Mini 955 - Classic Mafia - Over

[hiphop]

Ever since I have played with Hoopla I have found a use for bws. It caught me. Bw for the sake of bwing is not scummy. It actually shows who is it support of a possible lynch of a certain person or opposes it.

hiphop: You have abandoned reason in assuming Exilon's motives and, in failing to question Seacore's, have shown that the excuse of paranoia is not in your character. Repent.

Why should I question Seacore when i agree with him, on the deer situation. The topic at the time i posted was the

interesting

. Obviously i am going to give my opinion on the matter. It is either
a) causing noise or,
b)information for the town

a shouldn't be done and b ought to be shared? Don't you agree TLJ?
As evident by my iso 2. i found it a little of both, because did it really take 6 posts to comment on what he found interesting? Yet that info should be shared, if it was found scummy.

As for the Exilon's part- It was the most unclear of info that was out there at that time. At least I got it clarified as long with the knowledge that he doesn't lurk. His answer was prompt and to the point(though a bit rambly), not unclear like Deer's.

It also seems to me that Deer said he would comment on the TLJ wagon, yet has disappeared.

So TLJ do you understand my reasoning?

Right now there seems to be a little too much noise, over the same thing. Podium to me ES is saying that because you labeled someone town, you will look more closely at the people you suspect and not everyone, hence tunneling. (normally what people do when they call someone town.) This early in the game there really is no reason that you should be concentrated in on one person when people like doomcow have only made two posts. If you don't understand that, accept that we can't convince you, and you can't convince us. So move on. If you want to keep repeating obviously you should copy and paste, because basically you guys are repeating yourselves. As for people being more scummy than others, that is only an opinion of the beholder.

[The Lord Jesus]

Esurio: You are full of questions, sister. The most important shall be addressed first. I have meditated on your words and you are correct: you cast the first stone at Master Tang. My error was likely born of the fact that I read the newest page first, and so remembered things in the wrong order. I can only apologize and rejoice that you are not as guity-seeming as it had first appeared. On the matter of barrenness of evidence, it was not your statements but the implications of your arguments that said as much. Surely if you doubt podium's ability to identify an ally, your faith in your own ability to find an adversary must be exaggerated. The question remains whether hubris is in your character.

Though the input of both Doom and Green has been fleeting, the former has voted and dared suspicion while the latter has only made preemptive excuses. His tone is guilty, like a sinner's. Of the innocent, I will say nothing but ask you a question in return. If you fear that our enemies will manipulate us by learning whom we trust, then how can you not see the real danger, that they will manipulate us by knowing why we trust them? If one whom I believe to be innocent is accosted unjustly, only then will I give details in that one's defense, not before. That said, the answers to some of your questions are behind us. Meditate on them.

On the topic of The Judgment in general, I am forced to disagree. The value of setting an example of testimony far outweighs the risk of manipulation using information that is bound to be public even if not stated plainly and, if the sinners among us are foolish enough to attempt innuendo here when they can speak openly at night, then the town has already won. I find it suspicious that you are so quick to vote and accuse based on arguments best suited for Mafia Discussion. As you learn to play this game, you will find that not everyone agrees with your approach even if they serve the same master.

hiphop: I understand your reasoning but I don't know that you understood mine. I do not find it suspicious that you didn't question Seacore. I simply find it instructive regarding the quality of your character, reagrdless of your intentions, in that it shows you are not paranoid by nature. Unless you are arguing that you are paranoid by nature, there is nothing for us to contend. However, from the perspective of a person who is not paranoid by nature, your reaction to Exilon's post was too forceful. Why did you not ask him what he meant or look at his play elsewhere to clarify?

All: I agree with brother hiphop wholly on one matter. Some of us are pointlessly repeating arguments and engaging in rhetoric. It is not necesarry to convince every accuser of your innocence. As I suggested to Exilon, the Father has created us with the capacity for brevity and we should give him praise by employing it.

[TheCheshireCat]

Oh shit, a lot of things happened since i was gone. I am gonna read and post something ASAP!

[Wickedestjr]

I am still catching up. Limited access + walls of text doesn't make a good combination.

Firstly, I think post 108 from Master Tang is a bit of an overreaction. I was simply saying that I didn't think it was scummy of TLJ to have contributed little when Master Tang had contributed much less. I wasn't attacking Master Tang, I was questioning Seacore. Also, I was saying that Master Tang hadn't contributed at all when Seacore said TLJ hadn't. Master Tang had given thoughts on TLJ after Seacore had said that, so I don't see why Master Tang is defending himself by explaining something that he said after Seacore made the post in question. It kind of looks like he isn't reading the thread very carefully.


@podium in post 111 - What kind of punchline were you expecting?


I have a strong town read on Exilon and podium is also beginning to look like town. I think podium needs to do more scumhunting because a large portion of his posting has been defending himself. TCC hasn't impressed me much and gut is telling me she's scum, but we seem to agree on a lot of things so I am unsure at the moment.

TCC, in post 113, I don't know if I interprated it correctly. Are you saying you are suspicious of hiphop?

[podium123456]

@podium in post 111 - What kind of punchline were you expecting?

I don't know. That's why i asked.

I think podium needs to do more scumhunting because a large portion of his posting has been defending himself.

I agree. I'll post some scumhunt stuff soon... have just been to preoccupied with defending.


-----------------------------------------------------------------

Greendude, doomcow, and (kind of) Deer --- LETS

GO

already...

[Master Tang]

[quote="Wickedestjr"It kind of looks like he isn't reading the thread very carefully.
[/quote]
Mostly being over overwhelmed by text.

[The Lord Jesus]

"Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need."
Ephesians 4:28

[Deer]

Alright, this is quite a lot of reading. Sorry for not being around, I had a hellishly busy week.

[GreenDude]

There is lots of walls of text and I am not really into the game yet. So, maybe when day 2 comes I will be more into it.

I feel like killing TLJ the atheist. His enigmatic words of 'wisdom' sould like a policitician going on and on about nothing.

vote:thelordjesus

I really don't understand how the game is going. I've been reading through but I don't get what's happening. Who does wickedjst know is scum and why? What mental problems does TLJ have? And what stances do people have on certain people?

[AlmasterGM]

Day 1 - Activity

DoomCow

has not picked up his prod. I have begun searching for a replacement.

A new wave of prods will be sent tomorrow (April 18th, 2010) to anyone who has not posted within 48 hours. Please remember to post a bolded message in the thread if you are going to be V/LA so I do not have to prod you.

[Seacore]

Just checking in. I've been really busy but trying to keep up. The walls of text are not helping my motivation so please try and be more concise.

I find TLJ annoying, but not scummy.

I don't like Greendude for the way he's attacking TLJ. It's more hypothetical ad hominen than an actual case. But I like where my vote currently is.

[Exilon]

Sorry that I haven't posted in a while. Mainly haven't found much time to post here, or found much to go with.
There's too many people complaining about walls of text. I don't know if that's good or if it is bad, but I certainly don't think that anyone who isn't willing to read walls of text isn't that willing to commit to this game as much. But that isn't much the case, and I AM trying to keep myself as short and clear as possible.

As it was stated, me and Podium just end up repeating more or less the same thing; but in his answer, he ends up not changing much of my opinion. There are some things I agree with him with and believe he cleared up a bit; but there's others which remain the same. Addressing them would be repeating myself, and I don't any more walls of text on that matter.

However, I will

unvote

. My

FOS: Podium [/u] still stands, and it is a very major one. The issue regarding Esurio's (etc.) and Hiphop still looks like poor defense, and I'll be willing to vote again in case something sparks my radar, even if just a little. However, even if it was poor, Podium did seem to try hard and address everything and it came off as genuine (more or less, but I tend to be picky with people's writing), and it also seems like he mixes up one or two things (aka misunderstanding). Which could be just us being on different wavelenghts, or him trying to hard to reach for a defense. (Note that if Podium or someone else wants, I can point out some stuff in greater detail, but for the sake of brevity, in this one post, I won't).

TLJ makes on or two good points in his post; as for stating reads, I am of the general opinion that people should provide them whenever they find it convenient; and only those they think they should. However, my opinion on this matter isn't very solid due to my experience, so I apologize.
I agree with him on GreenDude and Doom (but he got replaced, so nevermind). I specially don't like Greendude's overall tone on PS123; he said he was going to read the "long" posts but there was no further comment on them. His next post addresses TLJ, mainly. Again.

And with people catching up and reading, let's see what everyone has got to say.

[Deer]

I find TLJ annoying, but not scummy.

QFT. Can someone concisely explain the case on TLJ to me? I don't understand it.

[Wickedestjr]

Master Tang, what was the purpose of your vote for TLJ? You say that you had your vote on TLJ because he wasn't contributing enough. Why would you apply this point to him instead of... greendude or doomcow? Also, why unvote if TLJ never defended the points you brought up against him?

Seacore, please respond to the points I brought up against you.

[Wickedestjr]

@hiphop - Do you have a problem or find it suspicious at all that Exilon overreacted to your vote?

[The Lord Jesus]

Green: Your vote, having not been based on alignment, violates the sixth commandment and the first.

Exilon: Please do not count me among the complainers but consider what I said to be advice. A pithy post of any length would be welcome but pointless repetition and circumlocutious rhetoric make the game more difficult to read for everyone. Your latest contribution was much improved. Thank you.

Deer: Have you finished catching up? Your play here seems more careful than I would have expected.

[Seacore]

What was this directed? Also, I'm pretty sure this doesn't defend against everything in posts 86 and 87.

Basically, I'm saying that you making the comment "I know who scum are" was an okay attempt in trying to move from RVS to actual discussion. But it didn't immediately work and you kept rubbing it in our faces. To then attack people who responded to you is silly.

Couldn't the point in bold be much better applied to Master Tang? At the time of this post TLJ had contributed a little bit, but Master Tang had contributed nothing.

I raised points against TLJ to specifically make a bandwagon. I felt that he wasn't obv-town, and I could make a half decent sounding case against him. Nearly all of my vote on TLJ was to make a significant bandwagon and to see what fell out.

In my opinion Master Tang's vote soon after mine reeked of opportunism. So I switched my vote.
Green dude's vote also reeks of it.

If there's any other questions, please state them again.

[AlmasterGM]

Day 1 - Activity

Super Smash Bros. Fan replaces DoomCow effective immediately. Many thanks to Super Smash Bros. Fan!

esuriosporitus has not posted in over 48 hours and has received her first prod.
hiphop has not posted in over 48 hours and has received his first prod.
MasterTang has not posted in over 48 hours and has received his first prod.
TheCheshireCat has not posted in over 48 hours and has received her first prod.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Hello everyone, this is the first game I replaced into. Luckily, I've already read the thread completely before asking to replace.

Right now, my top suspects are The Lord Jesus and Seacore. I'll explain:

The Lord Jesus: Nothing really scummy about him, but he's just an really, really, annoying player. Now granted, this might be his gameplay, but it's really hindering him. He could have an town read by me, but the way he plays it really irks me, and it brings him down to an null read for me.

Seacore: He's been relatively scummy throughout most of the game. First off, I really don't like the fact that he's been jumping through his suspects and not staying with one person. It's like what I did early in Newbie Mafia 934, but worse.

I'd also like to add that after people stop focusing attention on him, he hasn't really contributed that much to the game. After he was no longer the main attention of the game, he has only made two to four posts. As a matter of fact, he even went four days without posting.

On top of that, calling someone an idiot was not really necessary and it doesn't fly with me.

This is what I basically came up with after reading the entire thread. So for now, I'll

Vote: Seacore

. I may change my vote depending on how the game goes.

I'm also not like GreenDude's vote on The Lord Jesus. Yes, The Lord Jesus posts can be really annoying to read, yes that post was halirious, but you shouldn't judge a vote just because you don't like their playstyle.

He did unvote, but I have a question to ask you GreenDude. Did you have any other reasons for voting him?

I'll be watching Seacore, The Lord Jesus, and GreenDude carefully.

[Seacore]

Ah, so your top two suspects are people that you don't like the posting styles of.

Good contribution.

You don't like TLJ posting in character. You admit you have no other case against him. And he's your second suspect.

Then there's your case on me.
1) Jumping through suspects.
When have I done this and why is it scummy.
I RVS'd.
I then deliberately Bandwagonned somebody, which is a tactic I enjoy. I like Day 1 bandwagons. I love Day 1 competing bandwagons, they are a wealth of information.
I then moved my vote to somebody and it has stuck there.

Also, why is jumping through suspects scummy. We're on day 1, our town/scummy lists should be being rewritten with nearly every post, we're still learning about each other.

2) I disappeared for a while.
Yes this is true. I'm in two other games at the moment. I play my games, mostly, at work. This means sometimes I have to choose which games to focus on in my spare moments. Also, the walls of text that didn't seem to contribute much to the game were a big turn off. Still, I roughly kept up to speed and was waiting for other people to post their cases. To me MT is the most likely to be scum, followed by Greendude.

3) I called Wicked an idiot.
Yep, I did that. It was a glib remark because he was demanding to know why I wasn't voting for him. He was putting words into my mouth by saying I found him scummy (although I believe he did this through miscommunication) and I shot off that glib (and hilarious) remark. Get over it, town are assholes, just like scum.

Thats your case. I suggest you find a new one.
I also enjoy your comment here

I may change my vote depending on how the game goes.

I believe thats how this game works, yes. But becareful, you don't want to jump through suspects, someone might find you scummy.
Seriously though, why did you need to put this in?

I think that SS is scummy with Green dude

but you shouldn't judge a vote just because you don't like their playstyle

Isn't this a summary of your case against TLJ? Yes, you only (effectively) FOS'd him, while Greendude voted for him.
And what is this "he did unvote" what do you mean by this?

That's my pick for scum team.
Master Tang
Greendude
Super Smash

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Ah, so your top two suspects are people that you don't like the posting styles of.

Good contribution.

I did not suspect you because of how your playstyle is, I suspect people when I think they are scummy. And you've been guilty of being scummy.

You don't like TLJ posting in character. You admit you have no other case against him. And he's your second suspect.

The reason why he's my 2nd suspect is because right now, you're the only one who's been particularly scummy and given that 12-player Mafia games usually consist of two to three players, I don't want to relegate my option to just one, since I do not want to be accussed of tunneling. Also, because he may state something scummy in the future, he remains as my 2nd suspect.

Then there's your case on me.
1) Jumping through suspects.
When have I done this and why is it scummy.
I RVS'd.
I then deliberately Bandwagonned somebody, which is a tactic I enjoy. I like Day 1 bandwagons. I love Day 1 competing bandwagons, they are a wealth of information.
I then moved my vote to somebody and it has stuck there.

You might want to re-read your ISO. You went after Wicked, you went after Deer, you went after TheCheshireCat, you went after The Lord Jesus, and finally, you went after Master Tang. How can you not say you were jumping around?

Also, why is jumping through suspects scummy. We're on day 1, our town/scummy lists should be being rewritten with nearly every post, we're still learning about each other.

When you do it multiple times for seemingly stupid reasons, that's when it becomes scummy. Also when you try to attack too many people in the game, as mentioned before. Direct quote from Master Tang, one of your prime suspects:

@ Seacore: I think you are too actively jumping on people for the smallest of reasons. You jumped on Wicked for his joke post, you jumped on Deer for saying it was scummy, you jumped on TCC for saying you jumped on Wicked, you voted for TLJ giving weak reasoning and the highlight of it being that you think it's time to "start a significant bandwagon", and then you finally jump on me and switch your vote to me because you don't like that I voted for TLJ, even though I had some sort of reasoning ( I thought it was pretty solid)and you didn't even have that good of a reason. I think you are acting very suspicious and scum-like, Seacore. So, I point the

FoS

at you.

2) I disappeared for a while.
Yes this is true. I'm in two other games at the moment. I play my games, mostly, at work. This means sometimes I have to choose which games to focus on in my spare moments. Also, the walls of text that didn't seem to contribute much to the game were a big turn off. Still, I roughly kept up to speed and was waiting for other people to post their cases. To me MT is the most likely to be scum, followed by Greendude.

Still, there was no reason to be inactive. Why didn't you attempt to balance all three games out? Sure it would be less moments at a time, but you would still be able to make at the very least, one post so you can avoid potential prodding.

As a matter of fact, by being gone for four days, you have been guilty of breaking Rule #12, which states that you must post once every fourty-eight hours or you will be prodded. Maybe AlmasterGM didn't recognize it, but I'm really surprised you originally didn't get prodded.

3) I called Wicked an idiot.
Yep, I did that. It was a glib remark because he was demanding to know why I wasn't voting for him. He was putting words into my mouth by saying I found him scummy (although I believe he did this through miscommunication) and I shot off that glib (and hilarious) remark. Get over it, town are assholes, just like scum.

In that case, you should have given him an legimate reason for assuming why he could be scum instead of mouthing off at him.

Thats your case. I suggest you find a new one.

Are you trying to tell me that I should jump from person to person trying to find the right suspect? That's a load of crap.

I also enjoy your comment here

I may change my vote depending on how the game goes.

I believe thats how this game works, yes. But becareful, you don't want to jump through suspects, someone might find you scummy.
Seriously though, why did you need to put this in?

Even thought you're the most likely scum, you're just my first vote. Please note, I will not be making many unvotes and votes here because I do not want to be accused of jumping around all over the place.

I think that SS is scummy with Green dude

but you shouldn't judge a vote just because you don't like their playstyle

Isn't this a summary of your case against TLJ? Yes, you only (effectively) FOS'd him, while Greendude voted for him.

Technically, it's not really an FoS. If it was, then I would have said he's looking scummy. But I don't, all I said that I didn't like his playstyle and I gave him a null read.

And what is this "he did unvote" what do you mean by this?

Ooohhh, wait. He didn't. Sorry about that.

That's my pick for scum team.
Master Tang
Greendude
Super Smash

One post. One post and I'm in your scum team list? That's ********! One post should NOT determind if you're scum or not. If you think I'm scum, why not wait for a few posts to go by before considering me scum?

You did make an case on Master Tang, so that's fine, but what about GreenDude? Will you please explain why you think GreenDude could be scum? Do not use my reason above.

[Seacore]

Um, if you've ISO'd me, which you say you have. I've mentioned Greendude and my case against him.

Deer, Wicked and Cheshire do not count.

Good town puts pressure on people.

I pressured Deer when he tried to get away with claiming "Some people's responses look interesting" to mean "Seacore's response looks scummy" Which is a very different statement.

I interacted with Wicked when it seemed he wouldn't let his fake knowledge ploy go.

And I interacted with Cheshire when she started to question me... I'm not even sure if you can say I attacked her, but whatever, you seem happy to fit the facts to the case rather than the other way around.

So when people bring up things that I disagree with, or find interesting, I should just say "oh, never mind, I've already brought up two people, I'll just let this one pass"? No, good town questions everything they find questionable. They don't say "Seacore is my target, I won't question anybody else because it'll get in the way of my seacore case" That's something scum does.

I'm not going to discuss why the other two games took more of my attention, because they're ongoing, but I'll just say: they're at different stages of the game, rather than early/mid day 1.

Right now, my top suspects are The Lord Jesus and Seacore

all I said that I didn't like his playstyle and I gave him a null read

Do you often have people you don't like the playstyle of as your top suspect? Or people who have null reads as your top suspect.
Do I take it that all other players in this game have town reads?

One post and I'm in your scum team list?

Yes, you are. You had hypocritcal arguments. Contradicting arguments and a blatant case of distancing in the case of Greendude. Congratulations on a very scummy post.

[podium123456]

Okay, have been reading along.

TLJ has resolved a lot of my accusations about not posting material of substance, which is good. However, you remain in character, so you have to understand that personally that makes me uneasy, due to the reasons i have already listed. Am i saying that that is an 'obvious-maf' thing? No... just that it keeps me uneasy and on guard... at least for now.

However, this really caught my eye:

The Judgment

>Guilty: esurio, hiphop, Green
>Innocent: podium, Wick, Exilon, Seacore, Tang

Really? Tang 'innocent'? From my POV Tang looked extremely scummy by joining the BW on you... especially with the reasons he gave. I find it hard to believe that you would disregard all of that, and proclaim him 'innocent' ... especially when you believed that he was bandwagoning, as you did in post xx. I really don't understand why he wouldn't be on your radar at that point.

Perhaps you realized your maf partner just made a really scummy move, and you wanted to try and neutralize the FOS's that you thought would start flying in? (as they did) Dunno. I just find it a really odd move.

I feel like i have my vote on maf, and i am not changing it at this time. (TLJ)


Master Tang - Add me to the group that thinks your vote on TLJ was really scummy. You essentially popped out of the woodwork to place a 5th vote on a player, with shaky at best / hypocritical at worst reasoning... then you almost as quickly remove it. Your contributions since the vote have been much better than they were previous, but at the time, that just felt like a really really maf move. As i alluded to above, i'm mulling over the possibility of a tang/tlj team due to the interactions between you two.

FOS: Master Tang

SSBF - thanks for jumping in!

Seacore - It does

feel

like you have been somewhat erratic with your voting. I realize you said you like to get BW's going on D1, and i agree... but with your other accusations (as well as this new one on SSBF) it feels like you toss FOS's around frequently. However, without doing too much thinking about it, i don't see how that is necessarily a bad thing.

Greendude/deer - Both you guys are in the running for my lurkymaf role award right now. Deer, you have popped in and spoken quite a bit... to not really have said much of anything so far. And greendude, the same can be said of you... except you havent really popped in a lot. Your post 134 was almost laughable at some of the lines in it. Like:

And what stances do people have on certain people?

I mean, really... what the heck kind of a question is that to ask at this point???

[Seacore]

I don't understand why people feel I've been erratic.

I have called out, without FOSing or voting, Wicked and Deer, for behaviour that I feel does not help town.

I have only voted for two people outside RVS. One was specifically to get a bandwagon going. The other was on Master Tang for fair reasons.

I have also, effectively, FOS'd two people. Greendude and SSBF. Both have acted scummy in my books, and SSBF has added fairly transparent distancing to this.

So I've had two non-RVS votes and two FOSs

Even if you don't accept that my vote on TLJ was just to get a bandwagon going, thats 4 people.

4/12

I think thats a fair amount of people to be suspicious of above the other 7.

[podium123456]

Perhaps it is just the language you have been using... like i said, it just

feels

that way. Maybe your discussions with Deer and Wicked felt more 'FOS'y' than 'not helping the town'y'. ...if that makes sense.