Mini 981: Descent into Chaos (Game Over)

[UncertainKitten]

@Nikanor: Not sure. at the moment I don't think you're scum, but I don't necessarily feel you exude pro town. It's just that others exude more scumminess.

@easjo: And no, I'm playing a cat. I'm using the hengeyoukai template, but really, she started as a cat. She is a Wild Mage though, which is fun. Since no one ELSE in our party seems to want to actually talk or do anything, she ends up handling the diplomacy in ways that should be terrible but work out somehow. I seriously TRY to encourage someone else to take it, then no one talks for five minutes and I'm just like "FINE".

[easjo682]

right, knew it would be something unusual, didn't think it would be that unusual though, not surprised your rping group finds you difficult, if you tried talking to them like you did to me.

[UncertainKitten]

Oh no, they love me. But then again, I generally don't have to yell at them for being stupid. Or call them out on logic fails .

I love how you concluded something I completely didn't say, as well. You do this often, or only when you're scum?

[Kenman]

Kenman's vote for VV is... a wtf moment for me. Kenman, you're still ignoring easjo. Both easjo and VV are guilty of what you're voting VV for. easjo has the bigger wagon. Thus, you should be voting for easjo. Why did you vote for VV instead?

As of now I am not ignoring easjo its just that her posts seem really insubstantial. Shes not scum hunting or doing anything really, besides arguing with UK. I could see her being scum or just a bad town player. VV on the other hand, has posted significantly more substance, but only to the effect of incriminating himself even more. Regardless of whos bandwagon is bigger, I have a more confident read on VV and will leave it where it is for the time being,

[easjo682]

As of now I am not ignoring easjo its just that her posts seem really insubstantial. Shes not scum hunting or doing anything really, besides arguing with UK.

Its a bit hard for me to ignore UK, especially when all she seems to do is yell at me and call me stupid, forgive me but I don't like being called stupid just because I see things differently.

[VasudeVa]

Difficult just about sums up what I think of UK. I think I'm making a reasonable amount of sense, even UK admits that I have a 'half-assed case' (from her perspective anyway). 'half-assed' as it may be, it has sense and I'm sticking to it.

[UncertainKitten]

See, there's that strawman again. I'm not saying you are stupid because you disagree. It's because the substance of your disagreement is TERRIBLE LOGIC. And even then, I only think your logic is stupid. No, I think you, personally, are stupid, when you ignore every VALID refutation I have for your logic. You don't even try to answer it. You just say "Wellp, I don't see any refutation now stop calling me stupid it makes me cry"

That's not going to fly. So, please, excuse me if I correctly called you out for doing something stupid, and then correctly called you stupid for ignoring the points against you and acting like they aren't there.

[UncertainKitten]

@Vasu: Haha, nice word twist. No, half assed case means "absolutely fucking useless and not scumhunting at all".

And that's nice. Too bad most other players disagree. That's probably because, you see, you aren't making sense.

No, it's worse, actually. You make perfect sense...

as scum.

[easjo682]

See, there's that strawman again. I'm not saying you are stupid because you disagree. It's because the substance of your disagreement is TERRIBLE LOGIC. And even then, I only think your logic is stupid. No, I think you, personally, are stupid, when you ignore every VALID refutation I have for your logic. You don't even try to answer it. You just say "Wellp, I don't see any refutation now stop calling me stupid it makes me cry"

That's not going to fly. So, please, excuse me if I correctly called you out for doing something stupid, and then correctly called you stupid for ignoring the points against you and acting like they aren't there.

I dont like it when you call my opinion stupid because I can't comment on it or indeed argue my point back, because calling an idea stupid gives nothing for me to go off of, which is why I made the post earlier..
here it is for your conveince

also would you stop just saying my thoughts on the matter are stupid and actually tell me why they are stupid and why you refute what I believe to be a better way? It'll be more helpful to the discussion, saying its stupid is one thing, provide the reasoning behind it, maybe at least you'll help me see how you can think organised sleep is a good thing.
I don't care if you insult me or my ideas but at least add more to why the ideas or me are stupid.

and then in the very next post of UK's she basically did a big fuck you, something that was not needed, Like I said, try and restate the points of why my logic on the sleep is super flawed and why your logic on the sleep isn't flawed, then maybe I'll be able to see where you are coming from because at the moment I don't.
My logic is perfectly sound, it just operates differently than yours

besides arguing with UK.

and you don't find UK's arguing as bad? especially after I asked nicely for her case on the sleep to be restated and asked nicely to be told how my logic and opinion on the sleep is more flawed, and she responded with what was effectively a fuck you?

[UncertainKitten]

I've stated it at least three fucking times, jo. I've quoted it at least twice. My patience IS NOT ETERNAL. In fact, it is quite short. THE INFORMATION IS THERE. I've pointed it out several times. If you can't be assed to look at it, then you deserve to be lynched on that alone.

[UncertainKitten]

Ok, I'm breaking my earlier promise and I apologize. Every time I encounter something so stupid I don't have anything nice to say, I'll step back for 5 minutes. I expect a lot of my posts will be delayed in the future.

[VasudeVa]

I've stated it at least three fucking times, jo. I've quoted it at least twice. My patience IS NOT ETERNAL. In fact, it is quite short. THE INFORMATION IS THERE. I've pointed it out several times. If you can't be assed to look at it, then you deserve to be lynched on that alone.

Yes, the logic is there. I've read it but I disagree with just as much as you disagree with mine. You are calling me(and easjo) stupid and scum for mostly dissenting because you are too thick headed to understand something called opinions. How many times have I stated this?

[easjo682]

I've stated it at least three fucking times, jo. I've quoted it at least twice. My patience IS NOT ETERNAL. In fact, it is quite short. THE INFORMATION IS THERE. I've pointed it out several times. If you can't be assed to look at it, then you deserve to be lynched on that alone.

Well I look at your posts when you respond to mine, yes from the start, but I still don't see how this sleep synchronizing is more beneficial to town than mafia, or indeed beneficial to the town at all, I asked you to restate the reasoning just incase I'd been mistaken in my reasoning, since it is obvious that there is nothing more to the synchronized sleep cycles than I already thought, I'm still happy where I'm standing and will defend it to my lynch.

[UncertainKitten]

@Vasu: Except...it's not a matter of opinion. IT'S DEMONSTRABLE FACT! Your argument is somehow this is outing power roles to the scum, yet, let me state it once again:

YOU HAVE NO LOGICAL WAY OF SHOWING HOW ORGANIZED SLEEP OUTS POWER ROLES. YOUR ARGUMENT FAILS BECAUSE IT MISSES THE POINT THAT MOST POWER ROLES DON'T REVEAL THEMSELVES AS POWER ROLES WITH THEIR ACTION!

Please note at this point I actually get reasonably polite and don't ad hom you every other word. It is THAT IMPORTANT TO ME that this is read:

As for you easjo: Let me tell you, once again, since clearly you aren't understanding, why synchronizing sleep is better:

A) Organizes town
B) While not guaranteed to catch scum, has a far better chance of doing so than not synchronizing would (granted, that chance is still small. But better than 0, as your lack of plan would be)
C) Planned sleep cycles prevent town from derping up and causing scum to wake up with a majority, though this is more relevant in later game.
D) There is a fourth reason. I'm not sure if I should say it at this time since it invalidates itself if said. Suffice it to say it has good use for catching scum not directly related to the mechanic. But there is a strong fourth reason I haven't stated before and am not stating yet for organized sleep that extrapolates from the idea of organized town.


Since we're all repeating ourselves, how about you, once again, state how NOT organizing sleep is at ALL a good idea?

[UncertainKitten]

EBWOP: Sorry, Vasu had the weird yay and boo argument that was really biased and completely irrelevant crap logic. And that was less opinion and more, once again, crap logic, hence why I feel that it was stupid.

[VasudeVa]

False. My argument was it would out who was more beneficial to kill when, not outing power roles. Scum (probably)won't kill someone who will be sleeping in next phase. It has little to do with power roles.

Point A is stupid. Organized in what? It'll organize sleep. But will it organize town to actually catching scum? (Which is, you know, the point of the game?) Everyone will get an organized sleep cycle, but organization in catching scum is a different story and how you managed to connect those two amazes me.
Point B is Makes sense. But it's direct con is mentioned above. For something that is not guaranteed to help catch scum, it gives info that WILL help scum even just a little bit. Not worth it.
Point C is agreeable. But that discussion is best left when we actually get there. I'd rather not be drowned in set-up speculation.

What UK is doing:
1. Drowning us in set-up speculation that is stalling some much needed scum hunting.
2. Not scum hunting. I don't count her attacks against anyone who attacks/disagrees with her as scum hunting.

Two scum tells right there. The vote stays.

[Me=Weird]

You know what would be really nice? If people started scum-hunting instead of discussing game mechanics. Yes it's necessary, but we're making too big a deal of it. I'm thinking I'll sleep N2, unless of course people want me to sleep at a different time. I'll probably have a case or case-like substance on easjo tomorrow.

[UncertainKitten]

@Vasu: Oh, that's nice. So, day sleep solves this, now doesn't it? Unless you are seriously going to argue that scum won't kill someone day sleeping the next phase? Please, do so, I need a good laugh.

Point 1: Organizing in one area makes organizing in other areas easier. The fact that you seem to be completely ignoring this complimentary approach utterly astounds me.
Point 2: Not guaranteed != no info at all. Your counterpoint makes no sense. I've come to expect that from you though. The fact that it gives us a better chance of catching scum than UNorganized sleep does, on it's own, makes synchronized sleep BETTER.
Point 3: Oh, glad we agree.

Too bad you once again try to discredit me in a completely hilariously wrong way. Once again! I am not attacking you because you disagree, I am attacking you BECAUSE YOU ARE ACTING IN AN ANTI TOWN AND SCUMMY MANNER.

All your posts OOZE scum. The terrible logic you use to discredit me, the false accusations of not scumhunting, the pure HYPOCRISY you exhibit in accusing me of not scumhunting, the pure HYPOCRISY of supposedly being against set up discussion but having spent just about EVERY post you've made thus far set up speculating, and without even trying to tack on scumhunting.

You are scum. It's non negotiable.

@Me=Weird: We'd prefer day sleeping since we can keep track of it easier, I believe? And, I'm not sure if you've been reading, but, we kinda HAVE been scumhunting during the supposed set up spec. Quite honestly, the two have been quite complementary. People have been taking stances that make their alignment pretty obvious.

[Pittbunny]

You know what would be really nice? If people started scum-hunting instead of discussing game mechanics. Yes it's necessary, but we're making too big a deal of it. I'm thinking I'll sleep N2, unless of course people want me to sleep at a different time. I'll probably have a case or case-like substance on easjo tomorrow.

You know what would be nice? The realization that arguing about mechanics eventually winds up as scumhunting material. The entire last page and a half, in fact, is pretty chock full of it.

Query: Rather than asking what good would X plan do, why not provide specific, rational, informed reasons why X plan would do something bad. Not just "it benefits scum more than town", but "if Y, then Z". Otherwise, get back to your scumhunting and leave the mechanics for people who are actually trying to utilize the system.


@Vasu
Organization in catching scum stems from the fact that there will be dissenters. Those dissenters, while not necessarily scum, will generate discussion. Discussion leads to scumhunting, which hopefully leads to catching scum. Additionally, vivid agreers will generate discussion. Wishywasy low-activity wagoners will generate discussion. Asking a question with the connotation that something provides absolutely no data isn't fair. I don't think you're scum yet, but the arguments you make aren't helping to do anything more than make UK blow up. Which, while fun to watch, isn't necessarily a towny kind of service.

[UncertainKitten]

Pitt has the right of it for the most part. I am, however, in disagreement about your point about arguing. While I have exploded several times at him, his arguments (and jo's) have also shown their (mistaken) view on the entire situation, and also opened them up to flailing to defend their bad logic.

I'm trying to calm down now, and I think I'm doing decently now that we got to point by point discourse, which, admittedly, I should have started in the first place.

[VasudeVa]

What false accusations of not scum hunting? You are ignoring the fact that my accusation of 'not scumhunting' stems from your ISO 1-25 which make you scum. I see faked effort to scumhunt on ISO 12(fake because you are not following up on it/not serious with the vote.). The way I see it you are more interested in making someone else look scummy(via OMG U DISAGREE U SCUM mode seen ISO 26 onwards) instead of actually looking for scumtells and catching scum.

Nice try though!

And all the setup speculation I'm doing is me disagreeing with all your propositions because I think you are scum and you are misleading town(and doing a swell job at it too).

Sooo, do we lynch UK yet?

[UncertainKitten]

@Vasu: So, you think scumhunting is something formulaic? It's not. Using "scumtells" is only going to screw you. I use intent. Your entire posting history in this thread reads as scum intent. You aren't intending to help the town, you are intending to screw up the town. And once again, you strawman me by saying I say you are scum for disagreeing. No, it's the WAY you are disagreeing. I've caught scum. You just are butthurt about it.

See, the hilarious part is, you still haven't scumhunted at ALL in your disagreements with my disagreement. So hypocrisy still stands.

Finally, as for ISO 12 or whatever, you do realize that was like, page two or three of the game, and it had barely started, right? Pitt pinged my scumdar. It was a serious vote. I've since been convinced that he has townie intent and it's a playstyle issue.

[VasudeVa]

To Post 242:
Point 1: It is logicallyfallacious to assume that.
Point 2: So, basically you are paying that info away to scum to gamble for a chance to catch scum with an unknown success rate. No thanks.

To Post 246:
Cool. I see we are already at the 'excuses' and 'this is how I play' stage. Glad to see you are breaking down as scheduled. I was worried for a minute there.

Regardless of whatever disagreement you may have with my play style(yes, I like formulas. Sue me), I do not like one bit that you just voted Pittbunny willy-nilly with a bad reason and not follow through UNTIL easjo and I started voting for you in which you suddenly went berserk mode. Which is an awesomely scummy behavioral change btw.

And I find it amazing that you conclude that I am not helping the town by disagreeing with you when you yourself agree that the plan will help scum too. I think I'm helping the town well enough by denying scum that info thanks.

That intent play style of yours won't work with your close mindedness.

[UncertainKitten]

What information is being given away again Vasu? See, this is where your argument fails. You have not DEMONSTRATED that we leak any more information that would hurt town in any way. Whatsoever.

Breaking down? That's so ridiculously stupid I have no words.

Also, what's hilarious is...I did follow through on Pitt.

So, for those that like scumtells, we can add

Blatant misrepresentation

More misrep

And finally, MORE MISREP

Oh Golly Gee guy, are you done tearing up that bale of hay?

[VasudeVa]

Wait, people are still discussing day sleep? Why day sleep? Organized Day sleep gives scum an excuse to sleep during the day so that they can keep killing at night. Scum would looove to sleep at day and you idiots discussing and agreeing with day sleep is stupid. So the only other not stupid sleep organization is night sleep, and there is your info!

What 'follow through'? You call that shitty ISO 14 following through? The next time you mentioned Pitt, scumhunt wise, was on that long stringy shitty ISO 41 of yours when you felt forced to mention him. And I don't even want to talk about how stupid and scummy ISO 41 is.