and not answering questions. Deal with all concerns that are real, but don't take anything personally or panic.

that does not answer my question. am i in middle ground or not answering or overreacting?

The thing that makes this OMGUS is that chnorek explicitly chsoe MMM to attack and create a case on solely because MMM commented on chnorek's saying he is waiting for feedback and his noncommitance.

who else comment for could i have been waiting for? MMM post did bring nothing new in my case, there is no reason to put vote on him just because of this single post. I have explained my reasons already, im fine if you dont agree but dont tell me that i had something else in my mind.

Chnorek's case consists of
1)MMM overreacting on ICE. Overdefensiveness, overreacting, over anything is purely subjective therefore making it near impossible to use as a scumtell. I view MMM's pressure on ICE justified, everyone7 needs pressure, and MMM has not just specificly tunneled on ICE, apparent with his question chnorek.

not sure but if you mean "feedback" question i have answered it just above. if not please clarify.

2)I already stated that people are exaggerating his joke posts. The RVS can't count its explicitly stated as RANDOM.

There is a hole in your logic. You are justyfing MMM attack on ICE and attacking me for same reason. However i do not attack MMM for his random voting.

Also, this:

I suppose chnorek and mb53 are possible buddies, their RVS debate being a staged distancing. They seem to agree on other matters.

Especially with mb53 finding MMM suspicious because chnorek started in on MMM.

that is what i would call shifting focus.

[kunkstar7]

Well, annoying is entirely different than scummish. Zach does make a point against Jasper that should be considered. But I find it much more scummy that you say a major part of your suspicion on someone is because they are annoying. That strongly leans toward emotional voting, which in my mind is scummy. Liking my read on mb53 right now.

[kunkstar7]

The thing that makes this OMGUS is that chnorek explicitly chsoe MMM to attack and create a case on solely because MMM commented on chnorek's saying he is waiting for feedback and his noncommitance.

who else comment for could i have been waiting for? MMM post did bring nothing new in my case, there is no reason to put vote on him just because of this single post. I have explained my reasons already, im fine if you dont agree but dont tell me that i had something else in my mind.

This is incorrect as in your original post:

you read me wrong. i was referring to MAB getting vote that wasnt random anymore, not to mb53 who did put a vote.
i dont think building reasonable wagons is scummy as long as someone wont hammer too early. im about to change my own vote, just waiting for a little feedback from other people.

Was directed at me and in no way did you specify that you were waiting for MMM's reaction solely. It was a purely open-ended comment. Therefore by choosing to single out MMM and vote him when he commented on your post, you were committing OMGUS.

Chnorek's case consists of
1)MMM overreacting on ICE. Overdefensiveness, overreacting, over anything is purely subjective therefore making it near impossible to use as a scumtell. I view MMM's pressure on ICE justified, everyone needs pressure, and MMM has not just specificly tunneled on ICE, apparent with his question chnorek.

not sure but if you mean "feedback" question i have answered it just above. if not please clarify.

I was referring to your reasons why you chose to vote MMM, in this quote your reason numbered one. I was stating why I viewed that section of your reasoning to be false.

2)I already stated that people are exaggerating his joke posts. The RVS can't count its explicitly stated as RANDOM.

There is a hole in your logic. You are justyfing MMM attack on ICE and attacking me for same reason. However i do not attack MMM for his random voting.

Not sure where you were headed with this hole in my logic. I simply stated that you were exaggerating MMM's jokes and their amount to make them appear scummy. The original joke was the RVS, so if you don't count that there are only two other single sentence jokes that MMM has said, thus he has not been mostly joking.

Also, this:

I suppose chnorek and mb53 are possible buddies, their RVS debate being a staged distancing. They seem to agree on other matters.

Especially with mb53 finding MMM suspicious because chnorek started in on MMM.

that is what i would call shifting focus.

I am connecting a player I currently find suspicious with another seeing what connections might be occurring. Mb53 has been pretty blatantly buddying you at this point, but recently tried to retracting into distancing, almost as if he has been caught and trying to cover up. If you are going to harp on MMM for tunnelling on ICE then surely you cannot see this as a point against me, or face the reality that you are being contradictory.

[mb53]

But I didn't vote for Jasper, or even say he was scummy. I said that I was suspicious, then you asked why so I answered. So far your case on me is seeming rather similar to my case on MaB was. Except for the buddying theory of me and chnorek, but that is of course assuming that chnorek is scum.

Speaking of the chnorik/MMM, the reason I went with attacking MMM when chnorik did is that I'm not a great offensive player. I knew that I would easily be swatted down, so I waited to see who would go for who then join in. At the time he reasons seemed good, but after re-reading I found that both chnorik and MMM didn't have great reasons for anything, leading to my thought of chnorik and MMM being scum.

[Miserable At Best]

Miserable, you seem to be more comfortable when people respond with long and thorough posts. Do you feel that anyone isn't saying enough when responding to comments and questions directed towards them?

I just saw this, sorry. I feel more comfortable when people respond with long thorough posts, yeah, but that's just how I function. It makes it easier for me to direct what I'm saying things towards, it also makes it easier to figure out who may/may not be scum; rather than trying to sift through a ton of meaningless, short posts. It's not that I don't mind short posts, it just makes it harder for me - since I tend to accidentally skip over smaller posts. Larger posts you can't really miss, and they hold a lot more content within them. I probably reiterated a lot in that sentence. Yes, I do feel like that. I'm so close to voting for Jasper on the basis that he isn't really active and when he does post, they're pretty vague and don't have any sort of content in them, but I'm holding off on that for now, since we're still early in the game.

[chnorek]

1) im not sure what you are trying to say. first quote i said im waiting for feedback. second one partialy (important part in your opinion i believe) i fixed your interpretation. in my orginal comment i was trying to say that i see MAB as newbie-town rather than newbie-scum for his reaction on mb53 post. "being put" and "to put someone" is big difference. Here is the context:

Miserable (I don't really want to call him MaB because that is too similar to mb, and I would like to avoid confusion) seems to be on the defensive side. I'm going to be watching closely to how he reacts to votes on him, and where he places his vote for sure.

he is a little overreacting for sure (L-3) but i would take it as newbie town read rather than newbie scum.

2) true i was waiting for MMM post. also it was truly open-ended as i didnt want to vote before MMM answer ICE. I was wondering if he could bring something new. He didnt in my opinion so i did put a vote on him. dont think there is anything more to say in this case. consider it OMGUS or not, its up to you.

3) im more than fine if you do not agree with me, im not expecting everyone to follow me. that is one of reasons of me not willing show my scum/town list. Im glad to see reactions of everyone on my vote.

4) please compare number of jokes to real content. Being optimist i can take it as 50/50, but thats it. This ratio is not good enough for me, rather scummy than innocent when it comes from SE person.

5) im fine with you seeing connection between me and mb53, yes it does look like distancing, buddying and distancing again. but i see it more like newbie-town who is a little lost, thats it. Cant really do much about it.

[kunkstar7]

I was trying to show how your vote was OMGUS. I'll try to summarize it now. Your response to me mentioned something about waiting for feedback. MMM said why don't you commit to anyone being scummy. You decided to vote him and make a case up then. This is the OMGUS. Making a case/voting MMM because he called your noncomittance.

true i was waiting for MMM post. also it was truly open-ended as i didnt want to vote before MMM answer ICE. I was wondering if he could bring something new. He didnt in my opinion so i did put a vote on him.

The weird thing is you make it out to be like you were decently suspicious of MMM to begin with. I see little to mention or hint of this from your preceding points. So since you had not expressed any real previous suspicion of MMM, it seems like you made it up on the spot.

4) please compare number of jokes to real content. Being optimist i can take it as 50/50, but thats it. This ratio is not good enough for me, rather scummy than innocent when it comes from SE person.

I would like you to compare them yourself. I have reviewed MMM in iso several times, and I count two lines of jokes total, plus the initial random vote. So I don't see anything even close to 50:50 ratio. The joke lines didn't even consist of the entire post either. So 2 lines out of lets say 20 current posts? Nowhere even close to a lot of joking. So concede this point.

3) im more than fine if you do not agree with me, im not expecting everyone to follow me. that is one of reasons of me not willing show my scum/town list. Im glad to see reactions of everyone on my vote.

This makes me happy with my vote on you. Why are you not willing to share opinions/reads with the rest of town? Only scum need to hide. By withholding your reads and opinions from town and stating that you are doing so, its blatantly saying you are hiding information from town. You may be gaining reads from your votes but how does that help the town reach a collective decision?

[mb53]

if you keep information for yourself you dont help town. Basicly only scum can have reason for not helping town.

[ICEninja]

I absolutely agree with people saying that chnorek shouldn't be withholding information. There are times when it can be good to hold a few cards close to your chest, but I can't think of a single situation that applies on day 1.

It is one thing if you doc saved someone and you know who you saved. You are the only townie who can be absolutely sure that person is clean, but by telling the town you know this for sure you get NKed. In situations like this, withholding information can be smart.

However, mb pointed out that even you yourself said that town needs to share information. You've been caught in a direct contradiction, which is a bad place to be if you're a townie. This definitely made you lose a lot of credibility in my eyes, which is unfortunate because in the first 5 pages you looked really good.

MMM is looking slightly better to me now that he has presented a lot more content. Jasper is looking worse and worse the more time goes on, as his content contribution has not changed really. I still don't have enough on Jasper, however, to actually outright call him scummy. So right now I will call him anti-town.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

so I waited to see who would go for who then join in.

This is never a good idea. It's very scummy, and combined with your buddying makes you look really bad.

Please note, it's 7:05 AM where I am right now, and I am not usually an early riser, so this post might be a little garbled.

I'm going to vote chnorek for the following reasons:

1) Lack of content. Now that he's been put on the spot for it, he's improved, but I'm not forgetting the reason I put FoS on him in the first place: he didn't say who he thought was scum/town. His votes and posts do not correspond. He says he likes to keep his list private, which is never a good idea for town, no matter how you look at it. It goes against the basic principle of the game, we share information to find scum, we accuse people so they defend themselves, refusing to do either of these things doesn't make any sense.

2) A weak, OMGUS attack. His reasons for voting me consist of: a) I attacked ICEninja too much then backed off, b) I joke too much, and c) I post little content. For the ICEninja thing, the choice was either to go after ICE or let conversation grind to a halt. I still believe I made the right call, ICE's ending of RVS was scummy and needed to be seriously addressed. I backed off when it became clear ICE was not going to slip up and make any more scumtells, and I wanted to concentrate on other people. I see how the abrupt ending may have seemed scummy, but it wasn't to me. Secondly, yes, I joked at first. Read over my last game, Newbie 885, and you'll see why. We were laughing it up, even in lylo. When it became clear to me this was a more serious game, I stopped, and haven't made a joke since. Under the right conditions, joking can be a scumtell, but I don't see what I was supposed to be covering up. The third reason is that I don't post content, but fake content. I really don't know what to say here, when I asked for an example, chnorek basically said "you find it". I find it a little ironic that he used my argument on him against me.

3) Out of RVS.

we are not well out of RVS even now.

The rest of us just had a big discussion about the ending of RVS. I don't see how you could've missed that. Also, if this was RVS, it would mean that my questioning on you, and your vote on me was not to be taken seriously. You've used that defence elsewhere, that you did not address my concerns initially because you thought they were not to be taken seriously. I really can't believe that. I questioned you seriously. You then attacked me, and continued to attack me. You never so much glanced at me before I questioned you, then you voted me. That is OMGUS no matter how you look at it, and it means that you took my suspicions seriously. Which means that your defence that you didn't think I was serious is illogical.

4) 50/50 joke/content ratio. Really? It's one thing to say that I'm joking too much, but once we got serious, and out of RVS for good, I toned it down. And I don't know what the issue is with my content, can someone else explain that, since chnorek earlier refused to provide examples?

5) Poor defence. Looking over our debates, it looks quite sad. When I countered his arguments, he'd make them again in a different form, and I'd use the same defence, over and over. Meanwhile, I haven't received a good response to any of my concerns, in some cases he flat out refuses to elaborate.

Vote: chnorek

I'm also looking at mb53, he's done a good job of buddying ICE and chnorek, and he switched from me to chnorek pretty quickly. Jasper needs to post more. I want to know who he thinks is scummy, and why. At this point, though, he hasn't done much more than Zachrulez. kunkstar7 looks town, Steely Gaze is probably town, Miserable At Best could go either way. ICEninja, excuse me if this is too joking, but he really does look like a computer program designed to play mafia, he appears to be imitating human behaviour without getting emotionally involved in any way. I'm not really sure if that's town or scum.

Anyway, I think I've got enough on chnorek for day 1.

[Steely Gaze]

Wow, I come to this thread this morning and find a whole host of new things to consider.

I'm torn on the Chnorek scum/town question because, honestly, in his early game all I got from him was new Mafia player/poor English townie vibes. Now I'm thinking newbie scum instead...

Hiding your suspect list is a very, very bad thing to do, especially this early in the game.

And having said that, I realize I haven't posted one myself. I think I've a better read on some of the players after a couple days, so here goes.

ICEninja is probably town, but I'm still going to keep an eye on his actions to see if they change. He doesn't always respond to questions, even though I'll concede that some of those questions (mine) weren't amazingly insightful.

MMM is giving me town vibes as well. Early on I considered Chnorek's argument against him and found some of it to be true, but I feel he's defended himself admirably and has actually provided some serious content.

Zach isn't necessarily giving me scummy vibes, but he's not giving me town vibes either. More content, not necessarily posts, is needed!

Mb53 feels like a new townie to me. He's made some bad decisions, but has genuinely seemed to try. So I'm inclined to believe him thus far, but if new evidence comes to light, I'm willing to hear it out closely.

Jasper has slipped to number two in my suspect list. I still don't like his lack of content. Utterly empty. If he does nothing to change that, he'll be back in number one very quickly.

Kunkstar is a tricky read for me. I want to say town, but he hasn't made a lot of great content posts so far. Still, nothing altogether scummy.

MaB is another hard read. Not a lot of content so far. I intend to read through his posts in ISO later today to try and get a better read on him.

Chnorek is now my number one suspect. I've made allowances for his English, but that doesn't leave his sudden attack strategy in the clear. His whole assault on MMM is definitely OMGUS, and by him trying so very hard to justify it, he feels like scum. Add to that his refusal to share his own personal scum/town list, and I strongly dislike it.

That's my basic scum/town list as it stands right now.

[Steely Gaze]

Steely, if you could cop inspect someone (please don't admit to being a cop, I don't want any role fishing to come from this question) right now, who would it be and why?

I'd probably investigate you, to be honest. Then I'd know for certain whose side you were on and I wouldn't have to constantly double-check your posts for ulterior designs.

Oh, and I'm going to

Unvote

and

Vote Jasper

to apply a bit of pressure. Come on, give me some real content man! At least Chnorek is giving posts with some kind of content (whether it's good for him or not), so I think it's fair to ask you to do the same.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

Yeah, I want content from Jasper too. I can't get on the bandwagon with his vote/unvote on Zach, since that was made in RVS, and unvoted when we were out of RVS.

At least Chnorek is giving posts with some kind of content (whether it's good for him or not)

I actually go the other way on this issue, I'm inclined to give Jasper more slack because he hasn't defended himself, whereas chnorek's responses are scummy.

But, as I said, he does have to post more.

[chnorek]

sory im late, i just woke up.

I'm going to vote chnorek for the following reasons:

1) Lack of content. Now that he's been put on the spot for it, he's improved, but I'm not forgetting the reason I put FoS on him in the first place: he didn't say who he thought was scum/town. His votes and posts do not correspond. He says he likes to keep his list private, which is never a good idea for town, no matter how you look at it. It goes against the basic principle of the game, we share information to find scum, we accuse people so they defend themselves, refusing to do either of these things doesn't make any sense.

in first place you FoS me for overreacting on mb53 and nothing more.

As for keeping list if everyone of us post their scum/town list it will make scum job easier. scum will be able to concentrate on weakest target to build wagon. Giving 2-3 suspects at a time is enough for town and doesnt help scum too much.

When it comes to hidding information and providing content:
- i did question ICE about him refusing to vote (39) <-- answered
- i did question Steely about "backseat approach" of ICE (71) <-- answered
- i did question Zach about possibly lurking (104) <-- answered
- i did question Jasper about his reasoning for negative opinion on ICE (51) <-- not answered
- i gave you notice about joking/distancing (59) <-- answered
- i have stated that MAB is more likely town than scum (98)
that was all before my vote and not repeating what others have already said.

The third reason is that I don't post content, but fake content. I really don't know what to say here, when I asked for an example, chnorek basically said "you find it". I find it a little ironic that he used my argument on him against me.

alright in other words: find posts that bring anything interesting before my vote. It shoud be much easier than finding posts that do not bring anything in my opinion. I have provided summary of my input just above.

3) Out of RVS.

we are not well out of RVS even now.

The rest of us just had a big discussion about the ending of RVS. I don't see how you could've missed that. Also, if this was RVS, it would mean that my questioning on you, and your vote on me was not to be taken seriously. You've used that defence elsewhere, that you did not address my concerns initially because you thought they were not to be taken seriously. I really can't believe that. I questioned you seriously. You then attacked me, and continued to attack me. You never so much glanced at me before I questioned you, then you voted me. That is OMGUS no matter how you look at it, and it means that you took my suspicions seriously. Which means that your defence that you didn't think I was serious is illogical.

Why you cut rest of my words? I think i have made it clear that most of votes on people are still random. Just because there was discussion about ending of RVS doesnt mean it have ended.
Maybe late but i did answer your question to me. Reminder: "answering your question would be really overreacting". Now since you bring it again i have asked what answer i could possibly provide to not look like im overreacting. Its clear i gave up, you got me. Now show me what answer would satisfy you because i dont find any, all answeres are wrong.
Now you complain that i have attacked you and continued to attack and finally voted on you. However few posts above you are complaining about me not addresing any issues? There is something wrong, was i attacking you before vote or not?

5) Poor defence. Looking over our debates, it looks quite sad. When I countered his arguments, he'd make them again in a different form, and I'd use the same defence, over and over. Meanwhile, I haven't received a good response to any of my concerns, in some cases he flat out refuses to elaborate.

you didnt really answer my questions. Actually you are getting a little lost in your stories how the things went, misinterpreting my words on purpose.

Anyway, I think I've got enough on chnorek for day 1.

im happy to see it.


----

unvote

You can agree or not with me about giving town list, it does depend on playstyle, debating about this makes not much sense.

As for OMGUS yes i did not had good enough reasons, i was doing preassure vote to get reactions and i got it.

[Mr. Flay]

Second Vote Count of Day One:

chnorek - 2 (kunkstar7, Mysterious Mystery Man)
Jasper - 2 (Zachrulez, Steely Gaze)

Miserable At Best - 1 (mb53)

Not Voting: 4 (ICEninja, Miserable At Best, Jasper, chnorek)

With nine alive, it will take five votes to lynch someone.

[mb53]

As for keeping list if everyone of us post their scum/town list it will make scum job easier. scum will be able to concentrate on weakest target to build wagon. Giving 2-3 suspects at a time is enough for town and doesnt help scum too much.

Then just give who you think is town.

[mb53]

Unvote

I see nothing worth voting for on MaB atm.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

Now you complain that i have attacked you and continued to attack and finally voted on you. However few posts above you are complaining about me not addresing any issues? There is something wrong, was i attacking you before vote or not?

You first attacked me when you voted me. Then you continued to attack.

As for keeping list if everyone of us post their scum/town list it will make scum job easier. scum will be able to concentrate on weakest target to build wagon.

mb53 already did this, but because it was so appropriate, here it is again:

Jasper if you keep information for yourself you dont help town. Basicly only scum can have reason for not helping town.

Contradicting yourself again.

Just because there was discussion about ending of RVS doesnt mean it have ended.

Zach, who's extending RVS? I think ICEninja effectively ended it... I'd still like to know why ICEninja ended RVS so quickly... But anyway, we're here now.

As it were I think the RVS is over considering we do have a discussion begun.

but we allowed him to bring us out of the RVS quite quickly.

RVS is over. It ended a while ago. I really don't see how you couldn't have known that.

As for OMGUS yes i did not had good enough reasons, i was doing preassure vote to get reactions and i got it.

Oh, this is the icing on the cake. Really. And you gave me crap for leaving a back door. Well, I'm glad you got the reaction you wanted, because my reaction is I'm positive you are scum. You cannot say "OK, I was just testing your reactions, never mind all that" and expect us to believe it. This has gone on far too long for it to be a simple pressure vote. And what reaction were you looking for, exactly? You wanted to see how far you could push me before I snapped and declared you scum? Well, *snap*.

Let's recap, shall we?

You made a vote with bogus reasoning in response to a concern I had.

You then continued to defend that reasoning, and denied it was OMGUS.

You claim that you were focusing on me earlier in the game, but lack the posts to justify that kind of reaction.

As a follow-up to that claim, you say you keep your scum list secret, even though doing so flies in the face of both common sense and your own earlier post.

You then claim that you thought my concerns were not serious because you thought it was RVS, even though that does not justify your vote, and it should have been obvious to everyone that RVS was over.

Finally, when kunkstar7, mb53, Steely Gaze, and even ICEninja all turn against you, you play the "make it go away now" card, unvote, admit your reasoning was flawed, and pretend you just wanted a reaction from me.

Well, I don't buy any of it. There are too many contradictions, too many poor defences. You've dug yourself into a hole, and you're too deep to climb out.

[mb53]

I think that MMM as made good enough arguments for me to

Vote: chnorek

. Also, I thought that the chnorek vs. MMM earlier on was just distancing, but no way would they be pushing each other this hard if they were scum buddies. So, I do not suspect MMM anymore.

[chnorek]

well that makes me L-2.

And dont hammer me too quick, i will post all my conslusions before getting lynched, would be too early in my opinion but can be that i wont have chance anymore.

@MMM you are choosing only little parts of my posts. Hoping for speedlynch before someone actually read what i was saying?

[Steely Gaze]

No one's going to hammer, not this early. It'd be bad form to lynch right away. Right people? We've got time, so no one ought to jump the gun.

But you're right, Chnorek. You'd better post your supposed conclusions, 'cause withholding is only making you look worse and worse. I

have

read all of your posts, and honestly I can't say MMM is taking them out of context. So far you've managed to contradict yourself on a vital issue and focus a baseless attack that you had plenty of opportunity to ease back from. Instead you fought all the harder to prove why your point is valid when it really isn't.

Either you're tunneling or trying to convince us through sheer force of conviction that you're town. Neither is working very well.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

@MMM you are choosing only little parts of my posts. Hoping for speedlynch before someone actually read what i was saying?

Again, is there any quote in particular you feel has been taken out of context or misrepresented? Any specific examples you can site? And I let your vote sit on me for quite a while before I became certain you were scum.

mb53, I would like to hear your case on chnorek. I notice you join whichever bandwagon seems strongest at the moment, which is quite scummy.

[mb53]

I have been suspicious of chnorek a little before post 139, and I kept getting more suspicious of him and less of you. As I said in 139 he keeps contradicting himself, and more and more now.
Contradiction #1:

you have a vote on you because of weird name, before attacking someone else for same reason (weird name) i suggest to find good reason for your own name.

In that post he says defend yourself before attacking, which he isn't really doing.
Contradiction #2:

if you keep information for yourself you dont help town. Basicly only scum can have reason for not helping town.

I prefer to keep my list hidden

Contradiction #3:

i dont think building reasonable wagons is scummy as long as someone wont hammer too early. im about to change my own vote, just waiting for a little feedback from other people.

(note he said people, not someone). After that post,

I guess that leaves my #1 as chnorek.

chnorek, on the other hand, started off with a bang, overreacting in RVS, then slowly pulled back, leaving short posts with little content. He said he'd change his vote, but was waiting for feedback, what feedback? Why won't you commit to anyone that you think is scummy?

Immediately after, he overreacts again seeing that a wagon on him has a small chance of being built, and goes for MMM. I guess that can count as 1 1/2, one for the wagon, one for the people.

Contradiction #4
chnorek continued to deny that it was OMGUS and then says:

As for OMGUS yes i did not had good enough reasons, i was doing preassure vote to get reactions and i got it.

Now this post by MMM really made me decide to vote.

You made a vote with bogus reasoning in response to a concern I had.

You then continued to defend that reasoning, and denied it was OMGUS.

You claim that you were focusing on me earlier in the game, but lack the posts to justify that kind of reaction.

As a follow-up to that claim, you say you keep your scum list secret, even though doing so flies in the face of both common sense and your own earlier post.

You then claim that you thought my concerns were not serious because you thought it was RVS, even though that does not justify your vote, and it should have been obvious to everyone that RVS was over.

Finally, when kunkstar7, mb53, Steely Gaze, and even ICEninja all turn against you, you play the "make it go away now" card, unvote, admit your reasoning was flawed, and pretend you just wanted a reaction from me.

Well, I don't buy any of it. There are too many contradictions, too many poor defences. You've dug yourself into a hole, and you're too deep to climb out.

I'm sure that there were other things that I saw, I will try to find some over the weekend.

[ICEninja]

Wow, there is quite the interesting argument to talk about. First I'm going to respond to a couple things directed at me. Then on to my thoughts on what has happened.

ICEninja is probably town, but I'm still going to keep an eye on his actions to see if they change. He doesn't always respond to questions

Stuff is moving so fast, it is easy to miss some questions. If they're still relevant, can you point out any questions I haven't answered? I'll get right to them in my next post.

ICEninja, excuse me if this is too joking, but he really does look like a computer program designed to play mafia, he appears to be imitating human behaviour without getting emotionally involved in any way. I'm not really sure if that's town or scum.

This made me chuckle. I'm not exactly sure how to respond to it, as I actually take it as somewhat of a compliment. That statement somewhat implies that I'm good at this game. It does make sense, though. I take on somewhat of an alternate persona when playing this game. Emotional involvement makes things much more difficult to logically follow, and if I may step a bit out of character to lighten the mood, anyone who has been in an argument with a girl knows that logic and emotions mix about as well as oil and water.

Now, having a look at what is going on between MMM and chnorek, I agree that chnorek has been caught in some bad positions. MMM's long post that resulted in a vote for chnorek was a well made case, and his points connect. You don't take his stuff significantly out of context, though I'm not so sure about you using his statement about the RVS not being over yet. I suppose if you think about the term broadly enough, most of day 1 ends up being RVS. We really don't have any solid information to go on except for small things we notice and build a case out of. That being said, I feel we were done with the RVS by post 40.

I do notice that chnorek seems to use the same points over and over. If you can't point out where MMM is being "fake" then you don't have that argument. He is exactly right in saying that YOU are the one who has the burden of showing us where he has done this, and if you cannot, then your case on him falls apart and you have nothing.

Which is probably why you unvoted. You really did not have much. My early read on him (and everyone) was based on gut from things I saw, not any real information. However, your unvote was simply too abrupt. You haven't conceded any points, admitted to townish behavior, pointed out any other scum suspects, or really done anything to make me feel like you believe in your unvote.

Your unvote, to me, looks like you realized you pushed too far behind enemy lines without any backup. Now you're just turning tail and running without any plan or direction. This sort of flight looks really bad, attracts attention, and is going to get you shot.

However, amidst all of this, I'm really concerned about a few players who are dropping under the radar. Jasper is either inactive or lurking, which is either way bad for the town. If he comes in and throws down a vote without a sufficient explanation of his logic and thought process, that is going to set off bigger alarms in my mind than anything that has happened between MMM and chnorek so far.

Miserable always seems to be a step behind. This is understandable considering the pace of the game, but it seems like he's always commenting on things that have already happened, and doesn't do much to contribute to the advancing game. I need to see Miserable take a more proactive stance and do some questioning, some pointing out of things that others may have missed, and share some views on people other than the obvious.

Finally, Zach has still gone most of this game without saying much at all. His posts are generally speaking to or responding to one specific person, and very little broad or deep thinking has come from his posts. Besides Jasper, no one really knows how Zach feels about anyone.

Everyone else seems to be actively and constructively contributing to discussion and is looking fairly town to me at the moment.