Mafia 109 - A Glitch in time - Game Over!

[Parama]

You're an idiot. Don't fake-vote.

I didn't fake unvote.

[Drippereth]

Please run me through the evidence PRIOR to the fake-hammer.

The evidence was purty skimpy. But sometimes you get lucky, which we did. The pseudo-death was a godsend. That's where the case is. And more recently, his stalling of his claim, followed by official refusal to claim.

You're an idiot. Don't fake-vote.

You ruined a perfectly good gambit. What were you thinking?

[Parama]

I'm thinking we lynch clergy now

vote: A clergyman with a hoop

[Maemuki]

Clergyhoop, let's face it, it was a RVS-wagon at first.

Then Nik says "I'M GOING TO SHUT UP WITHOUT CLAIMING" (a huge scumtell on my book, only scum don't want to make their role known after death, so that the town won't have time to speculate about scumbuddies/if the claim is true or not, blablabla) - while making a case on Mr. Active-lurker (or MaB). Everybody knows that it's easy to make cases on Active-lurkers. I don't see how Nik is "omgobvtown", I just don't. Where the hell did he act town?!

Hoops, Clergy, this is a speed game. What were you expecting? I mean, seriously.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Please run me through the evidence PRIOR to the fake-hammer.

The evidence was purty skimpy. But sometimes you get lucky, which we did. The pseudo-death was a godsend. That's where the case is. And more recently, his stalling of his claim, followed by official refusal to claim.

You're an idiot. Don't fake-vote.

You ruined a perfectly good gambit. What were you thinking?

How would you justify your position being on the wagon the next day if the wagon actually went through and Nikanor was town? I don't like people masquerading the idea that there was a ton of evidence for Nikanor deserving a quick-lynch, because it is 100% false. This is the first time anyone on the wagon has freely admitted that.

We would never have got the 'luck' if in an ill-conceived wagon wasn't created in the first place. That was a scummy wagon and you know it, especially when you concede there was little to no evidence. So, to me, when Maemuki is relieved the lynch didn't go through, and you're a smart enough player to know that a page 7 lynch on a page 2 case in less than a day isn't a smart town play, it makes me wonder how on earth this wagon generated so many votes. It is obviously scum-driven, which means it is highly unlikely Nikanor is scum, because a whole pack of scum bussing out of nowhere, for no reason does not make sense to me, and I'd love to see you try and justify that Nikanor's wagon was either A) town-driven, or B) scum are bussing for no reason.

~~

And fake-voting is a dirty trick that some people consider cheating, not in the spirit of the game etc. I don't care personally, but how do you expect it to work in the first place when Nikanor didn't claim from the first fake-hammer?

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Clergyhoop, let's face it, it was a RVS-wagon at first.

Remember, Nikanor's last post before he was fake hammered was on page 2, which means the entirity of the case came from those 4 posts. Do you think it is possible that this was nearly completely town-driven? If no, do you think scum would bus Nikanor based on nothing, when an alternate scum-driven quicklynch on someone else could have also worked?

Also, you still haven't given your definitive thoughts on Nikanor now. How likely do you think he is scum?

Hoops, Clergy, this is a speed game. What were you expecting? I mean, seriously.

We almost lynched in less than 24 hours, and that wagon essentially boiled down to, 'derp lol random voet: nikanor'. Just because it's a speed game, doesn't mean you don't have to use your brain (or less than 25% of the allotted time).

[Drippereth]

How would you justify your position being on the wagon the next day if the wagon actually went through and Nikanor was town?

He refused to claim. You said he was smart; therefore, I can't discount his refusal to claim on being VI.

I don't like people masquerading the idea that there was a ton of evidence for Nikanor deserving a quick-lynch, because it is 100% false.

No one has ever said that; this is, again, a speed game, and we didn't waste time, we ran up a wagon. And Nikanor turns out to be a claim-denying scum, in addition to his reaction to the pseudo-hammer not showing any signs of him being town whatsoever.

We would never have got the 'luck' if in an ill-conceived wagon wasn't created in the first place.

SO waht??? What's the problem with that? Who cares what the INITIAL reasons were???

That was a scummy wagon and you know it, especially when you concede there was little to no evidence.

Are you nuts. This is a spped game. We plunged in and started a wagon.

So, to me, when Maemuki is relieved the lynch didn't go through, and you're a smart enough player to know that a page 7 lynch on a page 2 case in less than a day isn't a smart town play, it makes me wonder how on earth this wagon generated so many votes.

It's a speed game. We need action. We cannot spend the first week dilly-dallying. I think you're making up stuff you don't even believe yourself.

It is obviously scum-driven, which means it is highly unlikely Nikanor is scum, because a whole pack of scum bussing out of nowhere

Ugh? How would you know??? THe guy freakin' refused to claim! NO GOOD LUCK TOWN, nothing. I've seen 100% of a 5-man scumteam bus their zwet-buddy on Day 1. So yep. Scums do bus out of nowhere. See: CSL.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

I don't see how Nik is "omgobvtown", I just don't. Where the hell did he act town?!.

He

didn't do anything special to warrant the title of 'omgobvtown'. It was everyone else who created this read, because bad wagons like that don't form on scum players randomly.

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Drippereth, I don't feel like you answered any of my questions. You're using speedgame!!! as a justification for random quicklynches. What information could you have possibly gleaned from a page 2 case if the first hammer went through?

[Yosarian2]

As someone who replaced CSL and has done a fair bit of meta on him, I can garauntee he would have done that no matter what alignment he is.

And if someone had said this CSL guy is a liability who doesn't know what he's doing, lets lynch him - tops as, I'm behind you 100%. But if you go on about how likely he is to be scum, that's suspicious.

Meh. I don't care if a player is supposed to be good or bad, we still have to try to read his alignment. And in this case, CSL looks to me like scum, probably newbie scum, but scum nonetheless. That's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with for his behavior towards Nik.

If you want to tell me that something CSL has done in this game is some kind of legitimate pro-town tell on him for meta reasons or something, that'd be a reasonable argument and I'd be interested to hear it. "He's a bad player so if you think he's scum there's something wrong with you" is not an argument; bad players are just as likely to be scum as anyone else.

[Yosarian2]

OK, we hammer you. Only scum refuses to claim; this, to bot, coming after days of stalling and missing opportunities.

Actually, town should often refuse to claim.

In any case, though, Nik, I really need to hear something useful from you. A defense, a case against someone, what you think about one of the other people, who you think we should lynch today, ect. Right now, I'm willing to see you lynched mostly because you have yet to really do anything all game, Nik.

[Drippereth]

Actually, town should often refuse to claim.

Oh yeah? Give me one instance other than SUPERSAINT or supersaint-like roles, where that holds.

[Yosarian2]

Actually, town should often refuse to claim.

Oh yeah? Give me one instance other than SUPERSAINT or supersaint-like roles, where that holds.

Well, for one, my mafia theory for a long time has been a vanilla townie should usually refuse to claim and just defend himself instead, on the grounds that a vanilla claim generally does not help the town at all, gives the town no useful information, will not help prevent a lynch, and generally just helps the scum.

There are times a vanilla claim is useful, but for the most part, it's better to not bother.

[Drippereth]

Vanilla should not claim??? I have never, EVER saw this applied in practice. You are lynched, it's twilight, you say: "well you idiots didn't give me a chance to claim but I'm vanilla."

Furthermore, I have often reversed my reads on a player claiming vanilla if they sound honest going down. I strongly disagree. Vanillas should continue to claim vanilla. That's completely absurd. I never heard of that.

[Yosarian2]

Vanilla should not claim??? I have never, EVER saw this applied in practice. You are lynched, it's twilight, you say: "well you idiots didn't give me a chance to claim but I'm vanilla."

Post lynch is a little different.

But before lynch, there's nothing to be gained by claiming vanilla.

As for "applied in practice"; you'd probably have a hard time finding a game when I ever claimed when vanilla. I think the last time I did was in a game when someone claimed tracker and claimed he saw me go somewhere when I was actually a vanilla townie, and that was years ago.

Furthermore, I have often reversed my reads on a player claiming vanilla if they sound honest going down. I strongly disagree. Vanillas should continue to claim vanilla. That's completely absurd. I never heard of that.

Eh, it's a theory I've been pushing a long time now, and a lot of people on this site agree with me these days; there's been a bunch of MD threads about the subject. Here's one:

viewtopic.php?t=2872

[A clergyman with a hoop]

Vanilla should not claim??? I have never, EVER saw this applied in practice. You are lynched, it's twilight, you say: "well you idiots didn't give me a chance to claim but I'm vanilla."

Furthermore, I have often reversed my reads on a player claiming vanilla if they sound honest going down

. I strongly disagree. Vanillas should continue to claim vanilla. That's completely absurd. I never heard of that.

Because most mafia players are indoctrinated to the culture of claiming - we have many games with differing themes and different roles get created every day. It is no wonder to me that site-meta has evolved to this stage.

But Yos is right in my opinion. If a player has been wagoned to L-1 and there is at least one person willing to hammer, a vanilla claim should not be enough to save them. Sometimes wagons to L-2 and L-1 will dissipate without the need for claims, and sometimes claiming prematurely will prevent this possibility. Claims should be a last ditch way to prevent a lynch, not a standard practice enforced universally on every wagon that gets close to lynch.

I would love to see some examples of you doing this.

[Drippereth]

That's from 2006, a necro'd thread that's 4 years old, and it obviously hasn't seeped into people's consciousness.

When your CLAIM TIME has come, there is NOT DOWN SIDE to claiming vanilla. None. You can say: "well, here's my claim, I'm vanilla, so no huge disaster here." You don't flat out refuse to claim. That's ridiculous.

Again, I've often reversed my reads on vanilla claims - provided they sound honest.

However, I guarantee that I will mercilessly push for the lynch of players that refuse to claim, because refusals to claim are more the domain of scums giving up than townies.

To quote Sanjay in that thread: "If it becomes fashionable for vanilla townies not to claim their role, mafia would be very quick to follow suit, thus adding an unnecessary role of complexity to the process that could be avoided by just claiming vanilla townie to begin with."

And SenFan: ". If you refused to claim, you would be lynched, so you might as well claim."

[Drippereth]

I would love to see some examples of you doing this.

I know I've done it, more than once. Based on wording and player's attitude. I can't show you examples, it's like a needle in a haystack. But I have done it. Many times. When you have someone saying, "sorry guys, I screwed up, I acted scummy but I'm town, and I'm resigned because I'm vanilla but at least we're not losing a power role" - if it sounds honest and genuine, I totally back down.

MORALE OF THE STORY:

"It's a good idea to claim vanilla in games with DrippingGoofball."

"But refuse to claim at your own peril."

[camn]

Theory aside. in

THIS GAME

... claiming is a pro-town thing to do, i think. Especially post-hammer. If you subscribe to the idea that a well-informed town is a victorious town, that is. Which I do.

That said.. I am willing to follow Yos on a CSL wagon if we cannot reach consensus re: Nika.
I DREAM of Drip-town, camn-town and Yos2-town all playing in concordance..... so if we 3 can come to an agreement, that would help my dream come true.

[Drippereth]

CSL is for the vig.

I wouldn't mind whacking Clergyhoop. But Nikanor is still scum for his un-town reaction to "being lynched." This is completely independent from theory discussions.

Besides, when you have a player like me screaming his/her head off that you should bloody claim already, that's a sign that would should bloody claim already, vanilla or not, regardless of some theory discussed by an handful of people some time ago.

[Parama]

unvote, vote Nikanor

random hammer mode activate

[A clergyman with a hoop]

CSL is for the vig.

I wouldn't mind whacking Clergyhoop. But Nikanor is still scum for his un-town reaction to "being lynched." This is completely independent from theory discussions.

Besides, when you have a player like me screaming his/her head off that you should bloody claim already, that's a sign that would should bloody claim already, vanilla or not, regardless of some theory discussed by an handful of people some time ago.

Is it the whole not claiming thing? I think that's just a personal choice thing. If your role is about to be flipped anyway, why do you need to say? It's the same principal of ruining the ending of a game in lylo, by saying what you were before the mod gets in.

Here's a recent thread I stumbled upon that might be illuminating for those skeptical about Nikanor's reaction to his 'being lynched'.

unvote, vote Nikanor

random hammer mode activate

I want to tear my hair out.

[Drippereth]

Theory aside. in

THIS GAME

... claiming is a pro-town thing to do, i think. Especially post-hammer. If you subscribe to the idea that a well-informed town is a victorious town, that is. Which I do.

That said.. I am willing to follow Yos on a CSL wagon if we cannot reach consensus re: Nika.
I DREAM of Drip-town, camn-town and Yos2-town all playing in concordance..... so if we 3 can come to an agreement, that would help my dream come true.

It's unfortunate then that I think we're playing with Yosscum. (Elli here).

[Drippereth]

CSL is for the vig.

I wouldn't mind whacking Clergyhoop. But Nikanor is still scum for his un-town reaction to "being lynched." This is completely independent from theory discussions.

Besides, when you have a player like me screaming his/her head off that you should bloody claim already, that's a sign that would should bloody claim already, vanilla or not, regardless of some theory discussed by an handful of people some time ago.

Is it the whole not claiming thing? I think that's just a personal choice thing. If your role is about to be flipped anyway, why do you need to say? It's the same principal of ruining the ending of a game in lylo, by saying what you were before the mod gets in.

Here's a recent thread I stumbled upon that might be illuminating for those skeptical about Nikanor's reaction to his 'being lynched'.

unvote, vote Nikanor

random hammer mode activate

I want to tear my hair out.

Imagine that you're a town role, kay? You come back to the thread as Nikanor and see that you got "hammered". What would your reaction be?

[Drippereth]

unvote, vote Nikanor

random hammer mode activate

I dunno what DGB thinks, but Para = Town.