Mini 934 - Troubles at Smiths&Catharts (Game Over!)

[Col.Cathart]

Votecount 2.0

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch

If you'll encounter any kind of mistake in the votecount, please point it out.

not voting (10):

Kthxbye, RayFrost, Sotty7, Thor665, Zorblag, Fate, Socrates, Locke Lamora, Copper, charter

The current deadline is on

Monday, 12th April at 6:30 PM GMT +1
Countdown

[Copper]

Let's hope no one else forgot about this game during the long period of absence.

The Henry kill has me scratching my head. My assumption was that a high-activity player would be the kill, and the scum would encourage this massive turnover. Picking a lurker like HH doesn't make too much sense. While it could be for WIFOM purposes, causing a bit of confusion simply doesn't seem like a legitimate scum reason to do the town's job in hitting a lurker. Did anyone here get a PR read off of Scrambles/Henry? I personally did not, but if the scum did that would be one possible explanation. There's also the chance that kthnx is scum and worried that Henry would return and revitalize the case against him.

Fate, I have a question of you. The mod's post gave the impression that you were allowed to choose what slot you replaced in to. I'm curious as to why you chose CSL's slot over TCC's.

[Socrates]

Hello folks. Who's scum?

Full disclosure: I have some big tests this week so I wont have time to read the game in full for a few days, but that shouldn't stop me from posting.

[Socrates]

Let's hope no one else forgot about this game during the long period of absence.

The Henry kill has me scratching my head. My assumption was that a high-activity player would be the kill, and the scum would encourage this massive turnover. Picking a lurker like HH doesn't make too much sense. While it could be for WIFOM purposes, causing a bit of confusion simply doesn't seem like a legitimate scum reason to do the town's job in hitting a lurker. Did anyone here get a PR read off of Scrambles/Henry? I personally did not, but if the scum did that would be one possible explanation. There's also the chance that kthnx is scum and worried that Henry would return and revitalize the case against him.

Fate, I have a question of you. The mod's post gave the impression that you were allowed to choose what slot you replaced in to. I'm curious as to why you chose CSL's slot over TCC's.

Killing a lurker is usually a good indication that the scum team likes where things are at right now and the biggest threat to their plans is a unknown replacement jumping in and completely shifting the flow of the game.

[Sotty7]

A full game? Excellent.

While you have a point Socrates, HH had already jumped in before lurking away. His case didn't really get much traction and by the end of the day he was a scummy player to a few.

I feel like I should go back to my Ray vote. He was hyper defensive at the end of the day coming out of the wood work to poke at me who had stopped voting him at that point. He also claimed to be looking for Pom's "partners" but ended up doing a lot of nothing.

Vote: Ray

I am very interested in the new comers opinions on what has happened so far. Fate in particular.

[Fate]

Let's hope no one else forgot about this game during the long period of absence.

The Henry kill has me scratching my head. My assumption was that a high-activity player would be the kill, and the scum would encourage this massive turnover. Picking a lurker like HH doesn't make too much sense. While it could be for WIFOM purposes, causing a bit of confusion simply doesn't seem like a legitimate scum reason to do the town's job in hitting a lurker. Did anyone here get a PR read off of Scrambles/Henry? I personally did not, but if the scum did that would be one possible explanation. There's also the chance that kthnx is scum and worried that Henry would return and revitalize the case against him.

Fate, I have a question of you. The mod's post gave the impression that you were allowed to choose what slot you replaced in to. I'm curious as to why you chose CSL's slot over TCC's.

I'll tell you why, but this should make it obvious:

Vote: Socrates

On my read through (mostly skimming, then doing TCC in ISO afterward), TCC is horrible.

The sad thing is Socrates is not, but he has a LOT of scum hunting to do to make up for that slot.

Case on TCC:
-Lurks Lurks and more lurks. Unlike the SFG/CSL slot (who seemed to have replaced out for legitimate reasons)
-Says, in not so many words, "I AM scumhunting!"
-Timing of Troll vote is horrible.
-Frequent, "I'll catch up!" promises with no keeping good on them. I find that scum does this more often to try and get a free pass before eventually replacing out to try and "save the slot."
-Never has any real suspects besides lurkers at all, chooses which lurker to vote arbitrarily
-Posted tons of fluff earlier on

TLDR: I choose this slot because on a read through of the game I found TCC very likely scum. And who wants to replace into a scummy slot?
At best I'm a townie that looks horribly scummy, at worse I'm scum that looks scummy. I went with the "clean slate" slot, and what do you gain by asking me this?

Poor Socrates. But I was in a game against him where he was scum. That's why I'm calling for pressure on Socrates until he makes good on his "posting promises." I am NOT letting that slot lurk for one more page especially with a mastermind scummer like Socrates in it.

Speaking of people who have been scum against me before, Sotty. A vote on Ray Frost? How productive is that? I have trouble reading him, and he always shrugs off pressure. Feels like scum wanting to go back on a the "other" mislynch wagon from yesterday. In that game I lost to you as scum you often went after the easy lynches...

Now I'm thinking that Ray is town and you're setting up a mislynch for tomorrow after the other flips town today.

unvote vote Sotty7

Huh. Ythan said it best. (I'm writing this as I re-read)

Now, Copper, I have a question for you. Why are you meta-gaming the NK so much? Do you think Kthx is really scum just because the person suspecting him died? Do you have any other reads?

Speaking of you, TCC's flip should tell us a lot about Copper. I'm reading now at TCC was at L-2, and then Copper goes and votes... CSL? Before the TCC replacement dismantled the wagon?

Oh wow, Sotty is the one to start the Pom wagon. Thor and LL follow suit.

Tech prediction: Scum had no choice but to buss TCC because of how awful he was, then a replacement comes in and they get an excuse to shift it over to randomtarget #45: Pom.

TCC flip today tells us A LOT, as much as I hate losing Socrates as a good player, his slot has way too many connections. At least he can help us while he's here, and who knows, maybe he'll convince us he's found scum.

We know scum was on Pom's wagon most likely:
If TCC is town: the people that came on the wagon later are likely scum.
If TCC is scum: the people that shifted the wagon away from TCC and onto Pom are likely scum.

[Sotty7]

It's productive in that I think Ray is scum. You are going to have to do something better than quote Ythan to convince me otherwise. Just because I was scum in one game doesn't make me scum in this. You criticize me for going after an "easy" target but you pushing the TCC slot the easiest target of them all.

When you stop being hypocritical I'd like to know why you think Ray is town. Also you have brought nothing new to the table in regards to TCC.

You then say the scum bussed TCC and switch to Pom before singling myself and Cooper out. Two people who did not climb aboard TCC wagon.

Why nothing about Locke?
Why nothing about Kthx?
Why nothing about Troll?

Is socrates your number one scum read? Actually I would like a top three scum list from you ASAP.

[Kthxbye]

Let's hope no one else forgot about this game during the long period of absence.

The Henry kill has me scratching my head. My assumption was that a high-activity player would be the kill, and the scum would encourage this massive turnover. Picking a lurker like HH doesn't make too much sense. While it could be for WIFOM purposes, causing a bit of confusion simply doesn't seem like a legitimate scum reason to do the town's job in hitting a lurker. Did anyone here get a PR read off of Scrambles/Henry? I personally did not, but if the scum did that would be one possible explanation. There's also the chance that kthnx is scum and worried that Henry would return and revitalize the case against him.

Fate, I have a question of you. The mod's post gave the impression that you were allowed to choose what slot you replaced in to. I'm curious as to why you chose CSL's slot over TCC's.

Vote: Copper

It's my experience that when scum make a NK action that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, the first person to bring it up is usually scum. Not to mention that I agree with the part that I would have thought scum would kill a more active player...unless, you know, the scum was a very active player.

[Socrates]

Lol at Fate's case against me. Fear mongering about my ability to play as scum? The sad thing is that we rolled the town so badly in that game he is talking about that I can actually entertain the idea that he is being genuine.

As I told my scum buddies in PYPII (the game that has apparently scarred Fate for life if his case against me is any indication.) The current site meta is at a point that heavily favors scum as they can do whatever they want extremely blatantly and if anybody tries to draw attention to it, that point gets dismissed as WIFOM and scummy setup/NK speculation.

If people had actually engaged in such a thing in any meaningful fashion in that game, we would have been royally fucked (pardon my french), but they didn't and now Fate apparently lives in fear of the name Socrates.

Let's hope no one else forgot about this game during the long period of absence.

The Henry kill has me scratching my head. My assumption was that a high-activity player would be the kill, and the scum would encourage this massive turnover. Picking a lurker like HH doesn't make too much sense. While it could be for WIFOM purposes, causing a bit of confusion simply doesn't seem like a legitimate scum reason to do the town's job in hitting a lurker. Did anyone here get a PR read off of Scrambles/Henry? I personally did not, but if the scum did that would be one possible explanation. There's also the chance that kthnx is scum and worried that Henry would return and revitalize the case against him.

Fate, I have a question of you. The mod's post gave the impression that you were allowed to choose what slot you replaced in to. I'm curious as to why you chose CSL's slot over TCC's.

Vote: Copper

It's my experience that when scum make a NK action that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, the first person to bring it up is usually scum. Not to mention that I agree with the part that I would have thought scum would kill a more active player...unless, you know, the scum was a very active player.

[Citation needed] + Hypocrisy =

vote:Kthxbye

[Socrates]

Actually, scratch that. I did some thinking and after looking at my predecessor's ISO and some of the vote counts yesterday, my player slot was probably the mislynch of choice today and Fate is probably scum that is frustrated that there is actually a competent player in the slot now so he wont be able to coast into an easy lynch.

Regarding his actual case on TCC, those are all newb + low motivation tells, not scum tells. I could go at them point by point, but I am too lazy right now.

unvote, vote:Fate

Kthx is still scum though.

[Copper]

Fate, I have to say I'm not quite seeing your line of thought. In one breath, it looks as though you're nearly certain that TCC/Socrates is scum. But lines like this:

Poor Socrates. But I was in a game against him where he was scum. That's why I'm calling for pressure on Socrates until he makes good on his "posting promises." I am NOT letting that slot lurk for one more page especially with a mastermind scummer like Socrates in it.

and this:

TCC flip today tells us A LOT, as much as I hate losing Socrates as a good player, his slot has way too many connections. At least he can help us while he's here, and who knows, maybe he'll convince us he's found scum.

make it sound more like a fatalistic policy lynch for information. If you're thinking he's scum, then I'm curious as to why you think he will help us while he's here.

Speaking of you, TCC's flip should tell us a lot about Copper. I'm reading now at TCC was at L-2, and then Copper goes and votes... CSL? Before the TCC replacement dismantled the wagon?

...

Tech prediction: Scum had no choice but to buss TCC because of how awful he was, then a replacement comes in and they get an excuse to shift it over to randomtarget #45: Pom.

I have already given my reasoning on why I believe TCC (and thus, Socrates) to be a townie. As I've said multiple times to other people in this thread, if you want to contend that TCC has been bussed by her scumbuddies, I want to know who you think those bussing buddies are.

---

Vote: Copper

It's my experience that when scum make a NK action that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, the first person to bring it up is usually scum. Not to mention that I agree with the part that I would have thought scum would kill a more active player...unless, you know, the scum was a very active player.

The fact that it is a personal attack on myself aside, this stance simply doesn't make any sense. If you're a townie, there is a very strong chance the scum are attempting to frame you, and your reaction is that night-kill analysis itself is scummy - that if we all agreed to not use this source of information it would be impossible for night kills to frame people. While this is true, it's obviously sub-optimal - and, more to the point, you yourself go against this idea with your very next sentence.

The points of your post 707 are that 1.) using nightkill analysis to help find the scum is scummy and 2.) you think Copper is scum because of nightkill analysis. You'll forgive me for failing to find your viewpoint earnest.

And to jump back to fate:

Now, Copper, I have a question for you. Why are you meta-gaming the NK so much? Do you think Kthx is really scum just because the person suspecting him died? Do you have any other reads?

I think the night kill is a useful source of information and I hardly think that a paragraph of thought is 'so much', especially when it's the new information that heralded the start of the day.

I do not think that the case makes kthnx certain scum. That's what qualifiers like 'There's also the chance' are meant to signify.

I do have other reads, and they aren't exactly easy to miss. You are still my most likely bet for scum, but I was waiting on that line of thought for you to get some content of your own off the ground. That being said, your heavy-handed threats against Sotty and myself, particularly in light of the fact that you think the scum bussed TCC, are not doing much to alleviate my suspicions.

Vote: Fate

[Fate]

Copper's NK meta-gaming is definitely suspect. A fluff post that allows him to not comment on Day play or the Pom wagon post-flip.

I have no problem with Troll. Maybe because I can't read him at all, but he has sounded pretty townie so far.

Locke Lamora, gets plenty of town points from Ythan who I have a strong meta read on. He came onto the Pom wagon later, which means he is most likely scum if TCC is town. Other than that he's been a lot less active than Ythan.

Kthx replaced NS, who had some rage issues with Ythan that I thought were pretty scummy. (Frustrated scum replacing out when town tunnels you correctly). Takes RayFrost seriously and role fish,+scumpoints.
Continues to fight with Ythan as his predecessor did. Leaning town on town. Starts a wagon on TCC, who I think is scum.

I'm not moving my vote from Socrates until he contributes enough to get a read, pending that, may move it to Copper.

[Fate]

make it sound more like a fatalistic policy lynch for information. If you're thinking he's scum, then I'm curious as to why you think he will help us while he's here.

Policy lynch? Hell no. It is an

information

lynch. Are you trying to shed doubt on the connections to TCC? Are you worried that once your buddy flips you'll look really bad?

And ANY player, regardless of alignment, can "help us" by posting meaningful posts. The more Socrates talks today, the easier it will be to find his scum buddy (if scum) or scum, (if he's town and actually looking for scum).

I made my previous post without reading Socrates+Copper, for the record.

Also, you didn't answer, why did you ask me why I choose the slot I did? What read did you think you would get by asking such a question?

Re Socrates:
I do still think about that game at least three times a week. I daresay it has left a scar on me, but your play wasn't the one who fooled me. Still, I think you're a competent player, and if you noticed, I'd be willing to NOT lynch you if you just provided some content.

So far you haven't, vote stays. "Lol Kthx is scum. No wait FATE is! For voting me! Lololol"

You can't defend your previous' slots actions, I know. But you were a major wagon yesterday. Analyze your wagon, SOMETHING, useful, and then self-vote. If you're town, take one for the team, I know we can find scum on your wagon. If you're scum, self-hammarzz.

Kthxbye. Oh wait I can't say that...

[charter]

Ugh, what a pickle. Between Copper, Kthx, and Socrates, there is massive scummage. In addition to everything from yesterday, they've all already been scummy today. Copper's first post today was ultrascummy. A load of NK WIFOM garbage coupled with a lot of nothing. Kthx's vote is really hypocritical, though well placed. Socrates inherited TCC's role which is scummy with his connections to Copper plus his response to Fate's case against him. He strawmanned it down to 'Fate voted me because I played well in another game' when Fate gave several more reasons. Some of them I don't think Socrates can really respond to, but he shrugged those off by saying he's lazy.

Right now I'm gonna stick with

vote Socrates

and try this number again.

[Copper]

Also, you didn't answer, why did you ask me why I choose the slot I did? What read did you think you would get by asking such a question?

Although the amount of replacements in this game has been unusual, the Mod giving the replacement the choice on who he wants to replace in, I would argue, is definitely not standard practice. Surely this choice implies that you looked over the game before making your selection, and there are all sorts of strings attached to this. Was CSL a "better" slot? Did you think you'd be able to wield more power? Were you prepared to argue that TCC was scum? Did you not want to play as scum/town?

Are you trying to shed doubt on the connections to TCC? Are you worried that once your buddy flips you'll look really bad?

Why not go the whole nine yards? Are you prepared to line up your lynches? Socrates scum automatically means Copper is the next lynch and vice versa?

I'd be willing to NOT lynch you if you just provided some content.

Here it is again. In one breath, Socrates and I are both 100% scum partners, and in the next, you ask Socrates to provide enough content to give you an excuse not to vote him. Just claiming that Socrates' graceful presence is enough to justify moving your vote is bad, but when you go against it all to say he's your biggest scumread, then you're doublespeaking.

[Fate]

Also, you didn't answer, why did you ask me why I choose the slot I did? What read did you think you would get by asking such a question?

Although the amount of replacements in this game has been unusual, the Mod giving the replacement the choice on who he wants to replace in, I would argue, is definitely not standard practice. Surely this choice implies that you looked over the game before making your selection, and there are all sorts of strings attached to this. Was CSL a "better" slot? Did you think you'd be able to wield more power? Were you prepared to argue that TCC was scum? Did you not want to play as scum/town?

"Wield more power." What is that supposed to mean? Rolefish much? You mean influence? ANY slot has only as much influence as any other, unless there's a double voter of course. I've replaced into hopeless town slots before (check my wiki, I was lynched in MyLo after replacing into a double replacement), where there was nothing I could do to argue against the scumminess of my predecessors.

But not every slot is the same scum wise. I won't repeat myself about the clean slate.

Are you trying to shed doubt on the connections to TCC? Are you worried that once your buddy flips you'll look really bad?

Why not go the whole nine yards? Are you prepared to line up your lynches? Socrates scum automatically means Copper is the next lynch and vice versa?

Twisting my arguments, I see? So now seeing connections between playes is "lining up lynches" not "searching for the scum team." I think TCC's slot is scum, as RayFrost said before, what is wrong with looking for his partner?

Here it is again. In one breath, Socrates and I are both 100% scum partners, and in the next, you ask Socrates to provide enough content to give you an excuse not to vote him. Just claiming that Socrates' graceful presence is enough to justify moving your vote is bad, but when you go against it all to say he's your biggest scumread, then you're doublespeaking.

100%? I never used such strong language. Socrates, if town, isn't a "graceful presence." He's a pro town force. You act like I'm calling for a "QUICK LETS LYNCH SOCRATES AND THEN LYNCH OFF HIS FLIPS!" No. I want Socrates to say his piece first. I've tunneled before as town and I lost two games in one day this week because of it.

Copper, your vote was in a few places yesterday besides my slot.
What do you think of another Ray Frost wagon and Sotty's advocation for it?
Who do you think as most likely scum on Pomegranate's wagon?
Why did you vote Pomegranate when she was the only person to vote CSL (me) with you? Did you think Pom+CSL was likely? Why?

Still happy with my Socrates vote. Socrates, besides Kthx being scum for "hypocrisy" (what?) and me being scum for being on you, what else do you have to say? YOU NEED TO CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS!

@Rest of game: D2, post please, Kthxhello.

[Locke Lamora]

Copper: I've both made and seen NKs made for the reason that it'll make the town go 'that doesn't make any sense' and consequently waste time wondering why. If you think it doesn't make any sense, it's probably not supposed to. Even if you work out that it was because of some perceived PR slip, what have you gained?

Fate: why do you hate losing Socrates as a good player? Shouldn't we only keep good players if they're town? This seems to miss the point of the lynch.

[Sotty7]

Vote: Copper

It's my experience

that when scum make a NK action that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, the first person to bring it up is usually scum. Not to mention that I agree with the part that I would have thought scum would kill a more active player...unless, you know, the scum was a very active player.

Links please.

Copper's Post 710 is exactly why I wanted to know if Socrates was Fate's number one. Lots of contradicting language there which makes me believe you don't even believe yourself and/or you are already planning for your out come tomorrow.

I have no problem with Troll. Maybe because I can't read him at all, but he has sounded pretty townie so far.

Which is it? You can't read him or your leaning town on him?

You also didn't really answer my question, I would like to see your top three scum picks in your next post.

make it sound more like a fatalistic policy lynch for information. If you're thinking he's scum, then I'm curious as to why you think he will help us while he's here.

Policy lynch? Hell no. It is an

information

lynch. Are you trying to shed doubt on the connections to TCC? Are you worried that once your buddy flips you'll look really bad?

And ANY player, regardless of alignment, can "help us" by posting meaningful posts. The more Socrates talks today, the easier it will be to find his scum buddy (if scum) or scum, (if he's town and actually looking for scum).

This is such a cop out any player slot would be a good information lynch at this point. you are reaching so bad on such shaky logic it's not even funny.

Charter, you think Fate is town?

Unvote, Vote: Fate

Fate's attack on Socrates is awful, this TTC was bussed theory doesn't even hold weight under his own analysis in post 711. Won't provide a solid scum list. Wants to lynch for information at this point. if Fate is scum then I doubt Ray is because of how he scolded my vote. Smacks of I told you so. Definitely regretting not following Copper onto CSL yesterday now.

[RayFrost]

posting to let you guys know that I'm going to post soon, also posting to avoid being prodded in the meantime.

[charter]

Charter, you think Fate is town?

No.
The major hesitation I have with Fate is how Copper keeps coming up with these absurd reasons for suspecting him. Yesterday it was CSL made a joke vote, so that made him scum. Today it's 'the mod let Fate choose which slot he replaced in to' he's questioned him in a couple posts. Copper mixes these things that have no bearing on Fate/CSL's alignment in with things that are scummy to inflate his case, which is scummy of Copper and the reason I'm suspicious of Copper and not Fate/CSL. If it was just once I'd write it off, but there's a pattern of it happening, which I can't ignore.

[Col.Cathart]

Two short announcements:

1) About Fate and choosing the player to replace: I thought it's a good idea to give a replacing player a chance to actually choose the spot, as to do this, they must check the game from the outsider perspective, and therefore get more in touch with the game. So yeah, Fate had a choice between replacing TCC or CSL. CSL also had a choice between Ythan, Sajin and Scrambles. Unfortunately, due to 'OMG WTF BBQ, I need a players ASAP, or this game is dead' situation, I had to break that rule when LL and charter replaced in. Looks like it brought a lot of unnecessary confusion, so I'll probably drop that idea in the future and just give the replacement spots according to the time since I needed replacement for flaking spot.

2) Haven't slept since 27 hours due to my damaged biological clock AND exam hell. Forgive me for no fresh votecount for now. It will come as soon as I'll wake up. See you (probably) tomorrow!

[Kthxbye]

I like my vote. Just thought you all should know.

[Sotty7]

Your vote sucks. Please comment on Fate/Socrates.

[Fate]

I have no problem with Troll. Maybe because I can't read him at all, but he has sounded pretty townie so far.

Which is it? You can't read him or your leaning town on him?

Leaning town for now. More lynches and vote count analysis. will tell us about a player like troll (see: hard to read).

You also didn't really answer my question, I would like to see your top three scum picks in your next post.

I don't see why I need to spell it out for your:
1. Socrates
2. Copper
3. Sotty

I made this clear from my analysis of D1.

This is such a cop out any player slot would be a good information lynch at this point. you are reaching so bad on such shaky logic it's not even funny.

You are twisting so hard with a chainsaw defense it is not even funny. Socrates has still yet to do anything to alleviate his slot. Combined with your posts I am leaning more and more scum on Soc.

Fate's attack on Socrates is awful, this TTC was bussed theory doesn't even hold weight under his own analysis in post 711. Won't provide a solid scum list. Wants to lynch for information at this point. if Fate is scum then I doubt Ray is because of how he scolded my vote. Smacks of I told you so. Definitely regretting not following Copper onto CSL yesterday now.

How can a theory hold any more weight than a theory without actual facts? I'm not selling the "TCC WAS BUSSED" any harder than just a theory until after that slot flips. I'm not going to tunnel vision and ignore the fact it just as easily could have been a mislynch that lost traction and switched to Pom.

[Socrates]

I like my vote. Just thought you all should know.

What a great way to handle points levied against you. Just ignore it! I think I am going to adopt this strategy for myself (Hi Fate!).

If you don't feel like responding to me, respond to Copper who took the time to parse why your post was scummy into an actual paragraph.

Also, I was serious about the [citation needed] thing. Please justify your stance on NK speculation with some links. In the mean time, I am calling bullshit.