Newbie #915 (Game Over!)

[iamausername]

-=Vote Count #9=-

Not Voting (7) - AlmasterGM, Deer, DiamondCrash, Dreadknight, horrordude0215, RedFox, Trumpet of Doom

4 to lynch.

-=AlmasterGM has been prodded=-

[AlmasterGM]

@all; Do you think ToD hammered too late? Do you blame him? Would you have done the same if push came to shove?

Um, too late? If anything, he hammered too early. That move was a terribad IC play. His chart is just an excuse to drop the nuke. It also makes no sense logistically. ToD drops the hammer, we go into night phase, day 2 pops up, and then he's like "lol V/LA for 10 days." Why not just wait until the start of your V/LA to hammer so you go be away during the nighttime? Oh wait, I know: You wanted to converse with your scumbuddy at night.

This tell seems minor. It's not. It is a big deal. It is a HUGE oversight as IC to make this move as town.

After a skim of the thread, I found only one post from TeW detailing who he explicitly thought was suspicious; post 92, page 4. That included Thelas, and myself, who he FoSed, before voting Thelas. It seems obvious enough that he was also suspicious of Zodiark closer to the end of the day.

Beautiful pre-emptive defense to match with TOD's theory there.

And ToD, I don't want to sound rude here, but generally it's not good for the IC to be gone for over a week during the middle of a game

Yeah, seriously, I agree with this. Maybe you should replace out. Or we could just lynch you.

Well, TeWuicah was voting horrordude. Whether or not that means anything is ridiculously WIFOM-filled, but it's something to consider.

The point of WIFOM is you don't consider it.

I'll take a closer look at him and his predecessor tomorrow, but for now, FoS: horrordude0215 as my strongest lead.

Why are you FOS'ing and not voting?

Recommendation: Those who intend to reread (including me, once I get the time) should probably start by seeing who TW was suspicious of towards the end of the day, as it's fairly likely that he was onto at least one of the scum.

I don't like that sitewide meta is that speculation for why people got killed is scummy/useless. Kills happen on the players they do for a reason, and since I'm not sure what TW did that would have made him particularly obvtown, he was probably killed for suspecting one of the scum. Working backwards through his posts in isolation, I see suspicion of:

Seriously, you have got to be friggin kidding me. We should absolutely positively not be doing this for a couple of reasons.

First, there is no way of deliniating which of his suspects, if any, are scum. TeWuicah suspected 6 people. That's half the game. You can't go by top suspects, because he picked Zodiark and was wrong, so there is no way to tell at all.

Second, it's an arbitrary method of zeroing on certain candidates. Some players are subject to additional scruitiny for no reason at all. This creates the ruse that some sort of progress is being made when in reality nothing has happened except we are ignoring half the player pool.

Third, the scum could have just as easily said, "Hey, maybe they'll check the NK's suspect list, let's kill someone who didn't suspect either of us to throw the town off track."

Fourth, TeWuicah was as obvtown as it gets. If the NK had been someone who had taken a ton of heat the day before, then maybe your theory would make sense because scum don't normally kill townies who are next in line for lynch. This, however, is not the case. TeWuicah was a perfectly normal, obvtown NK. There is no reason at all to suggest we should be going on this sideshow manhunt of yours.

I honestly can't believe you are spewing this garbage.

Vote: TrumpetofDoom

[DiamondCrash]

After a skim of the thread, I found only one post from TeW detailing who he explicitly thought was suspicious; post 92, page 4. That included Thelas, and myself, who he FoSed, before voting Thelas. It seems obvious enough that he was also suspicious of Zodiark closer to the end of the day.

Beautiful pre-emptive defense to match with TOD's theory there.

Is that a compliment? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

And ToD, I don't want to sound rude here, but generally it's not good for the IC to be gone for over a week during the middle of a game

Yeah, seriously, I agree with this. Maybe you should replace out. Or we could just lynch you.

Holy shwhat?! You argue ToD hammered too early; yet here you are, threatening to lynch?

Third, the scum could have just as easily said, "Hey, maybe they'll check the NK's suspect list, let's kill someone who didn't suspect either of us to throw the town off track."

So, cross out all the people that he suspected, then the ones that are left are scum. would that be true according to your logic?

@AlG; Would you have hammered Zodiark at that time? Later? Why/why not?

[horrordude0215]

Third, the scum could have just as easily said, "Hey, maybe they'll check the NK's suspect list, let's kill someone who didn't suspect either of us to throw the town off track."

So, cross out all the people that he suspected, then the ones that are left are scum. would that be true according to your logic?

That wasn't the point... it was true that TeW was probably the most pro-town player we had, and for ToD to be suggesting something so filled with WIFOM is ridiculous. I gave him the benefit of the doubt in Day 1, but with him doing something like this, I don't think so any more.

Vote: Trumpet of Doom

[Trumpet of Doom]

@all; Do you think ToD hammered too late? Do you blame him? Would you have done the same if push came to shove?

Um, too late? If anything, he hammered too early. That move was a terribad IC play. His chart is just an excuse to drop the nuke.

Expecting anything resembling meaningful discussion when the lynch is a foregone conclusion is an exercise in futility. And letting a few days go by with zero useful discussion is a horrible idea.

It also makes no sense logistically. ToD drops the hammer, we go into night phase, day 2 pops up, and then he's like "lol V/LA for 10 days." Why not just wait until the start of your V/LA to hammer so you go be away during the nighttime? Oh wait, I know: You wanted to converse with your scumbuddy at night.

Your proposed alternative - hammer at deadline (that is, on Wednesday), thereby ensuring D2 doesn't start until tomorrow, after I've already left on V/LA - is even worse logistically. Nice try, but no.

After a skim of the thread, I found only one post from TeW detailing who he explicitly thought was suspicious; post 92, page 4. That included Thelas, and myself, who he FoSed, before voting Thelas. It seems obvious enough that he was also suspicious of Zodiark closer to the end of the day.

Beautiful pre-emptive defense to match with TOD's theory there.

Do elaborate. I'm not sure what you're saying here.

And ToD, I don't want to sound rude here, but generally it's not good for the IC to be gone for over a week during the middle of a game

Yeah, seriously, I agree with this. Maybe you should replace out. Or we could just lynch you.

If the mod wants to replace me, he can, Mr. "you hammered too early, we should lynch you quickly."

I'll take a closer look at him and his predecessor tomorrow

, but for now, FoS: horrordude0215 as my strongest lead.

Why are you FOS'ing and not voting?

Read the bolded.

First, there is no way of deliniating which of his suspects, if any, are scum. TeWuicah suspected 6 people. That's half the game. You can't go by top suspects, because he picked Zodiark and was wrong, so there is no way to tell at all.

Sure there is: You give the suspicions expressed nearer to deadline more weight, since the NK would have been more likely to vote those players at the start of the day.

And I'm not at all seeing how Zodiark was TW's "top suspect," given that 177 pretty definitely says horrordude was.

Third, the scum could have just as easily said, "Hey, maybe they'll check the NK's suspect list, let's kill someone who didn't suspect either of us to throw the town off track."

IME, that's not how newbie scum think (hell, a lot of experienced scum don't think like that). You've completed enough games here that you ought to know that.

Fourth, TeWuicah was as obvtown as it gets. If the NK had been someone who had taken a ton of heat the day before, then maybe your theory would make sense because scum don't normally kill townies who are next in line for lynch. This, however, is not the case. TeWuicah was a perfectly normal, obvtown NK.

As I said, I don't see it. If you'd be so kind as to point it out for me, I'm all ears (well, once I get back and if I'm still in the game, but you get the picture).

-----------------------

Damn. Packing has left me with not enough time to read Thelas and horrordude sufficiently.

Vote: AlmasterGM

for the craptastic 201, which looks to me like an SE trying to get rid of the only other experienced player in the game, whom he sees as a threat; I'm still keeping an FoS on horrordude.

[horrordude0215]

ToD, care to explain why you suggested that we look at TeW's suspects in order to find the next lynch when you know that's so WIFOM filled it's not even funny?

[RedFox]

Recommendation: Those who intend to reread (including me, once I get the time) should probably start by seeing who TW was suspicious of towards the end of the day, as it's fairly likely that he was onto at least one of the scum.

Oh,right...
Oh, look!
All the persons who voted in Horrordude...died!! What this mean? It's just coincidence.
For me, who TW was suspecting is useless.

I don't have a better suspect. So my vote is staying where it is, for now.

He stay his vote untill be killed and and i don't see good evidences to suspect of Horror.
It's useless. -_-

[horrordude0215]

Recommendation: Those who intend to reread (including me, once I get the time) should probably start by seeing who TW was suspicious of towards the end of the day, as it's fairly likely that he was onto at least one of the scum.

Oh,right...
Oh, look!
All the persons who voted in Horrordude...died!! What this mean? It's just coincidence.

This confuses me... are you suspecting me or not? If so, please give a case for it that's not WIFOM filled

[Deer]

Eesh. I find ToD's post up there to be very OMGUS-based. But then again, I find bits and pieces of Almaster's argument to be somewhat flawed.

First, there is no way of deliniating which of his suspects, if any, are scum. TeWuicah suspected 6 people. That's half the game. You can't go by top suspects, because he picked Zodiark and was wrong, so there is no way to tell at all.

This, for example. He did obviously suspect horrordude/Thelas - the only thing he mentioned about Zodiark was him saying

If he fails to defend himself and put something out there I could get behind a Zodiark lynch.

And:

Zodiark13: He attracted a lot of attention with his "serious" FoS, and whether he intended it or not, has given town a lot of good information. I've been trying to find a hidden agenda in his posts, but so far, his posts seem to show a town mindset. He could honestly flip either way, but I'm leaning towards town at the moment.

So, I'm not really sure where you got that from. But the thing is, I don't find your post necessarily scummy - just flawed in its logic. So, ToD, is that 201 post the only reason you're suspecting Almaster right now? Anything else he's done that you don't like?

And @Redfox...dude, you gotta start posting some stuff with content.

[horrordude0215]

And @Redfox...dude, you gotta start posting some stuff with content.

Agreed... he is easily the second scummiest person in the game, IMO. And I like how ToD hasn't said even mentioned him in any of his posts. (Well, once, but it was answering a question about the game mechanics) (Isn't there a term for this? I can't seem to find it in the wiki)

I think that a ToD lynch is best for today and if he flips scum, Redfox is probably the scumbuddy

Opinions on this?

[iamausername]

-=Dreadknight has been prodded=-

[DiamondCrash]

Agreed, horror, but this seems very "rush-y".

What would you think if he flipped town? Would you still suspect RF? Or someone else entirely?

[RedFox]

This confuses me... are you suspecting me or not? If so, please give a case for it that's not WIFOM filled

No...i just say: "See who TW was suspecting is useless" because that: "I don't have better suspect" and he was supecting of you only because of a mistake of Thelas. -_-

I think that a ToD lynch is best for today

Yeah,yeah...You will really lynch ToD because he is a bad IC?

[horrordude0215]

Agreed, horror, but this seems very "rush-y".

What would you think if he flipped town? Would you still suspect RF? Or someone else entirely?

It may seem rushy, yes, but at the same time, it's getting discussion going. This is a very slow-moving game right now, and I'm trying to boost it a little.

If he flipped town (which I find a bit unlikely at this point), I still would suspect RF... he does nothing but active lurking and has yet to provide any real content.

Yeah,yeah...You will really lynch ToD because he is a bad IC?

That's not why I want to lynch him... I want to lynch him because he stands out in my mind as the scummiest person here.

[DiamondCrash]

If he flipped town (which I find a bit unlikely at this point), I still would suspect RF... he does nothing but active lurking and has yet to provide any real content.

Well, then, who else eould you suspect?

[RedFox]

Yeah,yeah...You will really lynch ToD because he is a bad IC?

That's not why I want to lynch him... I want to lynch him because he stands out in my mind as the scummiest person here.

So i go make the same question to AlMaster.

"You will really lynch ToD because he is a bad IC?" :\

[horrordude0215]

If he flipped town (which I find a bit unlikely at this point), I still would suspect RF... he does nothing but active lurking and has yet to provide any real content.

Well, then, who else eould you suspect?

I'm not sure... I'd have to look at some ISO posts first

[Dreadknight]

Sorry for the absence everyone. I don't really have the time to say much right now, but I have read everything, and as I was going to say during my post, it seems other people suspect ToD as well.

I will go into detail asap.

[AlmasterGM]

Is that a compliment? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Why are you defending yourself against the suspicion list of a dead person when nobody is calling you out on it?

@AlG; Would you have hammered Zodiark at that time? Later? Why/why not?

If I were ToD and I was town, I absolutely would have waited to hammer.

Expecting anything resembling meaningful discussion when the lynch is a foregone conclusion is an exercise in futility. And letting a few days go by with zero useful discussion is a horrible idea.

You're the IC. Get the game into gear. Ask some questions. I've seen plenty of games were a player gets down to L-1, thing seem to be set in place, and then the wagon reverses and takes an entirely new direction. Your "meh" attitude towards activity can only be explained by three possibilites - 1) Bad town play, 2) Fear of appearing hypocritical and coming under fire, or 3) Fear of the wagon shifting away from a townie onto scum. I think the first option is unlikely to be true and that the second two (which are) are scumtells.

Your proposed alternative - hammer at deadline (that is, on Wednesday), thereby ensuring D2 doesn't start until tomorrow, after I've already left on V/LA - is even worse logistically. Nice try, but no.

Um, what exactly have you contributed today? Other than responding to my attacks, all you did was tell some people to go engage in WIFOM. I’d rather you minimize your day V/LA and show up later with some thoughtful analysis than sit around during the night, pop in to steer the town in the wrong direction, and then go V/LA for a huge chunk of day.

Read the bolded.

Uh, how does that explain not voting? You could always vote and unvote later if you change your mind. Why is a FOS

Sure there is: You give the suspicions expressed nearer to deadline more weight, since the NK would have been more likely to vote those players at the start of the day.

God, the WIFOM … my head … it is spinning.

And I'm not at all seeing how Zodiark was TW's "top suspect," given that 177 pretty definitely says horrordude was.

Yeah, you’re right, that was my misread. He still suspected half the field.

Damn. Packing has left me with not enough time to read Thelas and horrordude sufficiently. Vote: AlmasterGM for the craptastic 201, which looks to me like an SE trying to get rid of the only other experienced player in the game, whom he sees as a threat; I'm still keeping an FoS on horrordude.

Mmmmm, I love the smell of OMGUS. So delicious. If I were scum, what would my motiviation for getting rid of you be? You don't suspect me. you are wandering into the murky waters of WIFOM, and are about to be V/LA for 10 days. You're just the kind of townie I'd want sitting around. Moreover, if I were scum and wanted to get rid of experienced players, why wouldn't I have just NK'd you?

You make no sense.

Even if I'm wrong about EVERYTHING in my 201, your vote on me is reason alone to lynch you. It's absolutely ridiculous.

[Deer]

Mmmmm, I love the smell of OMGUS. So delicious. If I were scum, what would my motiviation for getting rid of you be? You don't suspect me. you are wandering into the murky waters of WIFOM, and are about to be V/LA for 10 days. You're just the kind of townie I'd want sitting around. Moreover, if I were scum and wanted to get rid of experienced players, why wouldn't I have just NK'd you?

You make no sense. Even if I'm wrong about EVERYTHING in my 201, your vote on me is reason
alone to lynch you. It's absolutely ridiculous.

This is heavy WIFOM, which you call out ToD for quite frequently. Seems rather hypocritical if you ask me.

If I were ToD and I was town, I absolutely would have waited to hammer.

I like the Zodiark wagon and I like my vote.

See, the thing is, each vote counts equally. Just because the hammer is "the hammer" doesn't make it any different from your vote or my vote on that wagon. While the vote itself wasn't scummy (Z13 was a scummy dude) , the fact that you're calling ToD out for hammering too soon is again, hypocritical. You could have unvoted if you felt we needed more discussion - when you place a vote down, normally, you do it because you believe that person should be lynched. I'm sure if Z13 had flipped scum, you would have no problem with ToD right now. So why get mad at him for hammering too soon?

[AlmasterGM]

This is heavy WIFOM, which you call out ToD for quite frequently. Seems rather hypocritical if you ask me.

Not at all, my Deer. Let's go through each of my arguments point by point.

"What would my motivation be?" - This is a perfectly legitimate question. Scum have motivations for the behavior - otherwise, scum would just act like townies and there would be no way to tell them apart. Moreover, the likelyhood of scum pulling an ballsy play (e.g., doing something that goes against their motivation) is significantly less than them simply following SOP. So, even though it wouldn't exonerate them, it definitely equals more town points.

"You don't suspect me. you are wandering into the murky waters of WIFOM, and are about to be V/LA for 10 days. You're just the kind of townie I'd want sitting around." - First, my contentions are no more WIFOM than ToD's argument. I'm just giving you layers of defense - you either accept that both are WIFOM (while noting that ToD started it) and discard both sides' arguments (fine with me, as I was defending myself), or you ignore the WIFOM and look at the actual arguments (which I'm definitely winning). Second, these aren't even WIFOM - they are legitimate defenses to an attack. If ToD says "I want to get rid of him because he's good / the IC" and I say "uh, you aren't good, you suck, and you're going away, thus negating your IC'ness" that's not WIFOM, it's me disproving his theory.

"Moreover, if I were scum and wanted to get rid of experienced players, why wouldn't I have just NK'd you?" - See above. It's not WIFOM because it's a defensive argument responding to a specific piece of offense. I'm not saying "Because I didn't kill ToD, I'm town," I'm saying, "My motive can't be 'get rid of experienced players' because if I wanted to do that I would have just NK'd you."

See, the thing is, each vote counts equally. Just because the hammer is "the hammer" doesn't make it any different from your vote or my vote on that wagon. While the vote itself wasn't scummy (Z13 was a scummy dude) , the fact that you're calling ToD out for hammering too soon is again, hypocritical. You could have unvoted if you felt we needed more discussion - when you place a vote down, normally, you do it because you believe that person should be lynched. I'm sure if Z13 had flipped scum, you would have no problem with ToD right now. So why get mad at him for hammering too soon?

I was V/LA, so that wasn't possible. If ToD had said, "Hey guys, I'm gonna hammer today, any objections?" and I had been around, I absolutely would have said "wait." There is an implicit understanding that you can put down votes whilst still wanting time for discussion. Otherwise, quicklynches and fastwagons would all be K and town would probably win never.

P.S. Remember that ToD is the IC, not some newb. This makes his behavior (such as initiating WIFOM) especially bad.

[horrordude0215]

I will go into detail asap.

When will we get this detail?

[AlmasterGM]

DiamondCrash, who do you think the two scum are?

[DiamondCrash]

ToD is one. As for the other, I'm not entirely sure. RedFox is scummy, yes, but I'm not sure whether it's just really bad town play, or actual scum behaviour. I'd get behind lynches on either one.

Everyone else seems quite town. In the event of a town flip if ToD is lynched, I would think that you, AGM, are scum. Your attack on him, while logically correct, seemed agressive, so you would be my no. 1 suspect in that event. As a percentage, AGM, how certain are you of ToD's scumminess?

Also, ToD, being the experienced one, why is WIFOM bad?

[horrordude0215]

I don't see AGM as scum if ToD flips town... he was agressive in his attack on ToD, as he should be. Would you want him to give a passive attack as apposed to an agressive one?

I wouldn't see Alamaster as scum just because he pushed for a ToD lynch... I'm pushing for one as well, so would that make me scum?