Mini 934 - Troubles at Smiths&Catharts (Game Over!)

[Sotty7]

I have no issues with claiming gun/no gun, but if we're gonna do it we should starts ASAP. The deadline is coming up.

I am finding myself agreeing a lot with Fate on this page. Especially with his post about charter. His lurking is ridiculous and I would be very happy to lynch him at this point, but I think we might have to wait until tomorrow to deal with him. I'm starting to think my frustration with Fate pushing a case on Copper might have been blinding me as far as that player slot goes. He is putting in a lot of effort and seems to be digging in the game to work things out.

I don't really like the push on Pie. I'm not seeing the trouble with what he said about SK like other people are. SK is still stalling I want to see his ISO work, I want to see some cases or solid opinions on people and we're just not getting that.

unvote, Vote:SK

The two people I'd like to see hang today are SK and charter. Everyone else is too tightly bundled together in my reads.

PREVIEW EDIT: Socrates, I don't like that the deadline is coming up and we still don't have a reaction from charter after my claim on Copper. It could be that he is legit busy but it feels a little too convenient. Is there something about Fate's post on charter you don't like outside the whole, "going after a lurker" thing?

[Pie_is_good]

The quote was "A Kerrigan lynch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world," and it was my way of weighing in on the emerging Kerrigan bandwagon.

The quote continued with (paraphrasing) 'not for lurkitude but for other reasons.'

You then admitted 'other reasons' were weak.

Why was a Kerrigan lynch 'not the worst thing?'

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: the Buffalo Chicken Sandwich is quite possibly the pinnacle of American Civilization. The sandwich shop down the street is having a sale weekend, which means that I've been ordering even more Buffalo Chicken Sandwiches than usual (if possible). People frequently underestimate how tricky it is to make the perfect Buffalo Chicken Sandwich. You need enough Buffalo hot sauce that each bite is like getting punched in the mouth with an explosion of flavor, yet you need to mix it with enough ranch dressing that your mouth gets cooled back down and your taste buds are ready to enjoy the shock that is the next bite. I don't know how they did it, but I swear these guys have perfected the ratio.

[charter]

Charter-Consistent suspicions of Copper, not much else. Charter, Sotty pointed this out, but is it true you still haven't read through D1 and analyzed it? You haven't said about other players.

I started from where Ythan was replaced. I didn't read before that, and I'm not going to. I tried starting at the beginning, but I only got a few pages in before the only thing I could think of was Ythan had me wanting to lynch him on site.

I am not liking how both charter and now Fate have clearly missrepped me. Thor also did this, but I'm feeling more a genuine mistake. I really want a Fate lynch at this point. charter is a likely buddy.

I did misrep you, but it was a mistake. I don't think a really obvious mistake like that is scummy of me. Criticize me for being paranoid, but a clearly verifiable fact that I had wrong isn't something I could hope to try and get away with. I had just remembered the game wrong. Why am I a likely buddy for Fate? Because I keep coming up with reasons not to vote him? I think that my top two suspects voting Fate is a pretty good reason for my hesitations.

Okay enough of this. I'm a gunsmith and I looked at Copper last night. He doesn't have a gun.

Ok,

unvote

.

Unvote: Copper
Vote: Socrates

Do you think that Socrates is scummy independent of Copper? I kind of thought from before you thought that they were scumbuddies, which now only makes sense to entertain if Sotty is revealed as scum first.

Haven't had time to do any catching up, except on Charter, and my conclusion on the analysis of Charter's slot is that Inquisitor JL didn't do anything to set off my scumdar, and Charter has done some things I agree with, some things I disagree with, and nothing that overall makes me feel particularly inclined to lynch him.

Ummm, so what exactly did you agree and disagree with? I can say I agree and disagree with anyone's posts and it leaves it really open to changing your mind later.

Upon a re-read I now see it likely that Charter was piggy backing on my reasonings against Copper/Sotty. I can see a Soc/Charter/Pie team.

You're joking, right? I was suspicious of Copper since before you were in the game and my reasons for suspecting Sotty weren't real.

As if to scold my vote on Copper (if the Copper lynch went through he could point to my vote as weakest D3). Later in that post he goes on to say I look "pretty good" with my posts on that page. Slight buddying, egging on a town on town fight (me and Copper)?

Yeah, I was scolding your vote because that's all that was in the post. When I got to the next page and saw your reasoning, I thought there were good points there. Just voting to bandwagon like you said in your post was pretty suspect.

Thats a nice useless fluff post. Oh and pushing an imaginary PL while you're at it. Awesome.

Someone asked for my opinion on Ythan, so I was giving it.

I like Fate's points on charter as they make a lot of sense.

What points of his do you like? I thought they were all pretty terrible.

Going to

vote Fate

His claims that I've followed his suspicions on Socrates and Copper are just plain wrong. I'd been voicing suspicion of them since before he was in the game and my reasons were different than his.

After Sotty claims, he completely shifts all his reasons for his suspicions so he can put a vote back on Socrates. His post looks like an excuse to put down a vote.

He keeps shifting his reasons for suspecting Socrates every time someone points out flaws in them. It's like he's constantly searching for a reason that people will accept, not that he's actually trying to find scum.

In other news, I would do a massclaim or massgunclaim. Other than Fate, I'm highly suspicious of Pie. I was suspicious of Kthx (though I don't even remember why now) and I get the impression Pie is blowing a bunch of smoke with the massclaim idea rather than looking for scum. The only real opinions I've gleaned from him are he thinks Thor is town and that he supports the Kerrigan wagon but isn't voting for it. I get the impression he's waiting until the last possible moment before he votes since there will be less accountability then.

[charter]

I don't have a gun.

[Pie_is_good]

a) I *do* feel like I've done a not-unreasonable amount of scumhunting given 3 pages to work with, most of which I spent defending myself.

b) Popcorn someone.

[charter]

You go.

When are you planning on voting?

[SaintKerrigan]

First of all, Lynch all Liars exists for a reason. If we decide to massclaim gun or no gun, town definately shouldn't lie. The main reason for this claim would be to force scum to take a stance now: are they going to claim they have a gun, making some future fakeclaims impossible? Or are they going to claim they don't have a gun, and risk being outed by Sotty?

Secondly, where are you getting the idea that town would have to explain why they have a gun immediately? The whole idea of claiming gun or no gun is that we don't have to claim actual roles, and therefore are able to keep scum doubting about the type of role the player claiming gun actually has. That can vary from pure vigilante who failed to kill last night for some reason, to what effectively boils down to a miller.

Furthermore, if townplayers who own a gun claim so now, they avoid Sotty the trouble of having to investigate them. Sotty would be able to focus on actually detecting the liars. If she would receive a gun result on someone who claimed not to have a gun, that player would be guaranteed scum.

I concede...your points are valid. I'll go along with a gunclaim.

Since Charter seems to have started us off and there is no longer any serious opposition to the gunclaim strategy, let's have Charter name the next person to gunclaim and we'll proceed popcorn style. Sound good, people?

In other news, I am trudging my way through the ISO's, and will have them done in time to cast a vote.

@ Charter: I'll present what I agree/disagree with regarding your points when I post your ISO.

[SaintKerrigan]

Ninja'd re: the popcorn gunclaim.

[Pie_is_good]

No gun.

Once I'm done with the reread.

Socrates go.

[SaintKerrigan]

Also, just so people don't misunderstand me, I am aware that there are other questions posed to me. I'll answer them when I'm finished with the ISOs.

[Socrates]

I don't really like the push on Pie. I'm not seeing the trouble with what he said about SK like other people are. SK is still stalling I want to see his ISO work, I want to see some cases or solid opinions on people and we're just not getting that.

TBH I don't get Thor's attack on Pie either, but thats not why I am voting him, and I don't believe that is why Mitchel is voting for him.

I have a thought about SK and if he does what I expect him to do you won't be seeing me vote him any time soon.

PREVIEW EDIT: Socrates, I don't like that the deadline is coming up and we still don't have a reaction from charter after my claim on Copper. It could be that he is legit busy but it feels a little too convenient. Is there something about Fate's post on charter you don't like outside the whole, "going after a lurker" thing?

I think his case is crap. Its one of those things where he assumes an anti-town motivation to everything Charter did but in no way explains why that interpretation is more likely than anything else. The only reason for it not to be torn apart completely is because Charter isn't around to call him on his shit. (Note: I went and ate halfway through writing this post and Charter posted during the interim, So.)

Speaking of Fate,

I don't have a gun. Fate goes next.

[Thor665]

I don't really like the push on Pie. I'm not seeing the trouble with what he said about SK like other people are. SK is still stalling I want to see his ISO work, I want to see some cases or solid opinions on people and we're just not getting that.

TBH I don't get Thor's attack on Pie either, but thats not why I am voting him, and I don't believe that is why Mitchel is voting for him.

Thor's attack on Pie is helping Thor get reads on Pie because the Pie is not being the most forthcoming of players.

What points of his do you like? I thought they were all pretty terrible.

His analysis of you Day 1 is fairly accurate in my opinion and is making me reassess certain thoughts I had about you.

I also thought he had scored a solid one with your Ythan lynch commentary because I recalled even at the time you made it I wondered why you were being so vehement about it at a point where the player and the problem were long gone. Your subsequent defense of it in your response post makes sense. Clearly it is intrinsic upon me to go back and look at that stuff again and see what my read is.

[Fate]

Will respond to Charter's post when I have more time.

No gun, Charter go.

[SaintKerrigan]

Charter already went, Fate. Who's your next pick?

[charter]

What points of his do you like? I thought they were all pretty terrible.

His analysis of you Day 1 is fairly accurate in my opinion and is making me reassess certain thoughts I had about you.

I also thought he had scored a solid one with your Ythan lynch commentary because I recalled even at the time you made it I wondered why you were being so vehement about it at a point where the player and the problem were long gone. Your subsequent defense of it in your response post makes sense. Clearly it is intrinsic upon me to go back and look at that stuff again and see what my read is.

He didn't analyze any of my play. It was mostly an IIOA summary of my posts. He draws some wrong conclusions from my posts from day two as well, which I refuted in my last post. Copper asked if I thought Ythan was active lurking.

[Fate]

#901 might just be the fluffiest post of D2, but he makes no attempt to hide that fact. So to that I say, "that's nice, catch up please."

Oh charter claimed, skimming is bad kids. SK was my first choice, now that I see he just said "I'll go along with the gunclaim" and actually didn't claim.

Charter-Consistent suspicions of Copper, not much else. Charter, Sotty pointed this out, but is it true you still haven't read through D1 and analyzed it? You haven't said about other players.

I started from where Ythan was replaced. I didn't read before that, and I'm not going to. I tried starting at the beginning, but I only got a few pages in before the only thing I could think of was Ythan had me wanting to lynch him on site.

Frustration of Ythan's play=Nulltell (I'm a fan ftr, except the 20page D1 part). Continuing to try and paint that slot as scummy without mentioning Kthx or Pie?
Scummy.

You're joking, right? I was suspicious of Copper since before you were in the game and my reasons for suspecting Sotty weren't real.

Sure, but you took my side on the whole debate of me vs Copper/Sotty, while voting Socrates, not Copper. If you had started out the day with your suspicions on Copper I could have seen you're consistent "town" train thought. However you came in, saw the replacement had voted TCC's slot, and rode on that wagon with me while egging a town on town fight.

Also I never really say you being "suspicious" of TCC. You switched off him, without any real reasoning of "oh Socrates makes me feel better about that slot" or anything. You just responded to Sotty/Copper, and then switched to Copper a little later on after finding his arguments scummy (the fact that he assumes TCC is town.) Wouldn't the best wagon to be on be TCC's flip and then examine Copper's defense of it?

Yeah, I was scolding your vote because that's all that was in the post. When I got to the next page and saw your reasoning, I thought there were good points there. Just voting to bandwagon like you said in your post was pretty suspect.

Fair point, but I don't think bandwagons are always suspect. Especially if I had reason to suspect Copper and I wanted a BW opposing mine.

Going to

vote Fate

His claims that I've followed his suspicions on Socrates and Copper are just plain wrong. I'd been voicing suspicion of them since before he was in the game and my reasons were different than his.

After Sotty claims, he completely shifts all his reasons for his suspicions so he can put a vote back on Socrates. His post looks like an excuse to put down a vote.

He keeps shifting his reasons for suspecting Socrates every time someone points out flaws in them. It's like he's constantly searching for a reason that people will accept, not that he's actually trying to find scum.

Yeah Sotty claims and two innocents basically came forward. Of course I changed my suspicions, why didn't you? Are you going to point out evidence of my reasons for suspecting Socrates? I don't see where I've changed them, as Socrates hasn't even changed his play. The only thing I changed was thinking Socrates was buddying up to Sotty/Copper when I learned those two were town.

In other news, I would do a massclaim or massgunclaim. Other than Fate, I'm highly suspicious of Pie. I was suspicious of Kthx (though I don't even remember why now) and I get the impression Pie is blowing a bunch of smoke with the massclaim idea rather than looking for scum. The only real opinions I've gleaned from him are he thinks Thor is town and that he supports the Kerrigan wagon but isn't voting for it. I get the impression he's waiting until the last possible moment before he votes since there will be less accountability then.

Oh here you are. Now, are YOU joking? You don't remember why you were suspicious of Kthx? Also why would scum (besides it being part of pie's "meta" and him to be expected to do it) push a plan that will likely backfire on them/narrow their options? Also SK is waiting to vote as well, yet you don't mention this. I can see you two as buddies easy.

In other news I hope SK has a reason for wanting to gauge Copper's reaction. Though Charter is raising the scumbar for me to keep my vote on SK.

[charter]

Frustration of Ythan's play=Nulltell (I'm a fan ftr, except the 20page D1 part). Continuing to try and paint that slot as scummy without mentioning Kthx or Pie?
Scummy.

I never said Ythan was scummy, so I don't know where you're getting that from. I did talk about Pie and Kthx. Maybe go back and recheck my posts.

Sure, but you took my side on the whole debate of me vs Copper/Sotty, while voting Socrates, not Copper. If you had started out the day with your suspicions on Copper I could have seen you're consistent "town" train thought. However you came in, saw the replacement had voted TCC's slot, and rode on that wagon with me while egging a town on town fight.

No. You're having serious delusions here. You voting Socrates had no bearing on me voting him. Plus, I'm pretty sure you just committed a massive scumslip, with your (bad) accusation of me egging on a town on town fight, which would be you and Socrates. You've been voting Socrates all over the place today, but you just called him town. Good try scum.


If this slipup doesn't convince everyone you're full of it, I'll bother with refuting the rest of your post, but I don't want this gold mine to get lost in a big post.

[Thor665]

#901 might just be the fluffiest post of D2, but he makes no attempt to hide that fact. So to that I say, "that's nice, catch up please."

Though I am not fond of Pie's #901 it is a "legitimate" response to my accusations because he's continuing with his ridiculous standpoint and is choosing to dismiss my accusation by spouting a non-sequitur.

Though you may or may not agree with his method, it is unfair to suggest this is a fluff post. It is a response to an active question upon him.

[Thor665]

EBWOP - "ridiculous standpoint" is meant to imply his defense against my accusation wherein he call it ridiculous.

[SaintKerrigan]

I have a gun.

I want Thor to claim next.

[Thor665]

I have no gun.

Let's see, left between Cyberbob and Michel, eh?

Cyberbob I choose you.

[Cyberbob]

Commencing my read from the start of Day 2 now.

As for my claim, I do not have a gun.

[Copper]

My reluctance stems from not wanting to make a misinformed vote. Sure, I could've voted Michel if I really wanted to, but not only had I not completely read up on his player slot yet, but the questions I did pose to him weren't nearly strong enough reasons to vote him.

This is such a cop out. If you think someone is scummy, then you make a statement. I appreciate you wanting to look through the entire game for specific details, but that doesn't excuse you from voting. If you had voted him, hypothetically, and went back and found a RayFrost post that made you reconsider your position, then why not just tell us that you've changed your mind after closer examination of Michel's ISO? I mean, I just don't get it. As if it's a cherry on the top, you tell me, again, that you don't have strong enough reasons to vote. I guess you just don't have strong enough reasons to vote anyone.

So why am I even on your suspect list, much less near the top?

Why wouldn't you be? I mean, someone has to be scum in this game. Pie's will say it isn't him. He's may take the position to say that Sotty and I aren't either. The playing field is getting awfully slim at that point. I don't think he should just write you off his suspect list for the heck of it.

It's using flavour argumentation in a normal game, but given that we are in a gun factory, I believe it's far more likely if the scum actually have guns then knives or poison, for example. And not everyone who owns a gun uses it to kill every night. I think you'll see a number of "gun" claims.

That's a good point. I can buy that.

I do like Fate's post 889.

Your play has been scummy thus far. I always make it a point when I replace in to read the whole game, make posts as I catch up, or one huge one based off the whole game. Why have you been putting hits off?

Bingo. SK is using it as a crutch at this point. He's withholding his vote until he reads over the game to his satisfaction, yet he's able to construct walls in the interim arguing against massclaiming and Pie's suspicions.

I have a gun.

RayFrost had a gun and he didn't use it? Hm.

Unvote

for now. I have a feeling this is an important point in the game that I'm going to need to discuss with the other heads. Copper will have a vote down before the deadline. I'm thinking it's increasingly looking like the lynch will be between SK, Pie, and Fate at this point, but we'll see. I personally would favor SK or Pie out of those three, but I don't think it's unbelievable that Socrates or charter would get a last minute surge.

[MichelSableheart]

Sotty and Copper already claimed, so that just leaves me.

I do have a gun.

Haven't got time for more at the moment, unfortunately.

[Pie_is_good]

I reread the last few days. I think SK has responded well to (very mild) pressure and would be willing to look elsewhere. Thor is town but incompetent. A Fate lynch wouldn't be awful.

#901 might just be the fluffiest post of D2, but he makes no attempt to hide that fact. So to that I say, "that's nice, catch up please."

I mean, don't get me wrong - I completely understand where you're coming from here - but my main issue is that every now and then, when I ask them to hold the onions (because onions and hot sauce serve the same function in the sandwich and I obviously can't get rid of the hot sauce) every now and then they get rid of the carrots, too. I mean why would you get rid of the carrots? I like it when you sink your teeth into the soft warm bun and feel the slight crunch and aren't immediately sure whether or not you hit chicken. That way, if it's carrot, it's like a false alarm, but when it's chicken it's all the better because you're like "man, it would have sucked if that were carrot." Carrot is a highly underrated ingredient, and the (usual) inclusion of carrot is one of those things that separates my local sandwich shop from the rest.