Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Espeonage]

I have a question. What would be the average amount of scum we are dealing with here? This is by far the largest game I have ever been in and so I would like to have a ballpark amount.

[RichardGHP]

Jahudo's 1184 states that I am "def. town" if Pom turns up scum... does this work the other way? Am I def. scum if Pom turns up town?

I have a question. What would be the average amount of scum we are dealing with here? This is by far the largest game I have ever been in and so I would like to have a ballpark amount.

In a 20-player game I'd say we aren't dealing with any more than 4 or 5 scum, with the possibility of an SK. Any more than 6 anti-town players would be edging on unbalanced.

[curiouskarmadog]

ABR, I missed (or forgot) who you said you thought was scummy 13/14 pages ago…why not just tell me them again? Opinions change…why not answer the question to secure your stance?

Also, my opinion has not changed (in reference to pom)…if on the off chance she is not lying…her information will be important. However, if she says something like I thought she just said, my opinion will change...do not bully me...my vote will go where I want it to...you think if I vote Pom, everyone will magically forget how adamant I have been most of the day about not lynching her?

also, do you think I am scum?...a yes or no, will be fine.

noted both sando and ABR scoot around the question....

You do realise that I agree with 90% of what you're saying about Pom right? I simply assume that since you so enjoyed accusing me of not reading the thread that you at least knew my position on this.

big difference, you are voting her.

just curious who else you think is scum, and why lynching Pom today over anyone else you think is scum is so important.

what if you could lynch me today...would you do that instead?

I would now you misrepping scum. Accusing me of dodging the question?! You asked if I'd find you more scummy based on Pom's flip either way, and whether the exchange to that point made you scummier in my eyes, and I quite clearly said 'Nope' and then explained why. Claiming that I dodged the question is a complete lie.

Yes, I'm voting her, and have stated why. Espeonage is scummy, I was pushing that wagon, it never got going. I went after Dybeck, that never got going. Are you actually reading the game?

I am not misrepping anything..I asked you if you thought I was scum...the first question had nothing to do with Pom...the last two did though..and you answered them (sort of)....I wanted to know who you thought was scum...you answered that in the above post..fine.

finally I wanted to know WHY you felt Pom had to die today over whoever else you felt was scummy...you didnt answer that question either, until the above post...so who really is misrepping who?

Javert…

I'm inherently suspicious of the <20 post crowd.

this was a bad post because of the multi factors that go into a post count. For example, i was under 20, but some of my post were larger than all of another's post combined. And ABR was over the 20, but was posting one liner bullshit. I felt that posts like that are a lame attempt to look like you are doing something pro-town or a way to provide a lame reason why not to suspect others. ...it bothered me...however, (if I remember correctly) his vote was elsewhere (on someone who was about 20) so that didnt get under my skin as much (and another reason why I didnt followup). If he had been pushing something based on that crap...then it would have been more of an issue.

I am all for lynching lurkers, but a post like that throws a bad light on people who posted under some arbitrary number and not focusing on an individual’s lurking.....just didnt like it.

[Faraday]

I'll catch up here later even if it kills me.

This is my top priority and I've been slacking lately, so apologies.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Pomegranate (9) -- RichardGHP, Seraphim, Espeonage, Anon, Amished, Albert B. Rampage, Jahudo, Sando, boberz
Porochaz (1) -- Javert
Espeonage (1) -- Pomegranate
NickF227 (1) -- Ojanen
Sando (1) -- curiouskarmadog
Faraday (1) -- dybeck
Albert B. Rampage (1) -- Porochaz
Ojanen (1) -- farside22

Not voting: Faraday, NickF227
18 alive, 10 to lynch.

Deadline: 1st of May

[farside22]

Note to all game:
I got swamped at work. Will be on tempory leave for the next 2 days.

[farside22]

I'm fairly unenthusiastic about this game currently. Ugh. Trying to get back in.

Nick, this is obscure but actually fairly relevant to my vote on you: do you play mafia somewhere else than here? And if yes, what's the place called (I don't know if links to other mafia sites are allowed anywhere on mafiascum but some name with I could find it by googling)?

farside, re: your points against me,

Even though she has pointed to bv310 scumminess in some fashion still avoids voting bv310 and votes Pom instead

I don't know why you think this one is indicative of me being mafia with bv. The context was bv already at L-1 pending for claim a few days before deadline with a surge of momentum, me coming in late (because bv lynch looked already inevitable) to change my lonely vote and say that bv lynch is passable but that I prefer Pom.

Notes that bv310 was talking about leaving but still signing up for a game but doesnt' vote him

Yeah, was fairly incredulous at first when I brought that up. Then innerly fluffed on my opinion. Thought that I've seen town, especially relatively inept town get bored with games, too.
That prevented him from replacing out and the slot getting the replacement halo effect, which is reasonably cool considering the flip imo.
Third point about me not bringing up bv in my first catch up is fair game.
.

bv has since flipped scum. Pom hasn't flipped so I'm going to question why you constantly felt bv was scum but never voted for him. There was still people who during your view thought Richard was scummy but you stayed away from that. I feel like you are avoiding certain wagon's day 1 and when I see a player saying yeah I think X is scummy but Y is scummy for some weak reason I'm pretty sure the player saying this type of comment is scum.

[Ojanen]

bv has since flipped scum. Pom hasn't flipped so I'm going to question why you constantly felt bv was scum but never voted for him. There was still people who during your view thought Richard was scummy but you stayed away from that. I feel like you are avoiding certain wagon's day 1 and when I see a player saying yeah I think X is scummy but Y is scummy for some weak reason I'm pretty sure the player saying this type of comment is scum.

I think it's very common for town to have several suspects while not voting all of them, especially D1 of this game with distinguishing scummy-scummy from pseudo-scummy town (bv, richard, nick, esp, pom off the top of my head). Your point would be stronger if you would actually look what your point hangs on: which reasons of mine for my actions looked weak/out-of-thread motivated and why. I felt the Esp case I was pushing and using my vote for since I replaced in had a fair amount of substance. I haven't pushed Esp today because his hopping on the bv wagon didn't seem particularly bussish to me (which was originally my reason for not pushing bv as much, btw).
I don't really understand what you mean with your third sentence.
Anyway, this line of investigation is fairly certainly town-town.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Ojanen, Pochaz has said he won't talk about what you wanted him to talk about.

[Ojanen]

LaL.
Do you have a read on Amished btw?

[Sando]

finally I wanted to know WHY you felt Pom had to die today over whoever else you felt was scummy...you didnt answer that question either, until the above post...so who really is misrepping who?

Why must you persist with the lies? Here's my post where I voted Pom and my latest vote:

Are you really this silly? A townie hider has to fear 2 things, being scumkilled and being vigged, and has to consider that anyone they hide behind will be scum-killed or vig-killed. I'm asking why Pom would be worried about a vig kill and hide behind someone she didn't think likely to get vigged, yet not worry about that person getting scum-killed.

I think it was a slip from Pom, and made me believe the claim even less. I think it's scum-thinking in terms of who they would hide behind.

Unvote, Vote: Pom

The claim seems to be basically utter BS. Nothing about it convinces me, quite the opposite in fact. I don't see the harm in leaving her alive, but no real scum-hunting seems likely while she is alive, so I guess that it's pretty pointless to leave her alive.

Seems pretty freaking obvious why I'm voting her.

[Porochaz]

It starts off with the whole policy lynch reaction. Post 1 brings the idea of a policy lynch, rather than ask the intent, he makes a statememt. Some people question him and in post 2 he answers with:

I've played with him before and he's under the impression that I'm terrible at the game.

Does it look random to you? He voted me 3 times for emphasis.

The fact is at this point we were in the random stage, and in the end a policy lynch needs to have a reason for it to be a policy, we didnt get this. I don't find it unusual that he voted 3 times. Its a good way of gauging someones reaction. Especially is ckds opinion of Richard isn't that good. His reaction was to overreact which doesn't look good.

The fact he then overreacts again in post 5 to a single vote furthers my suspicions against him.

Post 6-8 he gives up, as he's either newbie scum with too much pressure or its a plea to emotion. Either way its scummy as hell. If you dont want to be in the game you get replaced and you don't make a big deal with it. Everything he has posted thus far has been overreactionary and an appeal to emotion.

Post 9, he says hes not throwing a tantrum which effectively takes out the latter choice above. After a conversation with me, in post 13, he suggests that he is reaction testing. How is what he has done so far reaction testing? Anyway he dug himself a hole and it takes him a long time to get out of it.

The answer to Sando in the next post fails to impress either, he tries to reason why he was anxious by a single vote.

@Sando: Anon is correct in his assessment of me. I don't know if I'd call myself frustrated, but certainly something along those lines. Also, your vote makes no sense whatsoever. You're voting me based on overreacting to one (followed by a couple more) vote(s)? Now that's just plain stupid. Even though I was nowhere close to being lynched, a vote is still a vote and I have a right to be... anxious about it. If you had even bothered to meta me you'd know that over-reacting is commonplace for me anyway.

beyond the ... being a bit strange, and I totally disagree a single vote when it takes 11 to lynch does make me worried, especially when you think said vote is policy. A single vote doesn't mean anything in the long run especially early on. There was many other ways you could have dealt with it, such as addressing the vote with a calm response or even ignoring it. The way you reacted and appealed to emotion for the first part of the game is one of the bigger reasons I kept voting you. In this time you failed to do anything beyond emotion seeking. Something I find indicative of newbie scum trying to find a way out.

Post 16 he finally gives the results of his "Reaction testing". Whilst it was only 3 days and 4 posts away since he first mentioned it. However he only comments on a few of the people who responded. Which basically was:

- Faraday, post 128, being scum pushing for a mislynch and that people asking for a lynch should be lynched is horrible logic. Which doesn't make sense considering Faradays post 128 consists of:

Unvote Vote RichardGHP.

What? Why do you want to be lynched? (I've not read the last few pages, so brb, but anyone who's asking to be lynched SHOULD be lynched imo)

-Farside, post 130, apparently would give him a scum read except... er... doesn't. Why? and again the reasoning "its within the realms of probability for farside to post posts like these". What reasoning behind a vote?

- Sera's post 132 is the best though, strong pro town read after Seras magnificent post of:

Richard, why do you think we should lynch you?

The fact that Sera didn't vote apparently indicative of town and that scum would immediately give themselves away by hopping on for a quicklynch.

Then there was me and ckd, who didnt get a mention despite us questioning why (and voting him also). Then there is the fact that reaction testing doesnt really fit with Richards post 146.

Well part of my "tantrum" is reaction testing, and part of it is a little frustration. C'mon, you really can't empathise with being panicked and frustrated when 1 person votes you three times?

Iso post 17 complains about hypocrisy, apparently there were vote on him lurking? Really? But anyway that isnt my point. He then complains that when he does post he gets vote put on him because his logic is terrible. Which definetly did happen. However Im not really seeing the point. He got caught out on his "reaction testing" when it turned out to be a damp squib. So he has turned to the emotion card again:

MAKE UP YOUR GODDAMNED MINDS, PEOPLE!

I can't take the hypocrisy much longer.

Post 18 he remembers he has a "scum read" on Faraday and finally puts a vote on him. Interesting that didnt happen when he called Faraday scum in the first place. But here we get into the whole meta post. Im going to try linking this - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 45#2186545

Simply put as I said before,

- If you know your meta, then you can change it - argument voided.
- You dont really have a right to get angry over one post, you do have a right to explain your actions or if it doesn;t have a case behind it, ignore it or ask for more info. You did not do any of this. - argument voided.
- You may have been but the results of your "gambit" especially when you are already in the spotlight makes this extremely unlikely - argument voided.

19 - first part emotion seeking once again

second part he is asked why Faraday is scum but fails to produce any answer what so ever. Beyond "The way he voted me"

Post 21, he complains after Faraday says he is v/la which is a bit of a dick move. Out of nowhere he votes bv. He explains why in post 22. Which was "he's the next biggest wagon". Good reasoning...

He then disappears for a few days only popping up to comment on ckd being funny. Then making some idiotic post about how town replace out more than scum do.

Post 28, is ironic and not really apoint against him but I love that he start with the "mafia for beginners" talk then concludes that bobers is either a noob or frustrated. Continuing this post he answers the current case against him with essentially "No, thats wrong" and arguing semantics rather than the larger points made. I love this quote:

Again, you're not qualified to make that assessment. I WAS gambiting, and the reads WERE genuine. End of story, no longer up for discussion.

Somehow if we don't believe him, he is allowed to use capital letters then we MUST believe him. There is also a contradiction here:

So you'd rather I agreed with the case against me, self-voted and deprived town of one member?

which is a lot different from the "Lynch me" attitude earlier on.

Oh and as a reference to (Im sorry I realise this is difficult without the post in front of you) your point about posts 23 and 24 being close to each other.

Looking at 23:

I am prodded.

I'm just starting an intersemesterical break for two and a half weeks, so I'll be posting more over the coming weeks and game days.

and 24

Man. Really having trouble keeping up with this game for some reason. I need another game to go into night. -_-

Posting content tomorrow.

Good job on that one...

It should be pointed out as Im looking through bobers case there are some points I disagree with however his point about how in post 23/24 he promises content. Yet none in 25, none in 26...and none in 27...

Continuing on... (I want to move on from post 28) his defence on bobers case - which was in fairness not the best - "No, you are wrong... just cause..."

@Richard and only richard, Post 29 you say both town and scum have tactical and personal reasons why they lurk, can you give me an example for each of these situations?

Post 30 clear OMGUSing, he admits it, but its still what it is. The explanation in 31 is random and actually doesnt go any further than OMGUS.

Post 33, another random vote for bv.

Post 36, feels he has to justify voting a non-PR when really if he was going to justify anything, the reason for his vote would be a start.

Post 38 comes across as Day 2+ Mafia Errors in Jeeps Teels for finding Mafia http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... ding_Mafia in that it does sound like he is gloating here. http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... ding_Mafia

Post 40 brings back the ol' appeal to emotion card. Jahudo wonders why there was no reasoning, His reply basically gleans he only voted bv for self preservation and not because he was scummy. However you may notice in the article above, yet another point is voting without good reasoning and bussing partners when lynch is inevitable.

He then pushes Pom to claim who she has town reads on and claiming her role but does it in such a way that it reminds me of a creepy guy staring at an underage girl in a club.

Post 41 apparently solidifies his claim because of posts 1025 and 1027, post 1025 has absolutely nothing in it and 1027 whilst WIFOM (1026 is also a terrible post by Esp) she does have a small point.

Post 42 Mimics ABR, doesnt say anything, yet again he is another player who speaks lots but very little comes out.

Post 44, clasims he is inexperienced and mediocre. As ckd put it "congrats you get a pass for the whole game". It sounds so much like he thinks he should get a pass based on experienced and not on the content of the game.

Post 45, must have clarification from Jahudo about whether Jahudo would think him def. scum if Pom turned up town. Why the need for this clarification? What are you worried about?

So yeah this wasnt meant to be a PBPA but meh, it is what it is. Thats my case on Richard. In voting terms he is pretty much interchangable with ABR

vote Richard

[Albert B. Rampage]

OK well there is your satisfaction Ojanen.

[farside22]

bv has since flipped scum. Pom hasn't flipped so I'm going to question why you constantly felt bv was scum but never voted for him. There was still people who during your view thought Richard was scummy but you stayed away from that. I feel like you are avoiding certain wagon's day 1 and when I see a player saying yeah I think X is scummy but Y is scummy for some weak reason I'm pretty sure the player saying this type of comment is scum.

I think it's very common for town to have several suspects while not voting all of them, especially D1 of this game with distinguishing scummy-scummy from pseudo-scummy town (bv, richard, nick, esp, pom off the top of my head). Your point would be stronger if you would actually look what your point hangs on: which reasons of mine for my actions looked weak/out-of-thread motivated and why. I felt the Esp case I was pushing and using my vote for since I replaced in had a fair amount of substance. I haven't pushed Esp today because his hopping on the bv wagon didn't seem particularly bussish to me (which was originally my reason for not pushing bv as much, btw).
I don't really understand what you mean with your third sentence.
Anyway, this line of investigation is fairly certainly town-town.

My point has more merit when you dance around voting bv on more then one occasion but still find someone "scummier"

I recall someone asking you about Bv after your case on Esp day 1. You said you found bv scummy but esp seemed scummier to you. I will have to find that quote later. I typically see scum dance around at times trying not to buss if they can their scum partner. They either are hard core bussing or avoiding.

[curiouskarmadog]

finally I wanted to know WHY you felt Pom had to die today over whoever else you felt was scummy...you didnt answer that question either, until the above post...so who really is misrepping who?

Why must you persist with the lies? Here's my post where I voted Pom and my latest vote:

Are you really this silly? A townie hider has to fear 2 things, being scumkilled and being vigged, and has to consider that anyone they hide behind will be scum-killed or vig-killed. I'm asking why Pom would be worried about a vig kill and hide behind someone she didn't think likely to get vigged, yet not worry about that person getting scum-killed.

I think it was a slip from Pom, and made me believe the claim even less. I think it's scum-thinking in terms of who they would hide behind.

Unvote, Vote: Pom

The claim seems to be basically utter BS. Nothing about it convinces me, quite the opposite in fact. I don't see the harm in leaving her alive, but no real scum-hunting seems likely while she is alive, so I guess that it's pretty pointless to leave her alive.

Seems pretty freaking obvious why I'm voting her.

OMFG

Sando am i asking why you are voting pom?

or

WHY you felt Pom should die today OVER everyone else you feel is scum?

[curiouskarmadog]

Richard was a poor lynch yesterday (against the competing scum wagon)..he is a poor lynch today.

[curiouskarmadog]

edit...AND he is a poor lynch today.

[Seraphim]

Sorry for not posting in a while, RL has been pretty freakin crazy.

My position has not changed. Pom is still scum and if I could hammer, I would. Prozac's attempts to disarm the Pom wagon are really strange and possibly scummy if she flips scum. He seems to throwing shit against the wall and hoping it sticks.

We can find other scums tomorrow after we lynch the scum in front of us.

[Ojanen]

farside we're not really dialogue-ing, the post you quoted and my initial reply could as well be the answer to your newest reply.
ckd's latest attack on Sando is so bad (also cherry picking him for finding overreaction scummy) that I'm almost wondering if it could be bussing in this yes-we-will-lynch-pom-anyway climate.
Noting that Prozac thought the D1 content-lack case on ABR was shitty and that he was in line with his meta expectations of early Albert. D2 made a content-lack case on ABR as his top suspect. The Richard case doesn't really analyze the very relevant competing wagons aspect, which is a problem.

...aaaand I'm content with the mosquitoing around, want the flip and will now hammer for the reasons I stated yesterday.

unvote; vote Pomegranate

[Albert B. Rampage]

Oh, sweet hammer.

[Espeonage]

in b4 scum flip

[Porochaz]

Noting that Prozac thought the D1 content-lack case on ABR was shitty and that he was in line with his meta expectations of early Albert. D2 made a content-lack case on ABR as his top suspect. The Richard case doesn't really analyze the very relevant competing wagons aspect, which is a problem.

Sigh, mistake on the vote, albeit not a huge one. I should say that Pom is probably scum. However I wanted an extra day to sort that out plus there is no way in hell am I getting on the same wagon as ABR.

Both your points Ojanen in regards to me are fair. I assume that your Richard point is in regards to comparing with the bv wagon. I feel I touched on it in regard to Richard randomly voting on/off bv without an explanation and that that was always going to happen when one of them was definetly going to be lynched. In the end, the post was long enough with just the iso posts (I have uni revision to do after all!) and beyond saying what I did about Richards reaction there really wasnt much more to go in-depth about there.

As for ABR, he was fine yesterday when his posts were aimless. When he starts posting with a purpose but still retains the no content approach then that causes a problem. Especially when town go aimlessly along with him because he is being aggressive and using slightly bigger font.

[Pomegranate]

Okay. So I'm lynched. Let me say again that I'm town as you'll see shortly. So listen:

farside is confirmed town.
Espeonage is

SCUM

.
Proabaly ABR is scum too.
Lynch one of them tomorrow.
Work from there.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Come on, Pom...

You don't have to put on a mean face in your last post. Cheer on your team or something

[Pomegranate]

Who said it's my last post?

Go town, will ya?



(I may as well leave this game on a happy note. This is the best thing ABR has done all game, telling me to smile. I'm smiling.)