Mini 969 - Smalltown: Stardust Mafia (Game Over)

[ReaperCharlie]

fos:peanutman

You're kidding, right?

tsk tsk: Reaper

for the last post

Backhand: Jack

[Jack]

You just put someone on your town list for a post in which they:

1) voted someone based on things that had been said repeatedly (and were BASED on zang saying he thought two people were town without saying why (except he did later which you haven't))
2) doing a bunch of analysis which is fine and all but pads out the post which is lacking on the scumhunting front

[Kdub]

I will probably lay a vote down very soon if discussion progresses considerably in the next day or two. I had originally voted MoI but I changed it to also being an FoS due to Zang's point about this possibly being town v town (which is a completely legitimate caution) and I don't want to be voting and unvoting and stuff until I am more convinced of who is scum and who is not.

What about it makes you think it's town vs. town? You and Zang are just saying so without any evidence or analysis to back that up. Also, your FoS on Zang makes no sense because you were agreeing with him about the town vs. town thing, but said nothing else about him. Huh? How does that earn him an FoS?

FoS: Charlie

[ooba]

..] Vote Count [..

Faraday (0)

Kdub (1)

- CallMeLiam

MagnaOfIllusion (3)

- Jack, totallynotmafia, Kdub

Mr. Bean (0)

ReaperCharlie (0)

Starbuck (0)

totallynotmafia (1)

- Mr. Bean

Zang (3)

- charter, Faraday, peanutman

Jack (0)

charter (1)

- Starbuck

CallMeLiam (1)

- ReaperCharlie

peanutman (1)

- MagnaOfIllusion

Not voting (1)

- Zang

With 12 alive, 7 to lynch!

[totallynotmafia]

Sorry guys I've got a couple of assignments I'm trying to finish so my activity isn't going to be the best in the next couple of days either.

Then there's this:

As Mr. Bean said, the only two that are worthwhile motivating are the tracker and the roleblocker. If the tracker is town then obviously that's a big advantage to motivate them and if they are scum then it doesn't really give them an advantage at all, and if they are the SK then they could help the town find scum as well. If the Roleblocker is town then we could possibly defend against both nightkills, if they are scum though they could use the two RBs to their advantage, and the same goes if they are SK, although scum could block the SK and vise versa.

I think out of the two it's probably best to motivate the tracker (provided Faraday isn't acting scummy) as I don't really see any detriment to the town if either scum or SK can track, and also because I agree with what Jack picked up on in Magna's post, that kind of over-explaining strikes me as something that scum/Sk are obliged to do. Magna, why did you have to point out that you were checking if Lord Sept could be tracked in the thread, why the need for the running commentary? It's kind of strange, even stranger that you actually knew what the SKs name was without having to check that.

Vote: MagnaofIllusion

While I agree with this post, and the vote contained in it, something in this post

also

strikes me as 'off'. In this post, TNM sounds like he is looking for

extra

reasons -- that is, in

addition

to what Jack noticed -- to go after MoI. This seems to me like a Mafia member hoping that someone has found out the SK first day, and that his scumteam won't have to spend the whole game trying to find him, and now he's trying to give as many reasons as possible so that everyone will want to lynch him.

Uh....what the? Are you serious? This has got to be the worst reason I have ever seen for suspecting someone! I just can't understand why you think adding other things you find strange about someones actions is scummy....and even if you do think that, all I added was that I found it strange that he already knew the SK was Lord Septimus yet he had to go back and check (or so he claims) if the SK could be tracked, and you call that "trying to give as many reasons as possible so that everyone will want to lynch him"???

This clutching at straws seems like you're trying your hardest to paint people scummy, especially after you were called out on not contributing any useful content.

My opinion is that the Magna/Jack thing may very well be town vs town, and Zang was stating that, so that the Magna vote didn't progress to a quicklynch. That does not appear scummy to me at all that he said that. I will read his posts more later today to see if there is a legitimate underlying scummy tone in his posts.

In conclusion:

FoS: MagnaofIllusion

FoS: totallynotmafia

FoS: Zang

I will probably lay a vote down very soon if discussion progresses considerably in the next day or two. I had originally voted MoI but I changed it to also being an FoS due to Zang's point about this possibly being town v town (which is a completely legitimate caution) and I don't want to be voting and unvoting and stuff until I am more convinced of who is scum and who is not.

There is really not a strong case on anyone at this point. Those who haven't chipped in yet, do so now, or I will begin to turn my attention to you as well.

I don't get this, first you are defending Zang and then you FOS him? What was your reason for being suspicious of Zang? If that's an attempt at distancing it's a really weak one. It seems to me that you don't want to put a vote down until you know how everyone else is voting.

The biggest thing that makes me think you are scum though is your comments on the activity levels. From my experience scum often use the opportunity of low activity levels to try and score town points by pointing out that it is bad for town (i've done it a couple of times and I've seen others do it too (hello, peanutman!)) Outside of a newbie game I don't see the point of town pointing this out, everybody knows low activity levels hurt the town and that people have real life commitments. It's even worse in your case because as other people have pointed out you hadn't actually contributed anything worthwhile before that.

Unvote, Vote: ReaperCharlie

I agree with what people are saying about Zang's town vs town comment too, and I wouldnt be surprised if he was defending a fellow scum member in saying that as he did it in Almost No Rules Mafia, blatantly calling a fellow scumbuddy town after they did one of the scummiest things ever. I'd be happy with either lynch at the moment and I still think Magna may be SK.

[ReaperCharlie]

@ Jack:

I said 'You're kidding, right?' because peanutman's so-called 'IIoA' was actually good information, and analysis of the possibilities of motivating different roles. peanutman earned town points in my book with that post. Did you not think his post was helpful?

@ Kdub:

I am

not

agreeing with Zang. You are misrepping both me

AND

Zang. I don't believe he

ever

said that it was unmistakably town vs town, and I

KNOW

I didn't... I am merely pointing out the other side of the coin: that it's possible he did that from a pro-town standpoint instead of a scummy one.

Don't

misrep me again.

@ TNM:

Nice OMGUS, noob. Just pointing something out. Way to vote someone who FoS'd you just because you disagree with him. *facepalm* You said that it was

"even stranger that

you

[MoI] actually knew what the SKs name was without having to check

that

[the OPs]"

, which is a ridiculous line of reasoning, especially against anyone who is familiar with the movie at ALL. It's also complete fluff, and you were trying to pad your post so that nobody would suspect you. Basically, it seems like you were trying to start up a quick wagon on him, for terrible reasons, and seemed like poor wagon hopping.

Scum always care more about what people think of their actions than town do (first point under ScumHunting in RC's Mafia Strategy Tips, bro! See also point 7 under Scumhunting, this is a huge one that you are doing right now.) You were trying too hard to make it seem like you had ample reason to join a wagon on MagnaofIllusion, and you're trying even harder now to make it seem like you have a reason to vote me! Fallacy, I say!

And your blatant OMGUS on me is even more suspicious. Looks like we've caught a live one here! Let's get a'wagoning, folks!

Unvote; Vote: totallynotmafia

[MagnaofIllusion]

But yeh I probably won't take that much direction on my tracking, I'll track who I figure most likely to be scum, or who commits the night kill.

Can you explain the bolded part please? Are you saying you will track the player think is most likely to be making the Night kill?

I would also say that MoI's avoidance of Jack's questions makes him appear even scummier.

Please point me to a question of Jack’s that ignored.

Also, regarding 138 – In an open set-up like this with known roles but unknown alignments there is going to be WIFOM regardless of how dirty a word it is to you.

This clutching at straws seems like you're trying your hardest to paint people scummy,

You don’t see determining that I am Lord Sept. simply based on a line you find “strange” as grasping at straws?

I think the majority seems to think that Motivating Faraday is the way to go.

I think the thread needs more Starbuck.

[ReaperCharlie]

@ Faraday 145 -- Well, ok. Hope everything's alright.

I would also say that MoI's avoidance of Jack's questions makes him appear even scummier.

Please point me to a question of Jack’s that I ignored.

The last half of

post 99

. You answered it previously in a deflective manner, but not directly, and so Jack asked it again.
Shortly afterward, it was lost in the page break, so I thought I'd bring it up again.

I will also point out that I misrepped MoI, making a blanket statement from memory, saying he hadn't answered Jack's

question

s

.
Upon a re-read, I can see only one he missed answering, and he did somewhat answer it, just not to Jack's satisfaction. My fault.

FTR, I am not sure whether (if either) of Jack/Magna are scum, or town. I have no concrete read either way on either of them.
I'm going to re-read and post later, but for now I want more votes on

totallynotmafia

. There is more to be learned here.

[ooba]

Both Mr.Bean and Starbuck have been prodded.

[Starbuck]

Holy crap, I'm sorry guys.

I know it's only a few pages, but I'm heading to bed here in a few. So I'll catch up in the morning before I head to work.

[Kdub]

Charlie:

Posts 110, 114, and 115 somewhat de-escalates the intensity at which my scumdar was bloopin', because as Zang points out, this DOES begin to look like town vs town.

My opinion is that the Magna/Jack thing may very well be town vs town, and Zang was stating that, so that the Magna vote didn't progress to a quicklynch. That does not appear scummy to me at all that he said that. I will read his posts more later today to see if there is a legitimate underlying scummy tone in his posts.

I will probably lay a vote down very soon if discussion progresses considerably in the next day or two. I had originally voted MoI but I changed it to also being an FoS due to Zang's point about this possibly being town v town (which is a completely legitimate caution) and I don't want to be voting and unvoting and stuff until I am more convinced of who is scum and who is not.

These were your only mentions of Zang in 143. Given this, I want to know:
1) How am I misrepresenting you about agreeing with Zang when these quotes show that you think Zang's town vs. town point is a "legitimate caution"?
2) Why did you FoS Zang if he "does not appear scummy to me at all"?

[ReaperCharlie]

Charlie:

Posts 110, 114, and 115 somewhat de-escalates the intensity at which my scumdar was bloopin', because as Zang points out, this DOES begin to look like town vs town.

My opinion is that the Magna/Jack thing may very well be town vs town, and Zang was stating that, so that the Magna vote didn't progress to a quicklynch. That

does not appear scummy to me at all

that he said that

. I will read his posts more later today to see if there is a

legitimate underlying scummy

tone

in his posts.

I will probably lay a vote down very soon if discussion progresses considerably in the next day or two. I had originally voted MoI but I changed it to also being an FoS due to Zang's point about this possibly being town v town (which is a completely legitimate caution) and I don't want to be voting and unvoting and stuff until I am more convinced of who is scum and who is not.

These were your only mentions of Zang in 143. Given this, I want to know:
1) How am I misrepresenting you about agreeing with Zang when these quotes show that you think Zang's town vs. town point is a "legitimate caution"?
2) Why did you FoS Zang if he "does not appear scummy to me at all"?

Important parts are bolded.

Observe: I

never

said that Zang

himself

wasn't scummy. I said that

pointing out that something may be town vs town

isn't scummy. When you try to point out that

I don't know if you're doing this on purpose, or if I am really writing things in a hard-to-understand manner.

If you do it again though, I am switching my vote to you because you are obviously trying to twist the words I am saying to mean something else, to mean whatever fits what you want others to believe. Doing that often means someone has a hidden agenda.

But onto bigger and brighter things. For instance, Zang.

[ReaperCharlie]

Not sure if I answered this yet:

Hey RC who's your top suspect at this stage?

totallynotmafia and charter

totallynotmafia for the reasons I posted before, and I talk about charter below:

---

Went back and re-read some more about Zang (and his lovers).

Here are the votes on Zang, and the "reasons" why. I must direct your attention to the fact that they are alarmingly thin AND/OR NONEXISTENT:

Charter

's reason(s):

post 126:

Zang's dismissal of the argument as town v town is scummy. Any way you slice it Zang is scummy

.

Really? Any way you slice it, Zang is scummy? Remember, at this point, Zang has

only

posted 118! How do you expect me or anyone to follow your reasoning for the rest of your argument there? The logic is nonexistent! This blows my mind! Also of note:

I was going to vote Jack, until I got to Zang...

This could be scum distancing. It would definitely be a very good excuse to do it right at this point, because it'd be subliminal.

---

Faraday

's reason(s):

119:

I want to vote Zang now too.

129:

unvote vote zang

Nothing more, nothing less. Absolutely

no

reasoning whatsoever. Following charter's nonexistent argument is the ONLY explanation for his vote.

Not to mention Faraday COMPLETELY ignores Zang's question in 131.

---

Peanutman

's reason(s):

147:

You seem to be too eager to get cozy in this thread and that's just not gonna fly with me. I'd rather you contribute than just offhandedly declare two people town on a whim and move on (without even addressing or commenting the merits of the discussion in question).

In Zang's post 118, the paragraph after the kdub quote shows exactly why Zang thinks magna doesn't deserve a scum rap (which doesn't seem too much like a stretch to me), and in 127 he says he thinks Jack is just misguided, vice being totally scummy.

And how does simply bringing up the possibility that an argument may be town vs town, all of a sudden make him scum? That doesn't make sense to me. I am

always

on the lookout for that possibility, because it CAUSES MISLYNCHES. FFS



@ charter, Faraday, peanutman: Please give a

REAL

explanation of why you think he is scum. If I'm convinced in the least, you'll have my vote. Until then, I'm sticking with my gut.

Ready? Go

[Faraday]

I've already explained why I'm voting him I'm reasonably sure. The fact he brought up town vs town doesn't make him scum, it's his reasons for doing so I dislike.

I've already been through this tho; unless I'm going mad.

[Faraday]

Post 141.

[Faraday]

I don't like RC's vote on TNM.

I mean:

Way to vote someone who FoS'd you just because you disagree with him

Isn't what TNM did at all as far as I'm concerned, and if anyone comes off as OMGUS-y here it's you, RC.

Oops missed this but:

Can you explain the bolded part please? Are you saying you will track the player think is most likely to be making the Night kill?

Yeah, obviously that'd be the aim and best use of my role.


Btw charlie could you point me to the answer to this question, I've not seen it but if I've missed it then just point it out:

I don't get this, first you are defending Zang and then you FOS him? What was your reason for being suspicious of Zang?

^^ this I don't really understand your suspicioun of Zang either.

[totallynotmafia]

@ TNM:

Nice OMGUS, noob. Just pointing something out. Way to vote someone who FoS'd you just because you disagree with him. *facepalm* You said that it was

"even stranger that

you

[MoI] actually knew what the SKs name was without having to check

that

[the OPs]"

, which is a ridiculous line of reasoning, especially against anyone who is familiar with the movie at ALL. It's also complete fluff, and you were trying to pad your post so that nobody would suspect you. Basically, it seems like you were trying to start up a quick wagon on him, for terrible reasons, and seemed like poor wagon hopping.

Scum always care more about what people think of their actions than town do (first point under ScumHunting in RC's Mafia Strategy Tips, bro! See also point 7 under Scumhunting, this is a huge one that you are doing right now.) You were trying too hard to make it seem like you had ample reason to join a wagon on MagnaofIllusion, and you're trying even harder now to make it seem like you have a reason to vote me! Fallacy, I say!

And your blatant OMGUS on me is even more suspicious. Looks like we've caught a live one here! Let's get a'wagoning, folks!

Unvote; Vote: totallynotmafia

I voted you for three reasons that I found you scummy which I clearly stated (your weak reason for fosing me, you fosing Zang without a reason, you complaining about activity levels while not actually contributing yourself), so how is that voting for you just because I disagree with you? You're trying to brush off my reasoning by saying it's just an OMGUS...please explain why just because you fosed me before I voted you how that makes me scummy? I'm interested to know, especially because you pretty much did the same thing on me afterwards. Your whole post is hypocritical, you accuse me of trying to start a bandwagon on someone yet you are quite clearly appealing to others to bandwagon me.

Also, the constant threatening to vote people just makes you look even more scummy.

[charter]

I agree with Faraday's 141, with regards to not buying Zang's reasoning for labeling them both as town.

RC, what exactly are these "extra reasons" you're seeing that TNM gave for voting Magna? I don't see anything.

I also don't see where you (RC) are getting a FOS of Zang from, since you seem to agree with his town v town assessment.

1.He is being accused of being a SK correct? Well, then how am I supposed to know he is a SK?

There's not really much of a way to know on day one, but how does him not being a SK make him town?


Jack, what do you think of Zang?

RC's vote on TNM looks really terrible to me. He says TNM is omgusing him and then votes TNM, which really just looks like a cop out.

RC then says he'll vote Kdub for a pretty bad reason. RC and Zang look like possible buddies to me. Right now they're about equal scumminess to me as well.

RC, your points against me are terrible as well.

Charter's reason(s):
post 126: Zang's dismissal of the argument as town v town is scummy. Any way you slice it Zang is scummy.

Really? Any way you slice it, Zang is scummy? Remember, at this point, Zang has only posted 118! How do you expect me or anyone to follow your reasoning for the rest of your argument there? The logic is nonexistent! This blows my mind! Also of note:

You selectively didn't quote where I explained my argument.

This could be scum distancing. It would definitely be a very good excuse to do it right at this point, because it'd be subliminal.

Ok, so now you think me and Jack are scum as well? How many people are you suspicious of? 7? 8?

RC's flailing around is pretty scummy.

[peanutman]

1) voted someone based on things that had been said repeatedly (and were BASED on zang saying he thought two people were town without saying why (except he did later which you haven't))
2) doing a bunch of analysis which is fine and all but pads out the post which is lacking on the scumhunting front

1)First of all, I don't feel that I'm not allowed to vote for someone just because someone else provided similar reasoning in a previous vote. Also, the questions that I asked, I had not seen in a previous post.

First of all, how does magna become town because there's a weak case on him? Second of all, could you please explain how you've concluded that Jack is "more of a misguided townie than a scumbag"?

My first one, you, Jack, did ask a similar question in 141. However, I don't believe anyone had questioned how he determined Jack was more of a misguided townie.
2) I was answering Magna's question about whether motivating the Tracker was the best town choice. I felt it was best to look at all the options and determine which would be best. As I was doing so, I thought the exercise would be useful for all of town. Therefore, instead of just agreeing that motivating the tracker is best without explanation like some people did, I put visible effort in answering the question. So it's not IIoA, but rather an answer to a question.

@Jack, could you explain the timeline of posts 129 and 130. I have a reason that I will explain later. However, did you post 129 (the vote), get the call and then post 130? Or were you writing 129, got a call, posted just the vote, and then made an addition V/LA post? Or did it happen some other way? Please explain. Also, please answer this:

Did you not think his (my "who to motivate") post was helpful?

@Reaper Charlie, if you had quoted my whole vote post, you would have seen my questions that I asked of him that set the tone for the vote. Basically, the rationale for him declaring the argument "town vs. town" is either ill-thought out or unsubstantiated (needs to be explained further). The fact that he threw out the claim (already declaring two people town so early on) with next to no valid supporting arguments was worthy of the vote.

Next up, reading players in iso.

[ReaperCharlie]

Well, well, well. Looks like I'm in a crock of it even though I wasn't the one arguing in the first place.

Well, I'll try to respond to each of your posts/points in the time I have before I go to sleep. If I miss something, let me know.

@ Faraday 164. Sorry, noted. I was at work and was popping in and out of the page to write my post so nobody would catch me *sheepish grin* I must have missed 141 somehow.

Way to vote someone who FoS'd you just because you disagree with him

Isn't what TNM did at all as far as I'm concerned, and if anyone comes off as OMGUS-y here it's you, RC.

I don't care. He did something I consider to be scummy, and if he wants to up the anty to voting instead of FoSing, I'm all for it. This fight may be town-vs-town as well (if indeed the other one was too), but I don't care about that either, as long as nobody gets mislynched for it.

See, when nobody discusses, things get stale. Scum are allowed to skate by. That's bad.

Point of order:

Town vs Town arguments can be GOOD. They are often

very

beneficial to hunting scum, cause scum will try to insert barbs to make things snowball that irk people the wrong way, and then people with a good eye can spot them. That's what I was saying about TNM's post earlier, when he quipped that it was weird that MoI knew the SK's name without reading the OP.

But when Town Vs Town gets to that certain point of multiple votes getting lain down (by townies), clever scum see the opportunity for a wayward mislynch, and start getting actually involved in the discussion as well, because the townies are all worked up because OH NOES! SOMEONE IS VOTING ME! OMGUS!

That's when things WIFOMsnowball and some innocent townie gets ganked.

That being said, I often throw mass-FoS's around to stimulate discussion. It's controversial, but as long as it gets people talking, who cares? It's gotten me mis-lynched a couple times but I don't think it's doing me any harm here on a grand scale.

I don't get this, first you are defending Zang and then you FOS him? What was your reason for being suspicious of Zang?

I don't really understand your suspicioun of Zang either.

My reasoning for FoSing Zang: Now that I look back at it, I wasn't really that suspicious of him. I'm still not. What I

was

suspicious of, was all the attention he was getting. That's the reason I put down 3 FoS's in a row, because out of all the people arguing/being argued about at that moment, those were the three that I was most suspicious of. Comprende?

Also, mass-FoSing is not voting, so it's not like I was vote-hopping, which I consider to be a scumtell. I was making a blanket suspicion statement in the general direction of the three who I believed to be the most likely to be scum, for reasons discovered or not discovered yet. I suspected Jack the least out of that group, so he didn't get one.

Get over it, it was only an FoS, and you're responding and contributing now. That's what the FoS was

FOR

in the first place, to get you to open your mouths instead of being inactive for a whole weekend.

Can I get an amen?

Somebody's

got to agree with me on my volatile early-activity strategy. Or am I the only one who likes a lively Day 1?

I voted you for three reasons that I found you scummy which I clearly stated (

your weak reason for fosing me

,

you fosing Zang without a reason

,

you complaining about activity levels while not actually contributing yourself

), so how is that voting for you just because I disagree with you?

The

italicized

and

bolded

are answered above. The

struck out

text is no longer a reason. Plus, I was V/LA. Sue me, I'm in the military, it's required that I be gone sometimes. Haha

You're trying to brush off my reasoning by saying it's just an OMGUS...please explain why just because you fosed me before I voted you how that makes me scummy? I'm interested to know, especially because you pretty much did the same thing on me afterwards. Your whole post is hypocritical, you accuse me of trying to start a bandwagon on someone yet you are quite clearly appealing to others to bandwagon me.

Ok, watch: You were quite happy with following the crowd on MagnaofIllusion, and then as soon as soon as I put an FoS on you, you found THREE 'reasons' to switch your vote to me. Crappy reasons, but w/e. So it WAS an OMGUS vote, among other things (yes, I acknowledge that your point of me mostly fluffing up until then was pretty true. It was RVS and I was V/LA). In order to get you talking instead of just inserting sideways jabs at others without any commitment to an argument yourself, I whacked you on the head with a foam mallet to wake you up.

Also, I still think what you did is scummy (what I indicated in my post where I originally FoS'd you).

Also, the constant threatening to vote people just makes you look even more scummy.

Really? Why?

This clutching at straws seems like you're trying your hardest to paint people scummy,

You don’t see determining that I am Lord Sept. simply based on a line you find “strange” as grasping at straws?

You still haven't answered this.

---

RC, what exactly are these "extra reasons" you're seeing that TNM gave for voting Magna? I don't see anything.

Read 143 again, where I quote 106. This part in particular:

even stranger that you actually knew what the SKs name was without having to check that.

This isn't strange at all. I bought the movie just to re-acquaint myself with the characters, why is it strange to think he might have done the same (or had seen it more recently than I had?) And besides, even before re-watching the movie, the only ones I recalled were Captain Shakespeare (because of the 'captain' in his name) and Lord Septimus (because of the 'Septimus' in his name, meaning he was the seventh brother out of Primus, Secondus, Tertius, Quadrius, Quintus, Sextus, and Septimus). It's not a stretch at all to believe that he remembered that even without watching the movie again (because I did), and it's even easier to believe it if he DID watch the movie again, (like I did). Maybe this only strikes

me

as odd, but I hardly think all this discussion is necessary for an FoS which I've already explained was only part of a blanket suspicion statement.

Anyway, that is the 'extra' reason I found that TNM was trying to give to vote Magna, and THAT'S why I thought (and still think) he's probably scum.

I also don't see where you (RC) are getting a FOS of Zang from, since you seem to agree with his town v town assessment.

Again, read the above where I talk about FoSing.

RC's vote on TNM looks really terrible to me. He says TNM is omgusing him and then votes TNM, which really just looks like a cop out.

Why? I've explained why I voted him.

But your defense of TNM is noted.

I think I'm recognizing a pattern. Anyone else see it? Rev up that old _______, and let's get to choppin' down these trees!

RC then says he'll vote Kdub for a pretty bad reason. RC and Zang look like possible buddies to me. Right now they're about equal scumminess to me as well.

How is voting Kdub (for misrepping me

repeatedly

) a bad reason? I look forward to your response, because I certainly can't see a problem with that. Notice: He shut up and stopped misrepping me. Hint: That's a good thing.

And how are you seeing a connection between me and Zang? I was only pointing out that

nobody had a convincing argument on him.

Show me a convincing argument that he is scum, and that's where my vote will be. Honest.

Ok, so now you think me and Jack are scum as well? How many people are you suspicious of? 7? 8?

I named who I was suspicious of. You and TNM.

Stop

misrepping me and saying I was pointing to you being scum. I said that what you did was possible scum distancing. I am noting these things as I see them, and when I ISO myself later, I can make connections based on my observations. Apparently that's a foreign concept to you. Maybe you think I should just keep my suspicions and thoughts to myself?

Yeah, cause THAT'S really pro-town.

RC's flailing around is pretty scummy.

I'm not flailing. If you want flailing, look at TNM.

But out of curiosity, why do you think I look scummy? You haven't really provided a reason yet other than sheeping and copying questions from Kdub and Faraday, whose questions I have already answered.

RC, your points against me are terrible as well.

Charter's reason(s):
post 126: Zang's dismissal of the argument as town v town is scummy. Any way you slice it Zang is scummy.

Really? Any way you slice it, Zang is scummy? Remember, at this point, Zang has only posted 118! How do you expect me or anyone to follow your reasoning for the rest of your argument there? The logic is nonexistent! This blows my mind! Also of note:

You selectively didn't quote where I explained my argument.

Since you are claiming I selectively quoted you, here is the full quote (minus the unrelated stuff about Magna/Jack):

Zang's dismissal of the argument as town v town is scummy. Any way you slice it Zang is scummy, whether it is a town v town fight or town v scum or something else. Of course Zang doesn't say why he thinks it's town v town. So my guess is that he knows at least one of them isn't mafia, so it's a really poor attempt at town points if one of them dies.

vote Zang

Ok first off, Zang explained why he thought it was town vs town in posts 118 and 127. I mentioned that in my last post, in response to peanutman's 147! But you probably aren't thoroughly reading my posts are you? More scum points for you.

But the most disturbing of my 'terrible points against you' is this: Zang had STILL only posted ONE POST (118) that related to the Magna/Jack thing when you posted 126! How does that

one post

lead you to say

"Any way you slice it, Zang is scummy"

??? Especially after you were just about to vote for Jack?

---

Anyone wondering about my motives for other actions: ISO me and actually

read

my posts instead of skimming them. I put a lot of thought into them usually. You'll find out that *gasp*

I actually splain why I do most stuff.

...

Did anyone else notice in his reply to what I said that totallynotmafia

COMPLETELY IGNORED

my request to provide decent reasoning for his vote on Zang? He totally skipped that -- and went straight to more OMGUS against me.

Which is

exactly

why my vote is staying on him.


I am looking forward to seeing what Mr. Bean and Starbuck have to say about this, and I'd also like to hear more from CallMeLiam and Peanutman.


-------------------

tl;dr?

F%CK YOU! READ THE POST! ANSWER THE QUESTIONS.

[ReaperCharlie]

Blast! Ninja'd!

[ReaperCharlie]

1) voted someone based on things that had been said repeatedly (and were BASED on zang saying he thought two people were town without saying why (except he did later which you haven't))
2) doing a bunch of analysis which is fine and all but pads out the post which is lacking on the scumhunting front

1)First of all, I don't feel that I'm not allowed to vote for someone just because someone else provided similar reasoning in a previous vote. Also, the questions that I asked, I had not seen in a previous post.

First of all, how does magna become town because there's a weak case on him? Second of all, could you please explain how you've concluded that Jack is "more of a misguided townie than a scumbag"?

My first one, you, Jack, did ask a similar question in 141. However, I don't believe anyone had questioned how he determined Jack was more of a misguided townie.
2) I was answering Magna's question about whether motivating the Tracker was the best town choice. I felt it was best to look at all the options and determine which would be best. As I was doing so, I thought the exercise would be useful for all of town. Therefore, instead of just agreeing that motivating the tracker is best without explanation like some people did, I put visible effort in answering the question. So it's not IIoA, but rather an answer to a question.

@Jack, could you explain the timeline of posts 129 and 130. I have a reason that I will explain later. However, did you post 129 (the vote), get the call and then post 130? Or were you writing 129, got a call, posted just the vote, and then made an addition V/LA post? Or did it happen some other way? Please explain. Also, please answer this:

Did you not think his (my "who to motivate") post was helpful?

@Reaper Charlie, if you had quoted my whole vote post, you would have seen my questions that I asked of him that set the tone for the vote. Basically, the rationale for him declaring the argument "town vs. town" is either ill-thought out or unsubstantiated (needs to be explained further). The fact that he threw out the claim (already declaring two people town so early on) with next to no valid supporting arguments was worthy of the vote.

Next up, reading players in iso.

This

is why peanutman is on my town list. Anyone who disagrees is obvscum.

And while I agree that Zang's comment may have been ill-thought-out AND unsubstantiated, he did later substantiate it (posts 118 and 127, respectively). He didn't back off from his decision, and that's pretty much the

only

reason why I think he was worth 'sticking my neck out for', if that's what you want to call it. Otherwise I would have hopped on the wagon too, which would have been the EASY thing to do. But I didn't think what he did was inherently scummy.

Anyway, think about it. If I was scum MYSELF, there is no way I would stick my neck out for someone who I thought was town, and ESPECIALLY not for someone who I knew was scum. (I know, I know. Insert WIFOM here).

But seeing as Zang hasn't done much to defend himself since, and I'm the only one doing anything for him, it's rapidly becoming less helpful for me to do so. And people are getting suspicious of me for it, so I'm done with it for now. I've already said everything there is to say on the matter.

If by chance there is something I haven't mentioned, let me know and I will answer it.

[Kdub]

Observe: I

never

said that Zang

himself

wasn't scummy. I said that

pointing out that something may be town vs town

isn't scummy. When you try to point out that

I don't know if you're doing this on purpose, or if I am really writing things in a hard-to-understand manner.

If you do it again though, I am switching my vote to you because you are obviously trying to twist the words I am saying to mean something else, to mean whatever fits what you want others to believe. Doing that often means someone has a hidden agenda.

Regarding your quote on Zang's town vs. town thing, yes you are technically correct in that you were saying that it was his action that was not scummy, not him specifically. However, since you do not indicate any suspicion of him at all in the rest of your post, it is pretty strongly implied that since you think his action was not scummy, you therefore think he is not scummy. I don't think that's a misrepresentation at all, I think it's a perfectly logical conclusion to draw from your post, and that is why I thought it was strange that you subsequently FoSed him.

BTW, I haven't forgotten about Magna. He has yet to come up with a satisfactory explanation for the Septimus thing. If he is claiming that his knowledge of the source material is what made him refer to the SK as "Lord Septimus", I have to disagree. My memory (and others should point out if I am wrong here) is that he was simply referred to as "Septimus" most of the time in both the book and the movie. The role PM that he supposedly checked also said "Septimus".

[Starbuck]

Unvote

On Magna

I'm not sure what's up here with Magna.

In Post 94, he states:

The problem with tracking is that I believe the Lord Sept. is immune to being Tracked.

Let me check in another window ... yes I am remembering correct.

I'd suggest Bodyguarding would be a good double choice.

Whether or not the role PM is in the opening post, this post just strikes me as odd. I really don't understand why the announcement of checking it in another window, rather than just doing it.

His deflection and air of overdefensiveness just doesn't sit well reading his 1v1 with Jack.

On Zang

I feel a bit of buddying in Post 118, where Zang just casually dismisses Magna's actions and the 1v1 as TownvTown just because "the argument against magna is weak".

He also states that he feels that Jack is "more of a misguided townie than a scumbag".

You need REASONS to back up both of these statements. You can't just state things like this and expect them to immediately be golden.


I'm also wondering just why it seems like Zang knows this is a TownvTown discussion and why neither one could be scum. It's quite early to have any good reads yet.

Vote: Zang

On ReaperCharlie

Cool, I haven't been in that long yet. I hit 5 yrs next month though.

What's your rate?

AE, here.

I had originally voted MoI but I changed it to also being an FoS due to Zang's point about this possibly being town v town (which is a completely legitimate caution) and I don't want to be voting and unvoting and stuff until I am more convinced of who is scum and who is not.

If you are still saying that you need to be more convinced of who is scum and who is not, how can you trust Zang's point of TownvTown?


I'm pretty concerned about Charlie's sudden overdefensiveness in Post 155, as well as his subtle threats ("

Don't

misrep me again")



Also, posts like 169 are far too long and very unneccessary. I will admit that I TL;DR that entire monstrosity.

[Jack]

Having played with zang before I haven't seen anything to make me think he's scum.

I skim read that set of giant posts above. Will post again soon explaining why magna is scum.