Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Amished]

@CKD: Thank god it's not true this time. I've been so sick of being scum recently that I don't know what I'd do if I hit it again. Probably freak the hell out and claim miller just so I don't have to deal with fuck all later.

I'll try my best to read up tomorrow night (stupid Easter), just wanted to post that I'm here and gonna be pushing the pace, so the rest of you townies should be prepared.

[Amished]

Ok, with my super duper scumhunting in the first 5 pages technique (similar to the 5 point palm exploding heart technique) I will

Unvote
Vote: Seraphim

while also wanting to vote for dybeck.

Sera is obviously scum and it should be clear from just the first 5 pages. dybeck is in the same scum-boat rowing on another oar.

[Amished]

Well, my two candidates are still scum based on posts made since last night.

I'd really like to get a wagon going on either of them right now instead of anybody else; but that being said I haven't seen much else yet.

CKD, Javert, Ojanen and Papa Zito: What are the most significant parts of this game so far in each of your opinions?


Happy Easter!

[Amished]

@Sera/Pom: Oh I will, I'm just finishing up a full read today and gonna put together something tonight in a while.

@Javert:

1.)

Seraphim, I agree that boberz's post was unhelpful and difficult to read. But it is clearly stating an opinion and giving commentary. When you labeled it as IIoA, you were basically calling it scummy, and that is made obvious since you quipped "thanks for confirming your alignment, scum."

My

point is that I do not find that particular post

scummy

, and I do not understand why you seem to think it is.

There is a difference between Town, Pro-Town, Anti-Town, and Scummy. Please try to differentiate between them -- if you aren't used to doing that, I ask that you humor me.

Do you believe that he {Seraphim} was being intentionally vague in trying to push for a (mis-)lynch or that he was honestly confused as to the use of the terms?

[Amished]

Just got to bv actually posting, and I have a 3rd scumspect. Espionage is my 4th. If I needed a fifth it'd probably be NickF.

So therefore I don't think that Richard or boberz is scum.

Boberz (no offense) reads as about the biggest VI ever (and I've played with a lot of VI's).

Javert does make a couple good points about Porochaz. Probably upgrade him to my 5th suspect.

@Sera: What differentiates a scum pbpa from a town pbpa? Why are all pbpa's scummy?

Sera's reaction to boberz does reinforce my position on him. Shortly (edit, I lied, it's not short at all), my case against Sera is this:

First thing that seemed off to me was the seemingly jump into a serious note while instead prolonging the RVS (PZ is obv scum, must be wagoned in ISO 2 to PZ is scum because he's a pirate/said 'arr' in ISO 5.

Really doesn't say anything until Sera votes for Richard in ISO 14 (for no reason, and before the infamous "you all should lynch me" quote from Richard)

I don't want Richard lynched but I do want to see more votes on him. I'm not letting him get away with this 'gambit' bullshit unless he pulls out some analysis. I don't care if he's inexperienced or not, wallowing in self-pity does the town no favors. Under pressure, scum will often pull 'gambits' as a way to take pressure off themselves. Nope. Not gonna happen.

-snip-

Does anyone else see the dichotomy here? Sera doesn't want Richard lynched, but does want more votes on him (???) and Richard said he was pulling a gambit which Sera says scum are more likely to do (so why doesn't Sera want Richard lynched again?)

Depending on what Richard does next, bv may be my next suspect. I may have to read up on his meta because his posts are throwing up red flags.

Ooooookaaaaay, Richard does deserve to be lynched. (This is after asking Jah and bv opinions on Rich in ISO 19, and then in ISO 20 asking for clarification on bv's position after bv responds to ISO 19)

ISO 22 is also a classic, so let me bold the important parts:

FoS: All 'lurker hunters'

I don't know how many of you are scum or not

. All I know is that your crusade is not helping anyone and is getting on my nerves.

It's not scum hunting because you have no reason to believe DocPotter is scum

. If he doesn't post today, he'll be replaced. Big effing deal. It's the first week of the first Day. By focusing solely on the lurkers, you are acting like them by not participating in the game and giving us little or no read on you. Use your vote to hunt possible suspects and let the mod do his job.

Anon's recap post is terrible.

Richard is not an 'easy target', Richard is a player with strange anti-town behavior that needs more consideration and more pressure. He's been backpedalling and doing all sorts of scummy stuff. Not to mention jumping on a wagon based on the RVS based on this craplogic is very bad. Very bad. I wouldn't doubt that if Andrew is scum, Anon is scum with him.

dybeck, why ABR?

If I had another vote, I would be voting bv310. He's straddling the fence like a horny anteater. He's still voting Porochaz for 'extending the RVS'. Bullshit. Not to mention, as stated earlier, his posts just scream scum to me.

First bolded: FoS'ing people that essentially want activity from all players; especially when not even bothering to look at the motivations behind each of the posts asking for lurkers to be poked with a sharp stick. Suspicion of a group without regard to pro-townieness/scumminess? riiiight

Second bolded: singling out a single lurker asking if they were scum. This does not seem sincere at all: it's a sweeping generalization about why people are voting for lurkers. Even if it's "not scumhunting" it is progressing the game.

Third bolded: This is the best of them all: Richard is anti-town, and then he's scum (which is largely for the same behavior that richard has been doing all game, and previously Sera didn't want him lynched)

Oh, and what happened to that bv hate? Oh, it comes up herewhere he accuses bv of not taking a serious stand on anything; but just goes on with his regularly scheduled program of pushing what I feel he knows to be a Richard mislynch. Like so:

Please explain, since you are such an expert at reading players, why he backpedaled and then said his 'lynch me now' statement was a gambit.

All of which has been said previously comes from scum. This continues in ISO 27 and ISO 28

Finally Sera decides that the wagon on Richard isn't going to go through so he puts a "case" together on bv here

Oh, and just forget about Sera's whole first portion of the game where he was pushing for a lynch of Richard because:

I just feel like Richard is exhibiting VI behavior.

Also, my feelings towards the wagon are influenced by the fact that my major suspect(bv) in on there along with a few other players I have questionable reads on.

Richard: summarize your play so far in the game in five words or less.

Also, why is Faraday scum?

O RLY? Must've been a pretty convincing VI since you said he was scum throughout the game until that point.

Sera's still not done attacking Richard (since he's a VI, right?) in ISO 44 and ISO 45

His extended case against BV looks forced at this point (linky especially the part about "PZ is vig" (this is stupidity, that statement was not alignment indicative) and the "bv brought up his lurker meta, but hasn't lurked" (oookay, so why is this scummy?) and finally for "attacking richard a lot".

Yes, read that last line again. Attacking richard a lot is now a scumtell (apparently).

Don't forget to combine these gems of wisdom:

-snip-

Still, I feel like bv310 is the place to be. My gut and my head are in agreement.

While bv has not done much to decrease his scumminess, I think he is more likely to be town than I originally thought.

I think both the Espeonage and Nick wagons warrant further investigation.

Seeing as the Nick wagon is based on a really strange contradictory statement he made, I will wait for him to explain himself. In the meantime, time to check up on this Espeonage guy...

He's {bv} absolute scum, Sera's head and gut are in agreement, but he's likely to be town.....

Also:

-snip-

Second point: bv wagon = Papa Zito, Anon, Seraphim, Espeonage, farside22, curiouskarmadog, RichardGHP

hmmm...if we assume I'm town, I feel the town is the majority here. Richard is VI, I think. That doesn't excuse his play but that's what I'm feeling right now. That's likely to change if he doesn't get off his lazy ass and post. Espeonage is most likely to be bussing scum...I don't get that feeling from Richard.

I'm not letting bv310 off the hook...I'm just ensuring that I'm not ignoring what else is happening in the game. Also, I've been looking at the bv wagon and a lot of the scummier players in the game are on it. This has caused me to doubt the wagon's validity.

Wait, what? This is the wagon on bv about 17 hours after Sera's post, and no votes or unvotes occurred during that period (early page 22 to first post page 23)

bv310 (7) -- Papa Zito, Anon, Seraphim, Espeonage, farside22, curiouskarmadog, RichardGHP

Hmm, looks like the same wagon to me. Wonder what changed here... (hint, it's nothing, and Sera is looking for any reason not to lynch his partner bv on Day 1)

Then throw in the "boberz post is IIoA" "oh wait it isn't" "hmm, they're still not helpful to the town and therefore boberz is still scum" that Javert pointed out recently.

tl; dr version: Sera is scum because he pushed hard on somebody he truly didn't believe was scum (Richard) and flip-flopped on bv for absolutely no reason other than he doesn't want his partner bv lynched. He also doesn't believe in boberz being scum.

Finally, in the time I've been putting this together:

/slaps both boberz and Richard

Cut that crap out. Neither of you are making decent points and you're just spamming for spams sake.

I'm done for a while, that wiped me out and I can barely see anymore. I might post something on dybeck later for being scum with bv and seraphim.

[Amished]

@Sera: So if there's no difference between a scum PBPA and a town (admittedly anti-town) PBPA, how do you really justify a vote based on that? I ISO'd you pretty hard and you didn't even talk about boberz until the pbpa thing. It's because of this that I feel that you don't really think that boberz is scum since you can't differentiate between town and scum pbpa's and you're now going after somebody regardless of their alignment over one isolated incident.

As to Richard, (estimation here); I'd say most of your posts that were over one line were in relation to him for the longest time. I've documented your changes of heart over "he's doing scummy behavior, but he's a VI, but every time I've seen this behavior before it's been by scum" crap that you had throughout the day.

Besides, bv is my third most wanted dead. If I can't get you lynched, I'll judge my time left to see if I can get dybeck lynched otherwise I'll hop on bv's wagon. As there's 4 days (I was told deadline is the 8th even with me just replacing in) to deadline it's probably not possible but I want to push my top suspect first.

[Amished]

@Sera: From the tone of your posts lately it seems like you should be voting for boberz; and I don't know why you aren't given how much you talked about him. I don't see how

While bv has not done much to decrease his scumminess, I think he is more likely to be town than I originally thought. I think both the Espeonage and Nick wagons warrant further investigation.

someone who is more likely to be town (but still scum?)

Read the original quote again. Nice misrep, BTW. I said he was MORE LIKELY. Not LIKELY. I said MORE LIKELY. Big difference does that modifier make.

would be less scummy than somebody who's done pbpa's, made a critical defense of whom you were attacking to "derail the wagon" and from what you've said (or not said) hasn't really done anything pro-town.

Oh, and you still haven't explained this little gem:

Also:

-snip-

Second point: bv wagon = Papa Zito, Anon, Seraphim, Espeonage, farside22, curiouskarmadog, RichardGHP

hmmm...if we assume I'm town, I feel the town is the majority here.

Richard is VI, I think. That doesn't excuse his play but that's what I'm feeling right now. That's likely to change if he doesn't get off his lazy ass and post. Espeonage is most likely to be bussing scum...I don't get that feeling from Richard.

I'm not letting bv310 off the hook...I'm just ensuring that I'm not ignoring what else is happening in the game.

Also, I've been looking at the bv wagon and a lot of the scummier players in the game are on it.

This has caused me to doubt the wagon's validity.

Wait, what? This is the wagon on bv about 17 hours after Sera's post, and no votes or unvotes occurred during that period (early page 22 to first post page 23)

bv310 (7) -- Papa Zito, Anon, Seraphim, Espeonage, farside22, curiouskarmadog, RichardGHP

Finally: let me ask you: what motivation would boberz scum have in saying what he did if bv were his partner? Is he trying to protect a fake-claim with that? Something that no scum team ever sets up for day 1? I'm not buying it at all and that is the exact reason why I'm not voting for boberz. The more I think about it I'm getting less and less willing to vote for bv as well.

[Amished]

@dybeck: That's the feeling that I'm getting

[Amished]

@farside: I replaced into that game with ckd and richard on day 3 or so, and from replacing in here, the feel of Richard seems really similar. I haven't done any extensive meta or anything of him, but his overreactions that seem over the top for anybody else and sulking fit what I know of him. Other than that, I haven't seen anything that just jumps out as scummy to me.

How much do you think you get buddied overall by town and/or scum? (town that just get a good read on you and scum that know you're town in one form or another)

I need to look over pom for once cause from my limited experience with her I've been rather successful in determining her alignment with very little to go on.

[Amished]

Pom wouldn't be my first choice now that I've read her in ISO, but I'd switch to her to get a lynch done. Cause there's no half the number required to lynch or anything like that. It's a full majority or nothing.

[Amished]

@farside: Now that you mention it, I'm much more likely to buddy as scum than as town; so I see where you're coming from.

One more question: how much have you played with Pom?

[Amished]

@farside: Ok, based on that I'd be up for a Pom lynch over bv or richard since those are the two major wagons at this point. I've seen her as each alignment only once but I remember her as town as a bit more vocal, irregardless of v/la.

If more people don't weigh in on Sera in the next... 7 hours or so (midnight my time) I'll switch over to get a lynch done.

[Amished]

@farside: I completely agree with 782. Though that's the same feeling that I got from him (and ckd did too) in that large. Even though he was tracked to roleblock a confirmed scum (I think that's how it went down) he still came under a lot of fire cause he was pretty useless and loud otherwise.

That's pretty much the only reason I don't vote him, cause he's so similar to my only experience with his town game; and he doesn't seem the type to be able to mask his game as much at this point in his mafia career.

[Amished]

@Sando: So pick an order. You're the only one on Dybeck, so that's not really going anywhere, unfortunately.

[Amished]

Well, by order I meant pick somebody that didn't only have you voting for them and vote for the new person instead.

[Amished]

Well, with.. 2.5? days to deadline unless you start something convincing *now* it's really a waste of time in my eyes. Especially since there's no plurality voting rule or anything and we need to get something going.

Unfortunately, nobody was around/commented on Sera-scum; so I shall

Unvote
Vote: Pomegranate

[Amished]

Oh, well then. There goes my theory that bv was a neighbor or lover or something with boberz. Now the question is if my gut was due to him {bv} being scum or stupid.. Meh, probably both.

Unvote:
Vote: bv130

[Amished]

lol, because of a case on you, you think that you won't be nk'd? You had.. what, 3? people on your wagon tops? And that was only after *I* joined in? Yeah, that's sure to keep you from being nk'd if you were town.

It's a good thing you're not town; maybe a vig will see that as well.

[Amished]

No you aren't.

[Amished]

So.. why didn't the Pom wagon take off again?

[Amished]

@Pom: The only thing that gave me pause before voting you now was how easily the wagon grew today. I need to be able to spend more time looking at today but just going off my feelings yesterday I'd say claim.

Also, your reaction to ABR who was a pretty constant supporter of your lynch yesterday as somebody who wants to ride out your death to a town lynch couldn't be further from the truth and pretty blatantly misremembering the facts which aren't that confusing.

Vote: Pomegranate

[Amished]

EBWOP: Nick and dybeck should still die.

[Amished]

Pom's claim is bullshit, the "weak" version isn't classified as a hider, and I claimed hider as scum in NY92 in an attempt to buy another day and "clear" some people (stupid cop investigations *shakes fist*). Leaving her alive just creates WIFOM and she's full of it anyways.

@Mod: V/LA until Monday the 19th

I'll try to keep up but no promises, gogo vacation

[Amished]

Looks like I didn't miss much.

At this point I'm wondering why Pom isn't lynched, and if she isn't going to be then why is dybeck is still alive?

[Amished]

I think Pom's claim is bullshit, a hider isn't that confusing at all; and the weak version of her claimed abilities isn't even a hider. She could still be night-killed if she's hiding? Are you seriously believing that? That is not a hider.

Her role possibly might be a weak cop type thing but it's still a useless role and just leads to confusion if she says who's she's hiding behind (then scum could take her out as well as somebody else) or falsely implicate somebody by killing her and not the target?

dybeck has been scummy as hell throughout the game and sets off my gut-scum at every post. Nothing he says has lead me to believe that he really believes in anything or that he's scumhunting off the top of my head. He was one of my top suspects yesterday and he continues to be today.

[Amished]

With your "weak" mode, you'd know that you could be nk'd in multiple ways so you still need to breadcrumb as a hider to make sure you're not useless in case you die. However, you didn't do anything to help confirm an action that you say you did; nor be useful as a townie if you are what you say you are.

[Amished]

address the pom issue by voting her.

[Amished]

LaL.

Lynch. Now.

[Amished]

Oh, Sera asked me a question, I knew there was something I was forgetting:

There are more pressing matters to me right now. You're still on my radar, but Pom is easier scum; and this way I have more time to evaluate you.

[Amished]

Pom: It's still not that hard to figure out a good strategy/tactic with common roles. If you're unsure, then you can look at how other people played said *common* roles. You using ignorance is not an excuse to not know how to play.

Also, Porochaz still not wanting to hammer Pome? Seriously? If there hasn't been somebody as scummy as Pom around I'm sure he'd do more. However, we have caught scum, what more do you need from a slot other than voting it?

[Amished]

Still want a Richard lynch but want an explanation from Pom.

vote Pom

Reading up on Esp as well.

Vote: RichardGHP

[Amished]

... This is why I hate large games, I forget about all the scummy people that I want to dayvig from the day(s) before.

Unvote
Vote: Sando

I want dybeck to still eat a curb for his discussion that will probably help to out current power roles. Seriously, STFU.

Sando is for the reason ABR brought up (the "theory" and going against it), since that really rings true for my scum game as well.

[Amished]

I want dybeck to still eat a curb for his discussion that will probably help to out current power roles. Seriously, STFU.

You're basing this upon what, exactly?

If mafia are getting night results from our investigators, etc, as I suspect, then some caution in the way they're used will conceal power roles, not out them.

Scum have a lot more info than we do. They don't seem to be doing a bad job of lynching/NKing our power roles so far - let's try and stem that tide.

PRs are responsible for not outing themselves - everyone just needs to be a bit sensible in what they say.

You think scum don't know who the town is? Really? Are you that blind?

[Amished]

People to lynch list:
Sando
dybeck
Espy

Sera is close in there for my early suspicions but with everything else lately he's had to drop down more due to other people being more scummy. Nick looks like VI and an easy target (which is why I'm uneasy about Sera attacking him on this page with a weak case)

[Amished]

Yup. Esp is also scum, Nick is town.

[Amished]

Yup. Esp is also scum, Nick is town.

You're wrong on both counts. Even if I were scum, how would that clear Nick?

Vote Espeonage

I'd be so fucking shocked if this post came from ANYONE but scum.

Agreed.

Still like the Sando lynch (what has he done that hints that he's even town?) and the dybeck/Esp. lynch.

Agree with Jah that Nick still looks town

@Espy: Because you're scum, I expect you to ultimately go for mislynches. Since Sando was gaining traction, and you vote for Nick it both implicates Sando as your partner and tells me that Nick isn't part of your scum team.

ABR, we'll get to dybeck soon. Come back where the fire is warm and toasty

[Amished]

esp is a poor wagon.....the pressure needs to be on ABR or back on Sando if you bastards dont see how scummy ABR is

What makes you think esp is town? I don't see that at all.

[Amished]

If esp is a poor wagon, that would imply that you don't think the wagon is on scum, right?

[Amished]

Soooo, since a lot of people are talking about esp being scum (and their top pick due to a vote for a couple); why not form your own opinion while the game is slow?

[Amished]

@ABR: Me either.

@ckd: I've said that I thought Nick was town due to other people's interactions with him, ABR I also think is town. If you don't want to give an opinion, just say so but don't try to accuse me of not giving one when not asked for one like you have.

[Amished]

Fine.

@Esp: What exactly did you agree with Seraphim about with his case on Nick? All of it? Parts? Which parts?

[Amished]

then form a goddamn opinion to give. Jesus H. Christ.

[Amished]

I noticed something was said about my interaction with ckd:

There were people being prodded, and the thread was absolutely dead. I saw a statement that I wanted clarified and it didn't happen. With it being so dead, it doesn't really seem that hard to do a quick iso and say something along the lines of .. whatever, really. Just to get an opinion out there, I know there are people who I haven't directly commented on but if asked I'd take a quick look and tell you how it stood if I had the time sit at my computer and refresh to see if there was a response to my post.

[Amished]

So what do you feel you were doing to actively scumhunt (specifically yesterday) to lead us away from a power role?

[Amished]

Unvote

Need time to check the claim and question. Ugh.

[Amished]

Why did you decide to track dybeck and cop ckd? Both targets and why did you choose said actions for each person?

[Amished]

Vote: Sando

Works for me.

[Amished]

@ABR: Why did you go after Pom so hard D2 if you got no result and her hider claim fit with your investigation?

[Amished]

Makes sense to me. My guess is that your weak mode is easily influenced by outside factors but your strong mode probably would've seen through her hide; much like her claimed weak mode would still allow her to die if she were targeted with a NK.

[Amished]

Vote: dybeck

ABR: Results?

[Amished]

ABR, I liked you better when you only posted like once a day saying we should lynch somebody. Go back to that.

[Amished]

There's still two killing roles out there in one form or another (PZ-vig died N1; 2 kills N2; I believe that a kill of ABR was blocked last night which is why I still don't see his wagon as anything but opportunistic scum (oh hey, look, it's Espy and Dybeck...)).

@ Javert: Do you think dybeck is scum on his own merits, not counting a connection to Sando? (the line of thought should be pretty clear here)

[Amished]

I was leading down the road that if Javert didn't think dybeck was scum *with* Sando/bv; then I was going to try to put something together that dybeck would be the SK. I don't know what sort of scum dybeck is, but it doesn't really matter to me.

[Amished]

For one of your points that I saw, Javert: I analyzed the Porochaz kill because Poro wasn't exactly topping my "pro-town" list. Also, with only one kill on N1 I figured that Porochaz was responsible for blocking one of the kills (since there were 2 on N2). Obviously a hider or other unknown night actions could be responsible but I try not to deal with "maybes". Especially with a Jailkeeper (which I tend to like as a role overall), my experience seeing them is that they breadcrumb or are otherwise very obvious with who they jailkept the night before. Richard seemed like an obvious mislynch just knowing his style and with all the hate against him on D1. I assumed that Richard was who our mafia group sent to kill (already dead weight, might as well not risk implicating anybody else with a potential tracker or watcher). That's the reason for that kill.

For your questions:
i) Between SK and mafia group? SK, 100%. It both eliminates an anti-town night kill and gives more time to look for connections between scum (4-1-15; 5-1-14 are both options at this point, though now that I think about it, an SK in a game this size would probably have a NK-immunity and that could've accounted for a lack of NK too)

ii) Oh, handy dandy, refer to the top of the post.

iii) I have no idea if dybeck is scum with anybody. The only time I ever see connective tells is when it's obvious that one scum is attacking one person for something, but giving a pass to a scummate for doing the same thing (lurking, or active lurking is an obvious example). I've always been better off with scumhunting by finding solo-"tells" than connections; so I just make a case based on the person that I'm attacking. It both yields me better results and doesn't allow for scum distancing or buddying which I have a hard time discerning.

@Jahudo: I don't have a formal case on dybeck, he's somebody that I've felt was scummy pretty much the entire game. If you want me to go back and point out what was particularly scummy of him, I'll be glad to.

[Amished]

ABR is a psychopath. Ignore him except his votes. Honestly, that's really the only way to deal with him.

[Amished]

-snip-

I have read today properly and I am really worried that ABR is dominating conversation too much considering most cannot conceive of scum doing it.

I think Javert was good to move towards AMished, but tbh I dont see it.

I am worried that nobody else commented on this, presumably they wanted to see how the conversation developed and avoid having their opinions nailed down. Bad.

What are you trying to say with the bolded?

[Amished]

@boberz: So you thought I was possibly scummy before and wanted somebody to question me?

[Amished]

I will say that yes Sando could have tried the ole X is scum therefore my vote but that rarely works. I fake claimed cop once and said I got town on someone I knew was town and everyone thought the player was my scum partner.
He was town.
Nick is a mafia teams wet dream of VI's.

What she said.

Javert, do you only look for associative tells?

How is bv and Nick associated then?

[Amished]

Boberz: it was just a weird sentiment that you expressed, I wanted to know your reasoning behind it.

If you wanted discussion moved somewhere, why didn't you move it yourself?

[Amished]

So if there's one way/person that you're not sure of now that you seem to be less busy; who would you choose to push/question to get a better read on/whatever?

[Amished]

What made you change your mind, dybeck?

[Amished]

I forgot it because I have had other things on my mind besides this game and my involvement has honestly been half-assed. This game has been moving at the speed of molasses and it seems like the town has not been moving in a worthwhile direction for a while now.

Hopefully some rereads on key wagons will change that.

I still think it's possible for Nick to be scum...it's entirely possible that Sando's vote was distancing/bussing rather than just a simple counter-wagon.

Espy...I need to reread Espy, I'm starting to wonder if he's town.

dybeck might be scum too...same with Amished.

I think I will reread all of them and post an analysis of their play once I am done testing, possibly even tomorrow depending on my time constraints. Try and get myself back in this game.

NEWS FLASH! LURKER SAYS EVERYONE MIGHT BE SCUM! MORE AS THE STORY BREAKS!

[Amished]

So I'm scum even though I've never lynched a townie, was a counterwagon at one point, and I've been targeted by scummier people?

K.

You do realise that at this point in the game your first point is probably not a good thing.

How is that not a good thing? I just got done with a mini and I cleared a person because they lynched two scum and was off of two townie lynches.

Unvote
Vote: Espeonage

I don't have the ambition to push dybeck; so I'll settle for my second suspect.

[Amished]

@ckd: I wanted your opinion; do you really have to be a dick about it? Is it because I was pressing you for a hard stance that you decided to vote for me?

@OJ: You mean how I wasn't in the game until 6 vote counts from the end of your analysis? Where I then attacked Seraphim for 3 of the 6; and moved to Pom where you also were for a votecount in there? Also, if you're town, you're criticizing other people for doing what you did before you did it (voting Pom)? How does that follow, logically? The last time I saw somebody pushing logic like that it wasn't from a townie. I'd really like the explanation behind that.

OJ's votecount is about the only thing that I've seen from Espy that makes me have a doubt that he's not scum. However, 1560 is pretty freaking hilarious.

Unvote
Vote: Seraphim

I was right! At least we still lynched scum D1.

/waits for OJ to say that I was early bussing a partner

[Amished]

@OJ: You mean how I wasn't in the game until 6 vote counts from the end of your analysis? Where I then attacked Seraphim for 3 of the 6; and moved to Pom where you also were for a votecount in there? Also, if you're town, you're criticizing other people for doing what you did before you did it (voting Pom)? How does that follow, logically? The last time I saw somebody pushing logic like that it wasn't from a townie. I'd really like the explanation behind that.

D1 Deadline in 2 days:

RichardGHP

(7) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

bv310

, NickF227,

Pomegranate

, boberz,

Sando

bv310

(5) --

Papa Zito

, Seraphim, Espeonage, curiouskarmadog,

Anon

Espeonage (1) --

Ojanen

Seraphim (1) -- Javert
boberz (2) -- dybeck,

RichardGHP

Pomegranate

(4) --

farside22

, Albert B. Rampage, Jahudo, Amished
Not voting: Nobody


At this point a lot of people have been talking about Richard VI, not scum. Despite still having the most votes, it has clearly the least momentum. It's a dying wagon. For a moment it could swing Pom or bv (page 33). A collapse on bv then happens.
I would be surprised if everyone on Pom was town.
Yes, I did get on Pom. (After bv was already on L-1, might I add.)
It's a complete load of tosh that there's something hypocritical about me thinking her wagon has a bigger than average chance of having some scum on it.

/waits for OJ to say that I was early bussing a partner

Clarify what you're referring to (Sando?) and why you felt compelled to say this.

Ok, I'll put out both possibilities: everyone on Pom was town (as scum behavior is inherently unpredictable; else they'd be caught doing something utterly predictable) or one (or more!) person(s) on Pom other than I is scum. Farside, ABR and Jahudo are all still alive as well as me; what about them?

I will repeat what I said in the other game that I mentioned before about people trying to push wagon analysis further than it can be pushed: You have no idea what the scum as a group has in mind. They could all be scum of an unrevealed faction; or they could all be townies. No amount of statistics will ever be a sole predictor of scum behavior. Perhaps the scum were still on Richard despite it being a dying wagon, perhaps they were already bussing BV to try to gain town cred; perhaps they were pushing their own scum cases to stay out of a sticky situation.

You've been scum before, you know that your plans can go right out the window if a day starts wrong or changes halfway through to something unpredicted. I will not stand by idly while stupid accusations without anything else being brought before me if you actually wanted to make a case. Gut does not constitute a case. One vote analysis that has me not voting for two competing wagons while I wasn't in the game for a significant part of the time is not a case.

Put up or shut up.

That last sentence goes to you too, ckd.

The last paragraph refers to you apparently going out of your way to try to show that something that can't really be analyzed (one point of data; since you're mostly harping on the fact that I voted for Pom) through a vote analysis; so I'd expect you to try to twist my recent vote for Seraphim (pretty much caught scum at this point) and my initial vote for Seraphim into scum distancing for some unknown, stupid reason.

[Amished]

I was scum with you-town in LOST (didn't use votecounts as that implicated who I replaced) and scum with you-town in Mafia 107 (where I didn't use votecounts as that implicated who I replaced as well). 107 is the same one that I was referring to when I was arguing with your SK-neighbor Konowa about wagon analysis near the end of the game (when both scum were on the wagon he was talking about, yet he cleared my scum buddy for being on it as well).

The only game that I've used wagon analysis as an *addendum* to what I've thought about otherwise was when I helped to clear DDD in my mind in this game. Otherwise I caught scum after I was dead just through wagon analysis in a game over a year ago. I've seen it used as a primary tool wrongly too many times to make a judgment call solely based on that.

Counterwagons to scum I generally look towards as a good indicator of non-scum in single-*group-scum* games. If I pay attention enough (which I haven't especially been here; not to the normal standard that I hold myself to, anyways) or if somebody brings it up. If Richard were still alive I don't see me having pushed against his anti-town antics as scum motivated because of the drawn out controversy of that lynch; but I couldn't tell you who (if anybody) was a counter wagon to Sando. IIRC, he was pretty much rung up over the course of the day; but I could be wrong as well.

[Amished]

@OJ: Oh yeah, that's right. Farside is confirmed town; good deal.

Sadface that ABR is townier than me, but whatever.

Sando was in the back of my mind D1; but I don't mention him. I dare you to find my position on a lot of players in this game regarding how scummy they are. I really only push at certain people so that everyone else isn't going in multiple directions; one of the things I learned from reading about ABR, actually.

I think since the mafia isn't named; I don't find a second *group* faction likely. If PZ vigged Pom (and missed? I thought if she hid in weak mode; she could still be targeted for a NK; for whomever brought that up) I wouldn't have thought that there's a vig in the game. I don't believe that there's two vigs in the game, so since there were two NK's on N2; there must be a second non-town killing role (i.e. an SK).

I don't know where their kills went on N1 or N3; but with a vig down on N1 and two deaths N2, they're out there somewhere.

[Amished]

Oh, that was another thing I wanted to ask! Thanks farside <3

OJ: Other than not liking me; what other conclusions have you drawn from your analysis, if any?

[Amished]

Ah, that would explain it too, ABR. Anon did seem like a weird scum-kill

[Amished]

After reading bv and sando in iso. I have come to the conclusion that Sera may be town (shocking right) and CKD is so town it hurts.

I don't like how Sando comes to bobz defense

when I attacked him on his stance day 1 with bv.
Also Sando is buddy up to OJ so much it leans me to town area for OJ (yeah even more shocking)

Reading sando's case on dybeck felt weak.

Almost felt like weak scum bussing but if he was going to buss why not attack bv.
I'm going to ponder this a bit as I read a few other suspects.

(bolding what I wanted to point out)

I could buy bob-scum. Since the delayed kill being attributed to a weak vig (which makes perfect sense, not sure why I didn't think of it sooner); the scum group would be a bit bigger than I normally look at in a large (since there's so often two scumgroups). 20 people, I could see 5 or 6.. hold on (feel free to ignore my way of typically looking at a balancing act for games)

Assuming 5 scum:
15-5 D1
14-5 N1 mislynch
12-5 D2 (mafia NK and 1/2 of vig shots, assuming worst case vig scenario)
11-5 N2
9-5 D3 (nk, 2/2 vig shots)
8-5 N3 (mislynch)
7-5 D4 and mylo territory

6 scum:
14-6
13-6
11-6 D2
10-6
8-6 D3 mylo. This only gives 2 mislynches to a town; 6 seems too high in that perspective then.

Ok, now moving on, dealing with 5 scum: We have 3 left. Dybeck has always been there (<3 farside); the Sando thing (like I said, I don't look for connections; Javert has more experience there than me so I'd like him to weigh in on that interaction as well) would make sense (we've lynched goons, that could've weighed in on Sando's mind; bussing a goon rather than some sort of power role).

Going back to my first point, this recent conversation that I had with bob feels like conversations I have with Sotty-scum (from other games, drawing personal comparison). I always seem to question her about something that feels off and her explanations just make me forget about her; and this recently burnt me so it's fresh in my memory. I know it's hard to convince (and harder to put into words) but the initial form of what bob said just really felt off to me.

If we can go with those two as scum (still need to put together that dybeck case.. stupid summer); then only one of Espy and Sera *could* be scum. The initial counterwagon people that OJ brought up is enough (for me) to discount Espy as scum. If we can assume bob is scum; just from recent events I'd say that Sera is town..

Unvote

Farside: what did you see between 1596 and 1597 that changed your mind on Sera? This game is kinda running together for me and you're confirmed town.

Going through and crossing out my town reads/bob and dybeck: really only is left with NickF (who reads as newb-town yet) and ... Jahudo. Hmm.

I still feel the strongest about

Vote: dybeck

Another game just went to night so I should have enough time to put something together finally.

[Amished]

Hmm, I've had bad town days before; I could see it. Course, the only time I missed a votecount I was scum (ABR replaced me that game...)

I'm torn, still makes him less juicy than other targets if I'm that conflicted IMO.

Mostly I'm just happy that your analysis of other people is lining up with what I've kinda been saying for most of the game (or at least thought I said... >_>)

[Amished]

@ckd: ABR's theory that PZ's probable weak mode kill delayed it by a night. That would explain why there hasn't been another night with two NK's as PZ was killed on N1. My balance "equation" would be from a mod perspective since you can't count on the vig dying N1 and only getting one kill.

Faraday's comment about weak-mode hider being a worst case hide behind scum death would put D4 (worst case 5 player scum team) in solid lylo instead of mylo (still granting 3 mislynches) makes tons of sense too. (Jailkeeper has a chance to save/block a kill too, so that could counteract the weak-mode hider playing "bad"; still puts a mylo on D4 under worst case, but doesn't really support a 6 player scumteam.

Everything does point to a 5 person scumteam (no third party) from what's flipped and happened so far in my eyes.

For me, having part of my townish-leans based on farside being confirmed town (Pom weak-mode hider hid behind farside N1; Pom would've died had she hid behind scum) and being able to trust her reads completely which helps a lot (and something that I had forgotten about until recently).

So, for the whole list (since nobody really listens to me anyways, excluding myself for obvious reasons)

2) farside22 - confirmed town

3) Jahudo - faded into the background on me, nothing scummy has stuck out, but nothing protown either.

4) boberz (replacing Snow_Bunny) weird read to me; the "praise" (my word) of Javert questioning me and then placating me with the responses *feels* like scum. Can't think of anything really pro-town here either.

5) dybeck - top scum candidate for a while; has done absolutely nothing pro-town (case coming)

6) Seraphim - tentative town, I flip flop on him, and I think I know why. Bussing evidence from farside has me flipping towards town read.

12) Espeonage - wagon analysis from OJ suggests town. Hasn't done much beyond that though; could see easy target trying to be mislynched or bad scum. Personal read is scummy/lazy; wagon "says" town. Jury out, needs reread. Just from hard evidence at hand I'll say town for a stance.

14) NickF227 - Newbtown

15) Javert (replacing Bio Hazard) - stronger town read; actually up there with ABR for a town read to me. Could be good play, not thinking so atm.

17) Ojanen (replacing DocPotter) - I think what suggests to me most that she's town is the fact that she brought up that farside is confirmed town. Scum try to deal with confirmed town and if OJ is scum, she'd say something and make that a priority target. Two other night-kills later and farside is alive? I'd go with OJ town.

18) Faraday - this is more of a feel/one sided meta read of town. I hydra'd with him and his actions haven't stood out to me this game or the game I was in with him before.

19) curiouskarmadog - ranting away. Actually, this is the same as my faraday read, but without the hydra and +1 town game.

20) Albert B. Rampage - lead a lynch on two scum and counterclaimed one to seal the deal. No way in hell.

So it really is a PoE down to dybeck, boberz, and then one of Espy, Sera, ckd, Jahudo, Faraday. Jahudo is top scumpick of that group with wagon analysis from others supporting town for Esp/Sera and my personal read on ckd/Faraday.

[Amished]

Also: read just the first 10 pages focusing on dybeck. If you don't get that he's staying out of every discussion to read the will of the town, you're blind. First responder meeting tonight; be back in like 2 hours or so.

[Amished]

Also: read just the first 10 pages focusing on dybeck. If you don't get that he's staying out of every discussion to read the will of the town, you're blind. First responder meeting tonight; be back in like 2 hours or so.

I was pretty clear in my own mind that I didn't like the bv or the Richard wagon. I thought I'd vocalised this pretty clearly, to be honest.

We can go down this road, if you like. Will be informative to see where it leads.

Yes, the information of why you're scum. Also, only the richard wagon was in the first 10 pages. Keep trying to not read what I'm talking about. More to come, unfortunately it's going to be more gut/this sounds like scum than "omg he didn't vote for blah when blah1 happened" I get the feeling.

[Amished]

Ok, going through dybeck in ISO (since I frankly don't want to wade through 65 pages for 90 posts). You might notice that I feel dybeck is one of those players lost in a single mafia game; and only feels comfortable attacking his scummates. bv is kind of an exception since day one you don't really want to lose a mafiate.

1-6 is pure randomness before and after Richard had his freakout and saying it was for reactions (no comment on it other than asking Richard "has being a douche worked for you in the past")

7 is saying the bv case is built on fairy dust (farside quoted that in 1610)

8 is still saying the bv case is flimsy.

9 is saying that scumtells aren't scumtells and scum lurk (like he is); yet bv getting wagoned seems to be the best thing going for the game at the moment.

12 goes back to say that he hasn't seen much wrong from bv (so town, and therefore the wagon isn't good for the town; or that's what should logically follow)

18 is a slight defense of bv; and questioning sera on if he thinks bv is getting bussed or not

20 has a quote from bv saying that dybeck is pro-town (one way meta based); unfortunately this can go either way (Obviously I feel bv thinks that he's done in for and is trying to take firm stances

21 has the first emotion that I really feel from dybeck. It's more of an omgus tone to Sando questioning dybeck about his stances in the game.

24-25 attacked boberz (strongest attack of the game)

27 takes somewhat of a step back when questioned about what he thinks on boberz (the main questioned post of 24-25 is now doesn't "enlighten us to boberz alignment")

but in 28 he votes for boberz anyways.

through 36 he goes back and forth with boberz, saying we need to lynch him tomorrow (d2). Let's actually see what happened then!

41 defends pom's claim as absolute truth

42-43 has "confusion" over a hider and "something isn't right with the claim" (expressing distrust)

but in 44 we shouldn't lynch Pom.

(45 agrees with boberz that the way Pom claimed made her look like scum)

47 votes Sando (no reason)

but in 49 votes for faraday. Actually, in 49 it brings up something that no townie would ever think of (especially not with the level of thought that dybeck put into the game otherwise) and does read like inside information:

I'm going to hazard a guess at the setup. I wonder whether when town power roles choose to use a night action, scum have the option of using the same night action against town.

Unusually canny for somebody who attacked lurkers and didn't follow through on suspicions from day to day... In fact, I'd almost bet that this is exactly the way the game works; which is why strong modes haven't been used. If you applied this to one of the vig kills; that would bring it to a lylo d4 (worst case scenario) which (if true) essentially confirms a 5 player scumteam.

With that last post; I'm gonna end right there as I don't see dybeck-town ever thinking of something like that; so it'd have to be inside information.

[Amished]

Oh whatever, ckd. You'd rant at anybody so you're not a threat.

@OJ (I think): After actually getting a reasonable explanation for the two night kill; I abandoned my thought that there was an SK out there. From there, I could use connective tells as a reliable source of finding scum since all evidence points to only one scumteam anyways. Also, if you read my case; what I felt to be my strongest point against dybeck is a solo tell (inside information). Power roles (especially after getting scum d1) would be stupid to give scum any type of power if it works the way that dybeck said it probably would. We'd be one up on them and can then just work on getting more scum without having to rely on desperate measures of giving a scummer any more power than they have.

More detailed post later when I'm not ninja'ing internet from a neighbor.

[Amished]

@Javert: Cause Sera and Espy are scumz together?

In any case, I'll be waiting with baited breath for this response.

[Amished]

If they're done stupidly, then yes; town lists are a bad reason. (I know where you're going with this, but whatever)

[Amished]

@Sera: Do you have any previous experience with Espy?

[Amished]

Have you thought that it could be a personality difference? Especially after ckd (and others, iirc) making a fuss about Richard's playstyle early on? (which Richard fulfilled this game)

[Amished]

I don't buy Espy's claim at all, mostly because he said it was his role was 'Vanilla Townie', even though earlier in the game by a townie death, it showed the role was named 'Villager' here. =/

I know you're a "townsperson" and all, but everyone does claim "vanilla" if they're a powerless person.

Sera's response is slightly more than disappointing.

[Amished]

-snip-

Besides, even if you think it would somehow be totally above dybeck's mental capacities to invent that speculation of how Karma works, according to your own logic of power roles consciously not using strong modes there would be two parties with the knowledge: scum and powerroles. Yet you use this point in your case to say that there is no way you see dybeck not being scum after that comment because of inside info. Illogical.

-snip-

He bothers me partly because of meta.

-snip-

I don't scumhunt with connections. I believe dybeck is scum. There are enough other people that do scumhunt while looking for connections that to convince them I need to use connections for them. Therefore I look for them to present my case and get scum lynched, since it's extremely hard to convince anybody of gut reads and "this sounds wrong, why did he (dybeck, in this example) say this if he's not scum?"

Are you really trying to say that dybeck-power role would REVEAL himself to know that inside knowledge where vanillas wouldn't know? Painting a huge target on his back because of it? Sound use of logic there.

Also, meta fail is fail.

For 1622:

Question about why I believe PR's wouldn't use their strong ability: I believe I covered this, but with dybeck's reveal about scum using strong abilities that the town used; and lynching scum on D1 we're ahead of the curve and wouldn't need to use strong abilities to assist scum any more. PZ-vig's kill most likely going through a night later suggests that he felt the same way.

Question about farside=town and basing my read on you {OJ} on that: Scum look to kill threats. Confirmed town (Pom is dead, she had no reason to lie and hid behind farside with an ability that would kill Pom N1 if she hid behind scum) is a threat. Richard and one of Anon/Porochaz aren't threats (specifically Richard). If you-scum remember that farside is confirmed town, that would make her a threat and would kill her because of that moreso than the current list of NK's after N1. It's against you-scum's wincon to leave people like that alive. The rest of us are smart enough that confirmed town isn't always right, and farside is smart enough to know the same thing so she's still scumhunting to the best of her abilities in good faith.

Do I think Albert lead the lynch on BV: Definitely a catalyst, but I will admit to not remembering bv's lynch all that clearly since I was only part of the game at the end of it; and he completely lead to Sando's lynch.

(sadface) I think I'm pretty obv-town, and ABR is ... well, ABR. It made me sad that I wasn't at least as townie as he was.

Pretty sure that's it, I'll try to be back in like 4 hours again to follow up any questions.

[Amished]

@Espy and Seraphim: How would you classify each of your own play so far this game?

@dybeck: It doesn't benefit either a PR or scum (which would be the two that know more of the mechanics) but a PR would know not to open their mouth and paint a target on their back like revealing mechanics would. Scum, however, do like to reveal what they know and try to look more intelligent so they reveal facts that would give them "townie cred" for trying to think about something that townies would have no clue about.

[Amished]

Just classify your play compared to your own standards.

[Amished]

How would you describe your play so far?

(probably a better way to phrase that question)

[Amished]

Ok, waiting for Espy's response before making a decision

[Amished]

Ok.

Unvote
Vote: Espeonage

(L-1)

Also, Sera moves into my more town read pile.

Also also: this is better cause then I'm not voting with dybeck or boberz.

[Amished]

I hate how stubborn this town is, btw.

@Javert: If either of them are scum, Espy has much more chance of being scum than Seraphim I believe. Espy knows his meta (therefore *can* tailor it). However, his activity can also be explained by scum not wanting to post a lot and fade into the background. As soon as anybody brings up their own meta; you really can't trust it overall.

For your reference to 222: I've seen scum do that. Course, they got lynched for it; but I've seen scum do that.

@dybeck: Here, let's follow this flow chart:

Who has the information that you provided through their role's?
(A: Scum and Power Roles)

Power Role branch:
Would they paint a target on their back (also known as: are you un-NKable):
(A: No)

Therefore, no Power Role reason.

Scum branch:
Do you have a NK that's against you:
(A: No)

Are you therefore more open to revealing information since you won't die at night?:
(A: Yes)

Is human nature such that people like to brag about stuff they know?
(A: Yes)

Have *I* {Amished} been caught as scum by revealing too much from a scum role?:
(A: Yes)

So, pretty much the only motivation for you to reveal the information you have (whatever motivation it is) is NOT from a townie.

Now if only everybody felt this way

[Amished]

I hate how stubborn this town is, btw.

@Javert: If either of them are scum, Espy has much more chance of being scum than Seraphim I believe. Espy knows his meta (therefore *can* tailor it). However, his activity can also be explained by scum not wanting to post a lot and fade into the background. As soon as anybody brings up their own meta; you really can't trust it overall.

For your reference to 222: I've seen scum do that. Course, they got lynched for it; but I've seen scum do that.

@dybeck: Here, let's follow this flow chart:

Who has the information that you provided through their role's?
(A: Scum and Power Roles)

Power Role branch:
Would they paint a target on their back (also known as: are you un-NKable):
(A: No)

Therefore, no Power Role reason.

Scum branch:
Do you have a NK that's against you:
(A: No)

Are you therefore more open to revealing information since you won't die at night?:
(A: Yes)

Is human nature such that people like to brag about stuff they know?
(A: Yes)

Have *I* {Amished} been caught as scum by revealing too much from a scum role?:
(A: Yes)

So, pretty much the only motivation for you to reveal the information you have (whatever motivation it is) is NOT from a townie.

Now if only everybody felt this way

[Amished]

@boberz (and somewhat OJ): say you have no info on the setup (vanilla). Would you make the leap of logic to say that power role strong actions are then given to the scum team when the only power role we really made claim was Pom and she didn't talk about consequences of her hiding? It REEKS of inside information. Inside information like that is rarely (read: never) lied about cause then a PR can trade themselves for a scum 1:1 after lynching two scum and well on the track to getting the rest of them. The fact that this wasn't disputed AT ALL BY ANYBODY also leads me to believe that it's factual. (yay for context, OJ). So, stating a fact that only a PR or scum would know (then refer to my flowchart-post).

@Javert: That was exactly what I was asking for from you.

Do you have any experience/knowledge with/of Sando? Would you put it past him tying a partner to another to clear himself for the long run? Or even banking on the fact that towns generally have a very short memory and would forget about a connection comment like that the very next day and if/when dybeck flips scum; Sando could point back to that and try to clear himself with it?

tl; dr version of that paragraph: Do you believe that Sando would only treat his scumbuddies in one manner?

@OJ: You design a setup where power roles have both strong and weak modes; and the strong mode works as it had been said (given my logic from earlier this post). Would you tell *BOTH* the PR's and the scum that they have the potential to give/receive more power? I would. I think that's fair to all parties involved.

I thought Pom used her weak mode on N1 behind farside?

It slipped my mind that Pom hid behind farside. I had a strong town read on her but it didn't cross my mind that she was confirmed until I saw that you started putting green for her in your votecount and I initially thought that it was a scumslip. If I can forget about it, anybody can; but those who don't forget about it (if scum) would speak up and try to get rid of large threats like that.

Finally, farside knows that she's town (obviously). Therefore, she knows that she's not always right (and wouldn't (and hasn't)) push that line of reasoning. The rest of us, while admitting that she's confirmed town, also know that townies aren't always right; but that farside is scumhunting in her best interest and we know her motives.

So everyone can trust her to do what's best and not have to second guess her motives; and looking at all of her posts with a simpler viewpoint (knowing that she's town).

Finally: as much as I like Javert and ABR; I will not be on any wagon with dybeck first of all, and boberz secondly. I will put their scum % up against Faraday and NickF's any day.

[Amished]

@farside: no, bobz is my 2nd suspect behind dybeck. Espy would be third pending faraday stuff. Reading now.

[Amished]

Well holy shit. I hate when scumz fly under mah radar. ISO 11 is pretty bad for Faraday in my eyes just at a glance too.

Unvote
Vote: Faraday

Better than Espy; and definitely better than Seraphim.

[Amished]

boberz: I may have the wrong quote in mind but I recall feeling you out when you said that you believed bv was saying he was VT. I tied you two together based on your defense. You seemed really scared and nervous at the idea of being teamed together. You later stated you acted that way in another game and I think I gave you a null tell later for it.
I still feel suspicious of you non the less.

Yo9u are completely misrembering this. The fact you didnt even link the right post demonstrates it somewhat.

You asked me to provide a link of me overreacting etc as town. I did so in the very next post. You accepted that it was null. In fact for me it is probably town,

I didnt do it at all untill prompted in my only scum game so far.

the fact I was overreacting about bv was meaningless to this point itself.

I suggest you go back and read before you accuse me of this.

I did defend bv, I did it forcefully (after I unvoted) provided reasoning albeit wrong in hindsight. There was no wishy washyness there was no oppourtunity for me to go back (unless I suppose if it was to avoid a nolynch) onto bv. It was not done in a scummy way.

[Amished]

@Nick: I moved my vote due to in-game reasons rather than meta.

Out of Sera/Espy, Espy is scummier; nobody will switch to dybeck with me and Faraday is a stronger scum read to me than Espy.

For me it's:
1) dybeck
1.5) Faraday
3) Espy/boberz/(nick?) I didn't like your 1742. Why do you want Espy dead, and why is it such a big deal if we go to Faraday?

[Amished]

@boberz: things change. I haven't taking a strong look at Faraday until now; and the way he plays is the scum-style that seems to fly under my radar pretty effectively until I do ISO them.

[Amished]

I wanted to know if there was another larger reason for Farside suddenly jumping from "cold day in hell when I unvote this guy" to starting the Faraday bandwagon. It must have been something I missed because I made a case on you earlier.

Basically, it's part self-preservation, part stronger read, part "blind faith", and part chickening out on lynching Espeonage.

I will admit that my Esp vote was almost completely based on self-preservation.

Sorry for the unexpected V/LA there; became really busy for a bit.

Anyways, not much has happened, but the bolded (while being able to be taken two ways) shows to me an openness that I feel reflects on a townie. The more I focus on just his posts, the more I don't like him for scum.

Faraday hasn't done anything redeeming and I'm not sure what Jahudo is doing..

[Amished]

Ok, if it's only between Sera and Espy; I'd much rather lynch espy (and with deadline so close it looks like Faraday's wagon isn't taking off. That looks like scum don't want to buss him to me; making me believe they're already on a townie).

I'll be around tomorrow night before the deadline if Sera isn't lynched though. Damn you all, especially ckd now for pushing Sera on a point that I believe clears him.

If I understand it right, Sera in 1668 seems to know what else is in an original PM and is trying to trap Espy with the knowledge of a VT. It sure as hell isn't a scum-tell; at *worst* it's a null tell since everyone was told to confirm via PM and everyone would have an extra line in there. Otherwise he's what he says he is and is a VT.

Sure as hell isn't a scumtell like ckd is trying to push.

[Amished]

EBWOP:

@ckd (1795): town lists are good if there's limited people (1, 2 tops) putting it out there for somebody that is middle of the pack for suspicion (some people do, some people don't, the ones that do seem to be casting doubt in the minds of the ones that don't) AND there's most likely not very many scum left.

From my viewpoint, OJ is a good player, but obviously her suspicion of me is misplaced. Therefore, in my attempt to show her (and people listening to her very often persuasive arguments) that I am town; I put together a full list with reasoning off the top of my head where possible. This is both an attempt to guide somebody that's more than likely town away from other-town and have her focus on people more likely to be scum; and to allow the rest of the town to not divert their energies on somebody that I know is town (me).

The reason I felt a full game list was appropriate for me is that town reads for weak and/or wrong reasons is very easy to mess up as scum; so to have a logical read game-wide narrowing down suspects logically both helps me in the sense that I can think about the whole game (which I tend to struggle with) and narrow down people that would fly under my radar (ckd, jahudo and faraday OTOH from my list I believe I said something to that effect about them) if I'm wrong about my top suspects (giving me a place to start from the next day taking into account NK's, possible mislynches, etc..) and giving the rest of the town to view and check my logic against theirs since like viewpoints almost always come from like roles/alignments.

So, for town that has limited/no information; my list would make sense and kinda line up with lists that other people have in their minds or written down. However, if my list is way off from what they have then it opens me way up to attack making it extremely risky to pull as scum. This is where my line about "if only 1 person, 2 tops" comes from. As soon as the first one posts (and is town); any scum that makes it after can somewhat copy the first one if they know that they're town. Integrity for that type of list degrades quickly which is why it shouldn't be used often, but should be used for times that either you're not viewed as pro-town as you feel you should be; or if you want to really question somebody later in a game to really determine if they're scum or not (by how their lists line up with yours as town).

Hopefully you understood my rambling; if there's something that you'd like clarified, please speak up.

[Amished]

You got about 5 until I come back tonight; and then another 12 beyond that for when I get up in the morning.

Unvote
Vote: Espeonage

Just in hopefulness.

[Amished]

Is any wagon switch really going to happen then? Otherwise I don't see the point of extending the day.

[Amished]

@farside: the way I see it we had a wagon building and nothing happened a couple days ago. I don't see why this close to the deadline would be any different.

[Amished]

I will be back online in 2 hours to hammer. If anybody has objections, you better be on and post >_>

[Amished]

Unvote
Vote: Seraphim

Not convinced at all but oh well.

[Amished]

Unvote
Vote: Seraphim

Not convinced at all but oh well.

[Amished]

Bah.

[Amished]

Dammit Jav; you ask me to replace in and then you go and kill me? WTF. Glad my Faraday and Espy reads were right (I think?)