Star Wars Mafia (Game Over)

[LimMePls]

No, I'm making a general statement to the group. That was a rhetorical question. Sorry.

[LimMePls]

You know, I just did a dana iso to find posts that were why I said I was moving him off my scum list, and I honestly can't say why I thought that. I said it on Friday, and I know I did a bunch of iso reads that day, but I seriously can't find a single post that reminds me why I said that.

[Kdub]

Vote Count

d3x (5)

- Kthxbye, bv310, AlmasterGM, Toon Fighter, danakillsu

wolframnhart (0)

-

ooba (0)

-

Kast (0)

-

Toon Fighter (3)

- Scott Brosius, LynchMePls, wolframnhart

Dragon Phoenix (0)

-

Slicey (0)

-

LynchMePls (0)

-

AlmasterGM (0)

-

Scott Brosius (0)

-

danakillsu (2)

- Kast, d3x

FC Groningen (0)

-

Kthxbye (0)

-

bv310 (0)

-

No Lynch (0)

-

Not Voting (4)

- ooba, Dragon Phoenix, Slicey, FC Groningen

14 votes available, 8 votes needed to lynch

Deadline is June 3, ~ 7 pm PDT

[danakillsu]

Alright, well it looks as if I have some explaining to do. Kast, the way I see it, your case on me is:
You see me pushing for info from the claimed cops. This is a poor point, since I was the most opposed to a fullclaim of those asking for more info. I didn't want any fullclaims from anybody, just a rolename that would help me determine the truthfulness of the claim
You see me saying a VI lynch is better than a no lynch. What's bad about that? There's no guarantee that someone actually is a VI unless through investigation, so lynching someone that might be scum, but won't help town anyway is better than not lynching anyone.
You see me saying GMT is likely in this game. This isn't scummy in the first place because unless I'm Empire scum, I have just as much chance of knowing that there is a GMT if I'm town as I do if I'm scum. And you seem to think that I'm part of the Scum scumteam. However, I think that not only is it not scummy, it's correct, too. Darth Vader's already dead, so it can't be him. An interrogation droid would not be a player, because it has no personality, and besides, it can't kill anyone! And GMT does torture Leia in the first Star Wars movie with an interrogation droid, which (besides any torture Vader is involved in) is the only instance of torture in the movies. So maybe I was wrong about him being the only one to torture people, but that hardly makes me scum. Lol at Lynch for his:
"Dana is leaning town"
"Oh, wait, I don't know why I said that"
behavior like that sticks out like a sore thumb.
And btw, @d3x
Would you like some fries with that blatant, cowardly OMGUS?

[LimMePls]

Lol at Lynch for his:
"Dana is leaning town"
"Oh, wait, I don't know why I said that"

danakillsu: actually, after a re-read with current information, I'm moving dana off my probable scum list. May 3rd last post, and I don't see a V/LA. We did have a really quick day 3 though, which would explain the no vote or post on day 3. You still with us dana?

On a reread I didn't think dana was as scummy as I originally thought, and downgraded my suspicion of him.

Don't misrep me please. I said I was moving you off my probable scum list, I never said you were leaning town. You were more of a neutral. I started thinking that your posts looked more like an aggresive town player who was skeptical of peoples claims. I also re-evaluated my opinion about your "fishing". It looked less like fishing and more like trying to catch someone in a lie. I tried to go back last night and see what quotes specifically made me feel that way, but my re-read of you last night didn't look very good.

Whatever it was I saw though, I did think you were less scummy than I originally thought, and I stand by that. I don't like your recent posts very much though. Pretty much everything you've said since I made that observation has been scummy.

Those who have some experience with dana, does he always come off this scummy? I'm getting a vibe like he is trying to help, but that some of what he says just seems scummy.

I still think Toon Fighter is the best lynch. He had two game days of no votes and then a strange Slicey vote that didn't make much since. He unlurked long enough to defend himself and vote on the easy d3x wagon and has now re-lurked. Whether he is scum lurking or just lurking, he is definitely not helping town. danakillsu is at least participating enough that we can try and get a read on him. And speaking of Slicey, is he still V/LA?

[Scott Brosius]

Dana always comes off pretty scummy in my experience.

[Dragon Phoenix]

I was doing

danakillsu

in isolation just now when Chrome ate my post with my notes, and I agree about the general scumminess. I had been making a case for a scummy alignment of dana with hp [leaves] based on dana's posts, when I finally remembered that hp [leaves] was a lone anti-town player. Post 903 on the other hand very much smells town to me. I am moving him to the likely town category for now. next (I hope tonight): d3x.

[d3x]

Would you like some fries with that blatant, cowardly OMGUS?

I'd love some!

Would you like a some fries with your blatant, cowardly BandWagon Vote?

[Kast]

since I was the most opposed to a fullclaim of those asking for more info.

This is deceptive on two levels.
-First, saying you did not want a fullclaim AFTER THE FACT does not mean you were at all opposed to the claim. That is a direct lie.
-If you were the most opposed to a fullclaim

of those asking for more info

, that does not excuse that you were engaging in an extremely anti-town behavior set.

You see me saying a VI lynch is better than a no lynch. What's bad about that? There's no guarantee that someone actually is a VI unless through investigation, so lynching someone that might be scum, but won't help town anyway is better than not lynching anyone.

This is not one of my points against you. Straw man much?

You see me saying GMT is likely in this game. This isn't scummy in the first place because unless I'm Empire scum, I have just as much chance of knowing that there is a GMT if I'm town as I do if I'm scum.

You are evading the core of this point.

RC and you both were convinced that Vader was in this game as a scum PR. A townie would not know this for certain. RC flipped Jabba, a second mafia, and it is likely he could have been provided with game setup info on the other mafia team. This would explain his confidence.

Likewise, this would explain your otherwise nonsensical claim that Tarkin is a torturer on the Imperial mafia team.

And GMT does torture Leia in the first Star Wars movie with an interrogation droid, which (besides any torture Vader is involved in) is the only instance of torture in the movies.

This is false. Vader is the one who tortures Leia with the interrogation droid.
In either instance, the interrogation droid and Vader using the force are the actual effectors of the torture.
Further, there are other instances of torture scattered throughout the trilogy, ie. Jabba's Palace and the Emperor's run in with Luke Skywalker.

So maybe I was wrong about him being the only one to torture people, but that hardly makes me scum.

This is another crap-logic misrepresentation. You are not scum because you were mistaken. The point is that naming Grand Moff Tarkin is likely a scum slip revealing that you have private information. This is the second time you are slipping; the first was your joint slip with RC that you both knew Vader was present in the game as a powerful Imperial PR.

-Why did you avoid my other two points?
--Bandwagoning on a candidate you don't suspect and justifying your vote based on other players also voting that way.
--Fishing for more investigative roles.

[Slicey]

I'm having lots of site problems, so expect erratic posting from me for the time being. Apologies.

Don't see any strong case against d3x, and I've already said I think Dana is town. I really find TF scummy though. His vote against me still makes no sense IMHO. It sounds like he voted me because I correctly thought SOG was scum and he disagreed. Also lurking and then actually participating when he's called out on it. Really, he's done no scumhunting.

Vote: Toon Fighter

I'm still thinking Scott is scum BTW. Very likely he's the Empire GF. There's no way he's in Jabba's group though. Just look at most of his posts, it's just go with the flow and no scumhunting from what I've seen.

Also thinking DP is scum, his analysis posts have virtually nothing in them. Just a couple quotes here and there, a very brief summary, and then nothing. Made to look like contribution when he really isn't.

Wouldn't be surprised if Almaster is scum too, just pops in with a vote on the biggest bandwagon with no reasoning and then disappears.

[Kast]

@DP-

I had been making a case for a scummy alignment of dana with hp [leaves] based on dana's posts

Please explain this comment. Dana was dead set on lynching HP leaves and accused him of being Darth Vader (Imperial Mafia).

[Dragon Phoenix]

That's L-2. I would suggest waiting for a fullclaim from hp[leaves] before anymore votes on him. hp, go right ahead...

This one. Sounded to me like fellow scum with safe claims.

[Toon Fighter]

(I tried to post yesterday, but had problems with computer)

I understand SB's atitude against me, but there was something off in him. It seems he was pressuring and trying to quicklynch me.

Could you please point out where he is "pressuring and trying to quicklynch" you? I know I was pressuring you, although I certainly wasn't trying to quick lynch. It appears to be the only way to get you to participate.

IIt just gave me that impression after his posts in page 35 (850-ish). Why are you defending him? I didn't accuse you, only him.

Toon, when you are in a game, and a player lurks to the point of near null participation, do you think the town is justified in voting for that person in an attempt to stimulate participation? Do you think lurkers are more or less likely to be scum? If a lurker isn't scum, are they helping the town win with their lurking?

Yes, town should vote them. Lurkers are just as likely as participating players to be scum. No, they aren't really helping town, but they can be kept alive while scum is being dealt with.

I am trying to participate, and being less lurky than I was in the first days. I have explained my Slicey vote, and in my opinion, he(she?) can still be scum.

[ooba]

Hey I'm sorry I haven't posted much..

Started on a re-read yest. Got to page 10. No time after that. Expect a big post in about 12 hours time.

[LimMePls]

Lurkers are just as likely as participating players to be scum.

@Experienced Forum Players: Is this true? I would think that lurkers are more likely to be scum, since scum have an extra incentive to lurk. If they lurk they are less likely to make a slip and get caught by the town.

I ask the experienced players because I'm new to forum mafia. I have lots of experience in real life games, but lurkers aren't really a problem there. If Steve keeps going to the bathroom whenever its day time, we're gonna lynch him pretty quick.

[d3x]

Yeah, mostly Lurking is a Null tell across the board. Certain players have established meta as being Lurky-Scum, while some players have meta of participating more as Scum. Lurker Lynches are usually red herrings, imo. As my first Scum game, we were able to ride a few of them into a perfect win. It's easy to initiate a Lurker Lynch and there's usually no real push back from anyone, but sometimes they actually turn up Scum.

[Toon Fighter]

Well, in MY opinion, they are. We could do a study, and analyse previous games, in order to confirm os disprove that theory.

But I usually lurk, as scum or as town, so you can't infer my role from there. All I can say is that I am town in this game, not scum.

@Slicey: great post, managed to accuse a bunch of people in just one post. But, for you, lurk = scum. You should try and build better cases.

[danakillsu]

Would you like a some fries with your blatant, cowardly BandWagon Vote?

Now that's funny. I voted with I believe two people on the "Bandwagon", and I declared you as my top candidate before one of them voted, I think. Anyway, no matter what, it's not backed up very well, so I'm not going to take the time to find out exactly what the situation was, you're welcome to do so yourself.
@Lynch
I did misrep you a bit, although I don't see the big distinction. The point is, I found it funny how quickly you did your little headfake. Also, I'm getting very annoyed at how you just say, "oh, yeah, that was scummy too" every time I post (btw, the quotes don't mean you said exactly that, they're just to show that someone is sayng it) without actually giving any reason for it. It's like you have to keep on confirming what you said before by just saying that everything I post now is scummy. The truth about my recent posts is actually that I have less information to go on, and have to scumhunt myself instead of depending on others to do it for me. Before, there were always huge developments every day before I had even begun to scumhunt.

[danakillsu]

@all
Look, I don't like TF's double standard of lurking any more than you do, but I do have some experience with him. He's telling the truth about always lurking. I really don't see any reason to vote for him because I know his town meta, and this is it.

[d3x]

@TF- Do you have nothing to say about the Wagon you're currently riding? Any feedback {belief/disbelief} in regards to my defense? Any response to the multiple cases building against you? Any answers to the questions others are asking?

@dan-

it's not backed up very well

What's not backed up very well?

I really don't see any reason to vote for him because I know his town meta, and this is it.

I don't know about the others, but my suspicion of him has nothing to do with Lurking. Do you not find merit in my suspicions or did you just not read them? Also, your defense of TF has been noted.

[Kdub]

FC Groningen has not picked up his prod, so I will look for a replacement.

[LimMePls]

I think the participation level in this game is a bit low. That's why I've been trying to push at the lurkers.

Wouldn't be surprised if Almaster is scum too, just pops in with a vote on the biggest bandwagon with no reasoning and then disappears.

I decided to iso AlmasterGM after this statement.

@AlmasterGM You have 17 posts in a month+ long game and almost half of them are one liners.

Would you like some moar?

If it's clearly an RVS wagon, then isn't the explanation that it was random?

Wow, this game really took off in the past couple of days. My bad for not posting. I'll get something up by tomorrow.

To be fair, he ALWAYS does this. As both scum and town.

+1.

+1.

And my person favorite:

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

LOL.

I guess that's not really a one liner. I find this post interesting:

I don't see the benefits of refusing to speculate. The game is read entirely different if there are multiple scum groups. Doesn't ignoring that possibility and calling it a distraction make it more difficult to analyze interactions?

So you don't see the benefits of refusing to speculate, but then you never actually speculate, thus essentially refusing to speculate. I think it is helpful, which is why I discussed the whole Grand Moff Tarkin/torture thing with Kast. If you think speculation is helpful, would you care to share some thoughts?

And then there is your most recent post:

VI isn't usually an actual role. It just refers to someone who plays really poorly.

Kthxbye has a good case.

Vote: d3x

Do you have anything to add with your d3x vote, or just that Kthxbye made a good case, and its an easy bandwagon to get on?

Unvote: Toon Fighter
Vote: AlmasterGM
FOS: Toon Fighter

I think this is better.

[Kast]

@LMP-
-MafiaScum games tend to be much slower than RL mafia games. Large games tend to be even slower than Mini games. I'm all in favor of faster moving games, but you should realize that a majority of people on this site don't expect to need to post that quickly or frequently, particularly for Large Theme games.

==Not Game Specific Thoughts on Lurking==
Lurking is anti-town and anti-game behavior. It robs town of hearing thoughts and gaining input. It allows scum to avoid making statements that might reveal themselves. Unfortunately, it is engaged in equally by both townies and scum. It is much more about the individual player's RL situation and/or interest level in the game than about their affiliation.

The proportion of lurking scum to lurking town tends to be roughly the same as the proportion of scum to town. In the event of a mislynch, lynching from the lurker population can have the comparative benefit of not removing an actively contributing player. This benefit rarely outweighs the much higher chance of hitting scum by lynching suspicious players.

Lurker hunts can also be bad in that they allow scum to safely mislynch players who won't defend themselves and who won't reflect badly after a flip town. Pushing a lurker hunt

instead of

pursuing a scummy candidate is very scummy.

Some people prefer enforcing the LynchAllLurkers meta-norm. It hurts town's chances to win the specific game, but aims to improve overall play. I doubt getting lynched because your baby got sick or you got sent overseas to travel is going to convince your kid to be healthier or your boss to send someone else next time, so I tend to fall under the ReplaceAllLurkers camp.

@Slicey-
-Post 909 prompted a re-read of TF and I think the points are a pretty fair assessment of TF. It's definitely plausible, and I would look to TF as strongest lead on Imperial Mafia.

-I still prefer Dana as today's lynch. An additional thought is that if Dana is last remaining member of Scum (Jabba's) Mafia, his lynch could remove one NK from the game.

@Dana-
-If you are town, please spend time addressing me instead of focusing only on a player you claim to believe is scum. This is a weak tell; scum often try not to argue with confirmed or nigh-confirmed town.

-Please explain this in more depth:

I find that very townie people are joining the d3x wagon, so there may be some investigation results for them to base their votes on

Kthxbye, BV, AGM, and TF were voting for D3x. BV has shared all his investigation results publicly, so obviously he was not basing his vote on investigation results. Out of Kthxbye, AGM, and TF, which of them did you think were "very townie people"? Why?

-More use of weasel words to push forward falsehoods while leaving yourself an "out" in case you get called on them. I don't like this.

I voted with I believe two people on the "Bandwagon",

You believe wrong. Your vote is after 4 people were on the wagon.

and I declared you as my top candidate before one of them voted,

I think.

You think wrong. You distinctly stated you find D3x "somewhat scummy" but not ready to be voted.

Anyway, no matter what, it's not backed up very well, so I'm not going to take the time to find out exactly what the situation was,

Since you clearly don't remember the situation, why not look back ONE PAGE and refresh your memory?

[d3x]

@dan- Wait a minute. You're holding onto this idea that you found me 'somewhat scummy' and mentioned it previously. I looked and yes, you did mention it... in p881. The strange thing is, that's only the 2nd time you've mentioned me all game {the first time you said nothing about me being scummy}. 10 posts later, you then Voted in p891. Also in p881, you said that you weren't "really ready to vote yet". What changed between p881 and p891? Finally you said...

I find that very townie people are joining the d3x wagon, so there may be some investigation results for them to base their votes on

Aside from the potential RoleFishing here {bv has all of his investigations accounted for}, the Wagon preceding your Vote consisted of Kthx, bv, AGM, and TF. Barring bv {our all but confirmed Cop}, who on this list would you consider 'very townie'?

-preview edit-
I see that Kast just wrote a bunch of this as well. I'm at work and not in the mood to rewrite, so deal with it.

[LimMePls]

@LMP-
-MafiaScum games tend to be much slower than RL mafia games. Large games tend to be even slower than Mini games. I'm all in favor of faster moving games, but you should realize that a majority of people on this site don't expect to need to post that quickly or frequently, particularly for Large Theme games.

Fair enough. I don't have a problem with people who make 1 contributive post every few days. I do want some substance from the posts they do make though. TF, until recently, had almost 0 substance in his posts. I do think he is getting better though, although that is likely due to the pressure.

The proportion of lurking scum to lurking town tends to be roughly the same as the proportion of scum to town. In the event of a mislynch, lynching from the lurker population can have the comparative benefit of not removing an actively contributing player. This benefit rarely outweighs the much higher chance of hitting scum by lynching suspicious players.

I agree 100%. That said I think TF and AGM are both lurky AND scummy.

@Slicey-
-Post 909 prompted a re-read of TF and I think the points are a pretty fair assessment of TF. It's definitely plausible, and I would look to TF as strongest lead on Imperial Mafia.

Given this, wouldn't TF actually be a better lynch than dana? You say yourself that TF is strongest lead on Imperial Mafia. Add the benefit of removing a lurker if it is a mislynch and it seems like a pretty solid lynch to me. Is it because you think dana is last Jabba scum and his lynch will prevent 1 NK a night?