Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Patrick]

Votecount

Pomegranate (6) -- Albert B. Rampage, RichardGHP, Porochaz, Jahudo, Seraphim, Espeonage
Porochaz (1) -- Javert
Espeonmage (2) -- Pomegranate, Sando

Not voting: farside22, Faraday, dybeck, boberz, Ojanen, NickF227, curiouskarmadog, Anon, Amished
18 alive, 10 to lynch.

Deadline: 1st of May

[Faraday]

Why wouldn't Papa Zito kill anyone? Was he roleblocked? Did anyone suspect he was a vig?

IIRC Bv mentioned it.

I think Faraday is suspicious because of his response to this where he used it as an excuse to set up a potential vig claim later.

FOS Faraday

Lolwut. I'm not sure what you mean here. How could I concievably set up a vig claim? And I was just using what zito did as I too had seen it in another game and thought it was useful.

Also, I think Papa Vito may have been holding onto his shots because of the theme...the Karma element of it. It's really vaguely described and there might be more to his role that suggested that shooting might be a bad thing.

Well there's also the fact limited shot vigs tend to be more careful with their role use too.

Pom is high on my scum list, but I want her to check in first.

Can I ask why?

With this reasoning applied, this is why I am concerned with Porochaz's vote being on RichardGHP for practically all of Day One. And looking back on the vote counts, this reasoning applies almost equally well to Faraday (who actually had a more wagony vote), though I didn't notice that until just now. It feels to me that both of those votes were "ride it out" votes.

Wagony? I was voting him because I believed he was scum and saw no better candidate to change it to, I guess that's wagony, idk.

As for your earlier question, my suspicioun of Richard has considerably lessened as a result of Bv's flip. I think it seems unlikely that both are scum. I'll read back to be more sure, but gut says it's unlikely that it was 2 scum who were run up.

I'm sitting here refusing to feel pressured, even though a third of the players alive are voting for me first thing I see D2. Thanks for trying though.

This is an odd thing to post.

I would love to know how you feel that you are doing anything more than me, Espeonage. Yes, that was a question directed at you. You're jumping on a wagon without much of anything yourself. Ahh, hypocrasy at its best.

So you admit to lurking in plain sight?

Who else do you suspect?

I remember saying stuff about Espeonage yesterday but my head's all over the place atm.

also Patrick possible v/la for the next day or 2, i'm sick and may need doctor or more.

[Jahudo]

The hammer itself was pretty bad, considering you didn't give much reasoning and left yourself in a position were you didn't look like you were open to discussion.

So, yes.

This post would look genuine if it didn't come from you.
Richard, wouldn't you agree that you gave no reasoning to lynching BV besides self-preservation? Since you didn't acknowledge any of the BV case points, you put yourself in a position where you weren't open to discussion.

Take a look at Pomegranate and Richard's paths to voting BV:

POMEGRANATE
Post 346 - She agrees with the slip tell that BV assumed Papa Zito was town. She acknowledges how many times BV flip-flopped on his Richard-read. She says BV is one of her top 3 suspects.
Post 618 - She comments on BV's claim that he gets VT roles alot.
Post 847 - She considers hammering BV. No reason in the post.
Post 870 - She hammers BV.

RICHARD
Post 377 - Votes BV because no one is joining his Faraday wagon.
Post 433 - Says he's voting BV for self-preservation.
Post 814 - Votes BV. No reason in the post.
Post 828 - Tells BV to claim. No suspicion in the post.
Post 832 - Revotes BV because he isn't a power role.

[Anon]

I agree with this post.

Vote: Pomegranate.

[Anon]

I updated my list of people I would kill if I were a 5 shoy-dayvig

Pomegaranate
Espeonage
Nick
Sando
Faraday

Id be very surprised if Richard is scum. Besides my probtown read that Im fine with people not getting, his d1 wagon was full of shady people. I think thats the key there.

Seraphim obvtown, Javert is bothering me some. Javert, what are your opinions on the current things here, Pome, Espe, Nick?

[Pomegranate]

Vote: Espeonage

.

tl;dr: Espeonage is scum. Lynch him.

Can you explain a little further?

Well, how about you read therest of the post other than the tl;dr?

--

I'm sitting here refusing to feel pressured, even though a third of the players alive are voting for me first thing I see D2. Thanks for trying though.

This is an odd thing to post.

Yeah, I guess. I think I just wanted to prove a point, but I don't recall what it was.

I would love to know how you feel that you are doing anything more than me, Espeonage. Yes, that was a question directed at you. You're jumping on a wagon without much of anything yourself. Ahh, hypocrasy at its best.

So you admit to lurking in plain sight?

Who else do you suspect?

Kind of. I know I played yesterday terribly- I fell behind, a small wagon built on me before deadline, and I never had a chance to catch up. I hammered scum instead. So, I guess I did lurk some, but it was inactive-lack-of-time lurking. I'm trying to stay on top of the game today.

I mainly suspect Espeonage. Also Nick, ABR, and maybe boberz.

I also have a few town reads, but I don't want to share them.

[Anon]

Pomegranate, claim please.

[dybeck]

Vote: Espeonage

.

tl;dr: Espeonage is scum. Lynch him.

Can you explain a little further?

Well, how about you read therest of the post other than the tl;dr?

Maybe reverse psychology will work better...

Please continue to not make any meaningful contribution to the game. Do not, under any circumstances, elaborate on the reasons for your vote. And please, definitely, give no clearer indication as to why you've picked the suspects you have done as being scum.

[Ojanen]

I like all of the current vote targets, which is slightly worrying.
Farside, I remember you talking about some connection you saw between bv and Pom yesterday; could you remind me of the argument?

Just started some rereading due to the flip and need to finish that but first thing that popped to me: Nick's iso is recommended reading. He has about 8 posts after RVS so it takes about a minute.

Right in the end of D1 he switches the situation Richard-bv from 7-6 to 6-7. That's the only thing keeping me from being all over him right now, although I need to reread to see how the overall verbal momentum was at that point.
(the reasoning for that vote was amazing though:

[...]Games that start on Day are annoying. Who even came up with it?
Oh, and since it is SO SCUMMY to be voting for Richard...

Unvote, Vote: bv

)

Earlier on:
Wagons on Richard and bv are 5-5, a bv wagon is rising for the first time, votes Richard:

Bv...I'm not sure. I mean, the flip flopping is definitely scummy, but then he only really voted after pressure all around from people thought his noncommitement was scummy and those on the Richard wagon, a little bit.

Richard's last post reeks of desperation and kinda looks like an attempt to look town, but I think his vote for farside after him saying that he thinks a town farside would post like that is a bit weird.

I'll read over the thread again after I finish up this homework I have, but for now:

Unvote: Pomegranate, Vote: RichardGHP

So picks Richard at that wagon stage, the reason for the vote was a fabrication, it never happened at all, and he holds on to it for 10 days.
Note the part after "but then he only really voted after pressure" on the bv comment. The part is confusing but clearly implies to me he thinks it's not scummy due to the "x is scummy, but then y" structure.
Reply to Jahudo later about Richard:

@Nick: If you're keeping your vote on Richard, can you elaborate on the things you mentioned? Why is the vote on farside weird? Was his voting after being under pressure a strong or weak tell for him being town or scum?

Voting under pressure, to me, is a weak tell either way you look at it, but I think it'd be more of a scum tell. A townie has nothing to prove, but a mafioso wants to 'prove' that he isn't scum, so they are more likely to follow orders. Just my experience, though.

If I understand this correctly, this is a whopping double-standard involving a flipped scum.
Also, about the vote Richard post, I had this thing that I identified as a new player in myself that I when I was scum, I had a powerful urge to add the fluff word "somewhat" all over the place. Also to use the word "questionable" instead of scummy all the time. I changed that up etc. but all the "a little bit" fluff is rampant in Nick's post.
Oh and there's also

And, in my opinion and my experience, player's like ABR aren't scum, they're just annoying.

They'll probably be killed by a vig first night just so they don't accidentally pick off a useful townie because of a false read. Still, he shouldn't really be listened to because he's just screwing with people for fun.

Okay, I cna't find the post, but I know farside asked me who was scummy, so...

I think both Richard and Albert are scummy.

Albert is just dicking around, making inane posts, either he's scum or just doing it to be a douchebag.
And Richard...I suspect him, because when has he even acted pro-town?

---

Preview edit: Yeah, Pom, I definitively also want to hear why Esp is scum to you.

[NickF227]

Day 2?

Oh, just fyi, the only access to the net on Monday and Tuesday is my Droid Eris, I'm going on a trip for a high school thing. FBLA states. Big fun.

I want to see if Pom claims before I vote, and I'm gonna read over the end of Day 1, really didn't look at it too much.

[Ojanen]

Any comment on my post, Nick?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Hey Ojanen, don't you want to know why Pom suspects me too?

[Ojanen]

Why not. But you're pretty much a lightning rod in games, whether you're in your hyper or apathetic mode, and a part of that is that a collective murmur of suspicion is the standard. Have you played with her, btw?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I hardly remember anyone I played with recently, consider yourself lucky.

[RichardGHP]

The hammer itself was pretty bad, considering you didn't give much reasoning and left yourself in a position were you didn't look like you were open to discussion.

So, yes.

This post would look genuine if it didn't come from you.
Richard, wouldn't you agree that you gave no reasoning to lynching BV besides self-preservation?

Jesus, what else did you expect me to do, vote for myself?

I also have a few town reads, but I don't want to share them.

Go on, you know you want to! Give us your buddies while you're at it! Oh and claiming might be a good idea.

[NickF227]

Any comment on my post, Nick?

tl;dr

[Ojanen]

...charming.

vote: Nick

So what did you conclude from your reread of late D1 and why should Pom claim at L-3 before you might consider voting?

[Pomegranate]

Hey Ojanen, don't you want to know why Pom suspects me too?

Let me say that I don't suspect you much more than most people. But you frustrate me a lot- it's hard for me to work with players with your type of playstyle- I'm not used to it. It's hard for me to get a read on you. And the way that you're all excited to ride my wagon today- it seems like possibley excited scum ready to ride an easy town wagon.

Anon has asked me to claim, and Nick and Richard mentioned it in their posts. I would like to hear from more players though(, 'specially ones I have a good read on).

Working on explaianing my opinion on Espe now.

[Ojanen]

The hammer itself was pretty bad, considering you didn't give much reasoning and left yourself in a position were you didn't look like you were open to discussion.
So, yes.

This post would look genuine if it didn't come from you.
Richard, wouldn't you agree that you gave no reasoning to lynching BV besides self-preservation?

Jesus, what else did you expect me to do, vote for myself?

So what's the deal with Pom's self-preservation being scummy to you?

[Pomegranate]

Ojanen, do you find me scummy?

[Anon]

Hey Ojanen, don't you want to know why Pom suspects me too?

Let me say that I don't suspect you much more than most people. But you frustrate me a lot- it's hard for me to work with players with your type of playstyle- I'm not used to it. It's hard for me to get a read on you. And the way that you're all excited to ride my wagon today- it seems like possibley excited scum ready to ride an easy town wagon.

Anon has asked me to claim, and Nick and Richard mentioned it in their posts. I would like to hear from more players though(, 'specially ones I have a good read on).

Working on explaianing my opinion on Espe now.

CLAIM.

[Amished]

@Pom: The only thing that gave me pause before voting you now was how easily the wagon grew today. I need to be able to spend more time looking at today but just going off my feelings yesterday I'd say claim.

Also, your reaction to ABR who was a pretty constant supporter of your lynch yesterday as somebody who wants to ride out your death to a town lynch couldn't be further from the truth and pretty blatantly misremembering the facts which aren't that confusing.

Vote: Pomegranate

[Pomegranate]

Espeonage has made 38 posts this game. Let's look at them:

NOTE: This was

not

meant to be a PBPA. But I think it turned into one.

Espe starts off with a healthy dose of RVS (but I guess that we all did). Then he makes a couple of quick votes (9,10) that lack more than one line of reasoning, and agree's with MME that scum could hind behind the Richard wagon (11).

When questioned he expands on his most recent vote saying that it doesn't have content. What bothers me is that Espe hasn't provided much of anything yet hiself (12).

Then the weird PZ=vig comment (13). Okaaay. Espe's next post consist of nothing but a smiley (14), as a response to a comment about 12. I don't know how much content is packed into the smiley, but it doesn't seem like much.

He explains that 12 was a joke (15), with one other line devoted to useless semantics. He's now wasted three posts on the stupid comment.

Espe attacks someone's wording for the reason for his vote (16) which is stupid, because his wording is very similar.

A few useless posts about wagons (17, 18, 19), and how it's best to vote whichever of your suspects has the biggest wagon. Or at least I think that's what he's saying.

He decides to vote bv after rereading (20, 21), but doesn't explain more than "To many sus things here." This is fairly obvious wagon-jumping for wagon-jumping's sake on its own.

Explain's that he wasn't wagon jumping, but agreed with everyone on the wagon (23), but

he still doesn't say what that it

.

Announces that he was prodded, and that he's back (24, 25).

Tries to explain his reason for his previous vote (on Anon), saying that Anon "had no good reasoning" (26). Pot, kettle, etc.

Espe sets himself up to jump on the Richard wagon if necessary (28):

Esp, opinion on Richard?
bv, did you make a conscious decision to be more defined in your stances after you got wagoned?

His absence under pressure speaks to me that the case on him might hold a bit more water than it does on face value. However I am happy with my vote right now.

Says that Nick has to post more and that ABR hasn't posted much content (32, 33). Pot and kettle, yelling at each other AGAIN. Urggh.

Response to prod (34).

D2---

Espe conveniently decides that he liks my wagon in one line and votes me (35), despite having never mentioned me before in the game. How convenien; another wagon successfully hopped.

Espe's longest post of the game (36)! Sadly, the only concrete thing in this pile of garbage is one line saing tat I'm lurking, and that the rest of the case has been laid out and that he agrees with it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Espe jumped on the bv wagon with one line of reasoning.
He set himself up to jump on the richard wagon if necessary saying that the case might hold water. But he never explained why.
He jumped on my wagon despite not having suspected me, with one line of explanation. When pushed, he said that "the rest of the case has already been stated".

So,

#1: ESPE JUMPS WAGONS CONVENIENTLY WITHOUT EXPLAINING HIMSELF.

and

#2: ESPE LURKS (he's gone for days, then shows up saying 'ohai I was prodded any questions yeah I like all the wagons'.)

[Amished]

EBWOP: Nick and dybeck should still die.

[Pomegranate]

Hey Ojanen, don't you want to know why Pom suspects me too?

Let me say that I don't suspect you much more than most people. But you frustrate me a lot- it's hard for me to work with players with your type of playstyle- I'm not used to it. It's hard for me to get a read on you. And the way that you're all excited to ride my wagon today- it seems like possibley excited scum ready to ride an easy town wagon.

Anon has asked me to claim, and Nick and Richard mentioned it in their posts. I would like to hear from more players though(, 'specially ones I have a good read on).

Working on explaianing my opinion on Espe now.

CLAIM.

You already gave

your

opinion on the matter. I'm waiting for one or two others, maybe.