Mini 934 - Troubles at Smiths&Catharts (Game Over!)

[Sotty7]

Welcome to the madhouse CSL and Locke.

Ray really bothers me. I've deliberately avoided my own meta as town once but not in a way that was so wilfully anti-town. The only time I've really felt like he was genuinely interested in this game was in his reaction to Pomegranate's confirm vote. That actually gives me a town read, which brings me on to Pome.

Why does his reaction to Pom give you a townie feel? That doesn't make much sense to me seeing as both scum and town have a built in self preservation kick, it's a null tell at best.

I agree something is off about Pom, I asked her for a scum list a forever ago and she still hasn't posted it. If she wants to say that he confirm vote post is her scum list then I am even less impressed considering a bulk of that post talks about lurkers (Ray, IJL and TCC) I want a

real

scum list. I want some discussion about active posters (Thor, myself, copper)

I don't really like this TCC wagon. Her posts feel very newbie like, the only thing that raises my heckles are the smiles. I would like her to come back and add to the thread answering the pressure against her, but I won't be voting her any time soon baring something intense happening.

Ray

– Why are you choosing to break meta in this game?

[Copper]

Cheshire Cat is at L-2. While I can't find any good reason not to vote Cheshire and a patchwork town like this demands we take action sooner rather than later, it's still a little unnerving to see this speed.

Locke, CSL: Cheshire has provided next to nothing in terms of real votes, analysis, and the like, but the same can be said about half the player list. I'm interested to hear why you two chose that particular lurker and not the others.

The interactions between Ythan (now Locke), Rayfrost, and Nobody Special (now kthnxbye) need more discussion within the hydra before we can incorporate them in our vote. I think it's a fairly uncontroversial position that Ythan and Nobody Special/kthnkxbye cannot be scumbuddies, as planning a move like that would have been incredibly unethical. The pairing of Rayfrost and Ythan is more interesting. I'll leave the vote on Ray for now while we wait for the thread to start up again but after the outburst between him and Ythan I'm not as sure as I was about Rayfrost being scum.

[Locke Lamora]

Sotty: I agree that self-preservation is no better than a null tell in itself. Ray's reaction just read to me like someone who had spotted scum trying to boost existing suspicion on him, not like scum reacting defensively to an accusation. People have been after Ray most of the game for his 'meta change'. For him to react in the way he did against Pome after apparently not really being bothered all game seems more like a genuine townie reaction, not a manufactured scum reaction.

Copper: TCC's posts when she has bothered to contribute don't have any evident interest in scumhunting. The Zorblag vote is basically made just because you told everyone to make a vote. She doesn't have any particular questions for Zorblag (or Sajin, who she also calls out), it's just a 'please post some content' post. She's basically coupling her not scumhunting with being friendly to everyone, to the extent where even her accusations aren't remotely threatening. Other players who have contributed little seem more like they genuinely don't have the time or aren't keeping up interest (or in Ray's case, are apparently deliberately trying to annoy everyone).

[Pomegranate]

I'd say that my top suspect is RayFrost, who wins in a landslide victory. Recently he started harking on Ythan for Fluffy posting. I mean, seriously, him being the one talking? The hypocrisy is killing me. And that's all he doing- like linking to useless posts of Ythan. Like, the case feels really half-hearted.

The type of way ScumRF makes cases.

ScumRF is a total meta reference. Her whole read relies on what she knows of RF as scum. Now, I don't have a problem with that in itself. It's perfectly understandable for her to suspect RF because his play matches scum meta that she's seen first-hand on more than one occasion. What I don't like is that she tries to defend herself from Ray's counter by claiming that meta isn't the core of her case when she has repeatedly referenced previous games in her attacks on him. I feel like she's almost surprised that Ray has now responded with proper content and is thinking that the easy lynch of anti-town Ray might not be so easy after all. I think town-Pome with a genuine meta-based scum read of Ray would be more confident in their opinion.

But look at the post you quoted. Even following that posts, what RF was (and is) doing is scummy. Say that last senyence wasn't there. Would the post not make sense, or be invalid for any reason. I mention briefly that yes, ScumRF does play this way, but out of the 7 (albeit short) sentences in that, seven words were devoted to RF's meta. Now, if my reasons were based on meta, wouldn't the majority of the post have focused on it?

--

Where I came from, smilies were a scumtell believe it or not.

Vote: TheCheshireCat

CSL, why can't you finish reading the thread, then vote, and explain your logic?

--

I agree something is off about Pom, I asked her for a scum list a forever ago and she still hasn't posted it. If she wants to say that he confirm vote post is her scum list then I am even less impressed considering a bulk of that post talks about lurkers (Ray, IJL and TCC) I want a

real

scum list. I want some discussion about active posters (Thor, myself, copper)

I was asked by other players to only give my scumreads in my scumleast, and not my townreads. Post 474.

--

[...] to the extent where even her accusations aren't remotely threatening.

I guess that my tone doesn't translate well onto the internet. (The actual tone of my voice should indicate that I'm planning to fly to Japan, and stalk and murder RF. I guess I just didn;'t know how to convey that.)

[Thor665]

Cheshire Cat is at L-2. While I can't find any good reason not to vote Cheshire and a patchwork town like this demands we take action sooner rather than later, it's still a little unnerving to see this speed.

What speed?

The cat was placed at L-4 during a period where it appeared we were only a few days out of deadline (to be frank, I was almost getting worried about our chances to even manage a lynch). Now we have, for the first time, a player at L-2 with us about a week from deadline. I don't see the blinding speed nor am I upset to get someone suspicious looking with some legitimate pressure on them.

What about the situation do you see as being too fast?

[Locke Lamora]

Pome: you misread the part about not being threatening. That was about TCC. As for the rest, my point was that your experience of Ray's play as scum comes up multiple times throughout your posts. As I said before, there's nothing wrong with the principle of using that meta on Ray; what bothers me is that you didn't disagree with anything Ray said about your attack being invalid - instead you claimed that your attack was based on alternative points to those he criticised.

So when I see Ray finally explain the situation in those two games after the multiple occasions you stated them in an attack against him, I'd expect you to justify your use of that meta. The fact that you didn't and fell back on alternative reasoning indicates to me that Ray is entirely justified in his criticism and that you were repeatedly using meta that you yourself knew (or at least realised very fast) was actually poorly founded. From my perspective, Ray suddenly stops being an easy target, defends himself and you've got nothing to say other than 'that's not what the real point of my attack is'. I think if a townie is making an attack in which meta is even a 'pillar', they would defend their use of that meta, not back down instantly and point to other reasons.

[Sotty7]

Sotty: I agree that self-preservation is no better than a null tell in itself. Ray's reaction just read to me like someone who had spotted scum trying to boost existing suspicion on him, not like scum reacting defensively to an accusation. People have been after Ray most of the game for his 'meta change'. For him to react in the way he did against Pome after apparently not really being bothered all game seems more like a genuine townie reaction, not a manufactured scum reaction.

Eehhh that's a reach I think, but okay.

I agree something is off about Pom, I asked her for a scum list a forever ago and she still hasn't posted it. If she wants to say that he confirm vote post is her scum list then I am even less impressed considering a bulk of that post talks about lurkers (Ray, IJL and TCC) I want a

real

scum list. I want some discussion about active posters (Thor, myself, copper)

I was asked by other players to only give my scumreads in my scumleast, and not my townreads. Post 474.

So only the lurkers are scummy to you and you have nothing to say about anyone else?

Unvote, Vote: Ray

I find myself agreeing with Locke more than disagreeing with him so it's time to move my vote back to my number one suspect. The only meaningful thin he has done is defend himself to Pom, where is the scum hunting? I'm not feeling anything remotely town driven from him.

[TheCheshireCat]

Okay im back i have had i lot to do i am gonna go over what i missed and i have post up very soon!!!

[TheCheshireCat]

I do not approve of this plan since I have yet to see the game when scum post up a comment along the lines of "Hai guyz, I am scummorz and shall night kill ya soon!"

That is not slipping up, slipping up means that they would say something that didnt mean too. And your right its not a very good tactic for hunting scum, why would i want to tell scum my actual stragedy for hunting them? That way scum knows my plan to find them and they can avoid it and find a way around it.

No you and Ches. Ches's case. She picks out ZORBLAG to put her vote on of all people, based on not much at all.

I dont really have a strong case on anyone, i just noticed that both cyberbob and Zorblag were a little lurky.

To put it plainly.

I out NS on lurking.
He flips his shit and doesn't offer any explanation.
He replaces out.

maybe he just doesn't like you... really doesn't like you...

@TheCheshireCat - I personally am interested by the idea of playing a game with Zorblag. Also, your vote on him is based on his lurking (nothing new there I'm afraid) and there are at least two other lurkers (Ray and NS) who have more traction then your Zorblag wagon. Either start selling the living bejeezus on this wagon or kindly move your vote somewhere useful (while you consider this please recall that Ythan is scum)

I see where your coming from, i will ISO some ppl and see who is the most scummy. (and i totally forgot Ythan was scum, thanks for reminding )

@TheCheshireCat, Post 277 was made directly after the whole ScramblesTheDeathDealer not voting for Nobody Special despite him having said Nobody Special was likely to be scum whether RayFrost flipped town or scum discussion. You no seem to have mentioned that at all despite it being one of the most interesting things that Troll has seen happen all game. That be particularly fascinating given that ScramblesTheDeathDealer was probably the player you had talked about and responded to the most previous to that. Do you have an opinion about what him did there one way or the other?

Okay honestly, i have a REALLY hard time understanding you if i understand your question, the reason i voted for you and none of the other 'better canidates' is that i was in a hurry and i needed to post, and i thought i would introduce another player into the possible sccum list.

sry guys!!! I'm gonna be

V/LA

until tomorrow afternoon!

This is the best defense to a lurking/not contributing accusation I have ever seen. Clearly all my suspicion in this regard has been blown away in a blast of townishness.

I assume you are being sarcastic, and the reason i posted this is becasue i hadn't been able to post in the days previous to this one.

Okay im sry but what does TL;DR mean? I couldn't find it in the wiki.

Thats all i have for now... i will come back later and post some more.

[Zorblag]

Troll gives warm welcome to CSL and Locke Lamora.

Troll be a bit preoccupied with another game just now so Troll will be getting to this one in a more reasonable way in a bit. For now Troll will share a few quick thoughts.

Copper (and Troll apologizes for saying Cooper earlier) be right that it be a bit surprising how quickly TheCheshireCat has gotten to L-2. When Troll was deciding how to vote between TheCheshireCat, Ythan and ScramblesTheDeathDealer Troll spent a while thinking which of the three to go with. That time spent no particularly showed up as the one vote in Troll's post and in fact Troll deleted a sentence or two giving the reasons Troll eventually decided on on the grounds that Troll wanted to see who would ask Troll for them (no one apparently. What be curious here though be how quickly the two new replacement seem to have come to the same conclusions (and them both be basing it on actions that happened that Troll was looking at so far as Troll can tell.)

Troll was pretty ready to switch over to a Ythan vote before the replacement issue came up. Despite what him had to say about it him was at least as responsible as anyone else for the game getting mired in the sort of nonsense that it was. Further, him recognized that it was happening and was doing nothing to prevent it; the onus for having a productive game seemed to be on the shoulders of others. That no be how town should approach the situation. Add in the hypocrisy that Troll saw and there wasn't much reason not to eliminate Ythan as someone who had at least as good a chance as many to be scum and was more likely to hurt the town with his presence than most even if him was town. Now that Locke Lamora be in the game in his stead Troll be willing to give him some rope to see what him does with it.

@TheCheshireCat, why didn't you have anything to say about ScramblesTheDeathDealer's stance on Nobody Special? You had plenty to say about him earlier and that was certainly something noteworthy in the game.

Troll knows that some have trouble understanding what Troll says at times but your interpretation of Troll's question be pretty interesting. Troll no made any mention of better candidates or even your vote at all for that matter. Troll had explicitly said that Troll was a pretty reasonable person to vote for at that point in the game. Why did you think Troll was questioning your reasons for that?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Oh, and TL;DR means Too Long; Didn't Read. When people put it at the end of their posts it be a way of summarizing what they said without all the details them used to make their case (or the tangents if them got sidetracked.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Kthxbye]

Unvote, Vote: TCC

This is mainly due to p533 and my annoyance that D1 has still provided no more information than speculation of posts. I think we need a flip.

TCC defends NS/me to someone who is no longer in this game for no discernible reason I can see except to round-a-bout buddy up to me.

Secondly, she buddies up to Thor, agrees she should find who is the most scummy (ignoring Thor's request to explain the Zorblag vote) yet doesn't unvote.

Thirdly, she admits to just putting her vote out there to add someone to the scum candidates list...what? How bout a hunt for scum, not trying to put someone on the radar for lurking (guess we're all scum this game) and ignoring the rest of the lurkers. Perhaps the rest of the lurkers are scum buddies?

Fourthly, the whole post is pointless (addressing a player no longer playing) or procrastination (I'll ISO and do other townie things soon guys...I promise).

[RayFrost]

Ray

– Why are you choosing to break meta in this game?

Because I need to. Trust me, I have the town's best interests at heart.

By the by, if you find yourself agreeing with locke on the majority of his points and one of his points is that he thinks I'm town for [insert stuff here], would your vote state that it is one of the (few) points of his that you disagree with?

And I didn't come online at all yesterday, Japan time, which would explain the absence.

[RayFrost]

Unvote, Vote: TCC

my annoyance that D1 has still provided no more information than speculation of posts. I think we need a flip.

Your points are valid, but this is alerting my scumdar.

I feel that having this in your post is pointless and isn't even true.

It's a misrepresentation of the scumhunting that has happened through the game as well as the information that can be gathered.

In addition, if everybody votes TCC because 'we need a flip,' then there will be little information gotten from the flip, which makes getting a flip not very useful. In addition, how would a flip be helpful if there is little information on D1? Why aren't you attempting to spring more information in D1 rather than turning this to night?

This part of your post gives it a more opportunistic and piggy backish feel than I'd get otherwise.

FoS: kthx

[Thor665]

THE CHESHIRE CAT IS AT L-1

This information brought to you by the committee of 'no excuses for "accidental" hammers.'

why would i want to tell scum my actual

stragedy

for hunting them?

(em) Your Freudian slip is correct - your scumhunting strategy is tragic.

I dont really have a strong case on anyone, i just noticed that both cyberbob and Zorblag were a little lurky.

Do you still find Zorblag lurky?
How do you reconcile your vote for lurky behavior considering your play...do you find your own play lurky?

I see where your coming from, i will ISO some ppl and see who is the most scummy.

Don't expect me to hold my breath on this.

This is mainly due to p533 and my annoyance that D1 has still provided no more information than speculation of posts. I think we need a flip.

Some flips are great for getting information, but not all flips are made equal.

What do you see as the information we will glean about other players from a Cheshire Cat flip? I see *maybe* a bit of energy towards the Scrambles slot but otherwise consider the flip of Cheshire as being fairly useless in an information gathering way.

[Pomegranate]

I will say that I'm willing to hammer TCC. The content hasn't improved.

[RayFrost]

THE CHESHIRE CAT IS AT L-1

This information brought to you by the committee of 'no excuses for "accidental" hammers.'

<3 thank you for joining the

cult

committee.

[Copper]

I'm not always for lynching whoever would give us the most information, seeing as an effective scum ploy is to make as few connections as possible and I don't want to stay my hand from lynching scum. But in this case, it's a valid point. Pomegrante says that she's willing to lynch TCC because her content hasn't improved, but what kind of reason is that? What possible negative repercussions could come from letting TCC talk a few more days?

I'm going to echo Rayfrost's 538 and say that I really don't like kthnx's hop on to TCC. Has all of your Ythan suspicion disappeared with his replacement? Any reason you decided not to label your vote as the penultimate one?

The gameflow is increasingly seeming to suggest that TCC is a townie the scum are trying to burn for her lack of content. If we look among Locke, CSL, and kthnxbye, I think there will be at least one and very possibly two scum. Before I vote for any of them, though, I'd like to hear each of their thoughts on my idea and whether or not they think their co-wagoners (as before, only counting the other two in Locke, CSL, and kthxbye) could be scum.

And I was reminded while looking at TCC's wagon that we haven't seen JL in some time.

Mod: please prod InquisitorJL

.

[Kthxbye]

To be honest, I think TCC is most likely to flip scum. I'll be honest here and humbly say that Ythan got to me and annoyed the bejesus outa me. It was part of my reason for voting him. I think Zorg said it best somewhere about how Ythan had just as good a chance at flipping scum as the other top suspects (due to scummy behavior) but even if he didn't, he would have been the best option if it were to turn into a mislynch as he wasn't helping town (or this game) in any way. I'm also willing to give LL a chance now due to my reasons for voting TCC.

Copper: think the above says my feelings on Ythan/LL and as for CSL, well, I didn't have a read on Sajin, CSL has posted once to include a vote without real reason, and to be honest, until CSL explains the vote or fails to do so, I can't have much a read on him.

I WOULD HOWEVER SUGGEST THERE BE NO HAMMER TILL CSL GETS A CHANCE TO FINISH THE FINAL 3 PAGES AND EXPLAIN IN FURTHER DETAIL THE REASON FOR THE VOTE.

RF: I'll stand by my annoyance at no flip yet till you lynch me. A 542 post day one is a tad bit ridiculous and isn't helping us. We can go round and round all day long about how this is scummy and that is scummy, but without flips, there are no actual facts so far. Good speculation and scumhunting, absolutely....but zero facts, period.

[RayFrost]

A 542 post day one is a tad bit ridiculous and isn't helping us. We can go round and round all day long about how this is scummy and that is scummy, but without flips, there are no actual facts so far. Good speculation and scumhunting, absolutely....but zero facts, period.

You are making a clear contradiction with what you have already said!

Unvote, Vote: TCC

my annoyance that D1 has still provided no more information than speculation of posts. I think we need a flip.

This clearly says 'no information other than speculation,' yet you are now saying that there has been good scumhunting!

In addition, your statement clearly posits that

good scumhunting

is not useful, which is an outright lie and shows that you are, in fact, just going with the tide!

Vote: Kthxbye

[Kthxbye]

please explain the difference between speculation and good scumhunting. just because its good scumhunting and logical questions and accusations (which is how I define scum hunting) doesn't make them any more factual. Hell, I even put "Good

SPECULATION

and scumhunting, absolutely....but zero facts, period." There is no contradiction.

the only info we are getting till a flip is speculation; whether it come from logical good scumhunting or Ythan posts. There are still no facts in this game.

[Thor665]

In addition, your statement clearly posits that

good scumhunting

is not useful, which is an outright lie and shows that you are, in fact, just going with the tide!

You didn't address this part of Ray's accusation, Kthxbye, and I think it's the most meaty...

...okay, it's the only meat there because other then that I agree with you and think Ray is grasping at some mighty thin straws with the contradiction accusation. Methinks he didn't recognize how to read the comma (a common mistake of child geniuses I am informed).

I WOULD HOWEVER SUGGEST THERE BE NO HAMMER TILL CSL GETS A CHANCE TO FINISH THE FINAL 3 PAGES AND EXPLAIN IN FURTHER DETAIL THE REASON FOR THE VOTE.

This bit of effeciency does echo to my mind Copper's question to you (which you did not answer in your reply to him) when he asked why you didn't clarify at the time you were putting Cheshire at L-1. If you weren't the type of player to post those warnings that's one thing, but by posting this plea/warning/demand I have to wonder why you didn't do so with the L-1 vote. Please enlighten me.

There are still no facts in this game.

And finally, just on a game theory standpoint. The discussion of Day 1 is not there to generate 'facts' that will be useful on the lynch Day 1. It is there to generate information that will make all subsequent lynch votes (hopefully) more and more accurate. If you don't buy into this then you might as well just roll dice to decide your votes and never say anything in any post other then what you're voting as the "facts" of a flip are useless with context to place them within.

[RayFrost]

please explain the difference between speculation and good scumhunting. just because its good scumhunting and logical questions and accusations (which is how I define scum hunting) doesn't make them any more factual. Hell, I even put "Good

SPECULATION

and scumhunting, absolutely....but zero facts, period." There is no contradiction.

the only info we are getting till a flip is speculation; whether it come from logical good scumhunting or Ythan posts. There are still no facts in this game.

Issue was the change in wording from this post:

Unvote, Vote: TCC

This is mainly due to p533 and my annoyance that

D1 has still provided no more information than speculation of posts

. I think we need a flip.

This doesn't include scumhunting because

scumhunting is the active searching for scum using evidence

whereas

speculation is searching for scum without the use of evidence

. Also note that

good scumhunting

leads to

scum lynches

, making your 'facts' worth less, as they only

come as a result of the scumhunting and speculation

. Your argument (at least, how I read it) stated that the speculation [and scumhunting] (using brackets to include what you added in your second post) of the entire day was pointless (as in

the stuff that makes us decide on who to lynch

was pointless, as in

the stuff that leads to the gathering of your hallowed 'facts'

was pointless)

Also, what 'facts' will there be in this game after a flip? The alignment of that single player? How is this 'fact' so utterly and overwhelmingly useful that we should just lynch somebody to get a flip?

Why are you focusing so much on

facts

?

You will not get

facts

that

prove

that somebody alive is scum from a flip (barring circumstances such as a watcher / cop result, etc, etc, etc).

[Locke Lamora]

I didn't think there was too much disturbing about the TCC wagon until that last vote and I agree with Ray about Kthxbye's 536. TCC's lack of contributions up to this point just makes the lack of content or any solid stances worse so as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing wrong with putting a vote on for the other stated reasons. However, adding that 'we need a flip' in makes it feel off, as though Kthxbye felt there was the need to justify the vote further. I don't think that justification was needed and I think it's scummy to offer it up there to bolster the case.

Unvote; Vote:Kthxbye

As for CSL's vote, there's not really a lot I can say about that. When CSL explains why the vote was made, I'll give you my thoughts on that.

[Sotty7]

By the by, if you find yourself agreeing with locke on the majority of his points and one of his points is that he thinks I'm town for [insert stuff here], would your vote state that it is one of the (few) points of his that you disagree with?

His calling you town is one of the things I disagree with, yes. His logic around that is poor in my opinion because what you did is nothing but a null tell. I have been questioning him on this.

I will say that I'm willing to hammer TCC. The content hasn't improved.

I find this hypocritical.

Ugh Locke's hop is weak. I'm not seeing the Ray contradiction, it just looks like a game of semantics to me. He also justifies his TCC vote only to abandon it. I don't like it.

I agree with Troll and Copper that TCC's wagon did build pretty fast considering how hard the other wagons in this town have been. That said post 533 by TCC was awful. She needs to follow up on her promise of delivering some actual content.