Mini 934 - Troubles at Smiths&Catharts (Game Over!)

[Copper]

Good riddance to that Bazzani trash.

With these flips, the town has got to feel good about me, Michel, and arguably SK.

I'm also immediately interested in this:

I support the mass claim motion.

Thor, care to explain what you were doing last night?

I will answer with - if you indeed tracked me, you wouldn't be worried by the result.

Why I decided to track you:

- I got a sense of excessive neutrality reading your posts, which I think is a very strong indication of a scum mentality.
- You had Fate as a top suspect for a good part of Day 2, yet you refrain from voting him until one hour before deadline, and it was a hammer vote at that.
- By contrast, you voted me for "not producing enough content," and even when I did start to produce content, you kept your vote on me until, again, one hour before the deadline, after it became apparent that I wasn't going to be the lynch.

Since my top suspect, Pie, has a fair share of votes on him, I think we'll go with a

Vote: Thor

.

I have admittedly been fairly comfortable with Thor for mostly this entire game, but I must admit SK's tactic of trying to lure Thor into a trap with his roleblocked night action has caught me by surprise. I think SK deserves town points for this, and Thor deserves scum points for his overly broad, "you wouldn't be worried by the result", which indicates to me that he's trying to feel out SK. I think a town Thor may have been more quick to throw cold water on SK's accusation, as opposed to leaving the question open so that he may still have an exit strategy whether or not SK saw him doing something. I've read over Thor's response multiple times, and I keep playing out different scenarios in my head. If Thor truly visited no one, which is the only logical answer to the response "wouldn't be worried by the result" that I can think of, why would he entertain SK? Additionally, why would he make an opening post that didn't mention SK if Thor believes that,

I actually don't trust you all that much and am still not sure if I buy your claim.

I'm not nearly as comfortable with Thor at this point.

As for the rest of the players, I think Socrates and Michel both earn town points for reasons already mentioned in the thread. I'm not sold on the theories that have been brought up against charter, but I'm also not quite prepared to write charter off just yet. Cyberbob's switch to Fate should give us some comfort with his alignment. I think SK has earned more trust from me than he had yesterday, and I think that Pie is the odd man out.

To the perennial question, "Who is scum?"

The short, kneejerk answer is Pie, and the longer, more thoughtout answer may very well be Thor.

I'd like to hear more from SK, because I wonder if he has more information he could share with us. I don't think I would be opposed to a massclaim at this point, although I'm worried that Pie bringing it up signals that he has some sort of role he's just dying to let out into the public arena.

[MichelSableheart]

Michel: Why is pushing SK death scummy exactly?

Because pushing SK death is pushing for the lynch of a pro-town power role over a member of the mafia. That behaviour is very beneficial for scum, and therefore more likely to be done by scum then by town.

Given how Fate pushed for SK's lynch at the end of the day, it is extremely unlikely that they are scum together. Fate could easily and without arousing (more) suspicion unvote SK after his tracker claim. She didn't. And then there are the arguments I gave at the end of yesterday about how pro-town tracker fits the setup and his and Ray's behaviour.

In comparison, we know Fate was scum. She was the only alternative lynch you could have pushed for yesterday. You didn't comment much on her, but were arguing mildly against her lynch for the most part.

---

@Thor: I have to agree with SK on that one. A very large part of your posts is devoted to asking questions for everyone and everything. Your actual accusations and opinions are far less obvious.

A recent example of this is post #962. It is your first comment on SK after SK claimed, which was highly relevant new info. Your gut reaction was to accept SK's claim. You express doubt about Pie's push for an SK lynch. There is no indication whatsoever in that post that you personally still are in favour of an SK lynch. When I question you on that post, you state however that "my gut reaction is to believe SK's claim" does not mean that you believe SK's claim. With such an important event happening so shortly before deadline, I would have expected a far more explicit stance.

---

I believe that Pie and Thor are the most likely scumcandidates at this point. Charter and Cyberbob are the other two players who I still can see as scum. Copper, SaintKerrigan and Socrates are town.

[Thor665]

Thor deserves scum points for his overly broad, "you wouldn't be worried by the result", which indicates to me that he's trying to feel out SK. I think a town Thor may have been more quick to throw cold water on SK's accusation, as opposed to leaving the question open so that he may still have an exit strategy whether or not SK saw him doing something.

My disagreement with this is twofold;

1. Yes, I was trying to feel out SK because I had already stated in that post that I could see town or scum energy from the feeling out SK was attempting. Why was it town for SK to feel me out and scum for me to feel SK out?

2. Why would I need an exit strategy "whether or not SK saw [me] doing something"? If I was scum, I must have known SK was roleblocked unless the scumteam isn't very communicative.

@Thor: I have to agree with SK on that one. A very large part of your posts is devoted to asking questions for everyone and everything. Your actual accusations and opinions are far less obvious.

Okay, in that case I'll withdraw to 'I was

attempting

to make them clear'. Though personally I do think I have made many strong and obvious stances throughout the game. I will offer the counterpoint of my feelings about the case on Kthx which you thought wasn't clearly made and I provided multiple examples of me being vocal enough about it to show that I had.

I have already admitted to being slow around the SK situation. It is clear for many of the other players here it was a much larger 'towntell' then it was for me, and to that I can only say I'm sorry that I apparently am still working on my scumdar. It wasn't as clear to me and thus I was slower to react and was still trying to get everyone to comment on the situation before I felt comfortable enough to move on anything.

[Pie_is_good]

@Copper: I (or rather, my predecessor) has already claimed Vanilla Townie. It turns out me pushing for massclaim isn't that unusual.

Massclaim seems to be getting more support than not (3-1 right now I believe). I'm fine to let SK choose the starter, since he's already claimed.

Thor wagon sucks.

After claim, town is going to collectively hit puberty and learn to get behind your wagons.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Pie: You are not in a position where you can say things like "Thor wagon sucks" and expect us to be satisfied.

Why

does the Thor wagon suck?

I know Michel would prefer to keep himself hidden, but at the same time I'm not sure I like what he's implying by being for a massclaim on Day 2, getting a gunclaim instead, and now being against a massclaim Day 3: that he was hunting for power roles. There's town and scum motivation for hunting for power roles, but from a town perspective I can't see why he's interested in keeping his role hidden, especially since if he's town he will be most likely the nightkill target tonight (because he's arguably the more townie between himself and I, and scum has already demonstrated that they have a roleblocker; thus, the most obvious strategy for scum is to NK Michel and roleblock me again). If he's scum using the promise of a power role to explain why he has a gun, then obviously the longer he can prolong having to saddle himself with a specific claim, the better.

What all this is leading to is that I am in support of a massclaim today, unless Michel can give me a

very

convincing reason why he feels hiding his role serves the town better than making it known.

This is interesting because I actually don't trust you all that much and am still not sure if I buy your claim. To a certain extent I see a pro-town action here in fishing for this info from me, but I also see a potential scummy reason insomuch as you might be fishing for info to back your fakeclaim.

I will answer with - if you indeed tracked me, you wouldn't be worried by the result.

I see Copper has already dug into this a little bit. I agree that I have a hard time seeing why you simply didn't say "I didn't go anywhere," which is not only less ambiguous than what you said, but also more honest. Why give a statement that doesn't make it absolutely clear what you did?

Copper also makes mention about how you didn't refer to me in your opening post of the day despite your claims that you didn't trust me or my claim. I'm going to take it a step further. You actually did mention me in your opening post -- but it was a question to Pie regarding whether I was still a top suspect of his or not. This implies, at least to me, that you were more trusting of me and my claim (by virtue of asking whether Pie still considered me a top suspect, you seemed to say that you no longer considered me a top suspect, which would indicate that you'd be trusting of me and my claim). When I throw out a question that implied that I knew you did something you weren't supposed to be doing last night, suddenly you drop down to a stance that still suspects me, still distrusts me. Does this seem scummy to you?

I strongly disagree with this claim. I feel I have done a solid job in being open and clear about my suspects on a regular basis and have made loud and long defenses and accusations against various players. I spit upon this accusation ::ptoo-ptoo::

Michel gave a pretty good example of your ambivalent neutrality. Your behavior towards me today is another example. You say you don't trust me, but you don't come right out and say I'm scum. You don't commit yourself one way or the other.

I cannot refute your other two points on me. I probably should have been more active over Fate, but I let myself get pulled into a lot of the claim conversation that ate up a big chunk of Day 2.

And that prevented you from going after Fate how, exactly? You even found time to go after Pie for the little discourse he and I had. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever why you couldn't have pressed Fate more or <gasp> placed a vote on him.

Also, maybe I should have unvoted you sooner, but I didn't particularly trust you and Ray had made the slot scummy to me as I'd said earlier in the day and I was quite content to leave the vote there, it was only Copper and Michel's strident arguments against the action that really sold me otherwise, and those came quite late in the day.

Oh, c'mon, gimme a break. Your vote for me was solely because you weren't satisfied with the content level I was producing. That was the

only

given reason that I found for you voting me that day. Doesn't it make sense that, once I

did

start producing content, you should unvote me and place it on someone who you considered to be a top suspect? At the very least, shouldn't you vote for someone you've given reasoning for considering a top suspect instead of someone you're only voting for "not producing enough content"? But you didn't.

I'm not sure why it's a scumtell that I hammered Fate, couldn't I have just lurked and "missed" the deadline?

And miss out on the town points for hammering one of the scummier players in the game? How about the possibility that someone would catch the fact that you had Fate as a top suspect for a good part of Day 2? How bad would it look if you didn't even back that up with a vote,

especially

if he later flips scum?

If you want to argue that voting for Fate doesn't make you scum, then do you think everyone who voted for Fate isn't scum? If so, why? If not, why should we think any differently of you?

Mitchel and Charter (

for being the first to abandon SK

and being stubborn, respectively) were probably most instrumental in getting Fate lynched at deadline, and are both probably town.

Would you mind explaining the bolded?

You aren't entirely off my suspect list, either. Why did you express a good deal of Fate suspicion yesterday and wind up voting for Pie at the end of the day?

I'd like to hear more from SK, because I wonder if he has more information he could share with us.

How's this?

[MichelSableheart]

What all this is leading to is that I am in support of a massclaim today, unless Michel can give me a very convincing reason why he feels hiding his role serves the town better than making it known.

I can't explain without claiming. All I can say is that it's better for the town if my precise role isn't known. If you trust me, please drop the subject. If you don't trust me enough to take my word for this, please state so. In that case, I'll claim during massclaim, and will explain then.

Note that I, personally, have no reason to believe other players claiming will be harmful to the town. I have no objections to other players claiming. However, I can't in good faith demand that they do so and simultaneously request that I be exempt.

[Thor665]

I see Copper has already dug into this a little bit. I agree that I have a hard time seeing why you simply didn't say "I didn't go anywhere," which is not only less ambiguous than what you said, but also more honest. Why give a statement that doesn't make it absolutely clear what you did?

Okay, here's the possibility as I saw it. Let us say you are scum and false claimed. You then open up with a "Hey Thor, what'd you do last night?"

Now, my option is to declare either I had a target last night, or I didn't.

This makes your question to me, basically a bit of role fishing in addition to possible scumhunting. Depending on my answer you, if scum, could always go 'ah, well that clears Thor because I actually investigated (insert other player), do you have anything to say about what you did last night?"

If you had come out with a more open - Thor I investigated you, please declare your night action, you probably would have received a more open answer from me. Instead you came out shady and I replied shady, and now apparently that makes you townish and me scummy which I do not get the logic of.

Copper also makes mention about how you didn't refer to me in your opening post of the day despite your claims that you didn't trust me or my claim.

I mentioned you the Day before and my opinions on how much I trusted your claim. Why do I need to restate it at the beginning of the next day? I listed my top suspects, and I did have you as more town then them, that doesn't mean I had you as obv. town.

Michel gave a pretty good example of your ambivalent neutrality. Your behavior towards me today is another example. You say you don't trust me, but you don't come right out and say I'm scum. You don't commit yourself one way or the other.

This is true. But I'm not committing myself because I'm not confident one way or the other. I listed the players I thought were more likely to be scum in my first post of the day, that is making a statement about my beliefs. Me saying I don't trust you fully is also making a statement. I do not believe I need to say that I think you're town/scum in order to make a clear statement about my beliefs on you.

You're mistaking clear statements of beliefs with clear beliefs. I admit I do not have the later and have said as much at other times in the thread.

I let myself get pulled into a lot of the claim conversation that ate up a big chunk of Day 2.

And that prevented you from going after Fate how, exactly?

...because I let myself get sucked up into it. You are correct, I *could* have still gone after Fate. I didn't and I said why. I'm not saying it somehow prevented me from doing so in an absolute sense, rather that it distracted me and I didn't press a Fate case as hard as I clearly should have.

You even found time to go after Pie for the little discourse he and I had. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever why you couldn't have pressed Fate more or <gasp> placed a vote on him.

I pressed Pie because I needed a read on him, and I said as much when pressing him. I had my read for Fate, and I said as much in my first posts on Day 2. You're right, I probably should have voted him but I am often a bit gunshy about placing votes on Day 2.

If you want to argue that voting for Fate doesn't make you scum, then do you think everyone who voted for Fate isn't scum? If so, why? If not, why should we think any differently of you?

I'm not saying me voting Fate doesn't make me scum. I want to know why you think me voting Fate does make me scum. If the one side of the equation is silly (as you seem to suggest and I agree) then why isn't the other?

[Pie_is_good]

More outguessing the mod:

We're probably facing 3 goons on the same team (one of which just died), based on flavor and the fact that there's been one kill/night. This says to me that NoLynch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

Actions speak louder then words. I consider the fact that you were arguing in favour of an SK lynch is a strong mark against you.

Because I was arguing in favor of SK lynch, or because I was implicitly arguing against Fate lynch?

If it's the former, I will say that I'm

still

highly suspicious of SK, and if your objection to this is just that SK claimed tracker, you need to learn to stop fellating power roles.

If it's the latter, yes, I was clearly wrong about Fate. Of course, you could attribute this to me being scum in a desperado move to save my partner, but then it's only really a scummy action if you go into it with the assumption that I'm scum. Which is hardly something I can defend against. Also, WIFOM blah blah blah.

Given how Fate pushed for SK's lynch at the end of the day, it is extremely unlikely that they are scum together. Fate could easily and without arousing (more) suspicion unvote SK after his tracker claim.

This is silly. The lynch was between Fate and SK. If they're scumpartners, they stand to lose

nothing

by bussing each other - either way they're down one member. So bussing can hardly be considered a point in their favor.

@ Pie: You are not in a position where you can say things like "Thor wagon sucks" and expect us to be satisfied. Why does the Thor wagon suck?

Um, no. I wasn't offering my services defending Thor, I was weighing in on the wagon - namely, that I'm not about to join it. My personal reasons are that Thor by-and-large named himself Town Captain earlier in the game at a point where it would be neither helpful nor clearing for scum to do so. But I'm a big believer in defending oneself, so I'll leave it to Thor from there.

Re: SK's tracking Thor

Strong mark against SK. As town, this is horribly stupid - he basically tried to trick Thor into claiming with no concrete info against him. As scum, possible motives include rolefishing and a way of saying "Hey guys, I got blocked last night and yet there was a nightkill! Clearly I'm town!"

Neither of those are great motives, but I honestly cannot think of a single explanation for townSK's actions aside from "stupidity."

To Do List:
Read Fate in relation to others, see who actually gets town points.

[Pie_is_good]

In fact,

Vote: SK

, just for giggles.

[Col.Cathart]

Votecount 3.2

With 8 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Let me know, if I made any mistakes.

Pie_is_good (2):

charter, Cyberbob
Thor665 (1): Saint Kerrigan
SaintKerrigan (1): Pie_is_good

not voting (3): Thor665, Socrates, Copper, MichelSableheart


The deadline is:

Thursday, May 6th at 7:30 PM GMT +1
Countdown

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Michel: I'll trust you. For now.

Okay, here's the possibility as I saw it. Let us say you are scum and false claimed. You then open up with a "Hey Thor, what'd you do last night?"

Now, my option is to declare either I had a target last night, or I didn't.

This makes your question to me, basically a bit of role fishing in addition to possible scumhunting. Depending on my answer you, if scum, could always go 'ah, well that clears Thor because I actually investigated (insert other player), do you have anything to say about what you did last night?"

If you had come out with a more open - Thor I investigated you, please declare your night action, you probably would have received a more open answer from me. Instead you came out shady and I replied shady, and now apparently that makes you townish and me scummy which I do not get the logic of.

But if you didn't do anything last night, what was the point of hiding it? I just don't see why you, assuming you're a vanilla townie, felt the need to not be forthright and say you didn't do anything.

I mentioned you the Day before and my opinions on how much I trusted your claim. Why do I need to restate it at the beginning of the next day? I listed my top suspects, and I did have you as more town then them, that doesn't mean I had you as obv. town.

I was one of your top suspects yesterday. You gave no indication yesterday that your suspicion of my slot changed, even as you hammered Fate. So if I don't get placed on your suspect list on the first post of Day 3, without even a statement like "I feel better about SK now," isn't that a little odd? And then I imply that you did something last night, and suddenly you recognize that I still exist, and that you still don't trust me or my claim. In that case, why didn't I make your suspect list in the first place?

This is true. But I'm not committing myself because I'm not confident one way or the other. I listed the players I thought were more likely to be scum in my first post of the day, that is making a statement about my beliefs. Me saying I don't trust you fully is also making a statement. I do not believe I need to say that I think you're town/scum in order to make a clear statement about my beliefs on you.

You're mistaking clear statements of beliefs with clear beliefs. I admit I do not have the later and have said as much at other times in the thread.

You're missing the whole point. One thing about scum is that they don't like to commit themselves to a particular course of action until the last possible moment, to avoid getting saddled with a belief that they have to live up to for the rest of the game. This results in scum appearing to be neutral about game events and player slots. That's the behavior I'm seeing in you, Thor. Stating that you don't have clear beliefs doesn't really help you out.

...because I let myself get sucked up into it. You are correct, I *could* have still gone after Fate. I didn't and I said why. I'm not saying it somehow prevented me from doing so in an absolute sense, rather that it distracted me and I didn't press a Fate case as hard as I clearly should have.

Admitting that you were distracted from going with the correct course of action does not excuse the fact that you didn't go with the correct course of action.

I pressed Pie because I needed a read on him, and I said as much when pressing him. I had my read for Fate, and I said as much in my first posts on Day 2. You're right, I probably should have voted him but I am often a bit gunshy about placing votes on Day 2.

Pushing Pie is fair enough. However, I really don't think it's fair to say you were gunshy about placing votes yesterday, especially since you had no trouble placing a vote on me for less reasoning than you had given for Fate's scumhood.

I'm not saying me voting Fate doesn't make me scum. I want to know why you think me voting Fate does make me scum. If the one side of the equation is silly (as you seem to suggest and I agree) then why isn't the other?

Where exactly did I imply that you voting Fate makes you scum? I agree, saying that you voting Fate makes you scum is a silly notion. But that's not why I'm voting you, now is it?

Also, you ignored an important section of my other post. Namely, the part where I outlined why you had no good reason to be voting me towards the end of Day 2. Just thought you should know.

[Pie_is_good]

Where exactly did I imply that you voting Fate makes you scum? I agree, saying that you voting Fate makes you scum is a silly notion. But that's not why I'm voting you, now is it?

I should point out that, seeing as how

not

voting Fate apparently makes you scum, voting Fate should in fact be a mark in Thor's favor.

[charter]

I'm back, I should be able to catch up tonight.

[SaintKerrigan]

We're probably facing 3 goons on the same team (one of which just died), based on flavor and the fact that there's been one kill/night. This says to me that NoLynch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

First off, mafia has at least one roleblocker. Second, how the hell is a no-lynch a good idea at this point in time? All it does is give scum a free kill on Michel (because scum obviously aren't going to kill me as long as I have mislynch potential).

Um, no. I wasn't offering my services defending Thor, I was weighing in on the wagon - namely, that I'm not about to join it. My personal reasons are that Thor by-and-large named himself Town Captain earlier in the game at a point where it would be neither helpful nor clearing for scum to do so. But I'm a big believer in defending oneself, so I'll leave it to Thor from there.

So the

only

reason you can't see Thorscum is because he supposedly named himself "Town Captain," and that it supposedly wasn't advantageous for scum? Is that the best you can give me? I call bullshit. There's never a bad time for scum to want to be "Town Captain." When one is Town Captain, people tend to trust you. How is having people trust you not beneficial for scum?

Also, it's nice to say you want to have someone defend themselves, but that's not what I was asking you to do. I was asking you to justify your stance on the Thor wagon. So, let's try again: aside from the "Town Captain" remark, why do you think the Thor wagon sucks?

Re: SK's tracking Thor

Strong mark against SK. As town, this is horribly stupid - he basically tried to trick Thor into claiming with no concrete info against him. As scum, possible motives include rolefishing and a way of saying "Hey guys, I got blocked last night and yet there was a nightkill! Clearly I'm town!"

Neither of those are great motives, but I honestly cannot think of a single explanation for townSK's actions aside from "stupidity."

"Mommy, Mommy, look!"

"What is it, Polly dear?"

"It's a scumbag, Mommy! See? He's throwing cow poop at Mr. Tracker. Why is he doing that, Mommy?"

"Well, Polly, sometimes scum find themselves in a lot of trouble, and they try to get out of it by making another guy look worse than they do."

"But...Mr. Tracker is a nice man, Mommy!"

"He is, but that doesn't stop the scum from trying. This is what makes them despicable, and why all scum must be lynched on sight. See? There's some other townsfolk, grabbing the scumbag and dragging him off to the gallows."

"I'm glad that scumbag is getting lynched, Mommy."

"Me too, Polly dear."

/end story

In case you missed the point of this story, Pie is pulling crap out of his ass. I got roleblocked, so my normal means of getting info went kaput. I decided to give my tracking target a reaction test and see how he responded to it. So far, I haven't liked what I've seen.

Was it rolefishing? Well, duh! Of course it was rolefishing! The difference is that you're implying that I did it to find gunless power roles (which for all we know may not exist), whereas I say I was trying to find scumbags. Who's right? Me, of course, but obviously you aren't going to accept that answer. So we'll let the others decide whether my course of action was prudent or not.

I should point out that, seeing as how not voting Fate apparently makes you scum, voting Fate should in fact be a mark in Thor's favor.

Well, if everyone who voted Fate were town, then that means you and Socrates have to be the other two scum (assuming a three-man scumteam). You might want to be careful about arguing that line.

But more often than not, scum bus their buddies. So I'm not going to exclude anyone who was on the Fate wagon, except for Copper (for obvious reasons).

[Thor665]

But if you didn't do anything last night, what was the point of hiding it? I just don't see why you, assuming you're a vanilla townie, felt the need to not be forthright and say you didn't do anything.

Presuming I'm vanilla - by claiming vanilla with no need to claim vanilla I help scum power role hunt.

Presuming I'm a power role - same as above, except here I'm claiming a power role and putting a target on my back. This is also different then an organized popcorn massclaim as it's basically a request by you for a claim from me without there being any order to the scumminess of who is being asked when.

I was one of your top suspects yesterday. You gave no indication yesterday that your suspicion of my slot changed, even as you hammered Fate. So if I don't get placed on your suspect list on the first post of Day 3, without even a statement like "I feel better about SK now," isn't that a little odd?

Clearly I don't think so and clearly you do.

You're missing the whole point. One thing about scum is that they don't like to commit themselves to a particular course of action until the last possible moment, to avoid getting saddled with a belief that they have to live up to for the rest of the game. This results in scum appearing to be neutral about game events and player slots. That's the behavior I'm seeing in you, Thor. Stating that you don't have clear beliefs doesn't really help you out.

You're using my "clear belief" of suspecting Fate all Day on Day 2 to paint me scummy.
You're then also saying i don't present my beliefs clearly enough and am scummy for that.

Why are both of those statements true?

Admitting that you were distracted from going with the correct course of action does not excuse the fact that you didn't go with the correct course of action.

And how exactly was I supposed to know my Fate suspicion was the correct course of action until today? I'm not saying my reasoning is perfect.

Pushing Pie is fair enough. However, I really don't think it's fair to say you were gunshy about placing votes yesterday, especially since you had no trouble placing a vote on me for less reasoning than you had given for Fate's scumhood.

What do you see as my reasoning for Fate's scumhood? I actually never presented much of a case on him because a lot of my suspicions on him were gut based, same as my suspicions of you. If I'd presented a giant case on Fate this would make more sense to me, but I really didn't.

Where exactly did I imply that you voting Fate makes you scum? I agree, saying that you voting Fate makes you scum is a silly notion. But that's not why I'm voting you, now is it?

You implied my hammer of him was scummy.

Also, you ignored an important section of my other post. Namely, the part where I outlined why you had no good reason to be voting me towards the end of Day 2. Just thought you should know.

I put my vote on you because I was following Copper and placing a vote on a slot I had previously said during the Day that I found scummy.

I left it there, as I said Day 2, because I wanted to hear more from other players before moving my vote.

I have also said I was slow to move it off until Michel and Copper were so vociferous against lynching you.

So I feel I have already addressed this, you may feel free to disagree with my beliefs but you can't say I haven't provided them - what do you feel I haven't addressed?

Re-asking this;
@Pie - you list Socrates as your number one suspect, considering the above how does that work into your concept? Was all the TCC/CSL and Soc/Fate stuff simple bussing? Why do you see it as such?

Also, has SK now become your top suspect?


@SK - you list Pie as your top suspect - why didn't you track him?

[Pie_is_good]

First off, mafia has at least one roleblocker. Second, how the hell is a no-lynch a good idea at this point in time? All it does is give scum a free kill on Michel (because scum obviously aren't going to kill me as long as I have mislynch potential).

Alternate explanation: town has a roleblocker who didn't trust you. Of course, this argument may become moot after massclaim.

No Lynch is a good idea because there's an even number of people alive. Assuming 2 scum, our lynching odds are either (2/8, 2/6) if we lynch as normal or (2/7, 2/5) if we NL first (this is assuming both mislynches, but if not the logic holds). The second one is better.

So the only reason you can't see Thorscum is because he supposedly named himself "Town Captain," and that it supposedly wasn't advantageous for scum? Is that the best you can give me? I call bullshit. There's never a bad time for scum to want to be "Town Captain." When one is Town Captain, people tend to trust you. How is having people trust you not beneficial for scum?

No, of course that's not the only reason I can't see Thorscum (in fact, I spent most of the above post saying exactly that). The Town Captain thing is what gives me an actively

town

read on Thor, the rest of my objection to Thorwagon comes from simply having 0 scum read on Thor, if that makes sense.

The game was nearing standstill due to lurkers and replacements. Thorscum could have easily shrugged his shoulders and haphazardly lurkerlynched without garnering suspicion, but instead I got the feeling that he was legitimately encouraging discussion. And if you think taking charge of a town makes you

less

likely to be lynched, you haven't played very much mafia.

I further don't buy the Thor wagon because I disagree with the points made against him. I think "you needn't be worried about my results" is a reasonable response to rolefishing, and I haven't noticed the measured neutrality he's been accused of. Like I said, I'm not going to argue those points for him, but I'm going on record as disagreeing.

In case you missed the point of this story, Pie is pulling crap out of his ass. I got roleblocked, so my normal means of getting info went kaput. I decided to give my tracking target a reaction test and see how he responded to it. So far, I haven't liked what I've seen.

I'm glad you brought this up, because the other day, while waiting for the sandwich delivery people to bring the steamy hot buffalo chicken goodness to my doorstep, I was thinking about much the same thing. I was starving at the time, and the thought of the succulent, tangy sauce smothering the sharp crunch and warm softness of the chicklets was only making me hungrier. And I thought: You know, in a way, the Buffalo Chicken Sandwich is really a metaphor for this life we lead. When you want something, you build it up in your mind so much that sometimes reality can never live up to your expectations. But then the sandwich arrived and they had included a pickle on the side as a reward for my consistent patronage, so my expectations were once again exceeded. I knew there was a reason I loved that place.

Well, if everyone who voted Fate were town, then that means you and Socrates have to be the other two scum (assuming a three-man scumteam). You might want to be careful about arguing that line.

But more often than not, scum bus their buddies. So I'm not going to exclude anyone who was on the Fate wagon, except for Copper (for obvious reasons).

I was just sayin' - Michel is voting me for not being on the Fate wagon, yet hammering Fate isn't exactly winning Thor any capital.

And if "more often than not, scum bus their buddies" - shouldn't

not

being on the Fate wagon be a point in my favor? Honestly, I get the feeling people are just using the Fate lynch to retroactively find justification for what they already believe.

@Thor: SK sticking his fingers in his ears and saying "La La La I'm the tracker" is a mark against him that I feel is worth pressuring. I'll decide bussing issues once I've reread Fate.

[charter]

You either haven't been reading or don't want to bother forming your own attack.

FoS: Charter. Don't like the whole post, especially where he accuses Thor of a quickhammer. Having the balls to hammer is not scummy.

Going back and reading all your posts, you do have some accusations and suspicions, so it's not as bad as I thought, I misremembered. But that's not the main reason I was suspicious of you, which I guess I had just assumed people would read my mind about since I didn't list it. However, you said basically nothing about Fate the whole time you've been in the game, and Fate was scum. It looks like you just didn't want to add fuel to the fire of his lynch and at the same time not defend him, basically keep your mouth shut about him. Plus, when I said something like "I don't remember why I thought Kthx was scum" Fate jumped all over that calling me scum for it. He saw this hole in my accusation of you and tried to spin it back on to me.

Hammering isn't scummy, but the way Thor did I find suspicious. I call hammers without a claim quickhammers, didn't mean for that to be held against Thor since obviously hammering Fate was the right thing to do. What I find suspicious is Thor weakly took the Sotty+Copper side of the Sotty+Copper/Fate issue and kept weakly reiterating that point, but only voted Fate at the very last minute. It just looks like distancing.

I further don't like how Pie is defending himself by saying his Posts:Scummy Posts ratio is good. That's like proving something with statistics, you can make that say whatever you want, plus it's not compared to anyone else's ratio, and plus that's BS anyway since that's not how mafia works anyway. You don't lynch whoever has the greatest quantity of scummy posts, else you just lynch the weakest player each day, not scum.

Massclaim, I'm for it.

I agree with Copper that Thor's "you wouldn't be worried" comment was just a way to dance around a pretty serious question, scummy. Thor's explanation is basically saying that he didn't want to answer the question.

In the back and forth between Kerrigan and Thor, I think that Kerrigan's points are more valid, and a lot of Thor's reasons look pretty shaky, like "I'm not confident one way or another" which is basically an excuse to just go with the flow and fit in, not hunt scum. And also his reasons for stopping pressuring Fate is just confirming my thinking he is scum.

[Thor665]

@charter

If you think my answer to SK's question was dancing around it because I didn't want to answer it, do you then feel her question was definitely phrased in an open and normal way? I have explained why I answered the way I did and why I thought her question was more rolefishing then legitimate - specifically why do you think I'm wrong on that point?

[Pie_is_good]

I further don't like how Pie is defending himself by saying his Posts:Scummy Posts ratio is good. That's like proving something with statistics, you can make that say whatever you want, plus it's not compared to anyone else's ratio, and plus that's BS anyway since that's not how mafia works anyway. You don't lynch whoever has the greatest quantity of scummy posts, else you just lynch the weakest player each day, not scum.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying my posts:scumminess ratio is good. I'm saying that literally the only thing I can do to "defend" myself is to post a lot of non-scummy content to improve that ratio.

I would argue that it very much is - or at least, it should be - how mafia works, but that argument is getting awfully general. I was just saying that I would the pie-wagoners to either a) have the balls to attack something

I've

said or b) back off because if I've been faultless since replacing in, that should be a strong town mark on my player slot.

[charter]

@charter

If you think my answer to SK's question was dancing around it because I didn't want to answer it, do you then feel her question was definitely phrased in an open and normal way? I have explained why I answered the way I did and why I thought her question was more rolefishing then legitimate - specifically why do you think I'm wrong on that point?

I think it was normal. I was just caught by a tracker as scum in a recent game and I believe what Kerrigan said is essentially the same thing. Granted the tracker wasn't blocked, but they didn't just outright claim they tracked me to the NK, they left it wide open like Kerrigan did. Before he even said he tracked me, he had me fakeclaiming trying to save myself. My claim wasn't very good and was (along with being tracked) the main reason I was lynched.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13353

@Pie, fair enough, but I listed a few reasons I was suspicious of you and not the people you replaced.

[Thor665]

@charter - Col.Cathart also specifically asked you to claim your role, and you were sitting in a guilty spot since you'd targeted the NK.

My answer of - if you tracked me, you wouldn't be worried - is an open claim of, at the very least, not targeting the person who was NKed. That is a reasonable answer to my mind, especially if I did not wish to roleclaim at the time and manner.

Let me ask you this, if SK had asked you the same question as she asked me, and you did not wish to roleclaim to her, how would you have answered in a protown way? If the only way to answer in a protown way is to roleclaim, then why is that?

[Copper]

1. Yes, I was trying to feel out SK because I had already stated in that post that I could see town or scum energy from the feeling out SK was attempting. Why was it town for SK to feel me out and scum for me to feel SK out?

2. Why would I need an exit strategy "whether or not SK saw [me] doing something"? If I was scum, I must have known SK was roleblocked unless the scumteam isn't very communicative.

1) I'll admit I'm a little more inclined to believe SK's claim than probably you are, which could lead to a bias against you. The fact of the matter is, I feel like your feeling out of SK was unreasonably neutral. If you were townie, visited no one, and were resistant toward SK, then why not make your suspicions forthright? What was the purpose of toying with the idea that you visited someone? I mean, I get you could be trying to catch a scum SK saying something that's false (e.g. You visiting Sotty), but that seems like it would've been a pretty bold move for a fake Tracker to make. I don't think it's MYLO, after all.

2) Well, something may have interfered with the roleblock. Maybe there was a Jailer? Roleblocks are pretty safe bets, and a communicative scumteam is a pretty safe bet, but still.

I have already admitted to being slow around the SK situation. It is clear for many of the other players here it was a much larger 'towntell' then it was for me, and to that I can only say I'm sorry that I apparently am still working on my scumdar. It wasn't as clear to me and thus I was slower to react and was still trying to get everyone to comment on the situation before I felt comfortable enough to move on anything.

This is pretty close to AtE for me. I appreciate you wanting to explain yourself and apologize if you don't think you're being clear enough, but I don't want you, as townie, to back off what you think is right either. If I don't think you have a backbone, then that's usually a big scumtell in my eyes.

@Copper: I (or rather, my predecessor) has already claimed Vanilla Townie. It turns out me pushing for massclaim isn't that unusual.

I'm sorry; I forgot that you were replacing Kthx when I said that. Still, I don't think just because the person your replaced claimed has any bearing on your choice whether or not the rest of the town should.

That being said, I just realized your title. Has this already been addressed in this game? I take it you have a political stance toward mass claiming that may be a little more friendly than what is traditionally accepted.

@ Pie: You are not in a position where you can say things like "Thor wagon sucks" and expect us to be satisfied.

Why

does the Thor wagon suck?

Agreed. Pie tying himself to Thor makes me feel as though we're doing something right. Thor is already effectively tying himself to Pie by means of suspecting SK's claim as much as he has. This makes me think one of them is likely to be scum and one of them is probably town.

How's this?

You've already claimed, so what other reports do you have? Who did RayFrost track N1?

As town, this is horribly stupid - he basically tried to trick Thor into claiming with no concrete info against him. As scum, possible motives include rolefishing and a way of saying "Hey guys, I got blocked last night and yet there was a nightkill! Clearly I'm town!"

Neither of those are great motives, but I honestly cannot think of a single explanation for townSK's actions aside from "stupidity."

Did you miss the part where he said he was roleblocked? I would expect my Tracker to act confident in the face of this, and not say, "I was blocked, oh well, good luck guys". Thor's reaction, on the other hand, seems much more calculated. He seemed worried, as though maybe the block didn't go through as planned, and made a very flimsy statement. This way, no matter what SK ended up saying, Thor would've had room to maneuver.

First off, mafia has at least one roleblocker. Second, how the hell is a no-lynch a good idea at this point in time? All it does is give scum a free kill on Michel (because scum obviously aren't going to kill me as long as I have mislynch potential).

I agree with this 100%. Pie's proposal seems extremely counter-productive. Additionally, it seemed to me more like he was throwing it out there hoping that someone else will get the ball rolling rather than truly laying out a case for it. He knew it was a bad strategy, I think, but he still put it out there to see if he could get a bite.

Presuming I'm vanilla - by claiming vanilla with no need to claim vanilla I help scum power role hunt.

The fact that you are still entertaining the possibility of claiming a power role really does shock me.

How on Earth would visiting someone as a power role give you the idea that a Tracker, "shouldn't be worried by the result"? Just because you don't visit the person who was killed doesn't mean squat. If I saw someone moving, then I would indeed be worried. I wouldn't just assume they are a town power role. Given that we've already had an investigative role flip and no additional kills, I'd be more inclined to assume a scum power role. Three investigative roles seems illogical, a protective role seems logical, but the person would've had to have visited me, and the only other things that make sense are scum power, imo.

@SK - you list Pie as your top suspect - why didn't you track him?

I'll admit this is a pretty good question.

Alternate explanation: town has a roleblocker who didn't trust you.

Are you serious?

[MichelSableheart]

Charter's explanation for voting Pie is satisfying.

@mod:

Prod Cyberbob please?

[quote="Pie]Because I was arguing in favor of SK lynch, or because I was implicitly arguing against Fate lynch? [/quote]Both.

If it's the former, I will say that I'm still highly suspicious of SK, and if your objection to this is just that SK claimed tracker, you need to learn to stop fellating power roles.

It's not just the fact that he claimed tracker. It's that his claim matches Ray's behaviour, SK's behaviour and the setup. Furthermore, it is an unlikely fakeclaim for scum to make, especially considering that scum tracker is unlikely given what I've seen from the setup so far. Add to that that the most suspicious players, including confirmed scum, were on his bandwagon at the end of yesterday, and he becomes extremely likely town.

If it's the latter, yes, I was clearly wrong about Fate. Of course, you could attribute this to me being scum in a desperado move to save my partner, but then it's only really a scummy action if you go into it with the assumption that I'm scum. Which is hardly something I can defend against. Also, WIFOM blah blah blah.

P(Pie defends Fate|Pie is scum) = high. P(Pie defends Fate|Pie is town) = lower. P(Pie is scum|Pie defends Fate)= higher then normal.

I remember you quoting Socrates at the end of yesterday. Something about writing of obvious scumtells as WIFOM.

Given how Fate pushed for SK's lynch at the end of the day, it is extremely unlikely that they are scum together. Fate could easily and without arousing (more) suspicion unvote SK after his tracker claim.

This is silly. The lynch was between Fate and SK. If they're scumpartners, they stand to lose nothing by bussing each other - either way they're down one member. So bussing can hardly be considered a point in their favor.

I like to believe that you were a possible lynch candidate too. If Fate and SK are scumpartners and you are town, Fate would have unvoted SK and voted you after SK claimed. That she didn't tells me that either SK is town or Pie is scum, or both.

---

I have to disagree with Pie about Thorscum becoming town captain. By actively encouraging discussion, he could get some free town points without putting himself in much risk. People hunting lurkers would see him as very pro-town, people hunting for number of scummy posts would probably end up voting Ray or Ythan.

As for Thor hammering Fate: I consider that a null tell, because both town and scum would do it in that situation.

[MichelSableheart]

You've already claimed, so what other reports do you have? Who did RayFrost track N1?

That was in the post where he claimed. Ray tracked Kthx, who didn't go anywhere.

[Cyberbob]

Why am I in need of prodding? It hasn't been that long since I last posted, has it?

(I've been a bit busy the last day or two over the Anzac Day weekend, it's been all hands on deck at work with the public holiday)

Re: the recent back and forth between Thor and SK... point-for-point SK is looking stronger but man that attempt at a ~hilariously hyperbolised metaphor~ in Post 1038 was absolutely terrible. I'm still trying to decide whether the "you wouldn't be worried" thing looks bad for Thor or not - it's probably something I can see myself saying if I was in his position.
Scum trackers/watchers are by no means rare, and given how it turned out that SK was actually lying through implication about getting a result on him I'd say he responded to it quite well. That kind of "well would you like to explain what you were up to last night mister?????" question is pretty sleazy, if she'd tracked him to one of the people that were killed she would have just come out and said it (most likely voting for him as well).

I know all of that makes it look like I've talked myself into siding with Thor, but I do believe SK's claim and I wouldn't put simple stupidity like implicitly lying past her (even as town). So I don't know.

I'm quite happy with my Pie vote for now, I think he's expecting far more than is reasonable in terms of people letting the scumminess of his predecessors go to the point where his pushing of the point about him not being able to do any more to nullify that scumminess than he already is is bordering on an appeal to emotion. It's a reasonable point to an extent but I don't think it's sound play to totally discard the actions of former players simply because a current one is better at the game.

I'm still thinking about Thor. The "all questions no positions" point certainly is a valid one and I did notice that a bit during my big catchup read but I'll have to consider the other stuff a bit more.