Mini 985:Madness at Night: Game over

[SpyreX]

I could swing behind a llama if it comes to it - however, I like to kill issues like this before they blossom out of control or its a welp, can't do anything because wrong choices mean losing the game kinda thing.

[hiphop]

You guys. Why is it you decide to chatter when I am not here? Well.. my wall will just be longer.

And you never answer my question, did you know crypto is v/la?

I answered that.

No you didn't. Show me. Stop evading and just answer it.

1. "lets do this" as in lets figure out which one we are lynching... hence the question to each cc.

Oh, please. This is such bs(and yes my brothers' intials are BS, so I substitute his name for this) and you know it. Here is the original quote,

well... we lynch a cop cc here, right? maybe a bad day just turned into a good one for town. lets do this.

You go from asking the town on what to do, (which pretty much makes number 3 fail. Because truly you are asking the town what to do. Hence follow the town. ) to saying you pretty much agree that we should lynch the cop. And finally, "let's do this", which pretty much leads to everybody lynch the cop. Yet Podium does not make the first move. Oh.. wait... he is wanting the town to make the first move. Question for everybody but Podium- Does "Let's do this" insinuate that he is undecided on who to lynch, or pretty rock solid that he is indeed lynching the cop? Can somebody else explain this to me, because for once Podium is not making any sense at all?

Oh for number 2, yea it refers to the other game. Part of your scum meta.

In fact

unvote
vote Podium

Sando- ok I can take that. But I am still not lying. Also your second paragraph makes sense too. I did not notice you were voting Spyrex.

Nopo- sorry I missed it. Was reading to fast and forgot to address it.

I do not know if he is a townie. I thought that maybe he would be more likely townie, because he stated that you were indeed a townie. Not just a simple I think this guy is town, but more of a confirmation. And to me that seemed like a genuine town move, because he is willing to lock someone in as town. However things have changed, It looks that he did not confirm that you were a townie, but more of a we'll see. Which of course moves his town tell into a null tell.

As for the explaination of my assertion that nopo wanted me to address- I do not know if you are town. Nor will I ever know unless Charter(the gunsmith) investigates you, to see if you have a gun or not. Millers do not have guns right? So from my point of view, if there is no cop(no counter claim) then no miller either. Because then what is the good to having a miller?

The above of course answers you question that you had to Podium on why you should be investigated. As you probably can tell now, he wasn't referring to the cop, but to the gunsmithh.

And Podium, I really do not care whether the question was referring to you, you were agreeing with me, so technically nopo was asking me a question through you.

As for why I didn't counterclaim miller, that's stupid. I'm not going to out myself after a claim that's scummy all on it's own and doesn't need any help. And plus, I've been in a game with a gunsmith and miller (though the setup was pretty horrible). You don't see how countering after death miller and cop are different situations?

Except for the fact that most people found it un-scummy. Once this was evident, I would find it more likely that you would conterclaim a miller instead of a cop. I will explain this farther down.

I didn't vote because I have no idea what the votecount is, didn't want to quickhammer.

Just like Podium's statement, I find this bs. 2 reasons

1.If you are absolutely sure of yourself that someone is scum, which in this case you are, then wouldn't you want to lynch scum? Unless of course you don't want the town to get in an uproar, that you are mislynching a townie?

2. Even after I call you out on it, you still don't vote.

Now I am more fishy of the SSBF claim, mostly because I am bias, but Charter is really spitting out scum tells. I am just not sure of what to do at this moment.

ssbf SSBF that is what I am asking. And sorry if I rushed your analysis, but I live in real time, so that is what i kind of expect. I find SSBF's explanation to be protown mainly because if he were town, wouldn't a townie have those reasons? If I am wrong please take one of his 4 reasons(two on the top and two on the bottom) in the post I just linked and tell me why a townie would not do it. Or you can just tell me any reason why a cop wouldn't claim there?

By the way SSBF- please do not bring mini 955 in, you were at L-1 and you gave your farewell speech that you would try to do better in the next game(as in you already threw in the towel) yet you did not make any step toward actually claiming what you really were.

I am still unsure. I gave ssbf points on his explanation, but I also gave charter points on his counter claim. Both have given scumtells, yet both look promising as town too. I believe they are both real. Will explain at the bottom of this post.

Ssbf analysis There is one mis-fact. On the part that you said it took Almaster 5 days to catch up, you will find that most of that time was moving day. (Or how short is your memory?) So hence his catching up post became from the next day(thread was closed) until he could make it. So you can't find him scummy like that at all. Notice how you didn't post for 4 days of that time either. Are you scummy for that?

Also I am not liking the fact that people keep grouping me with scum-Podium.

wicked I meant buddying in the form of following. So yea pretty sure he was attempting to buddy.

1. Why do you think he is town? I didn't realize you thought nopoint was town. I don't think SpyreX's stance on the miller claim makes hardly any sense, but I didn't know/remember what your stance was.
2. Yeah. I bs'd those reasons. But seriously, I found SpyreX more suspicious when I switched my vote.
3. All I've learned from the game in which I lost to a miller is that I need to be more wary of scum claiming miller. I don't look at him in a scummy light because he claimed miller nor do I think he looks like town for claiming miller. I am not going to judge nopoint based off of his claim, but based off of his behavior.

1. Pretty sure you have been skimming my posts. Why do i write these things if nobody is going to read them. Wicked you will find my stance here when the miller first claimed. READ IT.
2. Skipping- will answer it after 3.
3.Yea pretty sure Spyrex said the same thing here
So back to 2. If Spyrex has the same view that as you, yet you find that view to be still scummy, does not that make you scummy too? So are you saying you are scum?

Also Wicked there is a difference between that game's miller and our game's miller. The biggest difference is that in that game the claimed miller waited until after the cop investigated and got a guilty before claiming. In our game the cop has not investigated nopo, and better not, we now have a saved investigation, which can be used somewhere else. Hence pro-town. And that alone is big.

(kind of liked the Russell Hantz avatar better)

Spyrex disagree completely. Charter has been one of the lurkers in this group, therefore anti-town, and SSBF's claim was 2 days before the original stated deadline. Pretty pro-town timing to me. Or are you saying that he should claim the day of deadline? Want a scramble?

however, I like to kill issues like this before they blossom out of control or its a welp.

So you want to take the chance of killing a pr, before it can be used?

Ok now for why I think there is a Miller, cop, and, gunsmith at this juncture.

First off read gunsmith Notice how it say that cops have a gun. I am looking at cops go with a gunsmith. Look at it this way. When a cop investigates he gets a result. The cop cannot be absolutely sure of that result because of a godfather, being sane, miller, etc. What does a gunsmith have to make sure his results are not accurate. Well there could be a cop, or a vig. That is it. So yes I can believe if there is a gunsmith that there is indeed a cop too.

Take a look at this scenario- cop and gunsmith do not claim day one. Gunsmith investigates cop some night beyond. Gunsmith comes out and says he has a gun. Cop says I am a cop. Who would believe him? Looks a lot like someone to fake claim. Right? Cop gets lynched. a mislynch for scum. Puttng scum in better position to win. I mean look at what is happening now. You guys are arguing that one of them is scum. Surely the way it sounds most of you want one of them lynched. Hence a mis-lynch for town. My point is proven. Guys are you not going to give them a chance at all to use their roles? Are you going to take the chance of lynching a powerrole day 1? Are you scum? Seriously. Stop arguing that you want to lynch a PR. Unless of course you are scum, then by all means keep arguing and put your vote down. Prove to all the townies that you are indeed scum.

My explanation as to why there if there is a cop, and gunsmith then there is a good chance there might be a miller- Did anyone read my link on claiming miller? Clearly a miller is put into the game to help create a mislynch. Hence to make the sides more equal. Unless you guys have a better reason. Cop investigates miller. No explanation necessary. Mislynch. If there are both invetigative roles in this game, wouldn't that put favor towards the town winning? Wouldn't a miller balance it out some. Couple that with, the gunsmith mislynching the cop, I would say there is a good chance for scum to win. Wouldn't you? Of course we could be so tilted one way, that there could be a vig too. Another mislynch?

Nopo, a little more chatter.

[SpyreX]

Lord I'm getting tired but part of it is worth looking at:

Best-case town scenario could absolutely cripple a scumteam with a cop and a gunsmith on both sides. The counterbalance, as seen in the miller claim, isn't even enough to change the balance since a miller that knows they are a miller SHOULD be claiming thus freeing up the investigative role.

And yes, cops, vigs and sometimes even trackers and watchers can have guns. However, from a true balance prospective its not a function of "what happens if the gunsmith investigates the cop before he claims" but "what happens if both the gunsmith and the cop investigate scum?". Its the inverse of counting on cross-kills for balance - it just doesn't work.

I'll argue with you more about charter = anti-town luker and SSBF's early cop claim = tech town move. Because those are both F--

[podium123456]

And you never answer my question, did you know crypto is v/la?

I answered that.

No you didn't. Show me. Stop evading and just answer it.

I already answered one question from you twice, without a problem. Having to answer another question for you twice makes me think you aren't really reading my posts, even though you have stated that you consider me a huge worry.

Thats fishy.

1. "lets do this" as in lets figure out which one we are lynching... hence the question to each cc.

Oh, please. This is such bs and you know it.
Here is the original quote,

well... we lynch a cop cc here, right? maybe a bad day just turned into a good one for town. lets do this.

You go from asking the town on what to do, (which pretty much makes number 3 fail. Because truly you are asking the town what to do. Hence follow the town. ) to saying you pretty much agree that we should lynch the cop. And finally, "let's do this", which pretty much leads to everybody lynch the cop. Yet Podium does not make the first move. Oh.. wait... he is wanting the town to make the first move. Question for everybody but Podium- Does "Let's do this" insinuate that he is undecided on who to lynch, or pretty rock solid that he is indeed lynching the cop? Can somebody else explain this to me, because for once Podium is not making any sense at all?

Sigh. I dont even feel like explaining this cause its such a weaksauce case.

1. My first impulse was that we lynch a cc, but i asked "right?" to make sure. I'm not familiar with the proper move in this situation... and i didnt get the memo where we arent supposed to ask other players opinions about how to proceed.

2. EVEN IF i was 100% determined to lynch a cc, then what dont you understand about me saying 'lets do this' and then trying to determine which one to lynch without placing a vote? If i am unsure of which one i want to lynch (which i am), then whats wrong with me scumhunting before i place a vote?

Oh for number 2, yea it refers to the other game. Part of your scum meta.

Ok, so when i was scum i followed the town. This game i haven't. Snore.

[Sando]

So wait, the idea is that 2 strong investigative roles is somehow offset by a miller, a role that will invariably D1 claim, throwing out a lot of the downside? Added to the fact that one of those strong investigative roles can actually confirm/deny the miller claim? Nope, not happening, that's insanely strong for town.

I think the cop claim makes more sense, but that SSBF is also acting more scummy.

And barring any way to confirm any of these claims overnight with their 'investigates', which I can't see, I don't think leaving this till tomorrow is a great idea.

When is new deadline btw?

[Wickedestjr]

However, I think from the wording of charters post that he sees the miller/cop combo as well, since he was 'suspicious of nopos claim', making the lack of vote even further worrying. I'm not sure why a gunsmith would cc a cop, but not a miller? Having a miller with a gunsmith seems just as unlikely as having a cop with a gunsmith? Why wait till now?

This is a good point. Regardless of how charter responds to this, I am still suspicious of the gunsmith claim. If the death miller is telling the truth, then the purpose of them being in the game is to make it impossible for town to figure out their allignment. There doesn't seem to be anything preventing the gunsmith from figuring out nopoint's allignment.

podium123456:

First thing that helped distinguish him is that he manage to make a decent point against crypto, basically saying he asked almost everyone to explained there town/scum list yet place a vote on me without explaination. His analysis on June 14, 2010 is good, I will admit, but it also felt force, since it was basicall a respond to hiphop, who told him to take a stance on someone.

I will say that he is one of the better players in the game, thought. His scum hunting technique is somewhat unique and works.

He has also commited almost no scum tells in the game so far. Overall, I'm giving him a considerable town read.

Can you elaborate on the bolded portion?

I'm not done catching up yet. I had much less time than I expected. I will try my best to finish catching up tomorrow. My current thoughts after reading up to this post are the following:

*Llama looks like town. Probably one of my strongest town reads in the game. I would prefer if we didn't lynch him.
*It is unlikely that SSBF and charter are both scum.
*SSBF's summary of his claim seems odd:

I'm a Town Cop. In addition to being able to vote and voice my opinion, every Night, I have the ability to investigate a person of my choice.

The word 'opinion' seems like a strange word to use in this role pm. Mine doesn't use that word. Charter, how about your role pm?


*Having both a death miller and gunsmith in the game seems like an odd combination. I doubt both are in the game.
*Having both a cop and a gunsmith in the game isn't extremely unusual. I wouldn't be surprised if a mini game had two investigative roles.
*If charter and nopoint are telling the truth, then SSBF's claim seems a bit odd. With rare roles like death miller and gunsmith in the game, cop doesn't seem to fit well.
*Charter's role is probably the only way to figure out if nopoint is town or not. Therefore, I think charter should investigate nopoint, and I also think a protective role should protect charter. That way we will most likely learn if nopoint is on our side or not. I think this was said by a few other players already, but I also think that it will probably be a good idea for SSBF to investigate charter.

[Hayker]

Please stop discussion of the wording of the role pm's. Thank you.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I think this was said by a few other players already, but I also think that it will probably be a good idea for SSBF to investigate charter.

I looked through Page 9 to that post and I have yet to see anyone else support me investigating charter. I may have missed some quotes, but who else supported me investigating charter?

@hiphop: Just want to say thanks for clarifying that up. But do you still want me to answer that question? I have an answer, but it may not be the one you want.

As for the mis-fact on my analysis, that is a good point. I have not neglected to realize that this was during the move. I was about to get on to Charter for that, but he posted contents shortly after the move was completed. However, the reason why I got on to AlmasterGM when I did is because unlike others (charter did as well, but explaination above explains why I didn't get on to him), AlmasterGM actually promised contents. If I remember correctly, we finished moving on June 15, 2010. AlmasterGM did not post contents until June 18, 2010. Yes he was posting in other games that's ongoing on June 16 and June 17. This is why I felt it was potentially scummy.

@AlmasterGM: Why did you post in ongoing games on June 16 and June 17, yet completely neglected this game during those times?

When is new deadline btw?

It's on June 28th, 2010 I believe.

I will say that he is one of the better players in the game, thought. His scum hunting technique is somewhat unique and works.

Can you elaborate on the bolded portion?

podium123456 tends to put in a lot of good contents in his posts. His post is relatively organized as well, with quotes on the top and overall thoughts on the bottom, showing that he's willing to both scum hunt and defend himself at the same time, which is kind of unique as well. podium123456 has only flipped town once, but there is a chance that he is town again. If he is town again, he could be a potentially valueable player later on.

[AlmasterGM]

Because I was more behind in this game than I was in those.

[Hayker]

When is new deadline btw?

Deadline is the 30th.

[nopointinactingup]

I do not know if he is a townie. I thought that maybe he would be more likely townie, because he stated that you were indeed a townie. Not just a simple I think this guy is town, but more of a confirmation. And to me that seemed like a genuine town move, because he is willing to lock someone in as town. However things have changed, It looks that he did not confirm that you were a townie, but more of a we'll see. Which of course moves his town tell into a null tell.

As for the explaination of my assertion that nopo wanted me to address- I do not know if you are town. Nor will I ever know unless Charter(the gunsmith) investigates you, to see if you have a gun or not. Millers do not have guns right? So from my point of view, if there is no cop(no counter claim) then no miller either. Because then what is the good to having a miller?

I'm not just a miller, I'm a death miller ( guilty even in death ), thus my role can be manipulative even without the cop. But I agree with your overall analysis. I think it is better to decide whether we should lynch a claimed power role the next day instead of today. That way, we can minimize our risk and get a better read on them ( even if one happens to get NK-ed it's better than a myslynch ). Though I still don't think SSBF and Charter should have claimed so fast if they are town ..

Unvote

*Charter's role is probably the only way to figure out if nopoint is town or not. Therefore, I think charter should investigate nopoint, and I also think a protective role should protect charter. That way we will most likely learn if nopoint is on our side or not. I think this was said by a few other players already, but I also think that it will probably be a good idea for SSBF to investigate charter.

Given there are strong investigative roles in this set-up already, I doubt there will be a protective role as well. That's why I'm furious with Charter's claim, which he thought was a counterclaim but in fact doesn't say anything at all. Charter could and should have laid low and investigated further before claiming. If he gets NK today, which would probably be the case, I would never be proven town



The above of course answers you question that you had to Podium on why you should be investigated. As you probably can tell now, he wasn't referring to the cop, but to the gunsmithh.

And Podium, I really do not care whether the question was referring to you, you were agreeing with me, so technically nopo was asking me a question through you.

As for why I didn't counterclaim miller, that's stupid. I'm not going to out myself after a claim that's scummy all on it's own and doesn't need any help. And plus, I've been in a game with a gunsmith and miller (though the setup was pretty horrible). You don't see how countering after death miller and cop are different situations?

Except for the fact that most people found it un-scummy. Once this was evident, I would find it more likely that you would conterclaim a miller instead of a cop. I will explain this farther down.

I didn't vote because I have no idea what the votecount is, didn't want to quickhammer.

Just like Podium's statement, I find this bs. 2 reasons

1.If you are absolutely sure of yourself that someone is scum, which in this case you are, then wouldn't you want to lynch scum? Unless of course you don't want the town to get in an uproar, that you are mislynching a townie?

2. Even after I call you out on it, you still don't vote.

Now I am more fishy of the SSBF claim, mostly because I am bias, but Charter is really spitting out scum tells. I am just not sure of what to do at this moment.

ssbf SSBF that is what I am asking. And sorry if I rushed your analysis, but I live in real time, so that is what i kind of expect. I find SSBF's explanation to be protown mainly because if he were town, wouldn't a townie have those reasons? If I am wrong please take one of his 4 reasons(two on the top and two on the bottom) in the post I just linked and tell me why a townie would not do it. Or you can just tell me any reason why a cop wouldn't claim there?

By the way SSBF- please do not bring mini 955 in, you were at L-1 and you gave your farewell speech that you would try to do better in the next game(as in you already threw in the towel) yet you did not make any step toward actually claiming what you really were.

I am still unsure. I gave ssbf points on his explanation, but I also gave charter points on his counter claim. Both have given scumtells, yet both look promising as town too. I believe they are both real. Will explain at the bottom of this post.

Ssbf analysis There is one mis-fact. On the part that you said it took Almaster 5 days to catch up, you will find that most of that time was moving day. (Or how short is your memory?) So hence his catching up post became from the next day(thread was closed) until he could make it. So you can't find him scummy like that at all. Notice how you didn't post for 4 days of that time either. Are you scummy for that?

Also I am not liking the fact that people keep grouping me with scum-Podium.

wicked I meant buddying in the form of following. So yea pretty sure he was attempting to buddy.

1. Why do you think he is town? I didn't realize you thought nopoint was town. I don't think SpyreX's stance on the miller claim makes hardly any sense, but I didn't know/remember what your stance was.
2. Yeah. I bs'd those reasons. But seriously, I found SpyreX more suspicious when I switched my vote.
3. All I've learned from the game in which I lost to a miller is that I need to be more wary of scum claiming miller. I don't look at him in a scummy light because he claimed miller nor do I think he looks like town for claiming miller. I am not going to judge nopoint based off of his claim, but based off of his behavior.

1. Pretty sure you have been skimming my posts. Why do i write these things if nobody is going to read them. Wicked you will find my stance here when the miller first claimed. READ IT.
2. Skipping- will answer it after 3.
3.Yea pretty sure Spyrex said the same thing here
So back to 2. If Spyrex has the same view that as you, yet you find that view to be still scummy, does not that make you scummy too? So are you saying you are scum?

Also Wicked there is a difference between that game's miller and our game's miller. The biggest difference is that in that game the claimed miller waited until after the cop investigated and got a guilty before claiming. In our game the cop has not investigated nopo, and better not, we now have a saved investigation, which can be used somewhere else. Hence pro-town. And that alone is big.

(kind of liked the Russell Hantz avatar better)

Spyrex disagree completely. Charter has been one of the lurkers in this group, therefore anti-town, and SSBF's claim was 2 days before the original stated deadline. Pretty pro-town timing to me. Or are you saying that he should claim the day of deadline? Want a scramble?

however, I like to kill issues like this before they blossom out of control or its a welp.

So you want to take the chance of killing a pr, before it can be used?

Ok now for why I think there is a Miller, cop, and, gunsmith at this juncture.

First off read gunsmith Notice how it say that cops have a gun. I am looking at cops go with a gunsmith. Look at it this way. When a cop investigates he gets a result. The cop cannot be absolutely sure of that result because of a godfather, being sane, miller, etc. What does a gunsmith have to make sure his results are not accurate. Well there could be a cop, or a vig. That is it. So yes I can believe if there is a gunsmith that there is indeed a cop too.

Take a look at this scenario- cop and gunsmith do not claim day one. Gunsmith investigates cop some night beyond. Gunsmith comes out and says he has a gun. Cop says I am a cop. Who would believe him? Looks a lot like someone to fake claim. Right? Cop gets lynched. a mislynch for scum. Puttng scum in better position to win. I mean look at what is happening now. You guys are arguing that one of them is scum. Surely the way it sounds most of you want one of them lynched. Hence a mis-lynch for town. My point is proven. Guys are you not going to give them a chance at all to use their roles? Are you going to take the chance of lynching a powerrole day 1? Are you scum? Seriously. Stop arguing that you want to lynch a PR. Unless of course you are scum, then by all means keep arguing and put your vote down. Prove to all the townies that you are indeed scum.

My explanation as to why there if there is a cop, and gunsmith then there is a good chance there might be a miller- Did anyone read my link on claiming miller? Clearly a miller is put into the game to help create a mislynch. Hence to make the sides more equal. Unless you guys have a better reason. Cop investigates miller. No explanation necessary. Mislynch. If there are both invetigative roles in this game, wouldn't that put favor towards the town winning? Wouldn't a miller balance it out some. Couple that with, the gunsmith mislynching the cop, I would say there is a good chance for scum to win. Wouldn't you? Of course we could be so tilted one way, that there could be a vig too. Another mislynch?

Nopo, a little more chatter.[/quote]

[nopointinactingup]

I do not know if he is a townie. I thought that maybe he would be more likely townie, because he stated that you were indeed a townie. Not just a simple I think this guy is town, but more of a confirmation. And to me that seemed like a genuine town move, because he is willing to lock someone in as town. However things have changed, It looks that he did not confirm that you were a townie, but more of a we'll see. Which of course moves his town tell into a null tell.

As for the explaination of my assertion that nopo wanted me to address- I do not know if you are town. Nor will I ever know unless Charter(the gunsmith) investigates you, to see if you have a gun or not. Millers do not have guns right? So from my point of view, if there is no cop(no counter claim) then no miller either. Because then what is the good to having a miller?

I'm not just a miller, I'm a death miller ( guilty even in death ), thus my role can be manipulative even without the cop. But I agree with your overall analysis. I think it is better to decide whether we should lynch a claimed power role the next day instead of today. That way, we can minimize our risk and get a better read on them ( even if one happens to get NK-ed it's better than a myslynch ). Though I still don't think SSBF and Charter should have claimed so fast if they are town ..

Unvote

*Charter's role is probably the only way to figure out if nopoint is town or not. Therefore, I think charter should investigate nopoint, and I also think a protective role should protect charter. That way we will most likely learn if nopoint is on our side or not. I think this was said by a few other players already, but I also think that it will probably be a good idea for SSBF to investigate charter.

Given there are strong investigative roles in this set-up already, I doubt there will be a protective role as well. That's why I'm furious with Charter's claim, which he thought was a counterclaim but in fact doesn't say anything at all. Charter could and should have laid low and investigated further before claiming. If he gets NK today, which would probably be the case, I would never be proven town

[/quote]

[AlmasterGM]

HEY EVERYONE - Llama hasn't posted in over 5 days.

Mmmm, I love the smell of "trying to hide and let the wagon derail itself in mountains of game theory."

[hiphop]

Best-case town scenario could absolutely cripple a scumteam with a cop and a gunsmith on both sides. The counterbalance, as seen in the miller claim, isn't even enough to change the balance since a miller that knows they are a miller SHOULD be claiming thus freeing up the investigative role.

And yes, cops, vigs and sometimes even trackers and watchers can have guns. However, from a true balance prospective its not a function of "what happens if the gunsmith investigates the cop before he claims" but "what happens if both the gunsmith and the cop investigate scum?". Its the inverse of counting on cross-kills for balance - it just doesn't work.

My point is proven. Hey guys got a great idea, let's lynch a PR before they can use their roles. Spyrex, what would happen if say you do lynch SSBF, and he does turns up town? Would you then push a lynch for Charter, if he isn't nk'd? Perhaps what I said is actually true. Think about it.

Podium Ok, I missed it, somehow. Maybe it was because you put number 2 under another quote, and I thought it pertained to that one. Either way you answered it, so I will forget it.

1. My first impulse was that we lynch a cc, but i asked "right?" to make sure. I'm not familiar with the proper move in this situation... and i didnt get the memo where we arent supposed to ask other players opinions about how to proceed.

2. EVEN IF i was 100% determined to lynch a cc, then what dont you understand about me saying 'lets do this' and then trying to determine which one to lynch without placing a vote? If i am unsure of which one i want to lynch (which i am), then whats wrong with me scumhunting before i place a vote?

1. Funny, who were you asking? Certaintly didn't listen to me. Must have aimed the question at people who ...SURPRISE... want to lynch the cop. Therefore he only had one goal- lynching the claimed cop. Anyone else see this? Yet, still no vote.

As for number 2

Although i would have preferred to let the original person make a post before you asked again.

Let's try this again.

Question for everybody but Podium- Does "Let's do this" insinuate that he is undecided on who to lynch, or pretty rock solid that he is indeed lynching the cop? Can somebody else explain this to me, because for once Podium is not making any sense at all?

And I kind of want an answer. Why did everyone ignore this?

fact- "let's do this" Aiming to lynch the cop.

Ok, so when i was scum i followed the town. This game i haven't. Snore.

Wrong. It is not about getting on every wagon, but being there when the lynch is happening. Which clearly you are aiming for. Hence following the town.

So wait, the idea is that 2 strong investigative roles is somehow offset by a miller, a role that will invariably D1 claim, throwing out a lot of the downside?

Did I say that?

My explanation as to why there if there is a cop, and gunsmith then there is a good chance there might be a miller.

Nope.

Sando- If there

is

a cop and a gunsmith, would you expect the miller to be legimate? Notice the if. I never said anything about if there is a miller there are 2 investigative roles, but if there are 2 investigative roles, then we most likely have a miller.

The word 'opinion' seems like a strange word to use in this role pm. Mine doesn't use that word. Charter, how about your role pm?

Please stop discussion of the wording of the role pm's. Thank you.

Thank you so much for getting the mod riled up on the wording of the pms. I was saving that for day 2.


Also this isn't dark red like our mod promised. I smell an imposter.

Mod Edit: My apologies, the board change makes it difficult...will edit the rules to fit my new mod colour.

I also think that it will probably be a good idea for SSBF to investigate charter.

I don't. If Charter dies, then his nightchoice is wasted. SSBF investigate anyone who will not be nk'd by scum, sk, or even the vig. I trust you will make the right decision. A confirmation would be nice.

nopo- please put you vote back on someone. Or at the very least give us who you are suspicious of.

HEY EVERYONE - Llama hasn't posted in over 5 days.

Mmmm, I love the smell of "trying to hide and let the wagon derail itself in mountains of game theory."

HEY EVERYONE - Llama has been v/la since last Sunday, and he will be v/la til next Sunday.

Mmmm, Smells like " preying on the weak."

fos almaster

Mod I will like to make a petition that I get more votes

Mod Edit: I would love to comply, but unfortunately that influences the game too much as moderator.

[SpyreX]

My point is proven. Hey guys got a great idea, let's lynch a PR before they can use their roles. Spyrex, what would happen if say you do lynch SSBF, and he does turns up town? Would you then push a lynch for Charter, if he isn't nk'd? Perhaps what I said is actually true. Think about it.

What?

I'm saying it absolutely doesn't add up. And yes, that means if SSBF is town then charter by nature goes up a notch.

However, thats not happening since SSBF isn't going to be town.

[podium123456]

1. My first impulse was that we lynch a cc, but i asked "right?" to make sure. I'm not familiar with the proper move in this situation... and i didnt get the memo where we arent supposed to ask other players opinions about how to proceed.

1. Funny, who were you asking? Certaintly didn't listen to me. Must have aimed the question at people who ...SURPRISE... want to lynch the cop.

Misrepresentation... you are implying that i should have taken your advice on what to do with a gunsmith and cop claiming, when you had only given thoughts regarding a cop claiming.

edit: I think this issue stems from what i explain below.

Therefore he only had one goal- lynching the claimed cop. Anyone else see this? Yet, still no vote.

Question for everybody but Podium- Does "Let's do this" insinuate that he is undecided on who to lynch, or pretty rock solid that he is indeed lynching the cop? Can somebody else explain this to me, because for once Podium is not making any sense at all? And I kind of want an answer. Why did everyone ignore this?

1.fact- "let's do this" Aiming to lynch the cop.

1. Aiming to lynch

a

cop

CC

.

After reading the bold and wondering why you would say that, i think i see what the problem is. When i said 'we lynch a cop cc here, right'... i was calling the gunsmith a cop as well... cause its a flavor cop. I think you took it to mean 'we lynch the town cop here, right... lets do this', and then i asked each of them questions... which wouldnt make sense if that's how you interpreted it.

Does that clear it up?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

So wait, the idea is that 2 strong investigative roles is somehow offset by a miller, a role that will invariably D1 claim, throwing out a lot of the downside? Added to the fact that one of those strong investigative roles can actually confirm/deny the miller claim? Nope, not happening, that's insanely strong for town.

If we were to add other power roles, then I could see your point. However, let's assume that those are the only three town roles that aren't Vanilla Townies. Do you still think that two investigative roles, one Millar role, and the rest being Vanilla Townies still give town a massive advantage? Without any other power roles?

Because I was more behind in this game than I was in those.

I can't really call this a good excuse. I read your last post before the forum move and the first post you've made after the forum move. Within those times, only thirty-one or so posts were made between both posts I've mentioned. That isn't much to catch-up on from my perspective. Thirty-one posts shouldn't have taken two days since the forum re-opened to make a decent-sized post that looks like to be done within a couple hours at longest.

HEY EVERYONE - Llama hasn't posted in over 5 days.

Mmmm, I love the smell of "trying to hide and let the wagon derail itself in mountains of game theory."

This post is scummy. I'm actually surprised that people actually gave a free pass on your "Oh, I was more behind in this game then others." excuse, yet you're going after llamaeatataco for not being able to post due to V/LA.

[Sando]

Ok hiphop, I thought you meant that because of the miller, the 2 PRs were more likely. You're saying 2 PRs (non-fake) make the miller more likely? Yeah that makes sense.

2 investigative roles is retardedly good, yes SSBF. For reference, I've only played 1 game with more than 1 investigative role in it as town, and Spyrex modded it I believe (PYP). There were also more players in that game, and the investigative roles still dominated the game and the scum never stood a chance. And that was a tracker/gunsmith combo, cop/gunsmith would be more broken I feel.

Unvote, Vote: SSBF

I'm going to trust the scum-read on SSBF over the more legit claim I think here. I'm of the opinion that Llama is floundering town, I don't think he's a good lynch, and having this cop/gunsmith dominate 2 days doesn't seem like a good idea. Will only vote Llama for a deadline lynch.

That is L-2

[Wickedestjr]

Ok... Where's the question there? Can you at least see why I might be confused, you're quoting statements, not questions. Questions end with question marks (?), to get it you hold shift, then press the / key...

Just because some of my points don't have question marks beside them doesn't mean you should just ignore them. ???

In answer the the statement about trying to defend almaster or attacking hiphop, I was trying to point out a problem why Hiphops reasoning was illogical, and trying to generate discussion.

Okay, well it seemed like a pretty pointless question.

In answer to your second statement about questioning hiphop about not being suspicious, where did I ever say that I didn't think almaster found hiphop suspicious.

You didn't actually say that, but you questioned crypto for thinking otherwise here:

He made an observation about hiphop and then voted hiphop. I assumed the two items were connected as opposed to bizarrely disconnected.

Why would it be a bizarre disconnect? Not everything scum do is scummy, not everything town do is townie. Why does finding someone obnoxious mean that you find them scummy? Do you normally find obnoxious people are scummy in your games?

???

Really? Really?

A cop so not-subtly says he's got a guilty. KK pre-empts the guilty by claiming miller - which is then, essentially, confirmed by the cop.

Now, if KK isn't the guilty he had that scum gets lynched AND there's room to lynch the miller claim. Net result being 2 dead scum. It was ballsy, but it paid off.

I still don't get it. Are you saying the difference between this game and that game is that he was investigated in that game? How does that make his play so inspired.


@nopoint, do you know if you would be seen as having a gun if the gunsmith investigated you? Can you ask the mod?

[nopointinactingup]

Right now I think we should do No-Lynch because it can give a better chance of verifying the power roles the next day. I know I know ppl will be No-Lynch is anti-town and stuff but I do think in this particular situation, it would do us good.

@Mod: Do Town Millers have gun?

Mod Edit: I'm unable to answer that question.

[crypto]

Hi, I'll be catching up ASAP.

[AlmasterGM]

I forgot llama was V/LA. Nevermind. If you want to complain about me taking an extra day or two to post, go for it, I really don't care. Real life exists and I didn't feel like sitting down and reading at that particular moment. There is absolutely nothing scummy about that.

[SpyreX]

I still don't get it. Are you saying the difference between this game and that game is that he was investigated in that game? How does that make his play so inspired.

It was a gamble. A huge gamble that paid off because he was the one who got investigated and did it in such a way that the investigation helped strengthen his claim.

It was awesome because it fit exactly what town should do and all clicked.

This isn't that. This is exactly what town should do because he is town.

[podium123456]

ok well, by my count llama has 4 votes, and ssbf has 3... and we have 3 days to deadline.

i have no idea what the best thing to do is. ive become more open to the possibility of 2 investigating roles in the same game. it doesnt make sense to have gunsmith and death miller in same game. charters claim/tone sounds believable... ssbf and nopoints seem shaky. with only 11 people would we have death miller, gunsmith, cop, and (assuming) a protective role? along with all the scum? thats lots of prs.

if

ssbf and charter are telling the truth, then one will die tonight. if we tell the protective role to protect charter, and have charter investigate nopoint... then maf will kill SSBF.

...bah you know what, i could sit here all night and try to figure this out and still not come up with a solid move... it seems that no matter what we do, we are always going to have certain roles with a big question mark on them for the rest of the game... we're basically not going to be able to trust any info we get 100% unless we lynch cop/gunsmith and one of them flips scum. which sucks.

am i right? or am i confused? we wont be able to trust

either

investigation unless one of them is lynched and flips scum. although... wait a minute... maf will HAVE to kill one or both of them eventually. after they flip town, all their previous investigations will be useful. so let them both ride until maf kills them, perhaps? we will have some leverage over the night kills that way... it forces maf to kill a cop, or they can risk an investigation occurring.

gah this is tough. lets say they are both telling truth... worst case scenario is we protect charter tonight, ssbf dies, and we find out if nopoint is real tomorrow. if ssbf is telling truth, and charter isnt, ssbf dies tonight and charter fakes on nopoint tomorrow. if charter is telling truth, and ssbf isnt, neither die tonight and we get questionable info on nopoint tomorrow.

..see... all this effort and still no solid direction.

sigh.

ok.

no, not ok. each time i start to suggest a plan of action i have second thoughts. like this: if ssbf is lying, then nopoint probably is too... and based on ssbf's play last game i could see him faking town cop even after his partner faked death miller, so lets lynch ssbf. BUT would a gunsmith be the ONLY investigating role included in this game? doesnt seem likely that with only 11 people we only have a gunsmith to help us.

ok, im not going to keep writing trying to figure this out. maybe something in this flow of consciousness will help someone else find a solid way to progress. maybe not... i know it hasnt really helped me. (and yes i have deleted some text out of 'walloftext' courtesy)

if someone were to make me decide what to do right now, i would suggest we let all 3 prs live and lynch a scum suspect, and take it from there. i suggest sando, but would also support a crypto lynch.

that's my brain.

my gut says lynch ssbf.

[llamaeatataco]

I'm back but I don't have time to post anything substantial at the moment. No time to say anything other than the cop claim was silly and the gunsmith claim even worse. Anyway, I'd rather not claim but I'd also rather not lynch ssbf today. We lose absolutely nothing by lynching him d2 or d3 and we have everything to gain if he is legit cop. I'll be back in seven hours, and I'll claim then if you guys want me to.