Mini 948 - Victorian Vampire - Game Over

[SpyreX]

Yes, that is my case.

Ohh wait lets try again.

* voted for me as a smokescreen from the pressure you were already getting. Look at post 91.
* opted to keep the vote on me after saying you didn't find me scummy anymore because there were no other cases
* asked for more flavor from Darox AND THEN said it was a bad thing. Literally, on the same page, went "claim more, wait claiming is bad".
* gave the example of "The Vampire Hunter" coming out as an example of this and then had the sheer cajones to say there was no slippery slope.

[cruelty]

I'm embracing the ability to throw my vote around in this game. It's liberating.

you're not used to being able to move your vote around?

no, i have the ability to but don't - normally i'm a very cautious voter. decided to change it up for a couple of recent games.

[JoshTheStampede]

Yes, that is my case.

Ohh wait lets try again.

* voted for me as a smokescreen from the pressure you were already getting. Look at post 91.
* opted to keep the vote on me after saying you didn't find me scummy anymore because there were no other cases
* asked for more flavor from Darox AND THEN said it was a bad thing. Literally, on the same page, went "claim more, wait claiming is bad".
* gave the example of "The Vampire Hunter" coming out as an example of this and then had the sheer cajones to say there was no slippery slope.

Yes, just keep repeating those points. Never mind the fact that I explained them already, or that they never made sense the first time you said them.

Seriously, are you reading the same game as the rest of us? Reading you in iso it becomes clear that nothing you have said this game makes an iota of sense. It's like you picked my name out of a hat and decided to willfully misinterpret everything I say because you've already decided on my alignment.

Or is it that you locked onto me because I voted for you originally? Is this just some extended grudge? Can we try to actually get some scumhunting done here?

[SpyreX]

You explained keeping a vote on someone you don't think is scummy?
You explained there be no other cases?
You explained why you would ASK for scumhunting to get done (see above)?
You've explained how this:

For example, if Darox comes out and says "Hey guys I'm the Innkeeper" no one really knows what that means, but if it causes Player B to then say "Yeah, I'm the Vampire Hunter" or "I'm the Holy Water Salesman" or something it's a lot worse in terms of bullseyes for the nightkill.

Isn't a slippery slope?

[JoshTheStampede]

You explained keeping a vote on someone you don't think is scummy?
You explained there be no other cases?
You explained why you would ASK for scumhunting to get done (see above)?
You've explained how this:

For example, if Darox comes out and says "Hey guys I'm the Innkeeper" no one really knows what that means, but if it causes Player B to then say "Yeah, I'm the Vampire Hunter" or "I'm the Holy Water Salesman" or something it's a lot worse in terms of bullseyes for the nightkill.

Isn't a slippery slope?

I explained the 1st one several times. The rest of them I don't actually know what you're talking about. I'm sorry I didn't "explain there be no other cases", whatever that means.

I'm asking for scumhunting to get done as opposed to continuing this useless derail, and I still don't understand how you think my "slippery slope" argument makes me scum. I think you just like to yell "slippery slope" as if it proves your point, which, again, I still am not clear on what your point even is.

Do you think I'm scum because I tried to prevent a possible claim? Even if you are certain no claim was coming, why would scum try to prevent claiming at all? Does that make any sense to you at all?

I am now officially done arguing with you about this completely ludicrous waste of everyone's time. Feel free to get in the last word if you want. Feel free to post the same things again and see if anyone else will join you on the absurd wagon. Also feel free to make any real cases you want, but I'm just not going to feed the troll about this one anymore.

My vote is on cruelty for reasons I have explained. I think SpyreX is just an insane townie who has tunneled onto me for reasons beyond my comprehension, but with every post he makes I question whether anyone could really be as deluded as he sounds. For now though, I don't think he's scum.

I would really, really like to hear from anyone else in this game about pretty much anything that doesn't involve crazy ranting from SpyreX or the words "slippery slope" or "roleclaim". Posts that don't sound like they were run through Babelfish a few times would be a plus, too.

[SpyreX]

Yes that simple mistake in typing really makes what I was trying to get across SOOO HARD it required multiple paragraphs backhandedly insulting me.

So, I'll try it again with using my right words:

You've explained how there were "no other cases" on anyone (and didn't try to make them happen) being a solid justification for keeping your vote on someone you didn't think was scummy?

Because that sure was your justification for keeping your vote there until cruelty.

Which has some awesome rationales for it, btw.

Ohh and this "derail" doesn't stop you from scumhunting. Nothing can stop you from doing it. However, it sure paints a great excuse to not scumhunt.

Which every time you whine about NO SCUMHUNTING it sure is. Or every extra bit of energy you use slapfighting me (while being damn sure to say I'm not scum) instead of focusing your efforts on looking for scum are.

[SpyreX]

(and note I even gave you what you wanted with a post detailing this BS without using those quoted words which are, in fact, huge red flags for your behavior)

(the fact I could do this makes me very happy with your lynch)

(I shouldn't be able to do that 7 pages in)

(Please focus your efforts here like you said you wouldn't and then cry to the heavens about there being no scumhunting still)

[JoshTheStampede]

As for my vote, the three people on my wagon had totally valid reasons to be there, though of course I think the reasons are incorrect.

<snip>

I know I'm going to get accused of OMGUS here, but

unvote, vote cruelty

. Please note that I don't have any problem with the other people on my wagon, and so this is not an OMGUS vote.

This is kind of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't', but it's still a valid point: newbie town would be more likely to freak out and say "everyone who's voting me is scum" then to say "yeah, you're all reasonable people with valid points against me except this one."

I'm not really sure if you meant this to mean that I don't sound like a newbie, or that I don't sound like town. Can you elaborate?

[JoshTheStampede]

Would still like to hear more from people who haven't posted much at all, like Darox, zang, and easj0682. Some people haven't really posted much since we left RVS.

I realize it was Easter weekend and so people were probably busy, and so hopefully it will pick up in the next day or so.

[ElectricBadger]

Vote Count:

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

(1) Ooba: Darox
(3) CryMeARiver: MagnaofIllusion, Yosarian2, Ooba
(4) JoshTheStampede: easjo682, TheSkeward, SpyreX, cruelty
(1) Slaine Hayes: CryMeARiver
(1) cruelty: JoshTheStampede

(2) Not Voting:Zang, Slaine Hayes

Day One ends by April 20th at toll of midnight PST.

A young midwife has vanished from the town, her innocent smile last seen only steps from her home.

[easjo682]

You explained keeping a vote on someone you don't think is scummy?
You explained there be no other cases?
You explained why you would ASK for scumhunting to get done (see above)?
You've explained how this:

For example, if Darox comes out and says "Hey guys I'm the Innkeeper" no one really knows what that means, but if it causes Player B to then say "Yeah, I'm the Vampire Hunter" or "I'm the Holy Water Salesman" or something it's a lot worse in terms of bullseyes for the nightkill.

Isn't a slippery slope?

I explained the 1st one several times. The rest of them I don't actually know what you're talking about. I'm sorry I didn't "explain there be no other cases", whatever that means.

I'm asking for scumhunting to get done as opposed to continuing this useless derail, and I still don't understand how you think my "slippery slope" argument makes me scum. I think you just like to yell "slippery slope" as if it proves your point, which, again, I still am not clear on what your point even is.

Do you think I'm scum because I tried to prevent a possible claim? Even if you are certain no claim was coming, why would scum try to prevent claiming at all? Does that make any sense to you at all?

I am now officially done arguing with you about this completely ludicrous waste of everyone's time. Feel free to get in the last word if you want. Feel free to post the same things again and see if anyone else will join you on the absurd wagon. Also feel free to make any real cases you want, but I'm just not going to feed the troll about this one anymore.

My vote is on cruelty for reasons I have explained. I think SpyreX is just an insane townie who has tunneled onto me for reasons beyond my comprehension, but with every post he makes I question whether anyone could really be as deluded as he sounds. For now though, I don't think he's scum.

I would really, really like to hear from anyone else in this game about pretty much anything that doesn't involve crazy ranting from SpyreX or the words "slippery slope" or "roleclaim". Posts that don't sound like they were run through Babelfish a few times would be a plus, too.

First thing, Slippery slope arguement is a genuine fallacy and it is here in the debated post. Just because one player make a claim doesn't mean that everyone will start claim their flavour role. Also you're being speculative with the role names, we can't know if the mod wouldv'e titled roles "vampire hunter" or with simpler, less obvious titles like "nobleman" or "fisher"

Its not a good idea to be "done arguing" in mafia it comes off as though the questions are unearthing something.

[Yosarian2]

First thing, Slippery slope arguement is a genuine fallacy and it is here in the debated post. Just because one player make a claim doesn't mean that everyone will start claim their flavour role.

Except that the reason that a person bothers to say "claiming role names is bad" is obvioulsy to stop OTHER people from claiming role names.

Also you're being speculative with the role names, we can't know if the mod wouldv'e titled roles "vampire hunter" or with simpler, less obvious titles like "nobleman" or "fisher"

AND THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF THING THAT NO ONE SHOULD BE SAYING.

This kind of "hay but if there's a power role x then we don't know if the mod would give it a name like y" is EXACTLY the kind of comment I was trying to stop anyone from saying, because some people obviously *do* know their own role name and how it ties into their own role, and some people don't know what kind of role name the mod'd give to power roles, and we obviously don't want the scum to know which is which. And, of course, besides that, the more we talk about this, the easier it is for scum to fake claims later.

Now, can we please not have anyone else make this kind of comments?

Its not a good idea to be "done arguing" in mafia it comes off as though the questions are unearthing something.

Yes, they are "unearthing something", that something being PEOPLE'S ROLES. Sheesh.

[cruelty]

Ok, wow. If you guys think that me warning Darox not to claim (which, admittedly, was overly cautious) makes me scum, I don't know what to tell you.

It's not that you didn't want him to claim, it's that your desire for him not to claim came after you asked for more info. Like you suddenly realised how bad you looked.

I'm not sure why you think scum would go out of their way to prevent claiming when it only helps them, but maybe you have thought about this more than I have.

Because it looks bad. Also, as I said, I don't believe your initial intent was to prevent the claim, in fact, quite the opposite.

Yes, I was one of the original people who asked Darox to clarify about Innkeeper. But then, after I posted, I realized that was a bad idea to ask, and so I warned him, as we have discussed.

"Oh shit, this looks bad. I think I'll now assume a contradictory position to make myself look better".

As for my vote, the three people on my wagon had totally valid reasons to be there, though of course I think the reasons are incorrect. Cruelty, however, chimed in just to say he agreed with SpyreX's crazy "point", and threw his vote in too, in what I think is a huge opportunistic bandwagon vote.

This would be a much more valid point if my vote wasn't justified by your actions. Should I have made up some other reason to vote for you? Am I not allowed to agree that (X) is scummy and is voteworthy? Get outta here son.

I know I'm going to get accused of OMGUS here, but

unvote, vote cruelty

. Please note that I don't have any problem with the other people on my wagon, and so this is not an OMGUS vote.

lol?

- that doesn't make it not an OMGUS vote.
- you're extraordinarily worried about it being OMGUS (really man, it's 2010, we're lax about that shit).

[JoshTheStampede]

It's not that you didn't want him to claim, it's that your desire for him not to claim came after you asked for more info. Like you suddenly realised how bad you looked.

I don't care how bad it LOOKED. I realized how bad an idea it actually WAS.

I don't believe your initial intent was to prevent the claim, in fact, quite the opposite.

Ok. You're welcome to your opinion.

This would be a much more valid point if my vote wasn't justified by your actions. Should I have made up some other reason to vote for you? Am I not allowed to agree that (X) is scummy and is voteworthy? Get outta here son.

No, you shouldn't have made up any reasons to vote for me. But agreeing with what I think is a clearly insane position without being insane yourself is, in my opinion, scummy, hence my vote.

you're extraordinarily worried about it being OMGUS (really man, it's 2010, we're lax about that shit).

Fair enough. I play in some other places where people get pretty uptight about OMGUS votes, I guess.

[JoshTheStampede]

First thing, Slippery slope arguement is a genuine fallacy and it is here in the debated post. Just because one player make a claim doesn't mean that everyone will start claim their flavour role. Also you're being speculative with the role names, we can't know if the mod wouldv'e titled roles "vampire hunter" or with simpler, less obvious titles like "nobleman" or "fisher"

Its not a good idea to be "done arguing" in mafia it comes off as though the questions are unearthing something.

Yes, slippery slope is an actual logical fallacy. I may have even committed it. But I don't see at all how that was scummy. I just do not see how being overly concerned about claiming is scummy in any way, even if my logic was incorrect.

Also, I'm not done arguing altogether. I'm done arguing with SpyreX about that topic, because my pages of argument with him led me to believe he is either a crazy person or misinterpreting things on purpose, and I don't think arguing with him will accomplish anything other than spamming the thread and preventing other avenues of discussion. He thinks I'm scum, I think he's crazy, and we all know this now, along with reasons on both sides. Anything more between SpyreX and I at this point would just be shouting at each other, basically.

[ooba]

Yes, I was one of the original people who asked Darox to clarify about Innkeeper. But then, after I posted, I realized that was a bad idea to ask, and so I warned him, as we have discussed.

"Oh shit, this looks bad. I think I'll now assume a contradictory position to make myself look better".

If he was scum and realized it was bad after posting it - and didn't want to get any heat for it, the correct play would have been to say nothing. After all, there were two other players who had asked the same question - safety in numbers. Why would he backtrack and draw unnecessary attention?

It's not scummy - its null.

[SpyreX]

Don't think that because I'm arguing WITH you the argument is ABOUT you. I'm not going to convince you that you're scum.

If he was scum and realized it was bad after posting it - and didn't want to get any heat for it, the correct play would have been to say nothing. After all, there were two other players who had asked the same question - safety in numbers. Why would he backtrack and draw unnecessary attention?

It's not scummy - its null.

Swapping positions in a major way within a span of a few posts and not even making mention of the swap - it wasn't like he went "Disregard my very bad question and don't give any information" is null?

Sweet.

[Zang]

You explained keeping a vote on someone you don't think is scummy? 
You explained there be no other cases?
You explained why you would ASK for scumhunting to get done (see above)?
You've explained how this:

For example, if Darox comes out and says "Hey guys I'm the Innkeeper" no one really knows what that means, but if it causes Player B to then say "Yeah, I'm the Vampire Hunter" or "I'm the Holy Water Salesman" or something it's a lot worse in terms of bullseyes for the nightkill.

Isn't a slippery slope?

I explained the 1st one several times. The rest of them I don't actually know what you're talking about. I'm sorry I didn't "explain there be no other cases", whatever that means. 

I'm asking for scumhunting to get done as opposed to continuing this useless derail, and I still don't understand how you think my "slippery slope" argument makes me scum. I think you just like to yell "slippery slope" as if it proves your point, which, again, I still am not clear on what your point even is. 

Do you think I'm scum because I tried to prevent a possible claim? Even if you are certain no claim was coming, why would scum try to prevent claiming at all? Does that make any sense to you at all? 

I am now officially done arguing with you about this completely ludicrous waste of everyone's time. Feel free to get in the last word if you want. Feel free to post the same things again and see if anyone else will join you on the absurd wagon. Also feel free to make any real cases you want, but I'm just not going to feed the troll about this one anymore. 

My vote is on cruelty for reasons I have explained. I think SpyreX is just an insane townie who has tunneled onto me for reasons beyond my comprehension, but with every post he makes I question whether anyone could really be as deluded as he sounds. For now though, I don't think he's scum.

I would really, really like to hear from anyone else in this game about pretty much anything that doesn't involve crazy ranting from SpyreX or the words "slippery slope" or "roleclaim". Posts that don't sound like they were run through Babelfish a few times would be a plus, too.

I agree with Josh that he did explain the first one but just because he explained it doesn't mean his logic is sound. All I got from that argument was that Josh hates unvoting without having someone else to vote for. I still do not understand why though.

And this is a waste of time, I see minimal scumhunting being done at the moment. I see an argument that is currently going nowhere.

And spyrex, just because he was asking if daroxs inkeeper statement was a claim doesn't mean he wanted him to claim. He was just asking for clarification which I do not find scummy. Either "yes i'm claiming" or "no it's something else". And if the answer is yes than darox should be the one to be blamed, not Josh.

And I'm sorry for my low activity, it was easter weekend and I really wasn't feeling so good (i'm still not).

[TheSkeward]

As for my vote, the three people on my wagon had totally valid reasons to be there, though of course I think the reasons are incorrect.

<snip>

I know I'm going to get accused of OMGUS here, but

unvote, vote cruelty

. Please note that I don't have any problem with the other people on my wagon, and so this is not an OMGUS vote.

This is kind of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't', but it's still a valid point: newbie town would be more likely to freak out and say "everyone who's voting me is scum" then to say "yeah, you're all reasonable people with valid points against me except this one."

I'm not really sure if you meant this to mean that I don't sound like a newbie, or that I don't sound like town. Can you elaborate?

You don't sound like newbie town. Meaning you are likely to be either someone's alt or (much more likely) scum.

[JoshTheStampede]

You don't sound like newbie town. Meaning you are likely to be either someone's alt or (much more likely) scum.

Do you really think those are the only two options?

I'm new to this site, but not new to the game of Mafia. This is my 2nd game here. The other one is still ongoing.

[SpyreX]

And spyrex, just because he was asking if daroxs inkeeper statement was a claim doesn't mean he wanted him to claim. He was just asking for clarification which I do not find scummy. Either "yes i'm claiming" or "no it's something else". And if the answer is yes than darox should be the one to be blamed, not Josh.

No, he didn't outright say "claim now". No one is that obvious.

Is that a flavorclaim is an

implicated

claim because either answer serves the same purpose.

[easjo682]

AND THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF THING THAT NO ONE SHOULD BE SAYING.

This kind of "hay but if there's a power role x then we don't know if the mod would give it a name like y" is EXACTLY the kind of comment I was trying to stop anyone from saying, because some people obviously *do* know their own role name and how it ties into their own role, and some people don't know what kind of role name the mod'd give to power roles, and we obviously don't want the scum to know which is which. And, of course, besides that, the more we talk about this, the easier it is for scum to fake claims later.

it was kinda what I was trying point out, yeah I could've been more tactful with it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm pretty sure EB (our mod) is smart enough to give the flavour roles no connection to their alignment role

Interesting commentary. Are you suggesting that perhaps an Innkeeper might be a Mafian type involved in waylaying Townies? And why not put forth the assumption that EB might have crafted safe-claims instead?

I'm embracing the ability to throw my vote around in this game. It's liberating.

Your softclaim of VT is noted.

Cruelty, however, chimed in just to say he agreed with SpyreX's

crazy

"point", and threw his vote in too, in what I think is a huge opportunistic bandwagon vote. It's not scummy to be

insane

. It is scummy to claim to agree with illogical cases just so you can vote.

I think SpyreX is just an

insane

townie who has tunneled onto me for reasons beyond my comprehension, but with every post he makes I question whether anyone could really be as

deluded

as he sounds.

I would really, really like to hear from anyone else in this game about pretty much anything that doesn't involve

crazy

ranting from SpyreX or the words "slippery slope" or "roleclaim".

Posts that don't sound like they were run through Babelfish a few times would be a plus, too.

Bolding emphasis mine. You may disagree with SpreX’es thinking but the constant refrain that he’s crazy I find worth questioning. Do you really believe he is insane for attacking what can easily be seen as backpeddling on your part? Slinging insults is a common reaction fishing technique. Is this your normal style of scum-hunting?

You don't sound like newbie town. Meaning you are likely to be either someone's alt or (much more likely) scum.

Pardon my asking but how do you know what a newbie town is supposed to sound like? You have an even later join date than Josh. Does that make you an alt? Also, what relevance does the relative new-ness (or lack thereof) to MS have to do with someone’s alignment?

[JoshTheStampede]

Bolding emphasis mine. You may disagree with SpreX’es thinking but the constant refrain that he’s crazy I find worth questioning. Do you really believe he is insane for attacking what can easily be seen as backpeddling on your part? Slinging insults is a common reaction fishing technique. Is this your normal style of scum-hunting?

I don't think he is literally a committable insane person, no. But almost all of his posts actually make zero sense to me. I'm not just slinging insults, I actually can't make heads or tails of most of what he says.

Maybe English isn't his first language, maybe he just has bad internet grammar, or maybe he's just using weird sayings I'm not used to because we're from different parts of the country or something, I don't know.

I used the word "crazy" rather than "wrong" because that's how the posts sound to me. It literally reads like he is either reading a completely different thread, or that he is misinterpreting everything so wildly that no reasonable person could honestly see things the way he claims to.

[cruelty]

I'm embracing the ability to throw my vote around in this game. It's liberating.

Your softclaim of VT is noted.

you're reading way too deeply into that.