Mini 934 - Troubles at Smiths&Catharts (Game Over!)

[Cyberbob]

Haha, I got a prod PM from Cathart just as I was about to hit Post.

[Col.Cathart]

Prodding Cyberbob. Socrates is also dangerously close to one...

[Col.Cathart]

Why am I in need of prodding? It hasn't been that long since I last posted, has it?

It was over 48 hours, so it fell under the rule of '72 hours of inactivity or 48 hours + prod request from a player'

[Cyberbob]

Huh, didn't feel that long to me (I'm horrible at leeping track of time when I have things on my mind).

[Thor665]

If you were townie, visited no one, and were resistant toward SK, then why not make your suspicions forthright?

Personally I thought I did when I said in my initial reply post to SK that I could see either a town or scum reasoning for how she was asking the question. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying SK is obv. Scum I just don't believe SK is obv. town and have been reacting with that as a concept.

This is pretty close to AtE for me. I appreciate you wanting to explain yourself and apologize if you don't think you're being clear enough, but I don't want you, as townie, to back off what you think is right either. If I don't think you have a backbone, then that's usually a big scumtell in my eyes.

I stand by my actions. At the point you're responding to this I'd already explained why I took longer to back off SK then other players and had been told (in so many words) that my reasons aren't good enough. At that point a shrug and an apology is all I can offer because those are my reasons. See also; my reason why I didn't scumhunt Fate more. I have been told it's unacceptable and bad reasoning, and have stood by it because it is what my reasoning is. I was being polite for the sake of politeness not because I was attempting to generate warm fuzzy feelings towards me. I won't be rude for the sake of avoiding feelings of AtE in my posts because I find being rude...rude.

Nowhere in my posts did I suggest I backed off of what I thought was 'right' and I'll note, as an easy and recent example, no one has got me to admit my response to SK's probe of me is wrong. I am quite comfortably staying here and saying why I believe my response was the correct one. I do not believe I have shown a weakness for any opinions I believe are right, I can be swayed from weaker opinions, but when that happens I do claim the new opinion as my own as well.

Agreed. Pie tying himself to Thor makes me feel as though we're doing something right. Thor is already effectively tying himself to Pie by means of suspecting SK's claim as much as he has. This makes me think one of them is likely to be scum and one of them is probably town.

I can more see the Pie scum/Thor town (not that this should come as a surprise) I see the obvious connections of Pie defending me and I grok how me suspecting SK puts me in a similar general theme as some of Pie's postings. But what is the logic behind Thor scum/Pie town?

The 'suspicious of SK thing' was opened up on Day 3 by me in Post 1003 when I asked Pie for his read.
I expressed my own suspicions of SK in Post 1007 in response to her question/fishing of me.
Pie expressed an uncertainty of his read on SK in Post 1009.
He later attached himself to the SK suspicion wagon after my stance was clear.
He later defended me after the SK v. Thor situation was already in full swing.

I see how he connected himself to me, I do not see how I connected myself to him. I'll admit I rather like his dinging of SK because I am less fond of SK at this juncture, but I still consider Pie a more likely scummer of the pair.

The fact that you are still entertaining the possibility of claiming a power role really does shock me.

I do not believe I have been put in a position where I'm obligated to claim yet. Until such point I do not intend to claim. I do not see this as shocking.

When Sotty gunsmith'ed (good grammar is good) you your reply to him was 'yes, our role doesn't have a gun' This is an acceptance of the investigation without actual claiming of anything.

When I was tracked my answer was 'you wouldn't be worried' which to my mind is at the very least saying 'I didn't target the NKed player' which, is already an acceptance of the investigation and a reasonable one to my mind.

How on Earth would visiting someone as a power role give you the idea that a Tracker, "shouldn't be worried by the result"? Just because you don't visit the person who was killed doesn't mean squat.

Fair enough. As a theoretical - if you didn't trust SK as much as you apparently do how would you have responded to the question in a pro town manner? Do you think it was appropriate that I role claim to SK's question?

[charter]

Let me ask you this, if SK had asked you the same question as she asked me, and you did not wish to roleclaim to her, how would you have answered in a protown way? If the only way to answer in a protown way is to roleclaim, then why is that?

If I was tracked I'd claim. It would confirm that person is a tracker, would possibly confirm myself as well. I'm not really seeing why not claiming who you targeted (if anyone) is going to help your case.

From my read on Kerrigan, his claim is the most suspicious thing about him, and now getting blocked, he looks even worse, but I got protown vibes from Ray and Kerrigan doesn't look like a likely buddy with Fate.

I don't really see what more there is to get from debating your comment. The discussion about it is overwhelming everything else. I think it was suspect, but not enough for me to change my vote to you or anything. I don't think you're going to convince me that how you responded was in any way townish. I don't think you're going to convince Copper or anyone else of that either.

[Pie_is_good]

I take it you have a political stance toward mass claiming that may be a little more friendly than what is traditionally accepted.

Yes, this is accurate.

Agreed. Pie tying himself to Thor makes me feel as though we're doing something right.

Pie: I don't really like the Thor wagon.
Everyone: Defend your assertions!
Pie: Well, I don't really want to, but X, Y and Z.
Everyone: Oh my god! Pie is defending Thor! Scummery!

I am not "defending" Thor or tying myself to Thor any more than those voting Thor are "attacking" him or un-tying themselves to him.

Did you miss the part where he said he was roleblocked?

Um, no - my whole post hinges on the fact that he was roleblocked. Given that SK had no result, he didn't have any more or less info on Thor than before. Therefore, his decision to rolefish on Thor - rather than, say, charter - was arbitrary. Hence it's probably stupidity, but certainly not town.

Also, as previously mentioned, please let SK defend himself. More to look back on that way.

It's not just the fact that he claimed tracker. It's that his claim matches Ray's behaviour, SK's behaviour and the setup. Furthermore, it is an unlikely fakeclaim for scum to make, especially considering that scum tracker is unlikely given what I've seen from the setup so far. Add to that that the most suspicious players, including confirmed scum, were on his bandwagon at the end of yesterday, and he becomes extremely likely town.

I disagree that his claim matches Ray's (or SK's) behavior at all. I think it's a very likely fakeclaim - tracker who conveniently has a gun - especially shortly after a gunsmith claim, and especially when he gets conveniently roleblocked the next night. I don't consider this town's refusal to consider bussing a point in SK's favor. I am very curious how you plan to spin this disagreement into

me

being scummy.

P(Pie defends Fate|Pie is scum) = high. P(Pie defends Fate|Pie is town) = lower.

I would argue that, given that I had/have approximately 0 political capital with the town, Piescum would really have very little reason to defend a scumbuddy (so P(Pie defends Fate|Pie is scum) is not much different from the case where Pie is town). In any case, this is tough to defend against because I fully confess to pushing SK wagon over Fate and being wrong, so make of that what you will.

For reasons previously discussed, I'm not going to get into the "Thor being town captain" fight.

As for Thor hammering Fate: I consider that a null tell, because both town and scum would do it in that situation.

You don't think Thorscum could have let the day die on a NoLynch?

I think he's expecting far more than is reasonable in terms of people letting the scumminess of his predecessors go to the point where his pushing of the point about him not being able to do any more to nullify that scumminess than he already is is bordering on an appeal to emotion.

I *still* don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that, at some point, you can't get by with attacking me without attacking things I say.

I dislike the setup of me/Thor as tomorrow's lynch if Thor/me gets mislynched today.

[MichelSableheart]

@Cyberbob: The main reason I asked for a prod on you is that I wanted to hear your reasoning for voting Pie. Why exactly is he more likely scum?

You don't think Thorscum could have let the day die on a NoLynch?

Not without giving up his previous reputation, no. His last post before the hammer did not contain any indication that he couldn't be around at deadline. If the day ended in a no lynch, he would probably be heavily pressured over it. Besides, Sotty was still around too. If Thor didn't place the hammer, it's likely that Sotty would have done so.

[Cyberbob]

@Cyberbob: The main reason I asked for a prod on you is that I wanted to hear your reasoning for voting Pie. Why exactly is he more likely scum?

My vote for him was a bit of a kneejerk reaction to his "scumminess:posting ratio" baloney, but he was on the radar beforehand largely due to the awfulness of his predecessors and how little he offered yesterday beyond talking up his massclaim idea (which I do agree with, it's just that there's a point where it becomes an excuse not to talk about anything else).

I am wavering a bit at the moment with this Thor business though. On top of everything else, the idea of him being scum does stike a bit of a chord in my mind given the connection between him and Copper I made in the past - I discarded it when Copper more or less turned out to be confirmed town as he was definitely the scummier of the two. I didn't really consider the possibility that it might have been Thorscum buddying up to Coppertown.

Alright, I've talked myself into it.

Unvote, Vote: Thor

I dislike the setup of me/Thor as tomorrow's lynch if Thor/me gets mislynched today.

I don't like that either, setting up any lynch in advance is absolutely begging for trouble. Has anyone actually suggested that or is it just the impression you're getting?

[Pie_is_good]

People have made statements to the effect of "Either Piescum/Thortown or Thorscum/Pietown." I have to imagine this will be reiterated tomorrow when one of us gets lynched and flips town.

[Thor665]

TL:DR

Part 1 is me discussing my read through - I suspect Pie.
Part 2 I discuss more defense of myself I noted through the re-read.

==================Part 1=====================

"People" is only Copper...well, okay, "people" probably is the correct word to use there, but I do believe only that slot has put those thoughts into print. (though I myself said I could see Piescum/Thortown - I don't see the other one though)

Finishing reading over Fate and I'm, as usual, feeling more confused then brilliant. Apparently admitting this is scummy, but here's where I'm at.

1. Reading over Fate seems to clear Socrates pretty well as he really did hunt him more then seems needed and at a time it really looked like he was trying to revive the TCC energy.

2. He avoided discussing his thoughts on myself, Cyberbob/Zorblag/Cyberbob, and Pie to a certain extent. He starts off commenting mixed reads on Zorblag, is pressed by Sotty, clarifies to town, later shifts him (now Cyberbob) to neutral, and after Cyberbob votes Fate quickly puts him to 2nd biggest suspect. Pie basically stays a neutral read throughout and I remain an un-discussed town read.

3. Cyberbob is the second vote on Fate. It seems he could have easily enough gone for Pie or SK at this point (prior to the role claim, post gun claim), yet he happens to target the scum. He claims he'd be willing to switch to SK to ensure a lynch (he later does this, and then switches back at Michel's and Copper's bequest). I'm getting some bad energy here, but will admit maybe I'm being colored by his voting for me in the present. I personally would not be surprised if he put his vote on Fate during a low threat time for Fate, and figured it would be an easy way to float over to SK 'to ensure a lynch'. I think there's a good chance this ended up being a bussing.

4. Pie's SK vote still looks the worst to me from the wagon as he claimed he got on it for the sake of a wagon and no other solid reason. He also did this at a point Fate's wagon was gaining some steam and it feels like an attempt to push it over the line.

I think Pie is a good head and shoulders above the other potential scum here.

=================Part 2================

For my defense I would like to point out the following.
During the lynch situation my shift to Fate and 'hanging on' to SK have been cited as scummy. I would like to note that my last post prior to the hammer was on Sunday evening and I was still discussing my reads of the claim and requesting to hear more from Copper and Sotty (I also admit I don't like Pie's push on Kerrigan for those keeping track)

In between is when Michel and Copper 'rally the troops' to switch votes to Fate.

My very next post is Monday morning, and I hammer.

I'll also note that both SK and Cyberbob's cases on me cite the obv. neutrality of my posts...while citing my suspicions of Fate all Day 2 (SK) and my protown/buddying vibe towards Copper (Cyberbob). I find it immensely obnoxious to have those used against me in addition to being told that I'm too neutral and not offering reads on other players. I'll again do not believe I have been too neutral.

[Cyberbob]

3. Cyberbob is the second vote on Fate. It seems he could have easily enough gone for Pie or SK at this point (prior to the role claim, post gun claim), yet he happens to target the scum. He claims he'd be willing to switch to SK to ensure a lynch (he later does this, and then switches back at Michel's and Copper's bequest). I'm getting some bad energy here, but will admit maybe I'm being colored by his voting for me in the present. I personally would not be surprised if he put his vote on Fate during a low threat time for Fate, and figured it would be an easy way to float over to SK 'to ensure a lynch'. I think there's a good chance this ended up being a bussing.

You just keep on reaching for the stars there lil buddy. One day maybe you'll reach them, but today is not that day.

I'll also note that both SK and Cyberbob's cases on me cite the obv. neutrality of my posts...while citing my suspicions of Fate all Day 2 (SK) and my protown/buddying vibe towards Copper (Cyberbob). I find it immensely obnoxious to have those used against me in addition to being told that I'm too neutral and not offering reads on other players. I'll again do not believe I have been too neutral.

I don't think you were being too "neutral" and I never said as much - I think you often used your questions as filler to avoid having to weigh in on some discussions but that's not the same thing as being "obv neutral".

I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth in future posts.

[Thor665]

I don't think I put words into your mouth, so I'll quote where I was coming from in your own words and explain that way;

I'm still thinking about Thor. The "all questions no positions" point certainly is a valid one

This is where I got the feeling you were dinging me for neutrality. I'll rephrase to suggesting you were dinging me for not taking a position if you prefer. I consider you saying I'm not taking positions to be the same as saying I'm staying neutral. I'll accept there is some differentiation - but when you then tag me for acting protown/buddying towards Copper clearly I'm taking certain positions which is my issue with then having the neutrality thing cited alongside those positions as part of the scumcase on me.

[MichelSableheart]

I liked Charters reasoning, and Cyberbob unvoted, so:

Vote: Pie_is_good

out of four potential suspects, he is by far the most likely scum.

[Pie_is_good]

2. He avoided discussing his thoughts on myself, Cyberbob/Zorblag/Cyberbob, and Pie to a certain extent. He starts off commenting mixed reads on Zorblag, is pressed by Sotty, clarifies to town, later shifts him (now Cyberbob) to neutral, and after Cyberbob votes Fate quickly puts him to 2nd biggest suspect. Pie basically stays a neutral read throughout and I remain an un-discussed town read.

1) I isoed myself, and I have not the slightest idea where you think Cyberbob became my second biggest suspect EVER. In fact, I listed Socrates as my #2 several times.
2) A lot of the case against me centers around insufficient reasoning. People accuse me of not commenting enough on SK before voting, not commenting on Fate at all, not properly defending my town read on Thor, etc. Upon replacing in, I said very clearly that I wouldn't have a read done until just before deadline. Now I'm being accused for not saying very much about anything until just before deadline. I mean, practically every case against me centers around the same "Pie didn't justify X enough," and at some point I would hope you would start to see a pattern.
3) Accusing me of trying to tip the SK wagon by first announcing that I was "Shameless Bandwagoning" and then hopping on is quite possibly the laziest argument I've ever heard. For starters, I had spent a big whoppin' post explaining why I was in favor of an SK lynch, and for finishers, I would hope you'd have a bit more faith in Piescum's abilities to expect me to think "I know! I'll try to TRICK the town by PUBLICLY ANNOUNCING THAT THIS IS A SHAMELESS BANDWAGON VOTE."

[Thor665]

1. I was discussing Fate in that paragraph. Cyberbob became Fate's second biggest. That's why you're listed in there as a neutral read of his - because Fate had a neytral read of you throughout and also why I say 'he' avoided discussing Pie, 'he' is Fate.

2. Is the pattern that you had insufficient reasoning? At the very least the people complaining about your read on me have a point since you declared me as town yesterday and cleared me again today - so it stands to reason you already had your read finished on me at that point. Whom do you see as most likely scum if not you and I? Do you still need to finish reading Fate again before you can say, as with your Socrates suspicion?

3. Do you support shameless bandwagon votes near deadline on Day 2?

[SaintKerrigan]

WARNING: THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG POST. EVEN WORSE, IT'S ONLY THE FIRST PART. I'LL GET THE OTHER PART UP AFTER CLASSES.

@SK - you list Pie as your top suspect - why didn't you track him?

Because, assuming a three-man scumteam with two still alive, I didn't think it was likely that a scum who I said was on my suspect list (namely Pie and Socrates) would be the one to perform the kill. I did consider the possibility of a Fate-Pie-Socrates scumteam, but came to the conclusion that it was more likely that there was at least one scum who I hadn't labeled a suspect, so I decided to try and find that one instead. I then got roleblocked.

a protective role seems logical, but the person would've had to have visited me, and the only other things that make sense are scum power, imo.

I highly doubt we have a protective role. The most obvious person to protect last night was Sotty. Sotty died, and since I drew the roleblock, that makes it unlikely that we have a protective role. Of course, I could be wrong, but if I am then I must seriously question the protective role on why he didn't protect the obvtown power role.

Also, Ray tracked Kthnxbye on N1, and he didn't go anywhere that night. Like Michel said, I announced this with my claim yesterday.

Presuming I'm vanilla - by claiming vanilla with no need to claim vanilla I help scum power role hunt.

Presuming I'm a power role - same as above, except here I'm claiming a power role and putting a target on my back. This is also different then an organized popcorn massclaim as it's basically a request by you for a claim from me without there being any order to the scumminess of who is being asked when.

Those seem like townie reasons to not give me an answer. But if we look back and examine things more closely, they wind up looking more like excuses.

You claim that because I opened "shady," you replied "shady." You say if I had been more open about it, you would've given me a more substantial answer. But how exactly do you interpret "Thor, care to explain what you were doing last night?" as anything other than me saying I tracked you? You argue that I could've taken in your response, made some blow-off remark, and go on to say I tracked someone else.

This

is the kind of rolefishing that gets one insta-lynched; why would I be so stupid as to try and pull it off? So no, the only valid interpretation of my statement is that I tracked you, and I definitely implied that I had something on you. In that case, there should be no reason for a town player not to own up to his actions (or lack thereof). An ambiguous statement that amounts to a refusal to claim is not a very townie thing to do, and leads one to believe that there is something that wishes to be kept hidden.

Clearly I don't think so and clearly you do.

Note to other players: With this statement Thor attempts to dismiss the argued point without actually coming with valid reasons for doing so. Here is the point he's trying to dismiss:

I was one of your top suspects yesterday. You gave no indication yesterday that your suspicion of my slot changed, even as you hammered Fate. So if I don't get placed on your suspect list on the first post of Day 3, without even a statement like "I feel better about SK now," isn't that a little odd?

By stating that he doesn't think the contested point is odd, Thor attempts to restructure the argument into a difference of belief. Beliefs inherently cannot be contested, as they solely depend on opinion. By making this into an issue of belief, Thor is trying to avoid having to legitimately refute the point. Typically you don't find this behavior coming from a town player.

You're using my "clear belief" of suspecting Fate all Day on Day 2 to paint me scummy.
You're then also saying i don't present my beliefs clearly enough and am scummy for that.

Why are both of those statements true?

I didn't say you didn't have

any

clear beliefs. Just that you had few of them, and even when you did have them you didn't act on them.

And how exactly was I supposed to know my Fate suspicion was the correct course of action until today? I'm not saying my reasoning is perfect.

Well, pushing that would've been more productive than getting "distracted" by massclaim talk. You also have this thing called a vote, which can be used to apply pressure and generate responses from suspects you want to hear about.

What do you see as my reasoning for Fate's scumhood? I actually never presented much of a case on him because a lot of my suspicions on him were gut based, same as my suspicions of you. If I'd presented a giant case on Fate this would make more sense to me, but I really didn't.

You know what...you're right. Going back over your posts again, I don't know how I saw a ginormous Fate case in there, cause now, when I look at it, there's hardly anything there. Let's see how many times you mention Fate in your ISO (excluding Day 3):

I actually think [Socrates] defense towards Fate is pretty decent...

How does this all connect back into your (Socrates) Fate (aka CSL/Saijin/SFG) vote especially since the "starter" of that wagon is Copper?

I think we're you're losing me is when you are then voting Fate...

...and (Copper) offered the alternative of CSL (aka Fate/Saijin/SFG) citing how scummy he looked getting on the wagon.
<snip>
Day 2 opened with some new faces as Socrates (TCC) showed up and got in an early brawl with the other new arrival Fate (CSL/SFG/Saijin) over Fate calling Socrates scummy for TCC's actions and because Socrates is very good as scum.
<snip>
Fate later shifted to Copper due to NK speculation from them and also due to Copper's defense of TCC during Day 1 (which while I will accept possible chainsaw here, since we only have half the equation for a chainsaw I'd rather lynch TCC/Socrates over it rather then Copper who has seemed otherwise fairly townish) meanwhile the camps seem to be drawing up for a Fate or Copper lynch

(I'm on the vote Fate lynch side

if that's the choice though I have not voted yet).
<snip>
I'm not sure how I feel about the Fate/Copper choice being where we're ending up.

Comment on the bolded: up until now, Thor hasn't made anything about Fate regarding a case against him. Yet he says he's on the Lynch Fate side. This could be due to his view that Copper is town, but still, if he has expressed no visible issues with Fate, why is he willing to vote him?

I'm still favoring Copper in the Copper/Fate question. I think whichever head of Copper just posted did a good job in putting out the odd flow of post analysis from Fate there and when that is paired with Sotty calling foul for misreps from Fate it is starting to paint the slot fairly scummy. Definitely near the head of the list for me.
<snip>
I'd like to hear your (Pie) current read on the Fate/Copper question.

Comment: Te puts Fate near the "head of the list" (presumably his scumlist), but his reasons are rather vague (not to mention based on actions from other players). If Fate is genuinely a top suspect, shouldn't he be doing some pushing of his own?

Do you (Socrates) have no opinion whatsoever on the Fate/Charter Sotty/Copper exchanges other then saying it doesn't seem useful? Your name and slot (via TCC) is pretty well enmeshed in that discussion and I'm surprised you don't have an opinion about it especially considering you're currently voting Fate.

I feel more scummish towards Fate and Ray/Kerrigan.
<snip>
I do think Kthx's support of the Copper wagon was pretty weak, but that's about my worst read on him and that paints Fate just as badly in my book since I think he was selling that wagon on weak merits.

I'm not impressed by Fate's soft sell of it (Pie's stance on massclaiming) as scummy (not sitting well), if it makes you feel any better.

I am still where I was at my last update except I'm even more content with my read on the Copper/Fate question.

"If I did something different, would you still think I'm scummy?" What purpose does that serve? SK, did you hope to find some telling reaction from Thor to this question? Hmmm I see Thor hasn't even answered this question. So I'd like you to hold off on answering me until he responds, but I want to hear your thoughts on his response.

As Kerrigan pointed out, this was directed at Copper, not me. If it makes you happy my response would be; no, it wouldn't have affected my current vote if she had maintained her activity levels but had also voted. I can accept the game is difficult to read, but the inability to have added anything at this point seems exceedingly sketchy to me.

I can see SK and Pie as scum, will say why later.

So far though I find SK scummy.

I can see a Soc/Charter/Pie team.

I'm as dumb as a stump so I have to ask...buh? I really can't tell where you're going with all this. Please expound.

I'm intrigued by Fate's movement to the Kerrigan wagon and also his clarification that Pie=Kerrigan in his initial scum chart. This could simply be confusion due to replacements (I know I've had some) but it could also be scum happy for the new wagon to pile on to avoid his own potential lynch.

I like Fate's points on charter as they make a lot of sense.
<snip>
I'm feeling Fate or Kerrigan as the lynch today. I'd like to hear more from Sotty and charter.

Comment: Yet again, no statement (with the possible exception of the first paragraph above) on why Fate is a top lynch that adds to what he's already stated thus far (which hasn't been much). I really would expect more from him on why he considers Fate a viable lynch prospect.

@Fate - though I agree with your little power role list (gunsmith, 2 gun roles, hopefully protective) being a 'little much' I fail to see why we should presume there is a protective role, and gunsmith plus two gun roles seems a reasonable spread.

Are you sticking with Kerrigan simply because you aren't buying her gun claim?

Comment: Interesting that Thor asks Fate the end question when he himself is still voting me.

And then, seven ISO posts (and a goodly amount of days) later, you hammer Fate, at the same time calling him your "other top suspect."

Yeah, I don't know why I had you pegged as putting up a huge Fate case. It clearly isn't there. There's surprisingly little there to suggest how he does make for one of your top suspects. If he was a top suspect, why didn't you push him more? I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time seeing this kind of behavior as town.

[TO BE CONTINUED]

[Thor665]

But how exactly do you interpret "Thor, care to explain what you were doing last night?" as anything other than me saying I tracked you?

Because since I know what I did last night I know that if I'd been tracked you wouldn't have approached me like this. Therefore I saw it as plausible you are a fakeclaimed scum who was fishing to help verify your roleclaim.

So no, the only valid interpretation of my statement is that I tracked you, and I definitely implied that I had something on you.

And again - since I knew that if you had "something" on me via tracking that you had to be lying so it fed back into my belief of you as fakeclaimed Tracker. My basic disagreement is that I was obligated to roleclaim the instant you asked me what I had done last night. No one has come up with any reasoning of why I should have done so (charter basically answered with - "I would have roleclaimed" which via his link he proves he does as scum, so I'm not sure how that makes it either a scum or town tell to roleclaim).

Note to other players: With this statement Thor attempts to dismiss the argued point without actually coming with valid reasons for doing so. Here is the point he's trying to dismiss:

I was one of your top suspects yesterday. You gave no indication yesterday that your suspicion of my slot changed, even as you hammered Fate. So if I don't get placed on your suspect list on the first post of Day 3, without even a statement like "I feel better about SK now," isn't that a little odd?

By stating that he doesn't think the contested point is odd, Thor attempts to restructure the argument into a difference of belief.

You asked me if I thought it was a little odd - I said 'no' how is that me restructuring anything? I specifically answered your question. How could I have possibly answered this in any way that would not have been either an agreement or disagreement of opinion (belief)?

What do you see as my reasoning for Fate's scumhood? I actually never presented much of a case on him because a lot of my suspicions on him were gut based, same as my suspicions of you. If I'd presented a giant case on Fate this would make more sense to me, but I really didn't.

You know what...you're right. Going back over your posts again, I don't know how I saw a ginormous Fate case in there, cause now, when I look at it, there's hardly anything there. Let's see how many times you mention Fate in your ISO (excluding Day 3):

I will note that I believe you are tunneling me to a point you're losing sight of your initial case on me. In an earlier post I was scummy because I voted you on not much and had a giant case on Fate.

Now I point out that I didn't have a giant case on Fate and apparently I'm scummy because I never pressed a giant case on Fate. (which is apparently good, because that would have made me scummy)

If you are town I suggest you relax, because not everything I do has to be scummy for me to be scum. I'll also say from your presented points that I feel it shows scumhunting and opinions from me towards other players and coming out on the side of some major debate points and trying to get others to weigh in as well.

[Socrates]

I haven't caught up in full (conciseness is fricken pro-town, people), but I must say that I feel this SK/Thor thing feels like a red herring.

[Pie_is_good]

Two independent points:

1) SK tracking me to no one is a fairly significant point that's largely being ignored. If we're working off the theory of 3 scum on one team - the most damning scenario for me - and the town seems to believe one of the three scum is busy roleblockin', that leaves a 1/3 chance that me being scum is actually consistent with SK's results.

2) I'm hearing a strong majority pro-massclaim. I say we put discussion on hold and get with the claiming. I say Thor starts and popcorn from there (since he's the general #2 suspect and I've already claimed).

[Thor665]

@Pie - For pro massclaim I know we have myself, you, and SK.
Anti massclaim is Michel

I don't think anyone else has actually weighed in on the question.

When are you expecting to finish your read on Fate?

[SaintKerrigan]

Actually, I switched from pro-MC to anti-MC awhile back. If Michel were scum, I find it unlikely that he would shift the lynch consensus from me to his scumbuddy Fate, even going so far as to declare No Lynch > SK Lynch. I've decided to trust him, and since Michel doesn't want his role revealed at the moment, I won't support an action that forces him to out his role before he's ready.

PART 2

You implied my hammer of him was scummy.

You had Fate as a top suspect for a good part of Day 2, yet you refrain from voting him until one hour before deadline,

and it was a hammer vote at that.

Yeah, I don't know what I was getting at with the bolded. The main point of this remark is that you had Fate as a top suspect yet didn't vote him until the last possible moment. The fact that it was a hammer vote is irrelevant.

So, bottom line: the vote (and the circumstances surrounding it) was scummy, the fact that it was a hammer is not. Does that clear it up?

I put my vote on you because I was following Copper and placing a vote on a slot I had previously said during the Day that I found scummy.

I left it there, as I said Day 2, because I wanted to hear more from other players before moving my vote.

I have also said I was slow to move it off until Michel and Copper were so vociferous against lynching you.

So I feel I have already addressed this, you may feel free to disagree with my beliefs but you can't say I haven't provided them - what do you feel I haven't addressed?

I didn't have a problem with when you initially placed the vote. I certainly wasn't producing content at that time. It was when I started to produce content and you kept your vote on me that things started to get hazy.

Why did you need to hear more from other players before removing your vote?

Alternate explanation: town has a roleblocker who didn't trust you.

To quote Copper: "Are you serious?"

No Lynch is a good idea because there's an even number of people alive. Assuming 2 scum, our lynching odds are either (2/8, 2/6) if we lynch as normal or (2/7, 2/5) if we NL first (this is assuming both mislynches, but if not the logic holds). The second one is better.

Two mislynches in either scenario loses the game. No Lynch gives Michel to the scum for free. Lynch doesn't. Odds don't guarantee us a scumlynch. I think I'll take Lynch, thank you very much.

The game was nearing standstill due to lurkers and replacements. Thorscum could have easily shrugged his shoulders and haphazardly lurkerlynched without garnering suspicion, but instead I got the feeling that he was legitimately encouraging discussion. And if you think taking charge of a town makes you less likely to be lynched, you haven't played very much mafia.

Encouraging discussion doesn't always equal being town. I take it you've played games where town leaders have been lynched and turned out scum?

I further don't buy the Thor wagon because I disagree with the points made against him. I think "you needn't be worried about my results" is a reasonable response to rolefishing, and I haven't noticed the measured neutrality he's been accused of. Like I said, I'm not going to argue those points for him, but I'm going on record as disagreeing.

That's all I was looking for. You don't need to defend Thor, you just need to say why you disagree with his lynch.

You may think it's fun to use anecdotes of the Buffalo Chicken Sandwich to try and make a point, but obscure metaphors don't work well as evidence. I would go so far as to say it's anti-town, since the statements have the potential to be misinterpreted. Once again, I request that you be concise and to the point.

I was just sayin' - Michel is voting me for not being on the Fate wagon, yet hammering Fate isn't exactly winning Thor any capital.

And if "more often than not, scum bus their buddies" - shouldn't not being on the Fate wagon be a point in my favor? Honestly, I get the feeling people are just using the Fate lynch to retroactively find justification for what they already believe.

There's a lot more to Michel's vote than "not being on the Fate wagon," and you know it. And sometimes scum gambles don't pay off.

And "more often than not, scum bus their buddies" does not mean being off a scumwagon makes you more town. It means just because you were on the scumwagon doesn't mean you aren't scum. It has nothing to do with being off a scumwagon and its associated suspicions.

3) Accusing me of trying to tip the SK wagon by first announcing that I was "Shameless Bandwagoning" and then hopping on is quite possibly the laziest argument I've ever heard. For starters, I had spent a big whoppin' post explaining why I was in favor of an SK lynch, and for finishers, I would hope you'd have a bit more faith in Piescum's abilities to expect me to think "I know! I'll try to TRICK the town by PUBLICLY ANNOUNCING THAT THIS IS A SHAMELESS BANDWAGON VOTE."

WIFOM is WIFOM. Saying you wouldn't do something like that as scum doesn't mean you didn't do it as scum. And it's still suspicious.

On a side note, your suspicion of me that day essentially boiled down to "60% RayFrost (actions I can't defend against), 38% wagoning for a claim (changed to "not liking the claim I got" when I pointed out that I had already claimed), and 2% things I actually had done. When asked for specific examples of scummy things I had done, you only provided three things (one of them being based mostly on gut). Everything else I can't defend against, so I can't disprove it. Not to mention you pretty much came up with all this

after

you voted me. So I don't think it's unreasonable to consider your vote for me yesterday suspect.

Because since I know what I did last night I know that if I'd been tracked you wouldn't have approached me like this. Therefore I saw it as plausible you are a fakeclaimed scum who was fishing to help verify your roleclaim.

And again - since I knew that if you had "something" on me via tracking that you had to be lying so it fed back into my belief of you as fakeclaimed Tracker. My basic disagreement is that I was obligated to roleclaim the instant you asked me what I had done last night. No one has come up with any reasoning of why I should have done so (charter basically answered with - "I would have roleclaimed" which via his link he proves he does as scum, so I'm not sure how that makes it either a scum or town tell to roleclaim).

Both of these can be summed up with "If you thought I was faking it, why not call me out on it?" Calling me a liar instantly polarizes the day into SK vs Thor. This ultimately results in my lynch in all scenarios: either I'm lynched first and proven scum, or you're lynched first and by virtue of telling the truth prove me a liar, and I get quicklynched the following day. Isn't a 1-1 trade good for town?

You asked me if I thought it was a little odd - I said 'no' how is that me restructuring anything? I specifically answered your question. How could I have possibly answered this in any way that would not have been either an agreement or disagreement of opinion (belief)?

You didn't say "no." You said, "Clearly I don't think so, and you do," which makes it into a matter of belief instead of a matter of facts.

Let me explain the point again: You vote me yesterday up until one hour before the deadline, and you say nothing that day that indicates you had changed your mind about my scumminess. Opening of Day 3, you list your suspects -- but leave me off the list, despite being your lynch candidate for much of yesterday. You make no explanations as to why I'm off your suspect list. Isn't this odd?

Here's another way to put it: I'm questioning the logical progression of your suspicion of me. You had me as a top suspect yesterday. At the start of Day 3, I'm not even on your list, and there's no explanations why. This does not logically compute. Typically, a townie is able to explain the logical progression from suspicion to suspicion. Scum, on the other hand, are prone to illogical jumps in thought, owing to being opportunistic and not actually following a progression of suspicions. Therefore, when one sees a discontinuity in logic, it is more likely than not that it belongs to scum.

Do you see now why I might think me being a top suspect on D2 and not on the list D3 is a problem?

I will note that I believe you are tunneling me to a point you're losing sight of your initial case on me. In an earlier post I was scummy because I voted you on not much and had a giant case on Fate.

Now I point out that I didn't have a giant case on Fate and apparently I'm scummy because I never pressed a giant case on Fate. (which is apparently good, because that would have made me scummy)

You're right about one thing: I'm spending way too much time looking at you and Pie and not enough checking out other people. So thanks for reminding me of that.

Before, my issue was that you had a good case on Fate but voted me for "lack of content" while putting Fate on the back burner, so to speak. Now that I look and see what you've actually posted regarding a case on Fate, there's surprisingly little there. Yet you had Fate as a top suspect. So now, instead of asking "why did you vote me over Fate for so long," I'm asking "why was Fate a top suspect when there's little evidence to show it?"

Socrates seriously needs to post more. I still don't like how his predecessor behaved, and aside from an early attack on Fate plus a vote for Pie Socrates hasn't being doing a whole lot in my eyes.

[Thor665]

So, bottom line: the vote (and the circumstances surrounding it) was scummy, the fact that it was a hammer is not. Does that clear it up?

I still think my expressed preference for a Kerrigan or Fate vote since early on in Day 2 shows that my votes didn't come out of nowhere. But, yes, I am happier you've now clarified the hammer aspect.

Why did you need to hear more from other players before removing your vote?

You have cited my constant questions as scummy and I cite them as scumhunting. Basically I wanted to hear more from people about the vote because, as I'd said, I wasn't confident of the way Pie had moved onto it. Why wouldn't I want to hear more from other players? You're ending this post I'm responding to requesting to hear more from Socrates.

Again, not everything I do needs to be scummy.

Both of these can be summed up with "If you thought I was faking it, why not call me out on it?" Calling me a liar instantly polarizes the day into SK vs Thor.

As I said - I could see both a town and scum reason for it. I didn't wish to polarize town into Thor vs. SK because I wasn't certain you were scum. I just didn't want to roleclaim nor did I wish to hand you my nightaction as getting you to say it out loud yourself would have cleared you for me and it wouldn't have mattered if I had said anything or not.

You didn't say "no." You said, "Clearly I don't think so, and you do," which makes it into a matter of belief instead of a matter of facts.

Okay - I'll say 'no' now, does this solve the problem? ('Clearly I don't think so translates as 'no' in my universe) But your explanation at least explains what you're looking for so I'll provide it below.

Here's another way to put it: I'm questioning the logical progression of your suspicion of me.

The suspicion went as such.
1. Suspected you Day 2.
2. With Fate's flip and your part in it I am obligated to reassess (much as other people who you and I both agree are town clearly did as they decided not to lynch you)
3. Opening suspicion Day 3 doesn't include you because you're lower then the 3-4 I did list as at this point I'm reasonable on you as town.
4. You perform what I consider possible rolefishing at me.
5. I deny the rolefish because I consider it a potential scummy tactic, I answer the question in a roundabout way and wait for you to declare my actions yourself.
6. You call me scum and claim roleblock.

Before, my issue was that you had a good case on Fate but voted me for "lack of content" while putting Fate on the back burner, so to speak. Now that I look and see what you've actually posted regarding a case on Fate, there's surprisingly little there. Yet you had Fate as a top suspect. So now, instead of asking "why did you vote me over Fate for so long," I'm asking "why was Fate a top suspect when there's little evidence to show it?"

You were both suspects, as I've already said, largely on gut. I went with you first because I really wanted more out of your slot. I stayed with you as long as I did because I had felt you and Ray were scummy and wished to lynch you. I shifted not really because I believed your innocence all that much, but because Copper and Michel whom I thought were both town were so strongly against lynching you I figured, hey, why not lynch my other top guy. I really would have happily lynched you yesterday but for them.

You did also include quotes where I did point out little comments and opinions about Fate's actions that I found scummy and said as much. I pointed out soft sells, I pointed out irregularities in logic, I pointed out how I felt about his case on Soc and Copper. I also was commenting about my attitude for the Ray slot and how I was keeping it on my scum list. My attitude is there, I just never presented a giant case.

[charter]

Pie, did you ever comment on whether you think it's suspicious of Thor how Fate was his top suspect but he didn't vote him or do anything with that until right before deadline?

About the only thing I got from all these megaposts was reading Pie's little defending Thor thing, and then Kerrigan had a quote where you stated your objections to the Thor suspicions and the main reason I'm suspicious of Thor (above) you didn't say anything about.

[Pie_is_good]

Two mislynches in either scenario loses the game. No Lynch gives Michel to the scum for free. Lynch doesn't. Odds don't guarantee us a scumlynch. I think I'll take Lynch, thank you very much.

You are ignoring the teensy fact that assuming Michel to be town is a really dumb thing to do.

To quote Copper: "Are you serious?"

You are ignoring the teensy fact that assuming you to be town is a really even dumber thing to do.

Encouraging discussion doesn't always equal being town. I take it you've played games where town leaders have been lynched and turned out scum?

Of course there have been individual instances where town leaders have been scum. In my experience, statistically, Town Captains are more likely town (especially when their rise to Captaincy mirrors Thor's), but they're lynched WAY more often than they should be.

There's a lot more to Michel's vote than "not being on the Fate wagon," and you know it. And sometimes scum gambles don't pay off.

I know there's more to Michel's case on me than that, but my lack of support for the Fate wagon has certainly been used as a knock against me. The fact that I'm held as scummy for not voting Fate and Thor is held as scummy for hammering Fate leads me to believe people are just seeing what they want to see to confirm their preconception that Thor and I are scummy.

You may think it's fun to use anecdotes of the Buffalo Chicken Sandwich to try and make a point, but obscure metaphors don't work well as evidence. I would go so far as to say it's anti-town, since the statements have the potential to be misinterpreted. Once again, I request that you be concise and to the point.

You're right - I do find it fun - but fun is a fleeting emotion. I tend to believe in the more primitive, visceral joys in life; including, of course, food. This leads me to be split on the issue of heavily-prepared food such as the Buffalo Chicken Sandwich. When it's so processed and prepared - after all, the Buffalo sauce alone is produced using hours of machine labor - can it really be considered of the same class of visceral joy as a nice steak, or pooping? But then I love the concoction that is the Buffalo Chicken Sandwich so, and it seems silly to forgo it for philisophical reasons. Which I suppose begs an even more overarching question: is it ever worth thinking so deeply about the important things in life (such as the Buffalo Chicken Sandwich) that your actual behavior is changed due to an abstract concept? In this way, I am firmly of the opinion that Buffalo Chicken Sandwiches have deep implications for the nature of morality and its coexistence with the cultural norms we are all bound by.

WIFOM is WIFOM. Saying you wouldn't do something like that as scum doesn't mean you didn't do it as scum. And it's still suspicious.

Again, you miss my point. I'm arguing that it's a null tell at best, because even

as

scum trying to *trick* the town into voting SK would be completely ineffective. There's no WIFOM to be spoken of here because I take any action that would help me as scum.

When asked for specific examples of scummy things I had done, you only provided three things (one of them being based mostly on gut). Everything else I can't defend against, so I can't disprove it. Not to mention you pretty much came up with all this after you voted me. So I don't think it's unreasonable to consider your vote for me yesterday suspect.

You're right; you can't defend RayFrost's actions. You're also right that I find "tracker-with-a-gun" fairly damning. You're wrong that I came up with these after voting you; not sure where you got that from.

All this said, it would be super if the rest of the town stopped sitting back and watching SK do their dirty work.