Newbie 940 - Game over

[Thor665]

TL:DR

silverbullet is scummy and is trying to hide it behind false emotions.
hiphop asks odd scumhunt/experience questions - what's up with that?
Nachomamma is obv. lurker.
silverbullet is scummier to me then [no].
Die's 2 experienced players on the mafia team idea is silly, but I want aspects considered and want to know what he'll do about it.


============================================

Well I wanted to know your reasons as to why you believed no left... and you told me... so... that's why i'm glad.

My reasons were already out there (not believing replacing out is scummy) and also my deduction is still disagreeing with yours. This looks like you're trying to go the friendly route now that the angry route didn't work so much for you.

Could you elaborate more as to my appeasing nature?

See above. I see you doing multiple moments of this sort of action - saying nice things over stuff that there is really no reason to be nice over. You also did it earlier when Aurorus was pressuring you, basically shrugging and mentioning that you were joking with promises to get more serious and involved.

Could you make a prediction as to who you think will end up being lynched on day 1?

What would this accomplish? Within the course of a week it is amazing sometimes to see how much vote wagons can shift and move within the span of a few hours. I predict a 1/3 chance we shall lynch scum, and a 2/3 chance we shall lynch town/power role.

i do have to say that pulindar took it quite well.

Did you consider this a test for a scummy reaction? What about it did he 'take well'?

Sorry for the absesne, but my internet's out at the house.

Limited Acess for the next couple of days or so.

Obvious lurker is obvious

*Thor - it seems you think that SB is giving you scum-tells than a newb-tells; what has he done, that [no] hasn't, to convince you of this?

Good question.

I will open with a stated belief that [no] is pretty scummy, and though I was questioning his newbishness I was also voting him for reasons thereof. So take the following defense with that in mind;

Well, for starters, he has actually done some stuff I feel is scummy. [no] did one thing (the vote) and then had people explode on him. He also clearly had some language barrier issues which didn't serve him well as people got into lengthy debates with him and tried to point to his fumbling as scum tells (yeah, he was fumbling...as he wrote in his 2nd language, brilliant observation)

So he absorbs a lot of early heat for a relatively minor scumtell (that I feel was actually perfectly defended when he posted up his previous game).

silverbullet, meanwhile, sort of feels scummy to me. His angry explosion at me (where he includes requests not to have me use l33t speak at him...and then uses l33t speak at me) speaks a bit to me of someone who was maybe not so much angry as they were nervous of being caught. He then quickly calms down and becomes Mr. Agreeable as he talks with and compliments me. Again, this leaves me uneasy as regards him because it feels as though all of these actions are built towards getting me off his back.

I've also played a couple newbie/regular games before where the 'why aren't you scumhunting' charge has been leveled at players. Usually the answer of town players is to say 'I am scumhunting' and to offer examples. It rung as slightly false to me how quickly silverbullet folded on that accusation.

Am I 100% on silverbullet? Definitely not.
Do I think he's one of the scummiest players thus far? Yes.

How about a third option? I see half of the players here are, in some way, more experienced than the others. You guys have been nice ICs for us, but at the same time you guys have been quite agressive on 2 newbies. Easy targets.

Even if this is true it can only really apply to Pulindar and myself since Nacho and hiphop were not participating at that time.

It would be good to start considering this 3rd option: we can have 2 experienced players in the mafia.

Though I do not think it is reasonable to presume both Mafia are experienced at this time, I otherwise like that you desire to suspect the experienced players. What are you planning to do with this thought?

[Thor665]

YOU STUPID SMURFING SMURF I'VE EXPLAINED THIS MULTIPLE TIMES ALREADY

You are almost undoubtedly pushing the barrier or 'reasonable foul language' the board allows. I would suggest you tamp it back. If the game makes you this angry with the way hiphop came at you, you'll probably not enjoy the games here.

ANSWER THOR'S QUESTIONS THAT HE SHOT AT YOU AWHILE BACK.

He did, actually. (though now he has a brand new shiny one.

@silverbullet - how scummy do you find lurking? Your use of it as a pejorative suggests a certain disdain for it.

[silverbullet999]

Also on the subject of contradictions...

The first sentence I just addressed. Wow, I can't believe he just said that. Contradiction it is. Tell me SB, you can practice with this one, what is wrong with the bolded? Here is my opinion. You have decided on a lynch, and you comment that the deadline is far away. Here is some newbie advice. If everybody did what you just did, there would be zip dicussion. Why? because everybody already has their lynch set. We would lose 2 weeks of info? Do you really want something like that to happen? I made one post and you already decided [no] is the lynch. OK. Good Job. Do you want anymore sarcasm? You know what? The rest of the day may shred info, yet you want the lynch. Do you think it is right that some people try so hard to find scumtells, why others have already thrown in the towel. If you are not going to scumhunt, than if you are not scum already than you might as well as be. Certaintly would not want you in lylo. I already have my vote so here you go fos. I refuse to take my vote off of someone who has yet to respond to a case i laid down. Lastly you dive head first into wifom Let's say die was scum and he killed me. Why? i was pressuring him to hard, but let's say he was not scum and i was still killed. Obviously scum wanted us to think die is scum. Get it?

This paragraph more or less states I am being way to aggressive.

I'm a noob, I don't want to shoot the gun before everyone put their opinion in, I wanted to see if everyone else was in agreement with it or not.
So you wanted to follow the town and go with the flow? Nice. Easiest scum tell in the book. i can tell you didn't want to put your neck on the line for town, and spread your opinion. You got one thing right you are a noob. And i am leaning noob scum.


silverbullet999 wrote:
If you mean I've been sitting quietly in the background doing nothing... I will have to disagree with you there and would frankly be a little frustrated with that implication. I have made my presence and opinion known and have also answered any questions that were asked of me. If my answers don't enable you to get a read on me, i apologize and don't know what else to say. As I said to lemon, feel free to ask me any other questions that you feel would give you a better read. But don't suspect me for being somewhat indecisive and not on a full blown attack on anyone.
Ditto. Yeah, what he said. By the way that style never works. It is so anti-town. Fence sitting? Ha! wish I could do that as scum?

and here you more or less say I'm trying to stay in the shadows and go with the flow and not get much attention on me.

Please answer which one you really mean.

[silverbullet999]

My reasons were already out there (not believing replacing out is scummy) and also my deduction is still disagreeing with yours. This looks like you're trying to go the friendly route now that the angry route didn't work so much for you.

I'd rather be civil with you as you've asked reasonable questions... don't mistake that as trying to buddy up.

You are almost undoubtedly pushing the barrier or 'reasonable foul language' the board allows. I would suggest you tamp it back. If the game makes you this angry with the way hiphop came at you, you'll probably not enjoy the games here.

Ah... oops? That will be noted... though as I said before the anger is a nice experience and again I am fully enjoying the game. (I could go deeper into explaining this if you like)

(Also could I put smurf instead of legit curses and it's ok?)

He did, actually. (though now he has a brand new shiny one.

Ah i didn't notice it as i quickly glanced over hip's first post, my apologies.

how scummy do you find lurking? Your use of it as a pejorative suggests a certain disdain for it.

Lurking, just like replacing can be done for multiple reasons. It's an ideal spot for scum as they don't risk much in tells. What annoyed me was the lack of knowledge in his attack as he states i'm being too aggressive and then also lurking upon which i let him have a piece of my mind.

[AurorusVox]

This sudden outburst of CAPITAL ANGER is uncalled for, and I can certainly see why Thor thinks it's false. It really looks like someone's doing a bit of acting there. Notice how earlier he asked if cussing/getting angry was allowed --- and then, out of the blue, gets really angry...

The reason I was leaning to you being townie, SB, was your calm and mature responses to the questions - "I'm happy to answer any questions you have, whatever will help clear anything up about me" - even when you were pressed by Thor, you maintained this reaction. But...wow...that changed pretty dramatically, eh?

Sauron, hi, nice to have you here; when you're back for your larger post, do you think you could try to answer the questions I asked of [no] to the best of your ability, i.e. in ways in which are still relevant to you? If you'd like me to reformulate them specifically for you, I'm happy to do so

Also, Pulindar, I feel like I want to ask you a question. What do you make of hiphop's two posts so far and their capacity to stir up virulent responses?

[silverbullet999]

This sudden outburst of CAPITAL ANGER is uncalled for, and I can certainly see why Thor thinks it's false. It really looks like someone's doing a bit of acting there. Notice how earlier he asked if cussing/getting angry was allowed --- and then, out of the blue, gets really angry...

As for the first part, there's a method i'm going for that I'd rather not reveal... if you want to know though keep asking and i will tell you.

The reason I asked if it was allowed was because I wouldn't have done it if it was against the rules.

Out of the blue though? No, I asked if it was allowed and shortly after I get "attacked" by hiphop, an "attack" that I feel was unknowledgeable (through a lack of him reading the posts fully) and quite unneeded.

[Thor665]

As for the first part, there's a method i'm going for that I'd rather not reveal...

If you feel your method will help you catch scum, more power to you, just be aware that some scumhunting methods look scummy.

In the meantime I would like to point out that silverbullet basically just admitted I was correct in reading his angry outbursts as a put on front of emotion. I would like everyone to acknowledge my brilliance at this point. Cookies are always appreciated.

@Jerako - what is your read on [no] replacing out? Also, how do you feel about my stated attitude of it not being that impressive to catch a English as second language player in word traps?

[AurorusVox]

[useless post] *gives cookie*

I also want a cookie [/useless post]

[silverbullet999]

In the meantime I would like to point out that silverbullet basically just admitted I was correct in reading his angry outbursts as a put on front of emotion. I would like everyone to acknowledge my brilliance at this point. Cookies are always appreciated.

@Thor I'm not entirely sure what you mean when saying this. My replies with you have been authentic... it does annoy me when anyone puts words in my mouth (at least what i initially thought, I cooled down when everything was clarified, thus my "light-heartedness", would have i replied in an angrier outburst with you had i known i could cuss? probably not), and I have a feeling I'll keep getting questioned about the anger outburst with hiph0p (prevent ctrl f?) so I'll reveal it (under this hopefully long enough post so that he ends up skimming it and missing it until it's too late) My hope is to get into a heated argument with hiph0p, and perhaps him slipping some things out in his true rage. I find it a bit random and suspicious the way he just attacked me and seemed to try to start a bandwagon on me (granted he didn't place a vote on me). Maybe his quick glance of my posts made him feel this way... maybe he was egged on by a partner that may/may not be attacking me to join in to try to get me lynched.

I'll give you a cookie, but it's going to be a burnt cookie...

[AurorusVox]

SB, either you anger was legitimate, or it was put on (=a method of scumhunting). I don't think you can say its authentic, and also say there was a purpose to it.

[silverbullet999]

SB, either you anger was legitimate, or it was put on (=a method of scumhunting). I don't think you can say its authentic, and also say there was a purpose to it.

my anger which i would label slight... with thor in the one post was legit. with the post toward hiph0p was much more dramatic and a put on... the results of which we won't see..

[Pulindar]

Ugh, alot of posts since I was last on... oh well, better than having no activity. Let's see what's going on. ok, my last post was on page 7, and I hadn't really done much about the posts between it and my second last so I guess I need to go over even more than I first thought. We'll do it by person though I'll be reading comments and adding stuff in order of posts.

Sauron

First off, I'd like to say it's nice to meet you.

Anyway, I'll be doing a more thorough read and give you a nice long introductory post either tonight or sometime tomorrow, depending on when I first get a chance. All I ask is that you don't lynch me until I get a chance to give you my thoughts, but that should be fairly obvious.

Doubt it will happen, but the quicker you are the better. Even just reading from the point you joined and posting from stuff made from there would be better than delaying.

1.) do you seriously think there is a chance you will be quick lynched?
2.) if so why did you not post more, if not why even mention it?

AurorusVox

I'm satisfied with silverbullet999's responses to my vote and question Wink

1.) What makes you so satisfied?

I would not necessarily be so satisfied were I in your position, though I suppose I might be...

In other news, Jerako is building a very good case against [no], but I'm finding it hard to distinguish between a newbie scum contradicting himself, and a newbie townie contradicting himself.

Good point! I also like how you have questions to ask, yet I find it disturbing that you ask nothing of Jerako. That reminds me that you also protected Jerako earlier in the day...

2.) Why, when you are not certain of the case, do you not ask Jerako any questions?
3.) why did you not press Jerako about the possibility of pushing against newbie town.

Oh [no]! How comes? Did he decide he didn't want to play any more or is it the intervention of IRL issues?

hehe I enjoyed the pun.

Die Prediger

hiphop

Jerako

I don't like your case on Sauron's spot. You seem to be twisting his words every which way you can and trying to pin your beliefs despite the quotes you are providing. Your attack feels fake, and if feels like scum trying to get an easy, quick mislynch.

These are now both in reference to the exact same post. You have now made it into an even bigger contradiction than it was originally

The pretend contradiction you are providing is obviously not in existence. Look at those posts again, [no] clearly stated that sometimes a reason did not need to be great to make a decision, and that he thought that was the case in that instance. He later said that upon relooking at it it turned out it wasn't a good reason. That still does not mean that it's not ok to make a decision in his mind. I don't see that as a contradiction, and I know I have voted for people for reasons, that when later explained did not seem like good reasons to vote them. Sometimes I continued to remain suspicious.
1.) are you saying that players can not change their mind?
2.) are you saying that even without evidence players should not remain suspicious of other players?

Lolwut? Again. This has been your primary argument about why you made the vote in the first place. You were comparing this to another game, and you said you thought that the rules functioned the same way here at first:

This quote is true. Talking about [no] saying he didn't understand the rules and put Die at L-1 without full knowledge.

it's obvious that you're scum by doing so.

Again it feels like you're pushing this a bit too strongly.

Jerako's attack makes me think he's scummy. He does not ask questions, and gives [no]/Sauron no ability to even lessen his suspicion. That is a scummy attack.

3.) Jerako, do you have any questions to ask that spot?
4.) Do you feel that there is any way that spot can not be scum?
5.) If you were scum and your partner was messing up like you feel [no] is, would you attack them?

Nachomamma8

silverbullet999

I'm deciding against posting more of these if x then y statements because it could be an easy way for the scum to manipulate me if they wish.

Quoted for truth.

Another problem with setting up situations like that is if you are wrong. For instance saying scum needs to be one of these two, lynch one then lynch the other the next day could be bad if it was not. You need to keep considering the evidence given to you.

I have a feeling that that is how most games of this sort normally go since us newbie players are more likely to shed a tell vs an experienced player. It was no's actions in and of itself that put him up on the chopping block and it was die's reaction toward you that (at least for me) put him up on the chopping block. I think that day one will end with one of the two getting lynched (of course nothing is certain). I think day two will have a more general scumhunting of everyone, especially if whoever is lynched ends up flipping townie.

Eh... interesting answer. The first part is semi true. newer players do give more scum tells just by being new, but believe me by the end of day one most people can see through at least some of them to find some town/scum.

I believe that day 2 generally does have more scum hunting, but only because someone has flipped. One of the keys I have found is to lynch someone who will answer many questions and is not an unCCed power role. Generally lynching such a person helps town in the future. Not all of the people who seem scummy will help answer questions based on their flip. You seem to just be sitting back at the moment... and pointing a little finger at a few people... unsettling.
1.) Why are you not pushing for anything here?
2.) if you could go back would you push for something, and in what direction?

Well I'm strongly feeling suspicious of no... i think we discovered him... lol though i might be wrong.. but yeah.

Very similar to what Jerako said.
3.) did you realize that both you and Jerako were sounding so confident?

Oh I fully see reasons to try to scumhunt more experienced players, I have absolutely no read on hiphop and nacho as they haven't posted much.

Really?? They've both posted enough to give off weak reads. you need to pay more attention.

I completely agree I haven't really been getting much from my actions and I have done this purposely... for one (as stated before I believe) I'm new and am not sure how to pursue it, and right now I'm more watching your investigations.

This is good. This is what I've seen many newbie town do. You need to start pressing soon though.

With no looking for a replacement... i feel like it's a mega sign but I will wait as to everyone else's thoughts before starting an action.

This is bad... Very Very Bad. Replacing out means nothing. of my 7 completed games I replaced into 6 of them. 4 I was town aligned, 2 scum aligned. one of the four I was a power role. Odds seem pretty good in my mind for normal games. I have replaced at L-1 as both scum and town. (I won both of those games and survived too ) Replacing means nothing any way.

@Everyone Do you find no's replacement as scummy, and do you think he should be lynched asap? If so/not why?

I find it frustrated. A player who just wants a small break and doesn't know where he's going to get it. Oh well, it happens... As for lynching him right away ARE YOU CRAZY. Just above you said you didn't have a read on two people You can NEVER leave day 1 without some type of read on every one *laughs* oh well, this game is to teach so you'll learn...

Long days are good for town. Especially long day ones.
4.) why would you suggest shortening the day before you had a read on everyone?
5.) why in the world do you find replacing scummy?
6.) If I showed you a game where I replaced in as town and was at L-1 and won the game for town would you change your mind?

I'm a noob, I don't want to shoot the gun before everyone put their opinion in,

7.) Why do you feel a single vote would be shooting the gun?

Jerako seems to have made some good arguments though.

I disagree, but whatevs.

If you mean I've been sitting quietly in the background doing nothing... I will have to disagree with you there and would frankly be a little frustrated with that implication.

eh.. not really. You've made your opinion known sort of, but you back it up with things like saying that you like other's arguments rather than offering your own. Even in your vote post you used Jerako. Making your opinions known is making new opinions. What you are doing is letting others take the brunt of the attack, thus if it falls through they would be most likely to be questioned. You were just a bit obvious about it... probably on accident in general, but still read back on yourself and see.

8.) did you realize that you were depending almost entirely on others' arguments?

When did I say this?

Eh, sure seemed you were saying replacing was inherently scummy to me. you need to be a bit more careful, again. I can see what you mean, but again I refer you to my previous examples replacing from an onslaught is not scummy either.

BTW, no worries you'll get better.

9.) Do you find it suspicious that Thor is putting blame on everyone but the experienced players?
10.) what do you think about the other experienced players?
11.) do all of the experienced players seem to be agreeing?
12.) do you find Thor putting words in your mouth, possibly misrepresenting you, suspicious?
13.) do you think he is doing it on purpose?

Thor : "hai guyz im askin people questionz and acusing peoplez and being the leador! don suspec me cuz im scumhuntin and if im scumhuntin there are no way i am scum!"

I found this funny, you fighting back with the same degrading stuff. You two should stop arguing like that though, it's not good. even if it is funny it's rude either way.

Also Jerako seems to have been skipped (just pointing it out, no criticism meant).

Ah, but it's something you should criticize (or so I think) There are numberous reasons he could have skipped Jerako, it might have even been a scum slip because he's trying to ignore his partner in his mind so that he won't draw strings back.

14.) do you think Thor and Jerako being partners is viable?

Could you make a prediction as to who you think will end up being lynched on day 1?

I find that question to be scummy. Though I asked it myself when I was new so... eh...

Thor665

I like aspects of Jerako's case (specifically I like the "second" contradiction) I think that's the most scummy thing we have on [no] right now.

I agree, but I don't like the way he went about it.

1.) If that was your favorite point, why did you not press for more on the other points?
2.) Did you find anything suspect in Jerako's case against [no]?

@silverbullet - what is your feeling about how thus far all the scumhunting has been focused on the 'newbie' players and not on the 'experienced' players?

Interesting question, I wonder why you didn't address it to the other players as well though. Maybe I'll find out as I go.

So you see no reason to maybe try to scumhunt the more experienced players now?

I'm pressuring you about scumhunting because I'm not feeling a lot from your actions thus far. As a second question - whom do you feel you are investigating right now (and while we're at it, why)?

Good questions.

If [no] replacing out is a "mega-sign" why do you need others to move first? Shouldn't you move, so you can show us the "mega-sign" and lead the way to lynching the scum?

....

Why should [no] replacing out affect your drive to get reads on other players? Especially since you specifically mentioned two players who you have no read on - that seems something you should be trying to solve proactively rather then sitting back and hoping someone will do it for you. If you lack a read or you feel someone isn't doing something they should - then *you* should do something about it.

Again, good questions.

I think this is our first policy lynch concept this game (Policy Lynch = a lynch based off of a set rule that never changes. e.g. - always lynch anyone who lies, always lynch anyone who lurks, always lynch anyone who replaces out, et al)

Personally I am lukewarm about most policy lynch concepts (I will also warn you that many players actually consider the very concept of using policy lynches to be scummy, be forewarned in other games). I am certainly against a 'lynch anyone who replaces out' policy unless you can show me evidence that more then ::insert base mathematic ratio of scum to town in Newbie games::% of people who replace out in Newbies have a scum role.

Basically, if your policy lynch catches people provably more often then going 'eeny-meeny-miney-moe' I will be in favor of it. Otherwise I am against it.

I already put my odds out there for my own replacements. only two of those replacements were in newbie games, both were town. I cannot talk about my replacement in newbie games that are ongoing.
I do find suggesting someone to be lynched for replacing as scummy. I also find that there are some policy lynches that are not scummy. I policy lynch any player purposely giving a null tell. I.E. someone playing a poor game to make people think he is too terrible to be really playing. Someone giving obvious scum tells all the time and doing nothing to change it. At worst I killed the most anti town player.

3.) What policy lynches do you typically condone?
4.) have you ever been lynched for condoning policy lynches?

@Sauron - since your name implies you are obvious scum soon we shall lynch you. Prior to that, if you could address any outstanding questions to [no] that would be excellent in my opinion.

I don't like this, many of the questions addressed to [no] were about his previous experience

5.) why would you ask something so generally, rather than stating specifics?
6.) Do you actually have any questions for Sauron?

"Hai guyz, I'll be reactive but no will due hunting for scummorz. do n0t suspectz me! kthxbye."

While this may be a generalization of someone, rewording them like this is degrading and rude.

7.) does being rude help you catch scum?
8.) Do you realize this is a learning game and should be a friendly environment?

TL:DR version;

I refute silverbullet's claims of putting words in his mouth and continue to pressure him on his desire to lynch [no] for replacing out. I also respond to his questions, explain how I've been scumhunting more people then he thought, and disagree that I was 'confident' in my vote on Die.

I found this funny too, though I'm going to read the whole post and get a real read on what happened.

9.) do you think everyone will see it the same way your summary puts it?

Okay, so now we're saying that you are only planning to hunt them on Day 2 because you won't know how to scumhunt till then. Fair enough. I would advocate asking them questions that pertain to their actions, that's my usual style. I also know a few players who get very serious analyzing voting patterns and/or activity levels. I also know players who just go off gut reads, vote people, and gauge reactions.

If you believe you have an idea of how to scumhunt, I would suggest going with that one as it will probably be at least personally comfortable for you.

QFT

Everyone please read the above quote. it is good advice

Seeing as how this is a game, consider the request honored. I will caution you though - if you find me abrasive and difficult to deal with you may have a rough time in other game threads.

This is true, but I'm glad you will stop for this thread. This is a teaching game after all.

I agree with you here, we need more of this kind of sense in the thread.

*laughs* this was funny too. I'm enjoying this now.

10.) do you think you are leading town around too much?
11.) what do you think of the other players, if you would a quick summary, since you have scum hunted most of them (you left Jerako out.)

Too long; didn't read.

Many players here tend to consider anything over two sentences to be too much effort to waste their mighty attention spans upon, and that anything worth saying can be said shortly and succinctly. I consider it silly, but occasionally seek to accommodate the desire out of deference and to perhaps test the validity of a hypothesis I have about how much weight a given post carries depending upon its length.

Again, this is truth. I've found that most either ignore long posts, or just accept them as being correct. (If he put that much effort in he must be town) eh.. it's unfortunate.

It is, within reason. Personally I think most players here curse too much, but to each their own. I prefer to try to focus on the game/fun aspect of it, but for some winning=fun and being serious is part of what they need to do. I'm sure you'll discover your own contented mix eventually...or have a psychotic breakdown.

hehe again, truth. I flip between being serious and having fun personally. I like doing both. I apologize if I get to serious on people I don't like doing that. I don't like ruining other people's games.

Why shouldn't you criticize me if you feel I haven't scumhunted Jerako? Personally I disagree with this assessment, but I see no reason for it not to worry you if you believe it to be true and believe I have scumhunted everyone else.

he wasn't saying you didn't scum hunt Jerako, he was saying you never mentioned Jerako in your list of people you scumhunted, which you didn't

12.) why did you leave Jerako off of your list?

I am not comfortable at this time suggesting there is anyone I am ok with (I am not).

Good
Also not outting your town tells (what makes you think people are town) is good advice for everyone. I survived once by reading through a thread and playing towards everyone's town tells. I happened to be town, but I replaced into a bad position (I mentioned the game earlier) and I could have done it as scum just as easily.

I figure 2-4 names should be more then ample at this stage though.

Should be, yes.

13.) Why did you ignore Silver's question about not including Jerako in the list of people you had scumhunted?

[silverbullet999]

1.) Why are you not pushing for anything here?
2.) if you could go back would you push for something, and in what direction?
3.) did you realize that both you and Jerako were sounding so confident?
4.) why would you suggest shortening the day before you had a read on everyone?
5.) why in the world do you find replacing scummy?
6.) If I showed you a game where I replaced in as town and was at L-1 and won the game for town would you change your mind?
7.) Why do you feel a single vote would be shooting the gun?
8.) did you realize that you were depending almost entirely on others' arguments?
9.) Do you find it suspicious that Thor is putting blame on everyone but the experienced players?
10.) what do you think about the other experienced players?
11.) do all of the experienced players seem to be agreeing?
12.) do you find Thor putting words in your mouth, possibly misrepresenting you, suspicious?
13.) do you think he is doing it on purpose?
14.) do you think Thor and Jerako being partners is viable?

Good questions though I feel they've been answered before I'll reiterate

1.) I felt too much of a noob to go pushing or as I like to say "attacking" people.
2.) If I could go back, I would have attacked people more in general, and/or maybe joined Thors attacks.
3.) I didn't realize I sounded that confident, It was 50-50 for me more or less.
4.) I didn't suggest it.
5.) Also answered this but my thought was that [no] figured he was found out and/or would end up getting lynched. As also stated before I take that back (It was a noobie assertion).
6.) My mind has already been changed
7.) If I had voted for [no] at the time, he would have been one vote away from getting lynched.
8.) Somewhat yes, as I didn't trust in my scumhunting ability.
9.) Somewhat but then again the noobies are probably easiest to target first. Also the experienced players haven't really done much yet (refrencing nacho and hip)
10.) I wish they would post more.
11.) Agreeing toward what?
12.) No I think they were just not phrased right or I misinterpreted them
13.) Possibly but I don't think so
14.) I could see that as a possibility. That and Thor and hiphop pherhaps as well.

I believe that day 2 generally does have more scum hunting, but only because someone has flipped.

One of the keys I have found is to lynch someone who will answer many questions and is not an unCCed power role.

Generally lynching such a person helps town in the future.

(in relation to the bold) Well... should I take this as you heavily think I'm scum or strongly support me getting lynched?

How does this help town?

No reaction about page 8 so I guess you haven't read it yet?

[silverbullet999]

EBWOTP? (close)

About the end of page 8*

[AurorusVox]

I'm satisfied with silverbullet999's responses to my vote and question Wink

1.) What makes you so satisfied?

I would not necessarily be so satisfied were I in your position, though I suppose I might be...

At first, he had responded coolly, saying he would gladly answer my questions. He had then provided answers to my questions. At first I was suspicious because I thought he was sitting on the fence; but he has often said "These are my FoSes" so I don't think he has

really

been sitting on the fence. That said, his reasons aren't the most solid, but I still think he's been forthright about them.

This feeling increased with his back-and-forth with Thor. However, his overreaction to HipH0p looks scummy to me.

In other news, Jerako is building a very good case against [no], but I'm finding it hard to distinguish between a newbie scum contradicting himself, and a newbie townie contradicting himself.

Good point! I also like how you have questions to ask, yet I find it disturbing that you ask nothing of Jerako. That reminds me that you also protected Jerako earlier in the day...

2.) Why, when you are not certain of the case, do you not ask Jerako any questions?
3.) why did you not press Jerako about the possibility of pushing against newbie town.

2) I had nothing to ask Jerako at that point. He's provided reasons for much of what he has said.

3) I am more interested on Thor's interactions with newbies, since he has said that it affects his reads 100%. Since Jerako is himself a new player, I don't find him pushing on other new players is problematic.

Oh [no]! How comes? Did he decide he didn't want to play any more or is it the intervention of IRL issues?

hehe I enjoyed the pun. [/area]

Thanks B)

And now, could you answer the question that I asked of you too?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I think I'm going to go with going ballistic with this reply.

*SNIP*

Other than that... anger felt good... haha

Another post like this and I'll boot you out of the game. That goes for everyone else as well.

Please reread the Rules post, and focus on the Golden Rule in particular.


I'll get to a Vote Count/prods later tonight.

Official Vote Count

Sauron - 3 (Jerako, Die Prediger, silverbullet999)

Die Prediger - 2 (Pulindar, hiphop)
silverbullet999 - 1 (Thor665)

Not Voting - 3 (AurorusVox, Nachomamma8, Sauron)

5 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Tuesday, May 4.

---

One last thing: Sorry for my response in post 183. I was tired and cranky. I'm changing the rule to this:

At deadline, ½ the original number of votes will be required for a lynch.

In the case of a tie, the person who had the most votes before the tie will be lynched.

If ½ the original number of votes is not met, a No Lynch will occur.

There will be no reduced number of votes in LyLo.

That should cover any situation in which the tie occurred from either counting up or down.


Thanks for your patience.

Vel

[AurorusVox]

Okay, so...no one has been pushing on Jerako that much at all.

So, Jerako...

Pulindar asked me why I hadn't asked you this before, and I don't necessarily think it was a pertinent question to ask at the time. But I want to ask it now. How do you react to the fact that [no] was possible one of the most "newbie"-locked player we've got in the group? Do you think I, or anyone else, should have asked this sooner?

Do you think that SB is also scummy for his contradictions (my anger is authentic/my anger is for a purpose)?

In our last game, I didn't read you as scum. Are you worried that our previous play together is going to make me more wary of you in this game?

Who do

you

think Nachomamma is going to vote for?

[silverbullet999]

I think I'm going to go with going ballistic with this reply.

*SNIP*

Other than that... anger felt good... haha

Another post like this and I'll boot you out of the game. That goes for everyone else as well.

Please reread the Rules post, and focus on the Golden Rule in particular.


I'll get to a Vote Count/prods later tonight.

My apologies, it won't happen again.

[Pulindar]

First off I'd like to say I got called away and never got to finish my post above, I'll get back to it later, but would also like to continue one with what's going on today.

Nacho has given a very clear read of himself in my mind. I've played with him in four games so far, and based on his two posts I find that I'm leaning strongly towards town with him. I have seen him as both scum and as town and he has some very strong meta tells. This game he seems to be playing his town game. I'll watch for it though because, as you have all pointed out, he has not posted much due to being V/LA


HipHop I am unsure of, but not due to lack of hints. He has merely said some things I find townie and some I don't I'll ask for clarification shortly.

Also, Pulindar, I feel like I want to ask you a question. What do you make of hiphop's two posts so far and their capacity to stir up virulent responses?

I had not gotten this far as of my post, so I didn't notice this at first, sorry. let me check. eh... not the biggest fan. Like I said, some things seem scummy, some seem townie. I need to examine it more and I will shortly.

(in relation to the bold) Well... should I take this as you heavily think I'm scum or strongly support me getting lynched?

How does this help town?

No reaction about page 8 so I guess you haven't read it yet?

I don't see why you would take it that way. I was merely saying what I do, not that I thought you were the top choice. I'll be pretty clear when I do say who I think the top choice is. As of yet I haven't decided, though a Jerako lynch would answer some of my questions.

It gives us leads for the next day, and makes others seem less scummy for their actions. It often depends on the flip, but can do wonders either way.

True that, I haven't read page 8 yet, well except for after my recent post. And I just finished hiphop's post on page 7. I'll go back and start there.

[Pulindar]

EBWOP

True that, I haven't read page 8 yet, well except for after my recent post. And I just finished hiphop's post on page 7. I'll go back and start there.

I meant I haven't read page 9 yet except for the recent posts, and that I'm on hiphops post on page 8. I have had reaction to, and quoted many things from page 8. Including a quote from your post 192 which is the last post I read before post 218

[Pulindar]

Thor- it is not important in a way. However it is also good for people to realize that if the IC survives, it does not mean that they are scum I was establishing that I may have more experience, as a lower rank, but we are all still people. It was also a joke. i do have to say that pulindar took it quite well. If I really wanted to be an IC, I could get sign up right now, but I don't.

There Is No Such Thing As Jokes!!!
hehe yeah it's all the same. One of my current games I replaced into a newbie spot and now the IC, and both SEs are dead. In the end that means I'm answering questions and trying to give them a good teaching game. It's important that they learn

HipHop,
Do you think Die and Silver make a good team?
Have you seen any reason to draw them together?
Is there anything that makes you think they would not be on the same team?
What about Thor and one of them?
Lastly, do you really believe the contradiction you mentioned?
If so, could you please restate your reasoning differently because the way you explained it did not make sense to me?


================================================
Nacho - good, I was hoping you weren't lurking

Only game I saw you actually lurk was glitch in time.

================================================
AV Interesting, but nothing new.

Notice how earlier he asked if cussing/getting angry was allowed --- and then, out of the blue, gets really angry...

That's a good point. Are you going to follow up on it?


================================================
Silver: I don't read things in all caps like that.

@Thor I'm not entirely sure what you mean when saying this. My replies with you have been authentic... it does annoy me when anyone puts words in my mouth (at least what i initially thought, I cooled down when everything was clarified, thus my "light-heartedness", would have i replied in an angrier outburst with you had i known i could cuss? probably not), and I have a feeling I'll keep getting questioned about the anger outburst with hiph0p (prevent ctrl f?) so I'll reveal it (under this hopefully long enough post so that he ends up skimming it and missing it until it's too late) My hope is to get into a heated argument with hiph0p, and perhaps him slipping some things out in his true rage. I find it a bit random and suspicious the way he just attacked me and seemed to try to start a bandwagon on me (granted he didn't place a vote on me). Maybe his quick glance of my posts made him feel this way... maybe he was egged on by a partner that may/may not be attacking me to join in to try to get me lynched.

ugh so many qualifiers.... ugh.... makes me wish I hadn't defended you below in the Thor section...

1.) again, does it feel like he's putting words in your mouth?
2.) when it was clarified did it seem he did not?

Your posts are confusing me to be honestly... I just want to skip this one and I read through it twice instead and still didn't get what you wanted...

ugh I skipped the capped post. 3.) did you ask him if he was trying to induce others to start a bandwagon on you? Why or why not?

================================================
Die, you missed alot of questions, may I ask why?
Do you plan on going back and answering them?
What do you think of the goings on so far?
Who is your top three suspects and why?

================================================
Thor

My reasons were already out there (not believing replacing out is scummy) and also my deduction is still disagreeing with yours. This looks like you're trying to go the friendly route now that the angry route didn't work so much for you.

Eh... I disagree. But, I also don't find his explanation convincing so... whatevs. I just don't think it's friendly v.s. angry, more like force of will/repetition v.s. persuasion. You make it sound like the method itself was tactic.

See above. I see you doing multiple moments of this sort of action - saying nice things over stuff that there is really no reason to be nice over. You also did it earlier when Aurorus was pressuring you, basically shrugging and mentioning that you were joking with promises to get more serious and involved.

While this is true, I don't see being friendly as bad. Nor do I see joking a bit as bad. For instance, later in this post you joke about Nacho lurking when he is V/LA. If you were being serious I would clamor on you for misrepresenting.

If you feel your method will help you catch scum, more power to you, just be aware that some scumhunting methods look scummy.

QFT

================================================
Mixed stuff

How about a third option? I see half of the players here are, in some way, more experienced than the others. You guys have been nice ICs for us, but at the same time you guys have been quite agressive on 2 newbies. Easy targets.

Even if this is true it can only really apply to Pulindar and myself since Nacho and hiphop were not participating at that time.

I believe we were both on you at one point, but with no's vote we simultaneously jumped off. I count jumping off as a null tell... if we had ignored it we would have been fine even if you were lynched, but many mafia jump off for town credit.

Anyway, we've gone in different directions since then. So, we aren't really being aggressive together. From what I've seen so far no one has been as aggressive as a real hard game though... A Glitch in Time
In that game the majority of the case on the day one lynch came from the person's second post. Which was

Are you serious when you say Parama is scum, Drip?

This post was on the first page.
the game started on the 19th, the first lynch was on the 21st. 18 pages in. Best part, the first lynch hit scum... We aren't being aggressive in comparison to that. Now, we probably aren't the easiest group either. But this is a teaching game so I don't think anyone has been too harsh. I know I'm trying not to be. Still, I am going for my win condition and will be looking for the best possible lynches.


================================================
I've read every post except the one in caps by Silver. my current thoughts are that
[no] was merely under too much pressure,
Silver needs to learn alot,
Jerako feels like scum,
I don't have a partner but am looking at everyone including Sauron and Silver.

[Pulindar]

Wikis

I made wikis for a few of our players following my personal setup. I did not make a wiki for anyone who had one, nor did I edit their wikis

I made wiki's for SB, Die, Jerako, and Sauron. Those were the only ones that needed them. I hope you guys enjoy.

[Thor665]

TL:DR

I'm responding to all of Pulindar's stuff. If that interests you, great! If not, then I have wasted a lot of time typing brilliant and witty answers.

===============================================

1.) If that was your favorite point, why did you not press for more on the other points?
2.) Did you find anything suspect in Jerako's case against [no]?
3.) What policy lynches do you typically condone?
4.) have you ever been lynched for condoning policy lynches?
5.) why would you ask something so generally [of Sauron], rather than stating specifics?
6.) Do you actually have any questions for Sauron?
7.) does being rude help you catch scum?
8.) Do you realize this is a learning game and should be a friendly environment?
9.) do you think everyone will see it the same way your summary puts it?
10.) do you think you are leading town around too much?
11.) what do you think of the other players, if you would a quick summary, since you have scum hunted most of them (you left Jerako out.)
12.) why did you leave Jerako off of your list?
13.) Why did you ignore Silver's question about not including Jerako in the list of people you had scumhunted?

1. ...why would I? (<--not rhetorical) I found those points meaningless on the whole and have explained why. I see little reason to scumhunt up what I consider a dead end.

2. I think he was pressing for scum tells by exploiting someone who spoke English as a 2nd language. That may or may not be scummy, I mostly consider it newbish since I recall doing pretty much the same thing back in my first game.

3. I am reasonably for lynching lurkers under active lurking charges (aka I support lynching non content providers). I generally also support lynching liars but that's more of a gray area. I also (though I am turning against this somewhat) support deadline lynches for a lynch's sake. Other then that I am unaware of any policy lynch my playstyle supports.

4. I have only ever been lynched once and do not even count it as a lynch of me (the aforementioned replace in cop investigation before my first post game)

5. I do not have a specific yet to ask him. Do you?

6. I feel asking him to respond to questions asked of the previous player in the slot is relevant (and we'd moved past his prior game experience by this point and back into his reads of other players and reactions to accusations, so I feel those are reasonable questions to request opinion on from a new player in the same slot)

7. I very rarely attempt to be rude, and honestly thought the l33t speak re-phrase was more playful then rude. It was not my intent to be rude to silverbullet at anytime thus far in this thread. I am occasionally more abrasive if I feel it is useful to the moment of the game. I have certainly seen abrasive play styles and tactics work and do not desire to totally rule them out of my methods, though they are a rare tool.

8. It is my understanding that the purpose of this game is two-fold. First, to teach the general methods of mafiascum.net, and second to prepare them for what they will experience in regular play on the site. I am unaware of any rule against rudeness here that is not also in effect in all other games on mafiascum.net. As a question to you, what relevance does this question have to anything?

9. I answer with a question (rhetorical); Do you think everyone sees anything the same way when any opinion is expressed?

10. What would you define as how I am leading them? Clarify my leadership as you see it and ask again and I'll offer my read on that. In a general sense I am reasonably content with how I'm playing the game, though I wish I had already figured out everyone's role by this stage.

11. A quick summary containing what information? I am somewhat against discussing certain aspects, as I have already said. Clarify what you wish and I will address this more. It sounds like you're asking for a list of every player and whether I suspect them or not.

12. I forgot to add his name to the list.

13. I don't think I did. I addressed that I disagreed with a suggestion I hadn't scumhunted Jerako and I questioned why it wouldn't concern silverbullet if he thought this. To my mind that was answering his question. What part of the question do you think I didn't address?

Nacho has given a very clear read of himself in my mind. I've played with him in four games so far, and based on his two posts I find that I'm leaning strongly towards town with him. I have seen him as both scum and as town and he has some very strong meta tells.

Is there a reason you don't share those strong meta tells at this point? Do you think town should just take your word on this one? I can understand you not wanting to clue him in on your meta read of him but...I feel like I'm being handed a horse pill with no water. Please pacify my concerns in some manner.

While this is true, I don't see being friendly as bad. Nor do I see joking a bit as bad. For instance, later in this post you joke about Nacho lurking when he is V/LA. If you were being serious I would clamor on you for misrepresenting.

An IC I once played with told me 'there are no jokes.'

Friendly, is not the scumtell I'm shopping on silver, friendly paired with his fake seeming (now admitted) angry outbursts seems scummy to me as he appeared to be trying to ward off suspicion through application of anger, sort of a modified OMGUS technique, if you will. (Get suspicious of me, will you? Fear the anger! But, hey, we can still be buds if you ease off.)

What is your feel of the buddying scumtell?

[Pulindar]

7. I very rarely attempt to be rude, and honestly thought the l33t speak re-phrase was more playful then rude. It was not my intent to be rude to silverbullet at anytime thus far in this thread. I am occasionally more abrasive if I feel it is useful to the moment of the game. I have certainly seen abrasive play styles and tactics work and do not desire to totally rule them out of my methods, though they are a rare tool.

Fair enough. I was raising that point before you two talked it out and it seemed to have been settled anyway.

1. ...why would I? (<--not rhetorical) I found those points meaningless on the whole and have explained why. I see little reason to scumhunt up what I consider a dead end.

I wasn't sure what your reason was. This particular reason is one I'm willing to accept.

9. I answer with a question (rhetorical); Do you think everyone sees anything the same way when any opinion is expressed?

Point taken

13. I don't think I did. I addressed that I disagreed with a suggestion I hadn't scumhunted Jerako and I questioned why it wouldn't concern silverbullet if he thought this. To my mind that was answering his question. What part of the question do you think I didn't address?

To me it seemed like he was asking the same question I did in 12, which you answered now.

10. What would you define as how I am leading them? Clarify my leadership as you see it and ask again and I'll offer my read on that. In a general sense I am reasonably content with how I'm playing the game, though I wish I had already figured out everyone's role by this stage.

Fair enough. Do you think, through your influence that most of the players are following what you are saying, and focusing in the directions you focus?
If yes, do you think this could hurt town?

11. A quick summary containing what information? I am somewhat against discussing certain aspects, as I have already said. Clarify what you wish and I will address this more. It sounds like you're asking for a list of every player and whether I suspect them or not.

eh I suppose I was asking as toward your leans on each player, and if you wanted to give a reason why.

5. I do not have a specific yet to ask him. Do you?

no, he hasn't posted since his introduction. Actually I'm worried he may need to be replaced as well.

Is there a reason you don't share those strong meta tells at this point? Do you think town should just take your word on this one? I can understand you not wanting to clue him in on your meta read of him but...I feel like I'm being handed a horse pill with no water. Please pacify my concerns in some manner.

Because I don't want to clue him into those tells and have him stop. Also I'm not 100% sure yet and want to watch a bit more.
No, not at all. I personally believe everyone should form their own opinions on people, but if an attack starts on Nacho I am liable to defend him if I continue to think he is town.
As I said before, I don't really want to give them away. Still, if you want to try to find them. Here he was town....Here he was scum....Here he was town

I may give away my meta later if I feel it necessary and am more certain.

An IC I once played with told me 'there are no jokes.'

Eh... I obviously disagree with that IC.

Friendly, is not the scumtell I'm shopping on silver, friendly paired with his fake seeming (now admitted) angry outbursts seems scummy to me as he appeared to be trying to ward off suspicion through application of anger, sort of a modified OMGUS technique, if you will. (Get suspicious of me, will you? Fear the anger! But, hey, we can still be buds if you ease off.)

I understand what you're saying, I'm merely putting in that his politeness did not seem fake to me. His anger did seem like an Appeal to Emotion to me though.... SO, I guess I should watch out for that in his politeness as well, I just did not see it that way.

What is your feel of the buddying scumtell?

This is a good question. This one is difficult for me to answer... I suppose defending someone for reasons I don't understand, not being able to admit their faults... etc. that's generally when I see buddying. I've only ever suspected a few people of buddying, but I've yet to be wrong ...

I'm much more suspicious of bussing and distancing. I have been wrong on those accounts, but I've been right more often.

So yeah, that's how I see things.

[Thor665]

Do you think, through your influence that most of the players are following what you are saying, and focusing in the directions you focus?
If yes, do you think this could hurt town?

Influence in a game like this is awarded by others, not claimed. I see some evidence that Aurorus seems agreeable to a lot of my expressed opinions, I also see the same from you. There is mostly agreement with my game theory posts and less so with my scumhunting posts though both have had a certain amount of adherents.

I think this influence could either hurt or help the town, and it tends to depend on whether or not my reads are accurate or not. At the very least if people 'trust' me it does on a basic statistical level help us since I'm not scum so we therefore have a better chance of lynching scum.

I suppose I was asking as toward your leans on each player, and if you wanted to give a reason why.

'Leans' seems to be simply another way of saying scum/town. I have already expressed a top four scumlist with reasoning, what more do you feel a desire to hear about and why do you think that information will be helpful?

Because I don't want to clue him into those tells and have him stop. Also I'm not 100% sure yet and want to watch a bit more.
No, not at all. I personally believe everyone should form their own opinions on people, but if an attack starts on Nacho I am liable to defend him if I continue to think he is town.

What is the expected advantage of announcing a town read on a player for reasons you prefer not to discuss? I basically feel that you cited meta here to add credence to a gut read.

An IC I once played with told me 'there are no jokes.'

Eh... I obviously disagree with that IC.

It's strange, he was a fan of yours