Mini 969 - Smalltown: Stardust Mafia (Game Over)

[charter]

Jack not killing RC seems the most likely to me. He wouldn't kill RC as scum since it would force us to lynch RC again and waste yet another day. Plus, when RC flips town (and he's going to) it would reflect poorly on Jack.

Honestly not sure why he chose to no kill, there was literally no way he was going to be able to explain it away, but I guess he's trying.

I don't see why people think Jack was redirected. Jack was definitely not redirected, since we had two kills, and if he was redirected, there would be one or three.

Six days to deadline, and I feel it's pretty hopeless to get a lynch in and make good use of the sensor. Obviously lynching takes precedence.

TNM/Groupthink, are you guys going to vote Jack? If so, I think you should do it sooner rather than later, since I have zero confidence that Groupthink is going to show up before deadline, so we need to start working on a backup plan (for example, Liam voting Jack, who he claims he thinks is scum, but is voting for RC when it's really clear they aren't scumbuddies).

[ReaperCharlie]

3. Jack (as scum) used his ability on you but was roleblocked.

I thought of this, but discounted it right away because then his other kill would have been blocked too. And then when you posted it, I realized that yes, it could have happened, because his cpr kill is attached to his role, while the scum kill is attached to their alignment, and if one of his scumbuddies killed someone and he used his role to kill someone, that would actually make sense. So yeah, I guess count that as an option 3.

Good find.

Actually, now that I'm thinking about that scenario even more, it somehow makes the most sense of the three options, in a weird way. Because whether or not Jack was blocked/redirect-blocked, my scumdar is exploding into a mushroom cloud.

[Jack]

Jack not killing RC seems the most likely to me. He wouldn't kill RC as scum since it would force us to lynch RC again and waste yet another day. Plus, when RC flips town (and he's going to) it would reflect poorly on Jack.

This is a multi-scum group game. Even if you believe RC is a townie, what makes you think I do?

And my kill of him would be perfectly excused, because even if he's a townie we need the day1 flip for reference.

[charter]

If RC is the Serial Killer, he's doing a bad job of avoiding suspicion on himself.

If you killed RC, it would be fine. But you didn't because there's greater benefit to you, as scum, not killing him. Obviously you couldn't kill someone else, since it would be really obvious. You could not kill, since lynching RC again, as I've already said, wastes another day and killing him makes you look bad.

You can say you think he's a SK, but it doesn't matter. You're scum, you're just saying whatever you can think of to try and save yourself.

[Jack]

If RC is the Serial Killer, he's doing a bad job of avoiding suspicion on himself.

Is this supposed to be an argument that he isn't the Serial Killer? It isn't. Why am I scum instead of the serial killer btw?

The basis of your argument is that I knew RC was town, and didn't want to look bad by killing him (instead I would try and lynch him again). But no matter what I look bad by not killing him, and if I killed him and he was scum I would look very good.

[charter]

But you're scum, so you know he isn't going to flip scum. If RC by some miracle flips SK, then you're in the exact same boat. You're still scum. You didn't kill, because it wastes another day. That is of more benefit to you than killing him.

If people reread day two, it's extremely apparent that Jack is scum. This is also the last time I'm going to respond to any of Jack's stuff, unless he comes up with some legitimate points, and not more fuel for him being scum, since this has just degenerated into a shouting contest.

[Jack]

But you're scum, so you know he isn't going to flip scum. If RC by some miracle flips SK, then you're in the exact same boat. You're still scum. You didn't kill, because it wastes another day. That is of more benefit to you than killing him.

See charter, I asked you

a) why you think I'm scum and not the SK
b) how would I, as scum, know that RC was town

You ignore that completely...

If people reread day two, it's extremely apparent that Jack is scum. This is also the last time I'm going to respond to any of Jack's stuff, unless he comes up with some legitimate points, and not more fuel for him being scum, since this has just degenerated into a shouting contest.

And complain about it being a shouting contest?

[ReaperCharlie]

Just in case anyone missed it, the deadline is 9am (site time) on June 14th. Carry on.

[Kdub]

Fine, I'll just be direct and ask Jack the question then. If you are town and Starbuck is scum, why do you think she did not simply redirect you to another player last night?

I agree with Charlie in post 395. My past experience with Starbuck tells me that she would not lie about V/LA, and definitely wouldn't fake RL issues.

3. Jack (as scum) used his ability on you but was roleblocked.

This is unlikely. It makes no sense for Magna to have targeted Jack because Jack claimed he was killing Charlie, who Magna was voting for and wanted dead. The only possible explanation I could think of is that Magna thought Jack was the SK and Charlie was mafia or vice versa, but I don't see anything in his posts that would indicate he was thinking that.

[Jack]

Fine, I'll just be direct and ask Jack the question then. If you are town and Starbuck is scum, why do you think she did not simply redirect you to another player last night?

Redirecting me would mean that I would know for sure that she was scum. Redirecting magna to block me both prevents him from blocking one of the mafia (or giving the absorber roleblocking) and has the possibility that I would accuse him of blocking me and he would deny it, and people would trust that she'd been absent. Not a particularly good plan, but we aren't talking about good plans, just bad and worse.

I agree with Charlie in post 395. My past experience with Starbuck tells me that she would not lie about V/LA, and definitely wouldn't fake RL issues.

She's lied about not having time for this game: msutils.net

And partners can often submit abilities--I don't know ooba's mod history on this issue though.

[havingfitz]

HAHAHAHA!
You too?! F@#$ing A, guys! what's up with stupidity today?

I realize asking if both were targetted what the flavor would be was being forgetful of the rules (as my thought bodyguarding could be absorbed) but there is no need to be a prick about it. I still find you scummy and will be happy to join any wagon that grows on you in the future. For suspicions and for being a prick.

[Starbuck]

Page 13 & 14

I love how so many people are quick to jump to the conclusion of me scumslipping. Most typical actions (doctor, roleblocker, etc) have one target. Mine has two.

Pretty much instead of using the word "action" in Post 301, I should have used the word "targets" since I have more than one target for my action when I use it.

On Jack

I find it to be pretty convenient that Jack just seems to come up with only 3 scenarios of what possibly happened last night, but in all of them, he can't be at fault for anything the occurred.

I'm pretty sure that Jack is lying scum.

It's telling that starbuck said nothing about the "no role could have interfered with jack's kill" comments (and that they were made).

What is this supposed to mean? Just because I didn't comment on something that you wanted me to comment on makes me scum now?

If you wanted my opinion about something, why don't you just say it instead of beating around the bush?


He gives a scum list in Post 308 which all consists of all the people who have challenged him in some way. Are you going to do some actual scumhunting anytime soon Jack? Or will your scumlist just always have the people that annoy you?

Ask Zang about the 2nd part. I figured you as scum when I saw the kill missed.

Why does Zang need to verify something you said? Whether he networked with you or not, the rest of us cannot see your QT. So you making him answer questions directed towards you does not still well with me.

Reaper is scum, so SB saving him means they are scumbuddies, and thus not SK. The mafia would not redirect my kill to the person they killed.

You are making a lot of assumptions with this statement.

The best plan for town is to lynch starbuck and have me vig reaper. Now, I would like someone (preferably someone voting me) to argue that it is better to lynch me because it is dangerous to give the mafia another kill.

It is better to lynch you because it gives the mafia one less person on their team.

Reaper, some advice for you if you get a scum role again. If this game had more good active townies, they would literally laughing out loud at how blatantly bad your scummy arguments are.

Like you should be talking.

Yesterday I said "RC IS OBVSCUM", named a scum team with proposed partners, guaranteed that I would target RC and warned everyone against interfering. There is no way a townie vig does not target RC after saying that.

WIFOM of the grandest proportion.

On Zang

Zang, can you answer my question, why did you choose to network with Jack?

I networked him because he's probably the only one (besides maybe the lurkers) who doesn't think I'm obvscum.

This is fishy.

If you were town, you would network someone else who you feel is town.
If you were scum, your scum buddy.

This reasoning is enough for me to say that Jack and Zang are scumbuddies, and they probably don't even need that separate QT since they have the mafia one.

On GroupThink

Are you going to post more than one-liners?

On totallynotmafia

Who would you have targeted with your ability if you were around to submit?

I'm still trying to catch up, but once I am done, I'll go back and answer this one for you.

Just wanted to acknowledge that I know you asked this.

[charter]

Also, if Starbuck is SK, redirecting a roleblock to Jack was incredibly stupid, now that I actual think about doing it (and not dismissing it based off it's incredibly unlikelihood).

Jack clearly announced who he was going to kill, and it wasn't Starbuck, so once again, unless this was some master plan of hers to fake the V/LA in order to save one person (who isn't herself) from dying on night one, just seems extremely dumb. I mean, if she is the SK, and Jack does flip town (hypothetical scenario, Jack isn't town) then it confirms her as a liar, and her game is over.

I think it's Jack/Zang/Liam. I know I was suspicious of Fitz before, but Liam's recent 'Jack and RC are scumbuddies' is just a crackpot theory that looks like he's trying to throw in a town lynch after the Jackscum lynch inevitably happens. Note how he's voting RC as well, I'd bet anything he "forgets" to change it to Jack to ensure a lynch. Plus, he didn't bodyguard the tracker.

[CallMeLiam]

TNM: No I don't want to vote Starbuck. Jack or RC.

Charter, I think RC is scum, that hasn't changed since D1. Jack refusing to kill him is damning enough for me to think he's scum too. Add these together and it looks like they're bussing each other hard which works just fine because they both knew RC would survive the first death and then shift attention elsewhere on D2. Of couse they could be scum and SK but that doesn't detract from both of them needing to die if we wanna win the game.

It's all well and good thinking Jack left RC alive to try and snag a mislynch, but I don't think RC would be a mislynch.

With a couple of days to go I still don't need to move over to ensure a lynch just yet, but I'll do it tomorrow if no real plan for utilising the sensor comes through.

[havingfitz]

OK...more ramblings while I get the chance...and if these comments have been made by others already, pardon.

We know Jack did not use his CPR on RC. Why?
A) He was roleblocked (could be mafia, sk, or town)
B) He's lying (ie scum)

SB says she did not redirect (ie redirect the RB'er to affect Jack as we know Jack was not redirected).
A) She's telling the truth (could be mafia, sk, or town)
B) She's lying (ie scum...as I do not think town or SK SB would have blocked Jack)

I definitely think one of them is lying so either Jack or SB are scum. What would be the objective of Jack or SB scum in preventing an RC kill? To prevent his death. I.e....regardless of who is lying between Jack and SB, I think RC is scum.

This is based on the assumption that Magna would not have RB'd Jack on his own seeing as Magna was voting RC on D1.

So of the three...I think the highest probabilty of scum is RC. However, since I think one of SB and Jack are scum as well...and the odds lean slightly towards it being Jack IMO, as I said before...I think the best play today is to lynch SB (apologies if you are town) as we should not risk scumSB redirecting a possible bodyguard on the sensor. With SB living past today, even if she is town, a potential scenario where CML is scum and just avoids guarding GT would throw things into confusion. At least with SB out of the picture...we can come closer to confirming Jack's alignment (though not completely) and avoid multiple scum plays to cause confusion. With no SB, neither Jack nor CML could fail to perform these actions without implicating themselves. If Jack follows through on RC tonight, Great! If not...they are both scum. If SB flips town...RC and Jack are both scum (IMO). If the 'guarded' sensor dies tonight, CML is scum.

If all this plays out...and crossing fingers the sensor is town...we could be in a decent position to make some pro-town progress.

Thoughts?

BTW...next time I'll have a chance to log in will be ~0330 e.s.t tomorrow morning.

Goodnight.

[Zang]

Starbuck-

Pretty much instead of using the word "action" in Post 301, I should have used the word "targets" since I have more than one target for my action when I use it.

Not quite. This was your post-

I also didn't use any of my actions as I wasn't around to submit.

Targets would make no sence in place of actions.

You are not scum because you put actions instead of targets, you are scum because you put actions instead of action.

I love how so many people are quick to jump to the conclusion of me scumslipping. Most typical actions (doctor, roleblocker, etc) have one target. Mine has two.

This is what we have been saying

This is fishy. 

If you were town, you would network someone else who you feel is town. 
If you were scum, your scum buddy. 

This reasoning is enough for me to say that Jack and Zang are scumbuddies, and they probably don't even need that separate QT since they have the mafia one.

I do feel he is town but that is not why I networked him. 

And if I was scum, why wouldn't I use my ability?


Also, besides the scumslip, did you respond to any of the accusations against you? Or instead of trying to prove that you are town, you are trying to make jack look like scum?
 

[Starbuck]

Zang, you really just pulled apart that post to so that you could talk what I said and make it mean what you wanted it to mean, which is the definition of MISREPRESENTATION.

Targets would make no sence in place of actions.

You are not scum because you put actions instead of targets, you are scum because you put actions instead of action.

I completely understand why everyone is freaking out about that post. Why are you purposely going out of your way to make it look like that I don't?

Obviously, if I had used the word "targets" then the grammar of that sentence WOULD be different. I figured that WOULD be understood and I wouldn't have to break it down Elmo style.

I'm not happy with how quick you are to misrepresent me.


You are really sticking your head out on a limb for Jack. Why do you feel that he isn't scum?

I do feel he is town but that is not why I networked him.

And if I was scum, why wouldn't I use my ability?

According to Post 324, you said you networked Jack because...

Jacks quickhammer has nothing to do with why I networked him.

I networked him because he's probably the only one (besides maybe the lurkers) who doesn't think I'm obvscum.

Absolutely NOTHING there about whether or not you feel that he's protown.

Also, where did I state that you wouldn't use your ability? That's NOT the issue here.


Then in Post 332, you answer Kdub's question of...

Do you think the fact that Jack doesn't suspect you somehow makes him more likely to be town? I'm interested to see what case you come up with against Starbuck considering she's barely posted in the game so far.

No, although I do think he might be.

Me thinking that he was town had little relation to me voting for him.

You DON'T FIRMLY STATE that you believe Jack to be town. You say he "might be". There's a big difference between IS and MAYBE.

Also, besides the scumslip, did you respond to any of the accusations against you? Or instead of trying to prove that you are town, you are trying to make jack look like scum?

Did you not read the big bold letters at the top of that post which stated "Page 13 & 14"? To me, that would show that I wasn't fully caught up yet.

But since you are so quick to jump down my throat, I guess you would miss that, wouldn't you?


Now, will you let me finishing catching up or are you going to continue to be a distraction from that, since I just debunked your whole post?

[Zang]

Zang, you really just pulled apart that post to so that you could talk what I said and make it mean what you wanted it to mean, which is the definition of MISREPRESENTATION.

I am not misrepresenting you, if anything I'm misinterpreting what you are saying.

I completely understand why everyone is freaking out about that post. Why are you purposely going out of your way to make it look like that I don't?

Because based on your post, I wasn't sure you did understand

Obviously, if I had used the word "targets" then the grammar of that sentence WOULD be different. I figured that WOULD be understood and I wouldn't have to break it down Elmo style.

No, it didn't just make no sence gramatically, it made no sence at all. As in I see no way for you to reword that sentence with targets instead of actions with it still making the same point.

You are really sticking your head out on a limb for Jack. Why do you feel that he isn't scum?

He isn't scum because you are and because I see no reason why he would not use his CPR ability.

Also, where did I state that you wouldn't use your ability?

right here-

This reasoning is enough for me to say that Jack and Zang are scumbuddies,

and they probably don't even need that separate QT since they have the mafia one.

Absolutely NOTHING there about whether or not you feel that he's protown.

That's because I wasn't asked why he is protown, I was asked why I networked him.

Did you not read the big bold letters at the top of that post which stated "Page 13 & 14"? To me, that would show that I wasn't fully caught up yet.

Well you wrote the heading the same was as the sections "on Jack" and "on Zang" so I didn't think it was a heading for the post but for that section of the post

[Starbuck]

Since you can't seem to answer it.....Again, why do you feel that Jack isn't scum? An answer of "He isn't because you are" is not an answer. Also, I didn't ask you whether or not you felt he used his ability.

[Zang]

Also, I didn't ask you whether or not you felt he used his ability

But it is one of the reasons why I thought he was town which you did ask.

[ReaperCharlie]

Ok, I'm gonna be straight up honest. I am getting scumdar readings off the charts from both Zang AND Starbuck right now. Obviously, I think Jack is scum, and he's obviously my lynch choice because I don't want him to be able to kill anyone tonight (i.e. ME). I thought I would have been dead last night, but I'm not, so I figured today was the only day I had left, unless Jack was lynched.

I'm pretty annoyed that the Jack lynch has stalled, and pretty annoyed that nobody is calling out

havingfitz

and

CallMeLiam

for purposely stalling that wagon. They have both intimated that they think Jack is scum, but for some reason they both getting cold feet when voting for him. Why??

---

observe:

First,

havingfitz

has said that he thinks it's more likely that Jack is scum than Starbuck, but still wants to lynch Starbuck:

I think one of SB and Jack are scum as well...and the odds lean slightly towards it being Jack IMO

BUT for some reason...

I think the best play today is to lynch SB

...WTF.


And then,

CallMeLiam

has said that that out of Jack and Starbuck, he is sure that Jack is the one lying.

No I don't want to vote Starbuck. Jack or RC.

and out of those, he picks ME. which is fine, but look at the reason.

vote: RC

since you're so needy for me to place my vote

.

WTF? and on top of that, he then says:

I'd like to see Zang, RC and anyone else off the lynch because they're my top two suspects.

wait, hold the phone.

so basically, you don't think I'm gonna be the lynch for today anyway, but you want me off the lynch, whoever it is?

this begs two questions:

1. Why do you want me off the lynch? Because you think I'm scummy enough to vote for... but not scummy enough that everyone else is gonna vote for me? and secondly,

2. If you don't think I'll be today's lynch, then WHY ARE YOU VOTING FOR ME?
why aren't you voting for a candidate who you think has a likely chance of ACTUALLY getting lynched?

...WTF.



Bonus!: Don't even get me started on Groupthink. His entire posting history for the last WEEK consists only of:

June 1: "Didn't use ability last night."
June 2: "Using ability tonight."
June 5: "Horrible hangover"

and he hasn't posted AT ALL in the 4 days since, and NOBODY CARES. Last I checked, HANGOVERS DONT LAST 4 DAYS.

[ReaperCharlie]

I'll be back later with more, btw.

Ugh! This town is SOOOO stupid and they can't even see what's RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR EYES.

[GroupThink]

I would post but I have...stomach ulcers.... that and I don't remember any of you so I have to read everything again. OOORRRR I could get a current votecount and pick someone randomly off the list, it doesn't make me any difference; I'm still suffering from my SEVEN-DAY HANGOVAAAAA!!!

[charter]

I give up. This game is pointless with this extreme lurkage. It'd be cool if the mafia and SK could kill the lurkers to make this an actual game and try and win by skill, but it's understandable if you just go for the easy win.

[Kdub]

I can understand the logic behind lynching Starbuck in that if she is scum, we might lose our sensor tonight to the mafia kill. However, if Jack is scum and we don't lynch him, the mafia will get an extra kill tonight

in addition

to their regular kill, which could put us into a scenario tomorrow where there are 6 players alive, of which 3 are mafia. That is an auto-loss for the town, regardless of whether the SK is still alive or not. Aside from that risk, I think Jack is just flat-out more likely to be lying here. Starbuck is not the type of player to lie about personal issues and V/LA, and despite Jack's insistence that she was lying about not having time for this game, it seems reasonable to me that she focused on catching up entirely in another game first before doing so in this game.

The Jack-Charlie scum pairing idea is not crazy, but probably on the less likely side. The crazy idea is lynching anyone other than Jack or Starbuck today. Even if we thought Charlie was most likely to be scum, putting off a 1v1 (in which both players have night actions that could hurt the town in the hands of scum) until tomorrow is dumb because it could potentially be lylo.

The only players in the game who I can still motivate are Zang and havingfitz. Motivating Zang is a pretty safe move regardless of his alignment since networking twice either gives scum-Zang more chances to slip up or gives town-Zang more chances to get information on other players. I'll leave it up to havingfitz as to whether he wants to reveal any learned bility last night that I could motivate. If not, I'll probably just pick one of them randomly.

I have no idea what to make of GroupThink's posting, just as long as he knows to use his ability tonight. I think the current group of people voting Jack is a good group to keep together since we represent Jack's top suspects. I think Zang, havingfitz, and either Liam or TNM should stay off the lynch since they would be decent scum candidates if Jack is scum. I don't know if we could organize that in time given GroupThink's lurking though.