Open 212--Hard Boiled Mafia (Game Over)

[farside22]

MMM forgive me the mod had you voting BH still so I mised you voting for Nick.
As for my questions is I see a connection between two players I'm going to question what I see and prod about it.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 1.15:

NickF227 (5): Bio Hazard, evilsnail, mindgamer, Mysterious Mystery Man, semioldguy
Mindgamer (3): chauchaudotcom, Deer, ortolan
Mysterious Mystery Man (2): farside22, RayFrost
semioldguy (1): McGriddle

Not Voting (1): NickF227

Deadline in 5 days.

Also, I've gone through the thread and fixed all the previous vote counts. They should now all be accurate as of the time they were posted.

[farside22]

Alright we have 5 days to get things figured out here. I would like everyone to talk about their top two suspects and why they find the two scummy.

My top 2 hasn't changed since I said the following:

So on review of the game. MMM still gives me big time scum vibes. He seems to be implying that what bio is pushing makes him scummy and I don't see it.
ythan/nick give me big time scum vibes. Most of this from ythan and his OMGUS vote on semigold but nick's post that is a bw vote that offers next to nothing as reasoning is scummy.

Nick's unvote with pressure moves him up and I still feel a bussing move with nik/MMM.
MMM contradiction and reasoning for finding Nick's post not bad is horrible logic.

I would vote for either.

[chauchaudotcom]

MMM, you missed my questions:

Still, a few newbie games + a vengeful is a decent amount. So how familiar are you with OMGUS?

Also, how are those quotes of Ray showing that he is nervous? I don't see it.

Mindgamer's my top for reasons stated before.

But lMMM is closing that gap pretty quickly. Originally I thought MMM was just frustrated newbie town. But he's played in around 5 games or so and his constant use of not just OMGUS but very weakly supported cases concerns me (particularly his latest exchanges with Frost).

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

MMM, you missed my questions:

Still, a few newbie games + a vengeful is a decent amount. So how familiar are you with OMGUS?

Also, how are those quotes of Ray showing that he is nervous? I don't see it.

Mindgamer's my top for reasons stated before.

But lMMM is closing that gap pretty quickly. Originally I thought MMM was just frustrated newbie town. But he's played in around 5 games or so and his constant use of not just OMGUS but very weakly supported cases concerns me (particularly his latest exchanges with Frost).

How exactly am I using OMGUS? As for RayFrost, based on my previous experience with him, he seems very nervous, the slurred words are new, and he's acting out far more.

[Mindgamer]

I use Voice and Vote seperately. Using your Vote only to back up your Voice is a waste of your Vote.

What ever happened to actions speak louder than words?

Does that mean words are worthless? No.

----------

@ Farside22's Top2 question.

I still stand with my Ythan/NickF227 reasoning. I will do a reread of the game tomorrow to determine my second suspect. I had a really busy week so I don't have a good overview of this game at this moment. I apologize.

[chauchaudotcom]

Take 1

Vote: Bio Hazard for trying to build a case on me in RVS. Not the best evidence in the world, but sounds good for now.

Take 2

FoS: farside22

I find it interesting how you decide that I'm scum with Nick solely because I didn't say I found anything scummy about his posts when I voted for him.

Both conveniently happened after each person attacked/pressured you.

So how does 'slurred words' = nervousness? Mind you, only one of the posts you quoted has slurred words.

So you're claiming that based off meta, him acting out = scum right? Based off my experience w/ frost though, he plays a lot more serious as scum. So his so called 'acting out' would actually be a town tell. Furthermore, you still haven't explained exactly what in his posts indicate this so called nervousness he's supposedly hiding. Your case on Frost is weak and seems like scum trying to make a bogus case.

Unvote; Vote: MMM

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 1.16:

NickF227 (5): Bio Hazard, evilsnail, mindgamer, Mysterious Mystery Man, semioldguy
Mysterious Mystery Man (3): chauchaudotcom, farside22, RayFrost
Mindgamer (2): Deer, ortolan
semioldguy (1): McGriddle

Not Voting (1): NickF227

Deadline in 4 days.
Bio Hazard, Deer, evilsnail, and McGriddle have all been prodded.

[RayFrost]

The MMM wagon needs more support.

Join the wagon and get cookies (and a scum lynch!)

[McGriddle]

Sorry guys. This games seems rather unammusing to me ATM. Nothing is really sparking my "Fancy". I guess I will open some debate.

Unvote, Vote:MMM

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

This has got to be the worst wagon I've seen.

First off, CC.com is voting me because:

a) She thinks I've used OMGUS. As I've explained before, my vote on BH was partly to end RVS, and partly because I found his constant bandwagoning to be scummy. Concerning farside22, I don't understand her logic in declaring myself and Nick to be the scum. The fact that I didn't, and still don't find anything scummy in Nick's original vote isn't a scumtell. I voted Nick, right now I think he's got the highest chance to be scum. farside22 found me suspicious because my case on Nick didn't agree with hers. Now that's ridiculous. And, I think it's just a tad scummy. Enough to warrant an FoS.

b) I find RayFrost nervous. I thought this was clear to everyone, but to clarify even further: I SEE RAYFROST USING A DIFFERENT STYLE OF PLAY THAN I SAW LAST. I interpret the earlier parts I quoted as nervousness, you might interpret them differently. You might have a completely different meta read of RayFrost, my opinion isn't the only one. But from where I am, I see a very nervous player. Of course, it is very scummy to vote him solely based on a meta read of nervousness. Oh... wait a minute... I DIDN'T DO THAT! I never voted him, I never set up a bandwagon, I never did any "die scum" stuff, I simply noted the read in my summation. If it wasn't for RayFrost's enormous ego, nobody would've minded.

Secondly, farside22 case.

I still can't understand why you are voting me. I stated my case on Ythan/Nick, a player you also said you find scummy, and I voted for him. You find it suspicious that I didn't find Nick's vote scummy, even though I found just about everything else those players did scummy. You then declared a Nick/MMM scumteam. You say that I used 'horrible logic' in declaring Nick's vote unscummy. Words fail me. Exactly how was my logic unsound? Nick made an non-serious vote, claiming it was non-serious. That's not a scumtell in my book. Also under the list titled "NOT scumtells" is a player who votes for another player without finding EVERY action that player took scummy. From where I'm sitting, you seem really desperate to get a good bandwagon on me that just isn't there.

Third: RayFrost.

Starting with your original vote for me, this was your logic:

(I chose you over [insert majority of player list here] because of secret reasoning that is too awesome to disclose)

Pray tell, what is this reasoning? Is it that I lost my cool in one game, so you thought I'd lose my cool here? It can't be that, that would be using, in your words, a "half-baked meta".

I know MMM better than semi. More info this way.

Can't you just admit it was a pressure vote? You obviously voted me just for a reaction.

I sincerely believe that MMM is scum. Him acting placatingly to me while also saying I'm suspicious is scummy.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Would it have been less scummy if I OMGUSed you instead of BH? Did you feel left out? Exactly what did I do to make you "sincerely believe" I am scum?

Most of the rest of your case revolves around the fact that I read your play as nervous. OMGUS if I ever saw it.

Finally, the newest vote on the bandwagon, McGriddle. Looks like he's just voting me to get RayFrost's cookies.

All these cases are built on nothing. CC.com is saying I'm scum because I find the cases on me scummy. farside22 is voting me because I don't agree with her on the validity of another player's vote. RayFrost is voting me out of pressure and OMGUS. McGriddle is voting me to be one of those annoying players who bandwagons everybody. If you think that's enough, go ahead, lynch me. At least one scum got to be in on this, but it's a toss-up at this point.

[Mindgamer]

Still haven't read the game, aaaargh.

However, I have to say something at this point. I dislike the Mysterious Mystery Man wagon. It's just another wagon based on little tidbits without real scumtells.

McGriddle's 259 is a lot more interesting to me. Deadline is in four days and you vote Mysterious Mystery Man to make the game more exciting? Now THAT's a crappy vote. Explain how a 4th vote on the wagon will open some debate that isn't already taking place. Your vote stinks. I can totally see scum-McGriddle disappearing until deadline, a town-MMM being lynched and McGriddle getting away because his vote was not serious.

Lynch favourite is still NickF227. I'm also supporting a deadline extension with Ortolan and probably Deer/Bio Hazard needing replacements.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 1.17:

NickF227 (5): Bio Hazard, evilsnail, mindgamer, Mysterious Mystery Man, semioldguy
Mysterious Mystery Man (4): chauchaudotcom, farside22, McGriddle, RayFrost
Mindgamer (2): Deer, ortolan

Not Voting (1): NickF227

Deadline in 3 days. I'll consider extending it in light of the replacement issue.

[NickF227]

Vote: Mysterious Mystery Man

Because, really, me getting lynched because I want things to move a bit faster is idiotic. No one seems to be voting for mindgamer anymore, and I think both are worthy candidates.

[Deer]

I still don't like mindgamer much and I'm not quite sure MMM is scum. However, I heartily disapprove of mcgriddle and nick's votes. Gotta do some rereading.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

I'm posting because the activity in this game is lagging, but there's not much I have to say, since I still don't see a single person on my bandwagon with a good reason to vote me, except perhaps chauchaudotcom. Nick is still my number one suspect, with McGriddle as number two. I'll need to look more closely at Deer, evilsnail, ortolan, and semioldguy. I haven't had much a read on them.

[chauchaudotcom]

a) She thinks I've used OMGUS.

Correction, you DID omgus. And I let it go the first time but letting multiple infractions slip by is foolish. Secondly, the important part of my case is the fact that your voting and suspicion reasonings are weak weak weak.

Your case on Bio? End RVS early. Fine. But you found him scummy because...why? "for trying to build a case on me in RVS" aka omgus. Then you go on to say.. "It is scummy because it is distracting to me." Now distraction = scummy? =/?

Next, you may not have voted Frost BUT you have explicitly made it clear that you think Frost is scummy/suspicious. And your suspicions on Frost are poorly grounded. "he seems to be acting out even more than usual. There's an understated nervousness to his posts that I don't like."

Then when asked about it you say..."Yeah, um, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The whole splitting your statements" <- that is scum tell..how? And I never accused you of

voting

frost solely based off meta. But you have continually said Frost is scummy because of your meta nervous read, no? And I will continue to say that the case is bogus. If you're going to accuse someone based off meta you need to know their play as town, scum, and PR else your meta read is as useful as a gut read. And in general, I find that cases solely built of meta are poor anyway.

Finally, your fos on farside was pure omgus.

He didnt' say when he voted for you it wasn't serious. In fact he claimed he found both you and Mind scummy without reason.
In fact I just read Nick in isolation and no where did he allude to not being serious.

I'm calling Nick/MMM scum team right now. So far very weak reason's from MMM with no basis in fact for find Nick not bad.

FoS: farside22

I find it interesting how you decide that I'm scum with Nick solely because I didn't say I found anything scummy about his posts when I voted for him.

You're accusing people of being scummy because you don't understand their logic. Just because you don't understand their logic =/= they are scum. IF you pursue their logic, break it down and prove them wrong. Then deduce that they had scum motives for having such logic then you can conclude that they are probably scum. However, you're just jumping on your reactive emotions and going, "omg, they're accusing me with something I don't understand/agree with hence you must be scum!!" which is the pure definition of omgus.

Overall, your cases are weak and seemed forced.

However, I heartily disapprove of mcgriddle and nick's votes.

Reasons?

Because, really, me getting lynched because I want things to move a bit faster is idiotic. No one seems to be voting for mindgamer anymore, and I think both are worthy candidates.

Do you have any thoughts on players other then MMM and mindgamer? And why do you pick MMM when:

Bio Hazard, evilsnail, mindgamer, Mysterious Mystery Man, semioldguy

are ALL voting you?

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

@ cc.com:

I voted BH because he seemed like the best target at the time. He had started an attack on me since his first post, with very little information. I put an FoS on farside22 because her logic in calling me was flawed at best and scummy at worst. It boils down to the fact that I saw the phrase "Just a placeholder if I change my mind" as an indication that the accompanying vote wasn't meant to be taken quite so seriously. This is reinforced by the fact that Nick unvoted easily, as well as Nick's post 245 later on. farside22 saw the vote as scummy, so assumed that I was Nick's scumpartner. She ignored the other tells I had on Nick and Ythan, and focussed on the one spot where we disagreed. Furthermore, if I did lie about Nick's post to get him off the hook, that implies an attempt at buddying. Voting Nick implies an attempt at distancing. Even if it was logically sound to buddy and distance at the same time as a tactic, the tell only holds water if Nick is my partner. farside22 is an experienced player, so I doubt she'd misinterpret the 'tell' accidentally. So I put an FoS on her. As for RayFrost, I read him as nervous, and nervousness is likely scummy. If you don't see it, well I've done my best to explain why I see him acting nervously. It's fine if you don't agree, but you've made it out as if I've built a huge case on him. I haven't, if RayFrost hadn't questioned me about it, it wouldn't have been a big deal. Having a different opinion about another player is not a scumtell. Voting or bandwagoning a player based on something as weak as a meta read is a scumtell. But I haven't done that. I have added my meta read to my read on RayFrost, which is not scummy at all. Besides which, RayFrost DID vote me earlier in the game because he knew I was a good target for a pressure vote. That's the same as voting based on a meta. How come you're not on his case?

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 1.18:

Mysterious Mystery Man (5): chauchaudotcom, farside22, McGriddle, NickF227, RayFrost
NickF227 (5): Bio Hazard, evilsnail, mindgamer, Mysterious Mystery Man, semioldguy
Mindgamer (2): Deer, ortolan

[farside22]

I'm typically busy on the weekends I will have a go at the questions here on Monday.

[evilsnail]

Need to catch up with this game. Nick and MMM were my top suspects, but I need to see if that's still the case.

[chauchaudotcom]

How come you're not on his case?

The difference being Frost did it way early in the game (where it's generally expected) while you did yours later on in the game when there is other, more legitimate, things to be pushing for.

But in any case, your last post actually rings pretty genuine to me.

Unvote

Can people voting nick explain to me exactly what the case against him is?

I'm a little worried because deadline is tomorrow and half the players are missing. =/ I do not want a no lynch.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

My reasons for voting him are as follows:

Ythan's 'tell' on RayFrost was poor. Apparently, RayFrost said in this game that he is good as scum, and said in another game that he was bad. Not only is this tell against mafiascum.net game policy, but it makes no sense. Bragging about one's scum hunting abilities doesn't make one scum.

ISO #23 bugs me. He says he's obv town for no reason.

Ythan continues to stick with the tell on RayFrost besides numerous players saying it was bad logic.

He doesn't respond to any other cases happening, and in fact says: "Show me a better case and my vote will follow it."

Nick replaces in, and starts to push for a quicklynch.

Nick unvotes easily when informed about the quicklynch faux pas.

Nick claims that the unvote was just because the original vote was a placeholder, but revotes me soon afterward, practically admitting that it's so he won't get lynched.

farside22 and I think a few other players find Nick's original vote scummy, I don't, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway.

[farside22]

a) She thinks I've used OMGUS. As I've explained before, my vote on BH was partly to end RVS, and partly because I found his constant bandwagoning to be scummy. Concerning farside22, I don't understand her logic in declaring myself and Nick to be the scum. The fact that I didn't, and still don't find anything scummy in Nick's original vote isn't a scumtell. I voted Nick, right now I think he's got the highest chance to be scum. farside22 found me suspicious because my case on Nick didn't agree with hers. Now that's ridiculous. And, I think it's just a tad scummy. Enough to warrant an FoS.

This isn't my point. You stated you didn't think his comments were bad. I asked what post you found good and never answered that.
I see you 2 scum based on the following.
1) your lack of explanantion on what about Nik was fine.
2) nick's vote and then unvote under pressure looks scummy. He voted with little to no reason.
3) you saying it's not a serious vote but when a player says they find 2 players scummy it's a bit serious in my view

I still can't understand why you are voting me. I stated my case on Ythan/Nick, a player you also said you find scummy, and I voted for him. You find it suspicious that I didn't find Nick's vote scummy, even though I found just about everything else those players did scummy. You then declared a Nick/MMM scumteam. You say that I used 'horrible logic' in declaring Nick's vote unscummy.

I did? Where?

Nick and McG both voting with no reason. McG played this way in another game where he just floated and was town. He is going to be one of those I will never have a good read on.
Nik on the other hand is still saying the same thing he said before without putting a reason down.

chauchaudotcom: What makes you feel MMM post is genuine?

[semioldguy]

@Mysterious Mystery Man
You voting has the appearance of OMGUS and this is hardly deniable.

@everyone else holding this against him
What exactly makes his OMGUS scummy to you?

I don't like people using generic tells like this as a basis for scum hunting. It is both easy and convenient to hide behind such tells due to a wide acceptance of the tell. Please explain the motivation you see behind this OMGUS voting, and spare me a cookie-cutter response. I am not seeing a clear scum motivation here, just an action. An action can have many different possible motivations behind it depending upon context, etc. Find scum by keying into their motivations, not identifying an action.

More votes for NickF227 please. In addition to Ythan's play, NickF227's play doesn't really add up to me. Why did you choose Mysterious Mystery Man over Mindgamer initially? Also for someone who is used to much shorter timespans for games you do not post very frequently in this one. Could you link to a completed game on another site that you played in?