Mini 934 - Troubles at Smiths&Catharts (Game Over!)

[SaintKerrigan]

You are ignoring the teensy fact that assuming Michel to be town is a really dumb thing to do.

Michel was instrumental in getting a Fate-lynch yesterday instead of a me-lynch. Why would Michel-scum do that when it would've been much easier to sit back and let me get steamrolled?

You are ignoring the teensy fact that assuming you to be town is a really even dumber thing to do.

You are ignoring the teensy fact that what you said was utterly ridiculous. Also, how exactly is it dumb for me to assume that I'm town? Or were you insulting the other players who consider me to be town?

I know there's more to Michel's case on me than that, but my lack of support for the Fate wagon has certainly been used as a knock against me. The fact that I'm held as scummy for not voting Fate and Thor is held as scummy for hammering Fate leads me to believe people are just seeing what they want to see to confirm their preconception that Thor and I are scummy.

The points regarding your vote for me/not voting for Fate have to do with the circumstances surrounding them. The issue with Thor's vote also has to do with the circumstances surrounding it. This does not make them contradictory.

More Buffalo Chicken Sandwich crap.

Ok, now you're just trying to piss me off.

Vengekill: Pie_is_good.

Does anyone other than me have a problem with the ambiguous anecdotes?

Again, you miss my point. I'm arguing that it's a null tell at best, because even as scum trying to *trick* the town into voting SK would be completely ineffective. There's no WIFOM to be spoken of here because I take any action that would help me as scum.

I don't believe that. I think you were trying to excuse a scummy action as WIFOM.

You're right; you can't defend RayFrost's actions. You're also right that I find "tracker-with-a-gun" fairly damning. You're wrong that I came up with these after voting you; not sure where you got that from.

Um, how about the fact that you posted every reason I mentioned

after

you placed your vote? That includes your giant humungo post.

All this said, it would be super if the rest of the town stopped sitting back and watching SK do their dirty work.

For once, I have to agree with you.

[Cyberbob]

@Pie - For pro massclaim I know we have myself, you, and SK.
Anti massclaim is Michel

I don't think anyone else has actually weighed in on the question.

I have said that I'm pro-claim, but to be fair it was a long while ago that I said it.

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I can't follow the massive battle of the quotes and textwalls on the previous page, I think posts like that try to do far too much at once and points that might actually be good ones get very easily lost. Less quotes, less attempts at making All-Conquering-Argument-Destroying-Doom-Machines and more readability please.

The one thing I have taken from the previous page was Thor mentioning that Fate consistently had a neutral read of Pie for a long time. That's actually rather a considerable point against Pie; scum will often "read" their buddies as neutral or weakly town/scum because it gives them a lot more leeway to follow the prevailing town opinion without risking unwanted attention for flipflopping (which is ironically what I'm finding myself doing with regards to Thor and Pie).

[Cyberbob]

Also:

I am not "defending" Thor or tying myself to Thor any more than those voting Thor are "attacking" him or un-tying themselves to him.

what

[Pie_is_good]

What?

[Cyberbob]

How is someone who is voting for Thor not attacking him? That's what you're saying in that quote.

[MichelSableheart]

@Pie: why is assuming certain players are town a dumb thing to do? I'm currently assuming SK, Copper and Socrates are town. SK because I don't belief Fate would have attacked a scumbuddy the way she did attack SK at the end of day 2, Copper because of the no gun investigation and overall behaviour, Socrates because CSL vote for TCC day 1 and Fate attack on Socrates early day 2 are unlikely to come from scumbuddies. As post #1075 shows, SK has similar reasons to believe I am town.

@SK: I don't really have a problem with Pie talking about sandwiches. I'm personally not getting the message, but if he wants to talk nonsense, let him be. The only reason why I may consider it scummy is that he could use it to communicate with teammates. Complaining about it probably won't help much though.

What kind of nonsense is that kill? Please don't make jokes like that. Someone might actually consider it true, and overall they cause far too much confusion.

@Thor, Pie: you may have said it before today, but I lost track of your opinions in the long discussions with SK. Would you please be so kind to tell me who you believe is scum, and why?

[Col.Cathart]

Votecount 3.3

With 8 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Let me know, if I made any mistakes.

Pie_is_good (2):

charter, MichelSableheart

Thor665 (2):

Saint Kerrigan, Cyberbob
SaintKerrigan (1): Pie_is_good

not voting (3): Thor665, Socrates, Copper


The deadline is:

Thursday, May 6th at 7:30 PM GMT +1
Countdown

[SaintKerrigan]

@SK: I don't really have a problem with Pie talking about sandwiches. I'm personally not getting the message, but if he wants to talk nonsense, let him be. The only reason why I may consider it scummy is that he could use it to communicate with teammates. Complaining about it probably won't help much though.

I guess you're right that complaining isn't going to help. I just don't like that he's deliberately making anti-town replies to valid lines of questioning. Oh well, another reason to vote him, I guess.

What kind of nonsense is that kill? Please don't make jokes like that. Someone might actually consider it true, and overall they cause far too much confusion.

I thought it was fairly obvious that the kill wasn't serious, especially since I've already claimed that my gun has no special powers. It was merely a way to let out my frustration about the BCS analogues.

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh, and Michel, I would consider Charter town as well. He had a perfect opportunity after my claim to switch wagons without appearing suspicious, but he stuck with Fate. I don't think Charterscum would stay on his buddy's lynch-wagon when a more profitable mislynch was ripe for the taking.

I'm not as sure about Socrates. TCC wasn't playing too terribly well, and I could easily see CSL-scum bussing him to try and pick up some town points. Same with Fate-scum to Socrates.

[Thor665]

@Thor, Pie: you may have said it before today, but I lost track of your opinions in the long discussions with SK. Would you please be so kind to tell me who you believe is scum, and why?

Top suspect is Pie. Current case is bad feelings about his sudden push/vote for SK yesterday, overall paucity of content, and lack of commentary between that slot and Fate.

Secondary is Cyberbob. Current case is the way he voted Fate, said he'd switch to SK to prevent 'no lynch' did so, eventual switch back as SK lynch became no go. Also had an odd connection in Fate's suspicions insomuch as he went from town to neutral to suddenly scum at the 11th hour which I read as potential last minute distancing.

Re: the Buffalo sandwiches. Besides making me want to eat a BFC sandwich I don't get SK's issue. Pie has been using that commentary in the same way one might go 'Bah' to reply to a post. I don't find dismissal pro town but I think it's pretty obvious she's either connecting emotions to it and not reading it clearly, or is overplaying the implications of it.

[Cyberbob]

Pie's sandwichchat doesn't really bother me, it's just a more humourous way of saying "that is fucking ridiculous and doesn't deserve a proper response".

[Cyberbob]

Secondary is Cyberbob. Current case is the way he voted Fate, said he'd switch to SK to prevent 'no lynch' did so, eventual switch back as SK lynch became no go. Also had an odd connection in Fate's suspicions insomuch as he went from town to neutral to suddenly scum at the 11th hour which I read as potential last minute distancing.

I don't see anything wrong with the bit about SK, and the Fate bit is tinfoil hat-level reaching that can probably be attributed to subconscious OMGUS.

[Thor665]

Eh, as far as the bit about SK my argument would be that you basically got to vote your scumbuddy (Fate) which helps distance, and then set yourself up to get on the SK wagon 'to prevent a no lynch' which allowed you to vote her without actually listing any reasons or even connecting yourself to the wagon.

[Thor665]

Also, random thought, how could I have "subconscious OMGUS" if I was scum?

[Copper]

As Socrates said, conciseness is pro-town. I will not indulge in wading knee-deep through the muck of walls seeking to prove a case, and from what I know of my fellow heads no one else has that desire.

Let me give the game away.

Vote:Pie_is_Good

The points on Thor look interesting (I've only skimmed them; this is a different head than the last few posts) and worth visiting tomorrow, but I'd like to crystallize our speculation with a lynch.

Pie has been topping our internal lynch lists (both as Kthnx and himself) since somewhere near the end of D1. And he's not a town power role, which makes him a safe lynch.

I think the best reason to lynch Pie, though, isn't that he's the most likely scum - though that is where all of our thoughts are. It's what it would tell us about events.

Let's dig up some ancient history - the Ythan (now Michel) and NobodySpecial (now Pie) fallout. Remember what I said way back when?

The interactions between Ythan (now Locke), Rayfrost, and Nobody Special (now kthnxbye) need more discussion within the hydra before we can incorporate them in our vote.

I think it's a fairly uncontroversial position that Ythan and Nobody Special/kthnkxbye cannot be scumbuddies, as planning a move like that would have been incredibly unethical.

The pairing of Rayfrost and Ythan is more interesting. I'll leave the vote on Ray for now while we wait for the thread to start up again but after the outburst between him and Ythan I'm not as sure as I was about Rayfrost being scum.

So a pie scumflip will 95% confirm Michel as town.

In terms of evidence that Pie is scum; as said before, I have no desire to vomit out large content walls. Fate's interactions with Kthnx are fairly scummy - talks sometimes ABOUT kthnx but never TO kthnx, and slips him in his 'neutral/would lynch' list without making much of it. Kthnx also does the same thing on CSL - talks about him, but only once to him, and never forwards the idea of him being scum despite being happy to go for a Pom lynch. (This is the point I was harping on late D1/early D2 - that it's odd that low-contribution Pom is getting focused more than no-contribution CSL. That suspicion was right in that CSL was scum, and now we can reap the reverse dividends by finding the players who failed to suspect him D1.)

I think a Pie scum flip would also quell any remaining doubt regarding SK's tracker claim - though at this point I believe it pretty throughly anyway.

[Pie_is_good]

Well, that's spectacularly difficult to respond to. All I can really say is that 90% of that is "It would be really awesome if Pie were scum! Look at all the handy dandy things we would learn!" (and the other 10% is predecessors).

Town supports massclaim but isn't willing to stop talking long enough to get it going. Unless anyone objects, I'd like Thor to kick off the massclaim as soon as he's comfortable with it. Claim and popcorn.

[MichelSableheart]

I'm fine with seeing a massclaim going, but will announce ahead of time that I won't claim my role.

I'm liking the latest Copper post.

Not entirely sure if I agree with SK's post on charter, but it's definately something to keep in mind.

[SaintKerrigan]

Not entirely sure if I agree with SK's post on charter, but it's definately something to keep in mind.

What makes you inclined to disagree with it?

I'm perfectly fine with a Pie lynch today (I believe I have already made a statement to that effect, but restating it doesn't hurt). Once consensus is reached about this lynch wagon, I'll vote him.

I'll agree to Michel's amended massclaim.

So a pie scumflip will 95% confirm Michel as town.

Isn't Michel already confirmed town as it is?

[Thor665]

@Pie - seriously, third time I've asked, when will you have finished re-reading Fate and offer your thoughts on who is scummy?

Isn't Michel already confirmed town as it is?

Only in a situational sense of choosing Fate over you (so for you, perhaps so).

My accounting says we're five for at least an amended massclaim (Pie, me, Cyberbob, SK, Michel) with charter, Copper, and Socrates not having weighed in on the question. That's a plurality of at least 3 to 2 for town wanting massclaim.

Roleclaim: Vanilla

Cyberbob, a bag of popcorn is in your lap now.

[Cyberbob]

I claim vanilla.

Pie, you're up.

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As far as the choice between Thor and Pie (that's what it's more or less come down to for me at this point) that point about Fate's behaviour towards Pie is really resonating with me. At this point I'm probably going to switch over but I don't want to put him at L-1 just yet; I will see if anything comes up in the massclaim.

[Pie_is_good]

I've already claimed vanilla.

Socrates, you're up.

Thor: This weekend, maybe? There are a few things going on this week that are higher priority than mafia, so I'm willing to not lurk but not necessarily go above and beyond the call of duty.

[SaintKerrigan]

Only in a situational sense of choosing Fate over you (so for you, perhaps so).

No, not just that. If Michel is scum, he knows I'm town, and that I'm most likely telling the truth about my claim. Knowing this, having the chance to get a power role lynched and not draw too much fire over it, why would he shift the vote consensus from me to his scumpartner Fate? Sure, scum can bus, but this is way too extreme, in my opinion, nor is it necessary.

The only way you could argue that Michel is scum is if the scumteam is comprised of Michel, Fate, and I. I'm not going to bother to try and find evidence for that possibility, since I know I'm town and I can't see any justification for this pairing anyway.

So, unless the Michel-Fate-SK scumteam possibility gets any serious consideration, the only logical conclusion is that Michel is town.

Saw the Vanilla claim. Pretty much what I was expecting. Still makes me wonder why you didn't just call me out when I claimed you did something, but we've done that argument to death, so I'll leave it alone for the moment.

[Pie_is_good]

Inevitably stupid question: Why is Michel considered confirmed innocent by some?

[SaintKerrigan]

Inevitably stupid question: Why is Michel considered confirmed innocent by some?

Read the preceding post.

[Thor665]

Still makes me wonder why you didn't just call me out when I claimed you did something, but we've done that argument to death, so I'll leave it alone for the moment.

As you bring it up... My answer remains the same, I thought you were rolefishing and wanted to obligate you to actually state what you had tracked. You never actually claimed I had done anything, your post was worded to allow you to back out and I wanted to force you to be decisive on it - you then claimed roleblock.

As far as Michel - sure, though all you did was describe more in depth his choice of Fate over you (and, as I noted, you use evidence of you=town in your discussion which is evidence only you can feel 100% on). I agree with you on the Michel case as presented, I do stand by my belief that it makes him more obviously cleared for you then for other players.